---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/13/04: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:49 AM - SV: What are the requirments for a pilots lic. in Europe? (Michel Verheughe) 2. 01:56 AM - Re: Skyfox? (Graeme Toft) 3. 02:44 AM - Re: Paint - Need to clear coat (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 4. 03:00 AM - Re: Rotax 582 ers!! (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 5. 04:53 AM - Re: Rotax 582 ers!! (Chuck & Vicki Tippett) 6. 05:14 AM - Re: Rotax 582 ers!! (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 7. 06:05 AM - 582 fuel leak (Gill Levesque) 8. 02:07 PM - Re: Skyfox? (Michel Verheughe) 9. 02:59 PM - Re: 582 fuel leak (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 10. 03:13 PM - Need to sell stuff (off topic) (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 11. 03:16 PM - Re: Skyfox? (Jose M. Toro) 12. 06:03 PM - Re: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL (neflyer48) 13. 06:10 PM - Re: SV: Paint (& pollution) (kurt schrader) 14. 06:15 PM - Re: 582 fuel leak (Gill Levesque) 15. 06:19 PM - Re: Need to sell stuff (off topic) (Gill Levesque) 16. 06:28 PM - Re: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL (Jimmie Blackwell) 17. 06:50 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (kurt schrader) 18. 07:08 PM - Re: Need to sell stuff (off topic) (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 19. 07:09 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (Rick) 20. 07:28 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (kurt schrader) 21. 07:46 PM - Re: Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process (kurt schrader) 22. 08:09 PM - Hello to all my friends (EMAproducts@aol.com) 23. 08:09 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (Lowell Fitt) 24. 08:13 PM - Re: VG's and the testing process (kurt schrader) 25. 08:13 PM - Re: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL (John King) 26. 08:17 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (kurt schrader) 27. 08:27 PM - Re: Rotax 582 ers!! (John King) 28. 08:32 PM - Re: Re: Fuel stop in Illinois (kurt schrader) 29. 09:35 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (William J. Applegate) 30. 11:34 PM - Re: Barrel Rolls (Don Pearsall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:42 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: What are the requirments for a pilots lic. in Europe? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: Jay Fabian [experimental208nd@comcast.net] > Is that the proper term, and what might be the requirments for a private, > or do they have a sport pilot equivalant? It would be for in Greece. The problem with Europe, Jay, is that we have many different countries with many different rules. I don't know what is the rule in Greece. I know that we work now for a common European rule but it is still in the future. Right now, anything that is not Private Pilot (PPL-A) license is called Microlight, Ultralight or ULM (ultra-leger motorise). Next summer, I intend to fly my Kitfox to Belgium and maybe France. To do that, I'll need to make sure I won't be stopped in Sweden, Danmark, Germany and The Netherlands. I already know that Danmark will ask me to have a higher insurance coverage. Sweden and Germany should be ok. The Netherlands may ask me to avoid certain airspace and/or to limit my landings to certain places. Belgium is hell to fly over because all the airspace is controlled. France and Spain are known to be easy for microlights. The definition of the microlight license differ from country to country. Here, in Norway, it is about 70% of the theory of the Private Pilot. Meteorology is the same, but navigation doesn't include radio beacons. Medicine doesn't include high altitude since we are limited to 10,000 ft. The Norwegian definition of a microlight is: MTOW under 450 kg, wing load under 20 kg/m2, stall speed under 63 km/h, and max. two seats. That makes the French Cri-cri (the world smallest aircraft, I think) not a Microlight because the wings are too short. I don't know the rules in Greece but I can try to find out, if you want, Jay. But is your intention to fly there your own plane, or rent one? What is your certificate? Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:04 AM PST US From: "Graeme Toft" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Skyfox? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" Skyfox aircraft are no longer made in Australia and haven't been for some time. There is a company in Gympie that looks after parts and still distributes to those requiring them but apparently they are getting pretty scare since Skyfox folded up. The bloke in Gympie worked at the skyfox factory. If you let me know what it is that your chasing, I will make a call for you to check price etc. This is going to be a problem in Australia in a few years because there are a lot flying around that will be looking for parts in the future. Regards Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Skyfox? > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > Michel: > > You can order a Skyfox cowling through Suncoast (www.suncoastjabiru.com), > the Jabiru dealer in Florida. I intend to order in the next few days a > complete package including engine (2200), engine mount for my Kitfox II, > Skyfox cowling, gauges, and everything else you need to do this > conversion. The Skyfox cowling is supposed to fit Kitfox II and III > without modifications. It does require modification for the Model IV. > > Jose > > Michel Verheughe wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Guys, > If you want to do business on the internet, you have to answer customers. > I > never got an answer from Aircraft Spruce regarding their tailwheel and > now, I > don't get an answer from Skyfox regarding their cowling. > > I would then take my business elsewhere but the market is not that big. My > question is then: Before I decide for something else, do any of you know > how I > can get Australian Skyfox to answer if they have a cowling I can use on my > model 3, when I install the Jabiru? > > Any advise would be welcome. Thanks in advance. > > Michel > > do not archive > > > Jose M. Toro, P.E. > Kitfox II/582 > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..." > > > --------------------------------- > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:39 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Paint - Need to clear coat --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/12/04 5:28:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Ceashman@aol.com writes: << So if you compound the Poly Tone say after the first 3 years of it's life. Then you will be compounding it much more frequently, say 4 months if left outside. That is why aluminum aircraft are left outside and aluminum aircraft do not have Poly Tone applied on them. Eric Ashman. Classic IV Atlanta >> Do Not Archive Eric, Thanks, I learn something new everyday. Never suspected I was possibly doing more harm than good. The sanding does do a good job for making the paint slick as a whistle. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:24 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 ers!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/12/04 6:22:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: << Hey all 582ers. Had A fuel leak today which I noticed after a short flight!! I saw the fuel was running down my exhaust pipe!!! YIKES!!! I removed my cowling! and found one of my carbs leaking!!Looking at the carbs and primer lines, as well as the fuel lines I thought there needs to be some kind of tray or "catch basin" here to keep fuel leaks OFF the hot exhaust!!! Any Ideas??? Gotta fix this!!! Gil Levesque >> Gil, I agree with the need for a catch basin or diverter plate to keep the gas off the muffler. I've had a couple occasions where gas was running on the muffler. Makes you shiver at each drop. As far as the leak goes, you didn't say "where" the fuel was leaking out of the carb. I assume it was from the overflow vent line? I've always had one touchy carb where the bowl would not seat properly and cause the floats to act up and give me a leak out the vent line. Had the same thing happen on one of Glenn Horns carbs. I've never been able to confirm exactly what is not seating properly. You can almost "feel" when the seat is correct or not. Very touchy. I know we can't relocate the little carb vent lines (carb pressure) but it is probably the holes in those lines that is the source of the fuel leak. How about something that would catch a leak from those holes and divert it back to the firewall. However, that something can't be allowed to change the pressure at the carb vent?? Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:55 AM PST US From: "Chuck & Vicki Tippett" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 ers!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Vicki Tippett" I have the good fortune of owning John Kings wonderful Model IV where he came up with a superb way to redirecting this excess fuel from overflowing carbs . His daughter is a Doctor and he was able to come up with the idea and it works fine . He has taken a large sirenge and of course just uses the bottom part the part for the fluid . Now this is a larger style sirenge about3 inches long with about 1/2 diameter . He has mounted this " catch just where the sacred over flow lines hang down on each carb so they are inside this sirenge about an inch and then he has another fuel line that goes from the bottom of this sirenge to along the firewall to where it now exits just below the cowling . Doing it this way does not affect any pressures in the carbs what so ever .I'll be happy to take a picture for anyone and I'll also talk with John King to see if maybe he has not already done so . My model IV is a 912 but I also have a Model II with a 582 on floats and was able to install these below my carbs on this one as well . Chuck Tippett -------Original Message------- From: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 ers!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/12/04 6:22:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: << Hey all 582ers. Had A fuel leak today which I noticed after a short flight!! I saw the fuel was running down my exhaust pipe!!! YIKES!!! I removed my cowling! and found one of my carbs leaking!!Looking at the carbs and primer lines, as well as the fuel lines I thought there needs to be some kind of tray or "catch basin here to keep fuel leaks OFF the hot exhaust!!! Any Ideas??? Gotta fix this!!! Gil Levesque >> Gil, I agree with the need for a catch basin or diverter plate to keep the gas off the muffler. I've had a couple occasions where gas was running on the muffler. Makes you shiver at each drop. As far as the leak goes, you didn't say "where" the fuel was leaking out of the carb. I assume it was from the overflow vent line? I've always had one touchy carb where the bowl would not seat properly and cause the floats to act up and give me a leak out the vent line. Had the same thing happen on one of Glenn Horns carbs. I've never been able to confirm exactly what is not seating properly. You can almost "feel" when the seat is correct or not. Very touchy. I know we can't relocate the little carb vent lines (carb pressure) but it is probably the holes in those lines that is the source of the fuel leak. How about something that would catch a leak from those holes and divert it back to the firewall. However, that something can't be allowed to change the pressure at the carb vent?? Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:09 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 ers!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/13/04 4:54:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, planecrazy@erols.com writes: << about3 inches long with about 1/2 diameter . He has mounted this " catch just where the sacred over flow lines hang down on each carb so they are inside this sirenge about an inch and then he has another fuel line that >> Chuck, Hard to picture, need a picture. I don't recall John ever talking about this. Thanks, Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:07 AM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 fuel leak --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Hi! all 582ers. I should have mentioned in my post yesterday, that the carb was leaking from the hole at the bottom of the inlet(air filter) end!! Not from the VENT lines!!! I assume this is a float bowl overflow?? The fuel had gathered in the lower(rear) end of the filter(dual) and dripped on my exhaust pipe!!! Anyone know how to get the needle valve out of the carb body to clean??? The pin holdinf the float arm in looks "pressed"in !! Thanx Gil Levesque C-IGVL Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:00 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Skyfox? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Graeme Toft wrote: > Skyfox aircraft are no longer made in Australia and haven't been for some > time. Thanks Graeme but I have now talked to Dave, from Suncoast in Florida, and he tells me it is Jabiru itself that sells the Skyfox cowl. He can get it for me but so can my Norwegian Jabiru agent. Asking him, I get the answer that yes, but it is not certain it will fit and that a moulding of the Jabiru aircraft front bowl would be safer. Then, on the Jabiru list, I am told to talk to someone who has a Jabiru with Skyfox cowl on a Kitfox ... but it is a Kitfox Classic and pardon me if I misunderstood something but I think the model 3 and Classic have different cowl (and angle of windshield). Soooo, I don't know. I'll do something but I don't know yet what it will be. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:06 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 fuel leak --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/13/04 6:06:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: << I should have mentioned in my post yesterday, that the carb was leaking from the hole at the bottom of the inlet(air filter) end!! Not from the VENT lines!!! I assume this is a float bowl overflow?? >> I would have to look again but I believe the float bowl vent is the small tubes. The only time I got fuel form where you mention was due to over priming the engine. The primer ports will cause fuel to drip from the air filters????? Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:59 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Need to sell stuff (off topic) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Do Not Archive I recently mentioned Hirth engines for sale and didn't get a whole lot of feedback. I guess it's because the Hirth engine has a reputation like a dog. Anyway, I am now prepared (I think) to slash the cost of those engine to bare bone (have 4 new ones+parts to throw in). Also, I might be able to part with some instruments and such. I know I have at least a dozen quad EGT/CHT gauges and maybe more stuff that someone might want. Prices will be good. I have a new Bing 54 carb......... Just for grins, I have a 1999 Ford cube van (20' box/3 ton capacity) with numerous extras for sale. This thing only has 16K original miles and still smells new on the inside. Price is $10K. (advertises at $15K) and Located in Virginia (PHF). Please contact off list for anything you might need. Things are tough at my new Helicopter job. I have been given the job to dump things or I don't get paid. What the heck. PLEASE, OFF LIST Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:44 PM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Skyfox? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Michel: Dave Jalanti, davej@mhcable.com, has a Kitfox Model IV with the Jabiru 2200 and the Skyfox cowling. You can see pictures at www.usjabiru.com, under builders photos. This plane was featured recently in three articles in Kitplanes magazine (December, February, and March I guess). Since the windshield has a greater angle in the model IV, he had to modify the cowling. I have found in my research that the Skyfox cowling was based on a Kitfox III, so it does not require modifications to fit that model, nor the model II. I don't know anybody using that cowling on a model II or III, but know a person that is using that cowling in an Avid Heavy hauler. You can see pictures at http://www.avidflyeraircraft.com/m_schindler.php. He did not need to modify the cowling for that fuselage. So, there is a Jabiru list? Michel Verheughe wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Graeme Toft wrote: > Skyfox aircraft are no longer made in Australia and haven't been for some > time. Thanks Graeme but I have now talked to Dave, from Suncoast in Florida, and he tells me it is Jabiru itself that sells the Skyfox cowl. He can get it for me but so can my Norwegian Jabiru agent. Asking him, I get the answer that yes, but it is not certain it will fit and that a moulding of the Jabiru aircraft front bowl would be safer. Then, on the Jabiru list, I am told to talk to someone who has a Jabiru with Skyfox cowl on a Kitfox ... but it is a Kitfox Classic and pardon me if I misunderstood something but I think the model 3 and Classic have different cowl (and angle of windshield). Soooo, I don't know. I'll do something but I don't know yet what it will be. Cheers, Michel Jose M. Toro, P.E. Kitfox II/582 "A slow flight in the Caribbean..." --------------------------------- vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:45 PM PST US From: "neflyer48" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" I sent my Westach gauge and sender in to Westburg Mfg.. They replaced the sending unit and calibrated to the gauge. They didn't charge me anything! Jerry Kohles M3 912 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" > > Recently I experienced an oil pressure problem indication. I am concerned about the oil pressure indication showing on my Westach quad gauge. At low rpm, 2000-2500 my oil pressure gauge fluctuates wildly from 60 to 100 psi. Bringing the rpm up to over 3000 rpm settles the gauge down to between 60 and 80 psi. I am trying to determine whether I have an oil sensor problem. electrical problem or an actual oil pressure problem. > > Talking to Lockwood they seem to think that I have an oil pressures sensor problem. A new sensor for the Westach is expensive. Talking to another Rotax repair facility' they suggest also that it is probably an oil pressure sensor problem, but it may be a rubber oil line that is collapsing. > > Wonder if any of you had these problems. > > Before I get airborne again I plan to replace all the oil lines just be safe. Hopefully someone can tell me what size and type hoses to buy to replace the oil lines. > > Thanks > > Jimmie > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:29 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: SV: Kitfox-List: Paint (& pollution) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Pollution? > Oops! And with the prevailing wastrels, all that > acid rain is moving toward Norway, right? :-) Actually, the air leaving the US off the East Coast is cleaner than that arriving on the West Coast. Don't tell our "Green Party" people that though. They don't want to hear it. We have a very large country and now have a tree density as much as 100 times natural. That is why we have so many forest fires. It is almost certain that any tree catching fire will spread it, where before there was space and less undergrowth between them. The American Indians used to regularily set fires out West to thin the trees and undergrowth and keep the place more like a park. Now it is jam packed with trees. The air is cleaned as it passes over the US. The dirtiest air for a country is in China and that comes to us, but over a long distance. China still uses a lot of coal and doesn't worry about polution in burning it. Russia is bad too. If you ever go to one of their cities, it is not uncommon to get a nose bleed from breathing the air. Korea too. I got a bloody nose there myself. Some of our cities are still bad, but much better than they were in the 70's. I get to see and compare when flying in and out of them. You have to look at the weather including visibility ya' know. The vast majority of our pollution comes from automotive use. I could watch the purple clouds form around the California highways in the am when I was there. Thick enough you could see it like fog when you drove into it. It spread to cover L.A. with smog by 9 am. But I just saw (again) yesterday how it was much worse when we used coal and horses. ( I wasn't there, really!) This story was primarily about typhoid fever in New York, but polution was the back drop for the desease studies. We would like to blame the big guys, but really it is us individuals who make most of our own problems. IMHO. Kurt S. Do not archive __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:13 PM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 fuel leak --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Don, I called the BING people today and was instructed on how to remove the pin holding the float needle in!(pressed in tapered pin) and after cleaning the needle and seat , the problem has been solved!!! I suspect a small sliver of fibreglass from the tanks! You are right ,the vent is the tube with the holes drilled in it , but the needle valve ,when stuck will flow from the hole in the air filter end of the carb!! We still need to devise some kind of tray to catch any overflow or drips from our fuel system, to avoid fuel on the exhaust!!! Gil Levesque C-IGVL AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/13/04 6:06:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: << I should have mentioned in my post yesterday, that the carb was leaking from the hole at the bottom of the inlet(air filter) end!! Not from the VENT lines!!! I assume this is a float bowl overflow?? >> I would have to look again but I believe the float bowl vent is the small tubes. The only time I got fuel form where you mention was due to over priming the engine. The primer ports will cause fuel to drip from the air filters????? Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:55 PM PST US From: Gill Levesque Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need to sell stuff (off topic) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gill Levesque Hey , What do you mean "Helicopter Job"!!! I thought you retired!!!! Gil Levesque C-IGVL Summers in Canada Winters at W90 Forest,VA AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Do Not Archive I recently mentioned Hirth engines for sale and didn't get a whole lot of feedback. I guess it's because the Hirth engine has a reputation like a dog. Anyway, I am now prepared (I think) to slash the cost of those engine to bare bone (have 4 new ones+parts to throw in). Also, I might be able to part with some instruments and such. I know I have at least a dozen quad EGT/CHT gauges and maybe more stuff that someone might want. Prices will be good. I have a new Bing 54 carb......... Just for grins, I have a 1999 Ford cube van (20' box/3 ton capacity) with numerous extras for sale. This thing only has 16K original miles and still smells new on the inside. Price is $10K. (advertises at $15K) and Located in Virginia (PHF). Please contact off list for anything you might need. Things are tough at my new Helicopter job. I have been given the job to dump things or I don't get paid. What the heck. PLEASE, OFF LIST Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 Still alive and flyin!!!! Gil --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:33 PM PST US From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" Thanks Jerry. Westburg told me that since my guage is one of the older ones (8 years old) the sender unit will cost $175. If the sender is faulty I am thinking about investing in a EIS unit. I may send it to them anyway in the hope that I might get a break on the price. Thanks again Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: "neflyer48" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" > > I sent my Westach gauge and sender in to Westburg Mfg.. They replaced the > sending unit and calibrated to the gauge. They didn't charge me anything! > > Jerry Kohles > M3 912 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jimmie Blackwell" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" > > > > > Recently I experienced an oil pressure problem indication. I am concerned > about the oil pressure indication showing on my Westach quad gauge. At low > rpm, 2000-2500 my oil pressure gauge fluctuates wildly from 60 to 100 psi. > Bringing the rpm up to over 3000 rpm settles the gauge down to between 60 > and 80 psi. I am trying to determine whether I have an oil sensor problem. > electrical problem or an actual oil pressure problem. > > > > Talking to Lockwood they seem to think that I have an oil pressures sensor > problem. A new sensor for the Westach is expensive. Talking to another > Rotax repair facility' they suggest also that it is probably an oil pressure > sensor problem, but it may be a rubber oil line that is collapsing. > > > > Wonder if any of you had these problems. > > > > Before I get airborne again I plan to replace all the oil lines just be > safe. Hopefully someone can tell me what size and type hoses to buy to > replace the oil lines. > > > > Thanks > > > > Jimmie > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:10 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader -- Fox5flyer wrote: > Thanks for getting back on this topic Kurt. Nobody > else has ventured forth yet, but I'm hoping some do. > More below. > ............ > > > > I tried standard rolls starting at 100 knots. > That was more than the Fox needed. I used 10 degrees > > nose up for the entry, but didn't get close enough > > to zero G's on entry and went a bit nose low > > inverted. >.......... > When you say standard rolls, it sounds like you're > speaking of barrel rolls. > Semantics? If so, wouldn't about 25 to 30 degrees > up be a better entry before rolling inverted? Ok, my definitions: 1. A standard roll is where you keep the nose pointed in the same direction on the horizon, though it may move vertically a bit. I found that 10 degrees nose up to 10 degrees nose down works for aircraft that roll ok, if I do the maneuver right. You need about zero "G's" at the roll start. For a slow roller, more nose up is required. 2. A barrel roll is when the nose is pulled up vertically while rolling 45 degrees to one side, then continuing the roll until you are higher than the start altitude, inverted, and 90 degrees off heading. Then you continue the same pull as in a split "s", but continue the roll too until you are 90 degrees turned, back on the origional heading, and on your origional start altitude too. It is like a rolling loop, but takes less G's than a loop. The nose never exceeds 45 degrees up or down due to the roll. The aircraft stress is still high due to the roll twist on the wing though. I haven't done barrel rolls in a long long time. In navy jet training we did a lot of the same stuff the Blue Angles do, but further apart and not anywhere near the ground. You learn that sensitivity goes up with G load. A formation loop trying to maintain 20' spread is a workload. Stick corrections that work fine in 1 G formation, are 3 times too much in the loop. And a plane that rolls 420 degrees/second is mighty touchy on the stick to begin with. Now I can't even roll my Fox nicely. Getting old is a pain... Jim Franklin's video makes it look easy in his IV. I keep it on my 'puter. He doesn't seem to ever exceed 110 mph, by my guess. Of course that is a IV. You'll need a little more speed in a "heavy" Fox. But if it won't do a loop or any other maneuver with 120 mph, it is too close to VNE to try, IMHO. You need room for error. Kurt S. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:06 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need to sell stuff (off topic) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 10/13/04 6:20:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, canpilot03@yahoo.ca writes: << Hey , What do you mean "Helicopter Job"!!! I thought you retired!!!! Gil Levesque >> I might be retired again pretty soon Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:19 PM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" OK well two, way back when, with a very seasoned pilot CFI. The margin for error is too slim and the consequences for error to great. It is not an aerobatic plane. A great flyer, not aerobatic. Use it to fly to where you keep the plane that will forgive you. This one IMHO will not. I don't care to get into all the but I did this and that's and so on. If you screw up your done, plane and simple. I like to fly low and fast. Its fun and the feeling of speed is awesome. If I get a wind shear or sudden engine failure then IM most likely done. So I am not judging anyone for doing what they enjoy. Just know what the out come may be. If you are intent, then get some training in a different aircraft first. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader -- Fox5flyer wrote: > Thanks for getting back on this topic Kurt. Nobody > else has ventured forth yet, but I'm hoping some do. > More below. > ............ > > > > I tried standard rolls starting at 100 knots. > That was more than the Fox needed. I used 10 degrees > > nose up for the entry, but didn't get close enough > > to zero G's on entry and went a bit nose low > > inverted. >.......... > When you say standard rolls, it sounds like you're > speaking of barrel rolls. > Semantics? If so, wouldn't about 25 to 30 degrees > up be a better entry before rolling inverted? Ok, my definitions: 1. A standard roll is where you keep the nose pointed in the same direction on the horizon, though it may move vertically a bit. I found that 10 degrees nose up to 10 degrees nose down works for aircraft that roll ok, if I do the maneuver right. You need about zero "G's" at the roll start. For a slow roller, more nose up is required. 2. A barrel roll is when the nose is pulled up vertically while rolling 45 degrees to one side, then continuing the roll until you are higher than the start altitude, inverted, and 90 degrees off heading. Then you continue the same pull as in a split "s", but continue the roll too until you are 90 degrees turned, back on the origional heading, and on your origional start altitude too. It is like a rolling loop, but takes less G's than a loop. The nose never exceeds 45 degrees up or down due to the roll. The aircraft stress is still high due to the roll twist on the wing though. I haven't done barrel rolls in a long long time. In navy jet training we did a lot of the same stuff the Blue Angles do, but further apart and not anywhere near the ground. You learn that sensitivity goes up with G load. A formation loop trying to maintain 20' spread is a workload. Stick corrections that work fine in 1 G formation, are 3 times too much in the loop. And a plane that rolls 420 degrees/second is mighty touchy on the stick to begin with. Now I can't even roll my Fox nicely. Getting old is a pain... Jim Franklin's video makes it look easy in his IV. I keep it on my 'puter. He doesn't seem to ever exceed 110 mph, by my guess. Of course that is a IV. You'll need a little more speed in a "heavy" Fox. But if it won't do a loop or any other maneuver with 120 mph, it is too close to VNE to try, IMHO. You need room for error. Kurt S. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:00 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Rick, That is my intention too. My plane is for fun other than real acro. I just wanted it in my logbook during testing to cover me for any aggressive maneuvers I might get into. And also to know how well the plane gets me out of my mistakes. I don't see a need to test its limits or hurt it, let alone myself. To me, looking 50' sideways from a mountain peak that no man has ever climbed is a better thrill. Calm mornings of course. My most dangerous activities will certainly be landings, given my current mastery of the task. Since I have been testing the plane and mods so much, I probably haven't got over 60 tailwheel landings to my name. I need to practice..... I found out that practicing in the Camp didn't help so much. Now I flare my Fox high for some reason and land worse than when I started. Kurt S. --- Rick wrote: > OK well two, way back when, with a very seasoned > pilot CFI. The margin for error is too slim and the > consequences for error to great. ....... __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:11 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Why use VG's, was:VG's and the testing process --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Cliff, --- Clifford Begnaud wrote: > Kurt, > I've seen a few planes with the taller gear. I think > for the type of > mounting system used that they were probably too > tall to stand up to the > shear forces that could be encountered on rough > fields, beaches, river banks > etc. The origional tall gear got to the Melniks too. They bent it in the sand at Sun & Fun when the plane was brand new. I agree, it didn't look as secure to me either. > ........... > Seems you've discovered the key to landing short; > "land slow"! You are not cheating at all by dumping > flaps, that's my favorite technique, especially > if its windy.......... > Also, > make sure your engine is at a very slow idle when > landing. If the idle is > just a little too fast, it will still be providing > thrust and greatly > lengthen your landings. I have experienced this > first hand on several 912 > powered kitfoxes (including our first one). > > You are using the NSI Subaru with CAP prop and Warp > drive blades, correct? I > assume that you can go to a very fine pitch so that > the prop will provide > lots of drag? Oh wait, I just remembered that the > NSI gearbox freewheels at > idle, right? If so, that should allow you to set > fine pitch and let the prop > act as an airbrake. Make sure you take advantage of > that feature on landing, > it will allow you to make steep approaches to very > short landings. > > Keep us informed of your progress, I look forward to > hearing how your testing goes, especially as it > relates to short field ops. > Best Regards, > Cliff My last landing was a long floater. I just didn't get the prop pitch flat enough and ate up probably 700' trying to get down. It was an over the trees, then down hill landing too. That added to the float. I need to work on the prop pitch thing more to get good landings, yet allow a good missed approach. Seems a good landing pitch produces nothing but RPM with power increase and this electric prop takes a few seconds to change sufficiently. This is the year to finish my projects. But I will practice all next year. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:14 PM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Hello to all my friends --> Kitfox-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com Hello listers, I'm back on the list after a long absence. I hope my friends are now flying that were 99% completed when I left the list :-) as we know it doesn't happen easily. As always I'm open to assisting those who have questions on flying in general, my KitFox experience is very minimal~assisted one customer setting up his system in his Honda powered Fox and loved the plane, hope to get more time in the Fox in future. Please, if question is not one that majority of listers will benefit from, send it to me off list. Sincerely and Keep the Foxes flying! Elbie Mendenhall EM Aviation www.riteangle.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:37 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" This is an interesting thread. I too like to fly low. Our group that flew to Oshkosh always flew legally regarding structures etc., but I remember one stretch when I was flying behind another Kitfox and thinking - his wingspan is 32 ft. what is his altitude AGL. He was well within a wingspan of the ground and this for mile after mile across the corn and sunflower fields of Minnesota and the unplanted prairies of South Dakota. We've chased antelope and mustangs in the deserts of Nevada, Oregon and Idaho and passed over mountain ridges in California, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming at near tree top level. I have about 11 hours of video of the Oshkosh trip that I hope to start on once the weather makes outside activities a little less enticing. I must say, though that I fly lower when with a group than when alone. I would sure like to hook up with you other low fliers someday. If I just didn't have to go to work. It looks like retirement might provide the opportunity someday. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > Rick, > > That is my intention too. My plane is for fun other > than real acro. I just wanted it in my logbook during > testing to cover me for any aggressive maneuvers I > might get into. And also to know how well the plane > gets me out of my mistakes. I don't see a need to > test its limits or hurt it, let alone myself. > > To me, looking 50' sideways from a mountain peak that > no man has ever climbed is a better thrill. Calm > mornings of course. > > My most dangerous activities will certainly be > landings, given my current mastery of the task. Since > I have been testing the plane and mods so much, I > probably haven't got over 60 tailwheel landings to my > name. I need to practice..... > > I found out that practicing in the Camp didn't help so > much. Now I flare my Fox high for some reason and > land worse than when I started. > > Kurt S. > > --- Rick wrote: > > > OK well two, way back when, with a very seasoned > > pilot CFI. The margin for error is too slim and the > > consequences for error to great. ....... > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:02 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: VG's and the testing process --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader --- jimshumaker wrote: > Kurt > > No I could not measure any difference in cruise or > top speed. But my top > sea level cruise speed is almost structural redline. > > Oh, I did in fact, use 17 degrees on the VG's also. > > Jim Shumaker OK, Jim, I will definately have to try the more forward position and the 17 degree angle next year. It could turn out that either or both are required for the speed reduction on my plane. I wondered about the 15 degrees anyway. Things tend to stall and create vortex's better past 16 degrees, if I remember correctly. But Renolds # are in play too. I just stayed with the book angle on my tests. I am still a long way from VNE at cruise. Still need to reduce the drag on my plane. Currently my cruise is under 100 mph, unless I want to burn a lot of gas. Since my fairing mod, I haven't tested max level speed, or max climb rates, or takeoff and landing distances, or... more fun stuff to test. Right now I am using adequate power and not awsome power to takeoff and climb. I use max throttle at 4400 rpm for my upper limit. 4800 is the real max continuous and 5600 rpm is tops. There is a big jump in power from 5200 rpm to 5600. I am saving that for later. It is becoming a good plane. Got to look into the SS valves soon too, before I do the high power stuff too much. Kurt S. _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:51 PM PST US From: John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Oil Pressure Mistery on 912 UL --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King Jimmy, I had the same problem with my Model IV a few years ago and last week with my Series 6. Both had a Westach quad gauge. In both cases I proved that the problem was the oil sensor by installing a mechanical oil pressure gauge. Today for some strange unexplained reason the price of a replacement Westach oil pressure sensor is well over $200.00. I haven't decided on a permanent fix yet, but might just stick with the mechanical oil pressure gauge. Oil pressure gauges, 1/8" aluminum tubing and some AN fittings are not expensive. If your problem turns out to not be an instrumentation problem, then the most probable cause is a restriction in the oil supply or return system, like a oil line hose or connector. In both my Model IV and Series 6, I installed the AeroFlex type of hoses with AN fittings. Much easier to remove and more reliable in my opinion (AN fittings versus hose cable clamps) I suggest you locate where the problem is first before you go changing out all of the oil hoses. Also check your oil cooler and filter for restrictions. My money's on the instrumentation. -- John King Warrenton, VA Jimmie Blackwell wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" > >Recently I experienced an oil pressure problem indication. I am concerned about the oil pressure indication showing on my Westach quad gauge. At low rpm, 2000-2500 my oil pressure gauge fluctuates wildly from 60 to 100 psi. Bringing the rpm up to over 3000 rpm settles the gauge down to between 60 and 80 psi. I am trying to determine whether I have an oil sensor problem. electrical problem or an actual oil pressure problem. > >Talking to Lockwood they seem to think that I have an oil pressures sensor problem. A new sensor for the Westach is expensive. Talking to another Rotax repair facility' they suggest also that it is probably an oil pressure sensor problem, but it may be a rubber oil line that is collapsing. > >Wonder if any of you had these problems. > >Before I get airborne again I plan to replace all the oil lines just be safe. Hopefully someone can tell me what size and type hoses to buy to replace the oil lines. > >Thanks > >Jimmie > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:08 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader We'll be waiting for the good vids Lowell. I would like to add them to my Idaho Back Country vids... Kurt S. Do not archive --- Lowell Fitt wrote: > This is an interesting thread. I too like to fly > low. Our group that flew > to Oshkosh always flew legally regarding structures > etc., but I remember > one stretch when I was flying behind another Kitfox > and thinking - his > wingspan is 32 ft. what is his altitude AGL. He > was well within a wingspan > of the ground and this for mile after mile across > the corn and sunflower > fields of Minnesota and the unplanted prairies of > South Dakota. We've > chased antelope and mustangs in the deserts of > Nevada, Oregon and Idaho and > passed over mountain ridges in California, Idaho, > Montana and Wyoming at > near tree top level. I have about 11 hours of video > of the Oshkosh trip > that I hope to start on once the weather makes > outside activities a little > less enticing. > > I must say, though that I fly lower when with a > group than when alone. I > would sure like to hook up with you other low fliers > someday. If I just > didn't have to go to work. It looks like retirement > might provide the > opportunity someday. > > Lowell __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:40 PM PST US From: John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 ers!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King Don, I have talked about it before, but you missed it. I will send you a picture direct to your retirement home. BTW, if you happen to have any spare oil pressure sensors for the Westac Quad Gauge, please send one my way. I'll pay up to $30.00. -- John King Warrenton, VA AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > >In a message dated 10/13/04 4:54:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >planecrazy@erols.com writes: > ><< about3 inches long with about 1/2 diameter . He has mounted this " catch > just where the sacred over flow lines hang down on each carb so they are > inside this sirenge about an inch and then he has another fuel line that >> > >Chuck, > Hard to picture, need a picture. I don't recall John ever talking about >this. > >Thanks, >Don Smythe >N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 >Do Not Archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:06 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Fuel stop in Illinois --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Dave Ron and Bob, Well guys, I didn't mean to leave you hanging. It looks like I'll be driving up instead this time. Wx is not looking good and my GPS internal lithium battery took a dump. It won't keep waypoints and has to hunt for 10 minutes to find itself on startup. The factory wants me to send it to them for a $135 battery change. Sure! And yes I am chicken to pilotage it for the first x country, expecially with marginal wx. This is a downer for my dad, and I have been pushing very hard to make it happen. It will just have to wait. I have to know when to take a hint.... I'd like to stop at each one of your places to visit enroute on one trip or another. I was also told to try Kankakee, but I don't see any auto fuel there? The locals use it going to OSH for the show. Anyone live near Kankakee? Sorry for the false start. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Aerobatics@aol.com wrote: > How about Paxton? they have fule at a good price > 3,400 foot N/S Paved... > Ill zip over weather and time permiting... its only > 18 Miles west of me.. > > Dave > > KF2 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:03 PM PST US From: "William J. Applegate" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "William J. Applegate" Hi Troops, I don't usually comment on subjects like barrel rolls and flying low, but today I feel compelled to do so. I was an Air Force flying safety officer and accident investigator and conducted lots of safety briefings to squadron and wing personnel. Let me say that one can only tie the record for flying the lowest. Additionally, the PK (percentage kill) for hitting the ground is almost 100%. When you are trained to do it, are competent and proficient at it, have studied the terrain and know it like your back yard and am completely focused on what you are doing, you can go low and "fast" successfully. But, think of all the caveats I included here. Also, just because you are successful once doesn't mean you always will be. Complacency is the biggest problem you can have and it has a tendency to creep up on all of us. I hope I haven't come off as preachy, please keep your head up and eyes firmly on the target and Fly Safe. Apples Lowell Fitt wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > >This is an interesting thread. I too like to fly low. Our group that flew >to Oshkosh always flew legally regarding structures etc., but I remember >one stretch when I was flying behind another Kitfox and thinking - his >wingspan is 32 ft. what is his altitude AGL. He was well within a wingspan >of the ground and this for mile after mile across the corn and sunflower >fields of Minnesota and the unplanted prairies of South Dakota. We've >chased antelope and mustangs in the deserts of Nevada, Oregon and Idaho and >passed over mountain ridges in California, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming at >near tree top level. I have about 11 hours of video of the Oshkosh trip >that I hope to start on once the weather makes outside activities a little >less enticing. > >I must say, though that I fly lower when with a group than when alone. I >would sure like to hook up with you other low fliers someday. If I just >didn't have to go to work. It looks like retirement might provide the >opportunity someday. > >Lowell >----- Original Message ----- >From: "kurt schrader" >To: >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls > > > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> >> > > > >>Rick, >> >>That is my intention too. My plane is for fun other >>than real acro. I just wanted it in my logbook during >>testing to cover me for any aggressive maneuvers I >>might get into. And also to know how well the plane >>gets me out of my mistakes. I don't see a need to >>test its limits or hurt it, let alone myself. >> >>To me, looking 50' sideways from a mountain peak that >>no man has ever climbed is a better thrill. Calm >>mornings of course. >> >>My most dangerous activities will certainly be >>landings, given my current mastery of the task. Since >>I have been testing the plane and mods so much, I >>probably haven't got over 60 tailwheel landings to my >>name. I need to practice..... >> >>I found out that practicing in the Camp didn't help so >>much. Now I flare my Fox high for some reason and >>land worse than when I started. >> >>Kurt S. >> >>--- Rick wrote: >> >> >> >>>OK well two, way back when, with a very seasoned >>>pilot CFI. The margin for error is too slim and the >>>consequences for error to great. ....... >>> >>> >>__________________________________ >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:03 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Barrel Rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" Bill, I loved this sentence in your post: "Let me say that one can only tie the record for flying the lowest." I had to read that one twice before I got it. Great post. Don Pearsall