Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:56 AM - Re: Grove Landing Gear (Michel Gordillo)
2. 03:57 AM - Re: Grove Landing Gear (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
3. 05:04 AM - Re: Grove Landing Gear /The other side (Larry Huntley)
4. 06:27 AM - Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process (Clifford Begnaud)
5. 07:54 AM - Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns (Lynn Matteson)
6. 08:42 AM - Paint (jareds)
7. 09:10 AM - Re: Paint (Don Pearsall)
8. 10:17 AM - Re: Paint (jareds)
9. 10:44 AM - Re: Measuring speed. (Michel Verheughe)
10. 10:54 AM - Re: Paint (Michel Verheughe)
11. 11:32 AM - Re: Paint (flier)
12. 12:44 PM - Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns (John King)
13. 12:49 PM - Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns (Lowell Fitt)
14. 01:58 PM - Tail spring (Napier, Mark)
15. 02:01 PM - Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns (Lynn Matteson)
16. 03:46 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (Ceashman@aol.com)
17. 04:06 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (Flier)
18. 04:16 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (jareds)
19. 05:00 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (Ceashman@aol.com)
20. 05:22 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (Ceashman@aol.com)
21. 06:39 PM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (Larry Huntley)
22. 07:18 PM - Flapperon help? (KITFOXPILOT@att.net)
23. 07:40 PM - Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns (Lowell Fitt)
24. 07:58 PM - Re: Flapperon help? (John King)
25. 08:27 PM - Re: Paint (kurt schrader)
26. 08:49 PM - Re: Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grove Landing Gear |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel Gordillo" <michelgordillo@telefonica.net>
Go for it, Jimmie.
Nice support from them, full satisfaction.
Michel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmie Blackwell" <jablackwell@ev1.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Grove Landing Gear
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell"
<jablackwell@ev1.net>
>
> I am considering ordering Grove main gear for my Model IV. There has been
a lot of positive feedback on the Grove gear, but I just wonder has there
been anyone that has tried the Grove gear and changed back to the bungee
gear.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jimmie
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Grove Landing Gear |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 10/11/04 2:57:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
michelgordillo@telefonica.net writes:
<< > I am considering ordering Grove main gear for my Model IV. There has
been
a lot of positive feedback on the Grove gear, but I just wonder has there
been anyone that has tried the Grove gear and changed back to the bungee
gear.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jimmie >>
Jimmie,
Also, I'm pretty sure that Robbie Grove will stand behind his gear as
long as you own it. I "think" there was a situation where he straightened a bent
gear for a customer as no cost and it was the customers fault not the gear.
Look at it this way, the Grove gear might be the only item on the plane
with a life time warranty. Check with Robbie on this.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grove Landing Gear /The other side |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" <asq1@adelphia.net>
Hi Folks,
I have heard a lot of good things about the Grove gear,both quality and
service wise. I have flown a model 4 w/ the gear and found it to handle very
well.
Having said that;I have flown at least a dozen different taildraggers over
the last 35 yrs ,some of them for a lot of hrs,and have never flown a plane
that handles as well on the ground as my 4-1200 Soob Kitfox,w/ standard "out
of the box" gear. If one is having trouble w/ the standard gear,it might be
worth checking the toe-in ,toe-out of the gear.Mine is pretty straight and
will track straight down the runway w/ a very minimal input from the rudder.
If you have a problem w/ weight the solid gear are heavier,so take that
into account. I weight quite a bit more than the "average"170# pilot. My
wife and I put our bird pretty close to gross,so I don't need more weight. I
have flown the standard gear for over 400 hrs now and am perfectly satisfied
w/ it.
Not trying to rain on anyone's parade.Just stating facts as I see them.
Again ,I think the Grove gear is a fine product. If you think that is
what you prefer,you should be flying it.
Regards,
Larry Huntley,Kitfox
4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Grove Landing Gear
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
<clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Anyone that would go from a spring gear back to a tubular gear should see
a psychiatrist. Clint
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Kurt,
I am really enjoying your reporting on the VG tests. I want to add them to
our plane but have not done so yet for reasons I will explain below.
For me, the primary reason for owning a Kitfox is for "off airport" ops and
general short field stuff. So anything I do to the airplane should allow me
land and takeoff shorter, get to the short field faster, haul more stuff to
the short field or do these things with less risk of damage or injury.
Having a lower stall speed would in theory allow you to land and takeoff
shorter. But there may be some practical limitations imposed by your
airplane. So consider the following:
During your flight testing, have you done many short field, 3 point
landings? If so, have you noticed that you can land the plane "tailwheel
first" with ease without the VG's installed? If you are able to do so,
consider what would happen if VG's allowed the plane to stall at a higher
angle of attack.
On our Kitfox, when I do a full stall, 3 point landing, the tailwheel
touches down first while the mains are still at least 1 foot above the
ground (maybe more). The plane is configured with 600 x 6 tires and a Maule
8" pneumatic tailwheel. If I add VG's and increase the angle of attack at
the stall, with or without a change to the IAS, the mains will likely be
18"-24" above ground at the stall. And this is doing full stall landings
with power at idle, imagine what happens when I do it with power!
This is one of the reasons that Alaska bush pilots install extended landing
gear. It allows the plane to stall in a "3 point" attitude without the
tailwheel making such violent contact with ground. Also consider that these
bush pilots don't even consider it a short field landing unless it's done
with lots of power, with the plane landing at a very high angle. As you can
imagine, if you are landing on the tailwheel first, it won't be long before
damage is done to the tail end of the plane.
I plan to change to 8.50 X 6 tires, and install the small homebuilders
special tailwheel. This will give the tailwheel a little more room. But I
suspect that I will still be able to land tailwheel first.
I have talked with numerous people about this issue, and while the kitfox is
a great airplane, there are some design flaws that keep it from achieving
it's full potential as a bush plane. After all, the wing on the model 5 was
really designed for the model 4 at a gross weight of 1050 lbs. We are asking
it to do bush work at 1550 lbs, that is 57% more weight than the plane for
which the wing was designed!!!!!!
Ideally, for bush flying, the model 5 needs a higher lift wing, the wing
needs to be set at a higher angle relative to the fuselage and it could use
a little longer landing gear (among other things).
Despite these shortcomings, I still love our kitfox and will likely add Vs.
for the safety factor. If they soften the stall and prevent it from dropping
a wing in a deep stall, then that would be worthwhile because I so often fly
the plane right on the edge of stall. Especially when doing short field ops.
Best Regards,
Cliff Begnaud
Kitfox 5, Lycoming 0-235
Erie, CO
Message 5
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| Subject: | Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I never got a reply to my recent question, so I'll post it again....(it
probably slipped through the cracks with all the VG talk recently).
>
> I was just looking at a later assembly manual (Aug. '03) for the
> Classic IV, and it tells you to "apply structural adhesive to the end
> rib flanges...", etc., when installing the flap horn, while the
> original doesn't mention the application of the structural adhesive
> during this step....what did you folks do? Thinking about it now (after
> I had installed mine without any adhesive), I realize that there might
> be a "dissimilar metals in contact" problem here...whaddaya think?
> Lynn
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
Jared
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Jared,
You will probably get lots of answers, but I just wanted to tell you that
Skystar painted a clear gloss coat over their Polytone in order to get a
good shine to the paint. I do not remember the brand of paint, but they did
mention that it was from Europe and fairly expensive. I never saw any
cracking on their paint jobs.
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jareds
Subject: Kitfox-List: Paint
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
Jared
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Don,
I'm hoping to get lots of answers. Hopefully consistant and not just
conjectures.
Just hoping for a combination of compatible options including the
inexpensive options.
As don smythe says, it's built to be a workhorse, not a show plane!
I just want to wet sand what i have and throw another layer of white on
with a compatible clear.
Hopefully from the friendly local paint store!
Don Pearsall wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
>
>Jared,
>You will probably get lots of answers, but I just wanted to tell you that
>Skystar painted a clear gloss coat over their Polytone in order to get a
>good shine to the paint. I do not remember the brand of paint, but they did
>mention that it was from Europe and fairly expensive. I never saw any
>cracking on their paint jobs.
>
>Don Pearsall
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jareds
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Paint
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
>
>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
>keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
>
>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
>the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
>I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
>Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
>
>Jared
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Measuring speed. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Brian Peck wrote:
> Also, when the airspeed is changing rapidly, such as
> during a stall break, the update rate on the GPS may not be fast enough
> to capture the speed at the right time
You are absolutely right, Brian. But I am not Kurt, a man who has a lifetime as
a professional pilot and who is now using all his knowledge to break down his
new baby into accurate figures.
My quest was much simpler, I simply wanted to know if my relatively high stall
speed was due to a misreading from maybe a slightly bent pitot tube. I measured
the speed when landing because I was sure that at the windsock altitude, the
wind was nil. I checked the indicated speed vs. the GPS ground speed when
flaring, i.e. high angle of incidence. That's all. As soon as the plane stalled
and the wheels were on the ground, any reading would had been misleading.
In any case, I am aware that the most important is to know the relative stall
speed, i.e. what is indicated on my instrument, however it is calibrated. The
absolute speed, or true airspeed, is only a matter of secondary interest.
As it turned out, the GPS reading was pretty close to the indicated one and I
don't need to investigate any further. Right now, I am enjoying very much
flying with my son as we train navigation and radio communication. When we are
done with that, we will maybe train a bit with different flaps setting,
something we haven't done yet.
BTW, this last week-end has been gorgeous in south Norway. A high pressure gave
us fantastic autumnal conditions, no wind, excellent visibility, great nature
in autumn colours, smooth air ... and we went flying both days, in formation
with a Rans. Life can't be better!
Cheers,
Michel
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
jareds wrote:
> I'm hoping to get lots of answers.
... all right, buddy! You asked for it!!! :-)
I have never painted a plane and know absolutely nothing about it. But, being
used to the harsh environment yachts suffer (they are never hangared) I'd like
to ask: Have you considered frequent and good waxing? My humble opinion is that
it should keep the acid rain a minor problem.
Anyway, what kind of pilot are you to leave your nice lady out in the acid
rain? Aren't you ashamed, man? (just kidding! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
What type of paint do you have on the plane? If it's
PolyFiber, have you considered calling either them or
Norm Douthit at NormAir?
--- Original Message ---
From: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Paint
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds
<jareds@verizon.net>
>
>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white
paint on my fox. I
>keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
>
>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT
it may be years down
>the road and by then it will be ready for
refabricing.
>I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light
coat of clear on it?
>Have any of you gone down this road or have
suggestions on the process?
>
>Jared
>
>
>_-
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Lynn,
I am not 100% sure just what parts you are describing. If it is the
metal end rib riveted to the flaperon before the horn end pieces are
attached, then it should also have structural adhesive applied. Make
sure you scuff up both surfaces before applying the adhesive to assure
a good bonding surface. The end rib flange is usually powder coated, so
I do not think the adhesive was do ton dissimilar metals.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>I never got a reply to my recent question, so I'll post it again....(it
>probably slipped through the cracks with all the VG talk recently).
>
>
>
>>I was just looking at a later assembly manual (Aug. '03) for the
>>Classic IV, and it tells you to "apply structural adhesive to the end
>>rib flanges...", etc., when installing the flap horn, while the
>>original doesn't mention the application of the structural adhesive
>>during this step....what did you folks do? Thinking about it now (after
>>I had installed mine without any adhesive), I realize that there might
>>be a "dissimilar metals in contact" problem here...whaddaya think?
>>Lynn
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Lynn,
Sorry for the non answer earlier. I did give it some thought and my
manual - March 03 - also didn't mention the adhesive.
I recall a couple of posts describing a looseness in the riveted connection
after time. Maybe it was reports like this to the factory that prompted a
change in the assembly. The only disadvantage in using the adhesive might
be if disassembly is desired at a future date. I would think that heating
the adhesive might soften it enough that it would come apart after drilling
out the rivets.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I never got a reply to my recent question, so I'll post it again....(it
> probably slipped through the cracks with all the VG talk recently).
>
> >
> > I was just looking at a later assembly manual (Aug. '03) for the
> > Classic IV, and it tells you to "apply structural adhesive to the end
> > rib flanges...", etc., when installing the flap horn, while the
> > original doesn't mention the application of the structural adhesive
> > during this step....what did you folks do? Thinking about it now (after
> > I had installed mine without any adhesive), I realize that there might
> > be a "dissimilar metals in contact" problem here...whaddaya think?
> > Lynn
>
>
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Napier, Mark" <Mark.Napier@sciatl.com>
FYI,
I just got in a tail spring made to John Perry's drawing.
It is 1-1/4" wide by .291 thick heat treated 5140 steel. This is to replace
the spring on my KF III and it looks like I won't have to dig out that bolt
that is bonded to the airframe. Woo-Hoo!
Contact:
Atlas Spring and Axle Co,, Inc
4200 Irving
Wichita, KS 67209
800-362-3173
Ask for RON, he has John's drawing on file. You just need the one leaf as
it is very stiff.
Also note: please ask him to make sure the rear hole (larger hole in the end
that is square) is closely centered in the spring. Mine is not but is OK
since I have enlarge the hole in the Matco tail wheel bracket to match. If
you are keeping that !#%@#$ Maul tail wheel that's another story. Anyone
wants to buy my old tail wheel let me know.
Best part: The turnaround time to cut, machine, bend, *and* heat-treat was
only two days!
FWIW,
Mark Napier
- - - - - - - Appended by Scientific-Atlanta, Inc. - - - - - - -
This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential,
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are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or
any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I guess I misspoke myself when I said flaperon horns....I meant to say
flaperon end ribs. In the Aug. '03 revision, they say to use structural
adhesive...in the Mar '03, per Lowell, they don't mention the adhesive,
and they don't mention it in the original Sept. '92 version manual that
came with my kit. I was consulting the later version of the manual to
see what changes have been brought about, and maybe that's getting me
in trouble. My flaperon end ribs are now riveted in, as are the horns.
I used no adhesive, per the original manual. I've been contemplating
drilling out all 17 rivets...10 for the end ribs, and the 4 for the
flap horn, and the 3 for the retainer ring....and putting it all back
together using structural adhesive for the end rib/flaperon connection,
but this seems like destructive work. Maybe I can just drill out the 10
rivets that hold the rib to the flap, slide some structural adhesive in
the gap and close it up...yeah, that seems like a good plan.
Lynn
On Monday, October 11, 2004, at 03:44 PM, John King wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
>
> Lynn,
>
> I am not 100% sure just what parts you are describing. If it is the
> metal end rib riveted to the flaperon before the horn end pieces are
> attached, then it should also have structural adhesive applied. Make
> sure you scuff up both surfaces before applying the adhesive to assure
> a good bonding surface. The end rib flange is usually powder coated,
> so
> I do not think the adhesive was do ton dissimilar metals.
>
> --
> John King
> Warrenton, VA
>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> I never got a reply to my recent question, so I'll post it
>> again....(it
>> probably slipped through the cracks with all the VG talk recently).
>>
>>
>>
>>> I was just looking at a later assembly manual (Aug. '03) for the
>>> Classic IV, and it tells you to "apply structural adhesive to the end
>>> rib flanges...", etc., when installing the flap horn, while the
>>> original doesn't mention the application of the structural adhesive
>>> during this step....what did you folks do? Thinking about it now
>>> (after
>>> I had installed mine without any adhesive), I realize that there
>>> might
>>> be a "dissimilar metals in contact" problem here...whaddaya think?
>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
>Jared
Hi Jared.
Let me know if what type of paint you have on the airplane now. If you don't
know the name of the paint or the type of paint (lacquer type or enamel type)
Try a little MEK on a dark rag like a scrap of black T shirt. Wipe a little
spot (not too visible) and if it softens the paint and you get white paint on
the rag then it is Lacquer type. (could be Polytone) if it doesn't soften and
the rag does not get white then it is enamel type. (could be Aerothane).
Whether lacquer or enamel type, both will be influenced by acid rain.
Especially if the pigment is not well protected with clear.
If the paint system is of the enamel type you could sand it down with P600 to
P800 grit wet and spray a coat and a half of enamel type clear. This will
greatly protect against acid rain.
I work for a paint company, Akzo Nobel. I sprayed my Classic IV with a
product called Sikkens Autocryl and after wet sanding I sprayed a product named
Autoclear III. Make sure you use Elast-O-Actif, this is an elastofier that does
not leach out of the paint. I added 50% of the flex additive to the paint before
adding hardener and reducers.
If the paint that you have on the airplane is of the lacquer type (Polytone)
do not spray an enamel clear coat. It will probable peel off.
Note: before sanding. Wash the surface down with a grey scotch brite pad and
plenty of baking soda. This will neutralize any acidity that is impregnated
the surface (usually causing craters).
Greetings. Eric, Atlanta
Message 17
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| Subject: | Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Flier" <flier@sbcglobal.net>
Isn't Aerothane a two-part polyurethane while Polytone is similar to enamel
(single part), but it's not enamel?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Ceashman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Paint - Need to clear coat
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
>Jared
Hi Jared.
Let me know if what type of paint you have on the airplane now. If you don't
know the name of the paint or the type of paint (lacquer type or enamel
type)
Try a little MEK on a dark rag like a scrap of black T shirt. Wipe a little
spot (not too visible) and if it softens the paint and you get white paint
on
the rag then it is Lacquer type. (could be Polytone) if it doesn't soften
and
the rag does not get white then it is enamel type. (could be Aerothane).
Whether lacquer or enamel type, both will be influenced by acid rain.
Especially if the pigment is not well protected with clear.
If the paint system is of the enamel type you could sand it down with P600
to
P800 grit wet and spray a coat and a half of enamel type clear. This will
greatly protect against acid rain.
I work for a paint company, Akzo Nobel. I sprayed my Classic IV with a
product called Sikkens Autocryl and after wet sanding I sprayed a product
named
Autoclear III. Make sure you use Elast-O-Actif, this is an elastofier that
does
not leach out of the paint. I added 50% of the flex additive to the paint
before
adding hardener and reducers.
If the paint that you have on the airplane is of the lacquer type (Polytone)
do not spray an enamel clear coat. It will probable peel off.
Note: before sanding. Wash the surface down with a grey scotch brite pad and
plenty of baking soda. This will neutralize any acidity that is impregnated
the surface (usually causing craters).
Greetings. Eric, Atlanta
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
I used a poly system with polytone.
If i read your email correctly putting clear over poly tone might flake
but if i put a eurothane on top of what i have and then a clear would
that work for a while?
Ceashman@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
>
>
>
>>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
>>
>>
>keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
>
>
>
>>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
>>
>>
>the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
>I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
>Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
>
>
>
>>Jared
>>
>>
>
>Hi Jared.
>Let me know if what type of paint you have on the airplane now. If you don't
>know the name of the paint or the type of paint (lacquer type or enamel type)
>Try a little MEK on a dark rag like a scrap of black T shirt. Wipe a little
>spot (not too visible) and if it softens the paint and you get white paint on
>the rag then it is Lacquer type. (could be Polytone) if it doesn't soften and
>the rag does not get white then it is enamel type. (could be Aerothane).
>Whether lacquer or enamel type, both will be influenced by acid rain.
>Especially if the pigment is not well protected with clear.
>
>If the paint system is of the enamel type you could sand it down with P600 to
>P800 grit wet and spray a coat and a half of enamel type clear. This will
>greatly protect against acid rain.
>I work for a paint company, Akzo Nobel. I sprayed my Classic IV with a
>product called Sikkens Autocryl and after wet sanding I sprayed a product named
>Autoclear III. Make sure you use Elast-O-Actif, this is an elastofier that does
>not leach out of the paint. I added 50% of the flex additive to the paint before
>adding hardener and reducers.
>If the paint that you have on the airplane is of the lacquer type (Polytone)
>do not spray an enamel clear coat. It will probable peel off.
>
>Note: before sanding. Wash the surface down with a grey scotch brite pad and
>plenty of baking soda. This will neutralize any acidity that is impregnated
>the surface (usually causing craters).
>
>Greetings. Eric, Atlanta
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Flier" <flier@sbcglobal.net>
-->Isn't Aerothane a two-part polyurethane while Polytone is similar to enamel
-->single part), but it's not enamel?
In the true sense of the word "enamel".Is a coating that is chemically active
during it's drying process. When dry, a true enamel will not dissolve to
it's own solvent or a more aggressive solvent, it may wrinkle and disintegrate
under harsh solvents (if it is of a week structure) but it will not become a
liquid again.
Aerothane (by Poly Fiber Corp.) Is as you say, a two component polyurethane.
And must have a hardener to chemically cross link and as such is a very
resilient paint film (a true enamel that will not wrinkle unless subjected to very
harsh chemicals like paint stripper)
On the other hand, Poly Tone is a one component (no hardener) air drying,
physical drying material. No chemical reaction is taking place.
Nothing wrong with this stuff, traditionalist love the sheen and finish. I
saw a yellow Cub that was just sprayed (Don's Dream Machines in Griffin GA) It
was a work of art, a finish that only this product can provide.. one word
'silky"
Poly Tone can be "rejuvenated" and easily repaired. That is because it will
soften and will become liquid again if enough solvent is introduced into the
existing paint. This temporary softening is a bonus for and during the repair
process.
Down side to Poly Tone. Not that wet look and not as resistant to the
environment as Aerothane. Polytone usually sprayed on fabric airplanes and usually
kept in hangers. You have probably noticed the ones at the local airport that
are left outside...shame.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
-->I used a poly system with polytone.
-->If i read your email correctly putting clear over poly tone might flake
-->but if i put a eurothane on top of what i have and then a clear would
-->that work for a while?
Hi Jared.
I am not saying you cannot use clear polyurethane enamel over the top of Poly
Tone.
You can risk the clear peeling off but there are some things you can do to
prevent or greatly reduce the risk.
For example, I used the Poly Fiber Polybrush and Poly Spray. Both of which
are air drying materials (can be dissolved with thinner). But after the silver
coat, Poly Spray (that you must apply to protect from UV light, and I think to
be legal) I left the silver for a good week before sanding and applying a
polyurethane sealer on top. No adhesion problems.
So' If what you are saying is that you must re color because of staining. I
would apply one coat of color, Use Aerothane of the same white color, do not
change the color you may have coverage problems. And then use a polyurethane
clear coat.
Because the existing finish is relatively old and the color is the same you
do not risk the solvent penetrating into the existing finish. This is the main
contributor to the clear coat peeling problem.
Hope this helps.
One other thing to consider. Why not sand your airplane and re apply Poly
Tone. This is the finish you were looking for originally (it is cool!)
Cheers Eric.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Paint - Need to clear coat |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Huntley" <asq1@adelphia.net>
FWIIW,
Why not just spray on a coat of same color PolyFiber Aerothane and leave
it at that? That is what I did after my Polytone stained from "bugjuice".
Aerothane is shiny and doesn't need clearcoat.That was a year ago and it
looks like it did when I put it on.
Larry Huntley,Kitfox
4-1200,EA81,Dundee,NY,USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "jareds" <jareds@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Paint - Need to clear coat
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
>
> I used a poly system with polytone.
> If i read your email correctly putting clear over poly tone might flake
> but if i put a eurothane on top of what i have and then a clear would
> that work for a while?
>
>
> Ceashman@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
> >
> >
> >
> >>Acid Rain in the DC area continues to stain my white paint on my fox. I
> >>
> >>
> >keep it outside and plan to continue for time being.
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'm told that a clear coat may eventually crack BUT it may be years down
> >>
> >>
> >the road and by then it will be ready for refabricing.
> >I'd like to refresh the paint and then put a light coat of clear on it?
> >Have any of you gone down this road or have suggestions on the process?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Jared
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Hi Jared.
> >Let me know if what type of paint you have on the airplane now. If you
don't
> >know the name of the paint or the type of paint (lacquer type or enamel
type)
> >Try a little MEK on a dark rag like a scrap of black T shirt. Wipe a
little
> >spot (not too visible) and if it softens the paint and you get white
paint on
> >the rag then it is Lacquer type. (could be Polytone) if it doesn't soften
and
> >the rag does not get white then it is enamel type. (could be Aerothane).
> >Whether lacquer or enamel type, both will be influenced by acid rain.
> >Especially if the pigment is not well protected with clear.
> >
> >If the paint system is of the enamel type you could sand it down with
P600 to
> >P800 grit wet and spray a coat and a half of enamel type clear. This will
> >greatly protect against acid rain.
> >I work for a paint company, Akzo Nobel. I sprayed my Classic IV with a
> >product called Sikkens Autocryl and after wet sanding I sprayed a product
named
> >Autoclear III. Make sure you use Elast-O-Actif, this is an elastofier
that does
> >not leach out of the paint. I added 50% of the flex additive to the paint
before
> >adding hardener and reducers.
> >If the paint that you have on the airplane is of the lacquer type
(Polytone)
> >do not spray an enamel clear coat. It will probable peel off.
> >
> >Note: before sanding. Wash the surface down with a grey scotch brite pad
and
> >plenty of baking soda. This will neutralize any acidity that is
impregnated
> >the surface (usually causing craters).
> >
> >Greetings. Eric, Atlanta
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 22
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net
I have been flying my Kitfox, and have noticed that after I input a setting in
the flapperons say half or full deflection, they tend to go back to the neutral
position due to wind forces! any suggestions.
Ray
<!-- BEGIN WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
<style type='text/css'>
p {
margin: 0px;
}
</style>
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I have been flying my Kitfox, and have noticed that after I input a setting in
the flapperons say half or full deflection, they tend to go back to the neutral
position due to wind forces! any suggestions.
Ray
<!-- END WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Lynn, I think I would let it be. I built according to the manual - been
flying six years - 650 hours - they look and work like new.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ask it again, Lynn...re flaperon horns
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I guess I misspoke myself when I said flaperon horns....I meant to say
> flaperon end ribs. In the Aug. '03 revision, they say to use structural
> adhesive...in the Mar '03, per Lowell, they don't mention the adhesive,
> and they don't mention it in the original Sept. '92 version manual that
> came with my kit. I was consulting the later version of the manual to
> see what changes have been brought about, and maybe that's getting me
> in trouble. My flaperon end ribs are now riveted in, as are the horns.
> I used no adhesive, per the original manual. I've been contemplating
> drilling out all 17 rivets...10 for the end ribs, and the 4 for the
> flap horn, and the 3 for the retainer ring....and putting it all back
> together using structural adhesive for the end rib/flaperon connection,
> but this seems like destructive work. Maybe I can just drill out the 10
> rivets that hold the rib to the flap, slide some structural adhesive in
> the gap and close it up...yeah, that seems like a good plan.
>
> Lynn
>
> On Monday, October 11, 2004, at 03:44 PM, John King wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
> >
> > Lynn,
> >
> > I am not 100% sure just what parts you are describing. If it is the
> > metal end rib riveted to the flaperon before the horn end pieces are
> > attached, then it should also have structural adhesive applied. Make
> > sure you scuff up both surfaces before applying the adhesive to assure
> > a good bonding surface. The end rib flange is usually powder coated,
> > so
> > I do not think the adhesive was do ton dissimilar metals.
> >
> > --
> > John King
> > Warrenton, VA
> >
> >
> > Lynn Matteson wrote:
> >
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> I never got a reply to my recent question, so I'll post it
> >> again....(it
> >> probably slipped through the cracks with all the VG talk recently).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I was just looking at a later assembly manual (Aug. '03) for the
> >>> Classic IV, and it tells you to "apply structural adhesive to the end
> >>> rib flanges...", etc., when installing the flap horn, while the
> >>> original doesn't mention the application of the structural adhesive
> >>> during this step....what did you folks do? Thinking about it now
> >>> (after
> >>> I had installed mine without any adhesive), I realize that there
> >>> might
> >>> be a "dissimilar metals in contact" problem here...whaddaya think?
> >>> Lynn
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Flapperon help? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Ray,
That means that the leather washer that is part of your flap handle
assembly need replacing or else the bolt tightened at the base of the
handle. There is a more superior method of securing the handle in place
that can be easily incorporated. See
<http://www.sportflight.com/kfb/sampiss.htm#FlapControl>.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
KITFOXPILOT@att.net wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net
>
>I have been flying my Kitfox, and have noticed that after I input a setting in
the flapperons say half or full deflection, they tend to go back to the neutral
position due to wind forces! any suggestions.
>
>Ray
>
><!-- BEGIN WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
><style type='text/css'>
>p {
>margin: 0px;
>}
></style>
>
><!-- WEBMAIL STATIONERY noneset -->
>
>
>I have been flying my Kitfox, and have noticed that after I input a setting in
the flapperons say half or full deflection, they tend to go back to the neutral
position due to wind forces! any suggestions.
>
>
>Ray
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I am no paint expert either. I did clear coat
Aerothane over my PolyTone on the fuel tanks and first
rib bay, but I still get gas stains. Too soon to tell
about the adheasion, but PolyFiber says they are
compatable since you Aerothane over PolySpray anyway.
They warn that moisture will get under the clear coat
and grow fungus on the PolyTone in humid climates.
When I lived in L.A., I had an entire lawn chair/table
set disintegrate in a single year due to the
pollution. The fabric umbrella turned brown and fell
apart first. I am not sure wax would help that much
more in that kind of pollution.
Kurt S.
do not archive
--- Michel Verheug he <michel@online.no> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> <michel@online.no>
>
> jareds wrote:
> > I'm hoping to get lots of answers.
>
> ... all right, buddy! You asked for it!!! :-)
> I have never painted a plane and know absolutely
> nothing about it. But, being
> used to the harsh environment yachts suffer (they
> are never hangared) I'd like
> to ask: Have you considered frequent and good
> waxing? My humble opinion is that
> it should keep the acid rain a minor problem.
> Anyway, what kind of pilot are you to leave your
> nice lady out in the acid
> rain? Aren't you ashamed, man? (just kidding! :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
_______________________________
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Cliff,
Your goals and mine are almost exactly the same, so my
structural intentions with the plane are a match too.
I also have the grove gear with 6x6 tires and the
Maule TW. 6x8 tires are standing by.
The early Grove gear was much taller. Melnik's plane
had it at first and I think Tom Anderson's too. It
probably was a better match for short fields, but
you'd have to ask them.
I have not gained the skill level yet to do good short
field landings power off, let alone power on. I enjoy
slow flight at altitude, but have not risked it yet
down low. It is an old helo driver flaw of mine.
Fear of fixed wings slow and low. Something I have to
train myself to overcome.
I do 3 point landings and note that it is often not
quite stalled yet, so getting a bounce is still easy.
Planting the tail sometimes works, but just a few
knots faster or a bump in the grass and I'm up again.
I have been cheating lately by using 1/2 flaps and
dumping them on landing.
More by luck than intent, I find that landing
tailwheel first power off doesn't drop me on the mains
that badly. Power on may be a different story. I got
a lot of training to do before I get that good though.
I would like to have the VG speed reduction to use, if
needed, so I'll test them some more later.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Clifford Begnaud <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
wrote:
> Kurt,
> I am really enjoying your reporting on the VG tests.
> I want to add them to
> our plane but have not done so yet for reasons I
> will explain below.
> For me, the primary reason for owning a Kitfox is
> for "off airport" ops and
> general short field stuff. So anything I do to the
> airplane should allow me
> land and takeoff shorter, get to the short field
> faster, haul more stuff to
> the short field or do these things with less risk of
> damage or injury.
> Having a lower stall speed would in theory allow you
> to land and takeoff
> shorter. But there may be some practical limitations
> imposed by your
> airplane. So consider the following:
> During your flight testing, have you done many short
> field, 3 point
> landings? If so, have you noticed that you can land
> the plane "tailwheel
> first" with ease without the VG's installed? If you
> are able to do so,
> consider what would happen if VG's allowed the plane
> to stall at a higher
> angle of attack.
> On our Kitfox, when I do a full stall, 3 point
> landing, the tailwheel
> touches down first while the mains are still at
> least 1 foot above the
> ground (maybe more). The plane is configured with
> 600 x 6 tires and a Maule
> 8" pneumatic tailwheel. If I add VG's and increase
> the angle of attack at
> the stall, with or without a change to the IAS, the
> mains will likely be
> 18"-24" above ground at the stall. And this is doing
> full stall landings
> with power at idle, imagine what happens when I do
> it with power!
>
> This is one of the reasons that Alaska bush pilots
> install extended landing
> gear. It allows the plane to stall in a "3 point"
> attitude without the
> tailwheel making such violent contact with ground.
> Also consider that these
> bush pilots don't even consider it a short field
> landing unless it's done
> with lots of power, with the plane landing at a very
> high angle. As you can
> imagine, if you are landing on the tailwheel first,
> it won't be long before
> damage is done to the tail end of the plane.
>
> I plan to change to 8.50 X 6 tires, and install the
> small homebuilders
> special tailwheel. This will give the tailwheel a
> little more room. But I
> suspect that I will still be able to land tailwheel
> first.
>
> I have talked with numerous people about this issue,
> and while the kitfox is
> a great airplane, there are some design flaws that
> keep it from achieving
> it's full potential as a bush plane. After all, the
> wing on the model 5 was
> really designed for the model 4 at a gross weight of
> 1050 lbs. We are asking
> it to do bush work at 1550 lbs, that is 57% more
> weight than the plane for
> which the wing was designed!!!!!!
>
> Ideally, for bush flying, the model 5 needs a higher
> lift wing, the wing
> needs to be set at a higher angle relative to the
> fuselage and it could use
> a little longer landing gear (among other things).
>
> Despite these shortcomings, I still love our kitfox
> and will likely add Vs.
> for the safety factor. If they soften the stall and
> prevent it from dropping
> a wing in a deep stall, then that would be
> worthwhile because I so often fly
> the plane right on the edge of stall. Especially
> when doing short field ops.
>
> Best Regards,
> Cliff Begnaud
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