---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/02/04: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - SV: Re: radiator and cooling (Michel Verheughe) 2. 01:59 AM - SV: [off-topic] Meeting. (Michel Verheughe) 3. 05:04 AM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 4. 05:36 AM - SV: Re: radiator and cooling (Michel Verheughe) 5. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (Lowell Fitt) 6. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (Lowell Fitt) 7. 07:29 AM - SV: Re: radiator and cooling (Michel Verheughe) 8. 08:12 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 11/01/04 (EMAproducts@aol.com) 9. 09:18 AM - Blue Sky Aviation? (KITFOXPILOT@att.net) 10. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (Bruce Harrington) 11. 09:48 AM - Re: Sigtronics 400 Intercom system (Bruce Harrington) 12. 09:50 AM - Re: Blue Sky Aviation? (John Oakley) 13. 10:03 AM - Re: Blue Sky Aviation? (Fred Shiple) 14. 11:48 AM - Re: A New Temperature Control System (Torgeir Mortensen) 15. 12:25 PM - Re: A New Temperature Control System (Michel Verheughe) 16. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (Torgeir Mortensen) 17. 01:41 PM - Re: A New Temperature Control System (Torgeir Mortensen) 18. 01:49 PM - Skyfox cowling on a model 3 (Michel Verheughe) 19. 02:28 PM - Re: LP Aero Doors (Jeffrey Puls) 20. 02:59 PM - Re: LP Aero Doors (David Savener) 21. 03:12 PM - Re: SV: Re: radiator and cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 22. 03:14 PM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 23. 03:19 PM - Weights (AlbertaIV@aol.com) 24. 03:33 PM - Wing attach Pin? (Clifford Begnaud) 25. 04:04 PM - Re: Wing attach Pin? (jdmcbean) 26. 04:04 PM - Re: Completion of N854JB - Series 6 912S (jdmcbean) 27. 04:51 PM - List Fundraiser (Please Read) (Fox5flyer) 28. 06:58 PM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (William J. Applegate) 29. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: radiator and cooling (Lowell Fitt) 30. 08:50 PM - John King's Bahamas Trip - Second Progress report (Don Pearsall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:46 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: kurt schrader [smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com] > I like looking out the window too, so I dream of > automated controls in flight a bit myself. Yes, but that's because you flew all your life as a professional, Kurt. As a novice, I like to have many buttons, dials and handles to play with. It makes me feel important. Get respect from the other guys and admiration from the chicks! Beside that, looking out the window is too scary, I need to concentrate on something else! :-) Just kidding! Have a nice voting day, all my American friends! Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:54 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: [off-topic] Meeting. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: Torgeir Mortensen [torgemor@online.no] > I'll bet you're in deep concentration, preparing this engine installation. Yep! I almost feel like ... a Kitfox Builder! :-) > And-, keep us informed about the progress -pictures is handy, you know... Will do! ;-) Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:20 AM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 11/1/04 9:48:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes: << I like looking out the win >> Speaking of cowl doors/flaps, I'm having a mind tossing over which is the best flap to put behind the radiator. I'm about ready for a test flight after the cowl mods and will probably do so without the manually operated flap behind the rad. I would like a flap design that when say, it was 25 % closed, the radiator would be blocked 25%. Right now, it look like one single flap hinged at the bottom of the rad, when open say, 25% you still have most of the rad open and the flap is only acting as a wind diverter. You don't really start to decrease the radiator opening until that flap is somewhere at 50% or greater shut. Looks like almost the same situation if you use multiple vanes/shutters. I would like to design a fail safe shutter that is more linear. If you close it 20%, it reduces the airflow 20% etc. etc. etc. I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in temps until he is 50% closed. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:35 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: AlbertaIV@aol.com > I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking > to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in > temps until he is 50% closed. How about the butterfly valve that closes water flow to the radiator, as I suggested a while ago, Don? Maybe a bad idea, but I'd be interested to know why because if water is no longer my concern, now that I install a Jabiru, I have an idea to do that trick for the oil cooler. Of course, a fail-safe spring that keeps it open if the cable breaks, is mandatory. But, otherwise, wouldn't that be a good stepless regulator of the flow (oil or water) and mechanically simpler? Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:17 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Don Don't know if can explain my thoughts on this so it they can be understood - but... If you had multiple vanes, each a pair placed back to back so when closing two vanes acted against each other the air flow should reduce pretty much linearly - I think. I haven't thought about actuation, though, but it could be a fun project. Maybe multiple vanes acting against a series of stationary vanes might work. I have jigs for making vanes that are about 1". wide and about 7" long max. If you want to try the multiple vane idea and need help in parts, let me know. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/1/04 9:48:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, > smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes: > > << I like looking out the win >> > > Speaking of cowl doors/flaps, I'm having a mind tossing over which is the > best flap to put behind the radiator. I'm about ready for a test flight > after the cowl mods and will probably do so without the manually operated flap > behind the rad. > I would like a flap design that when say, it was 25 % closed, the > radiator would be blocked 25%. Right now, it look like one single flap hinged at the > bottom of the rad, when open say, 25% you still have most of the rad open and > the flap is only acting as a wind diverter. You don't really start to > decrease the radiator opening until that flap is somewhere at 50% or greater shut. > Looks like almost the same situation if you use multiple vanes/shutters. > I would like to design a fail safe shutter that is more linear. If you close > it 20%, it reduces the airflow 20% etc. etc. etc. > I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking > to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in > temps until he is 50% closed. > > Don Smythe > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:26 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Michel, Be careful that you provide a bypass for the oil if you restrict the flow through the cooler. The volume needs are a lot more critical in the lubrication system than in the cooling system. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > From: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking > > to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in > > temps until he is 50% closed. > > How about the butterfly valve that closes water flow to the radiator, as I suggested a while ago, Don? > Maybe a bad idea, but I'd be interested to know why because if water is no longer my concern, now that I install a Jabiru, I have an idea to do that trick for the oil cooler. Of course, a fail-safe spring that keeps it open if the cable breaks, is mandatory. But, otherwise, wouldn't that be a good stepless regulator of the flow (oil or water) and mechanically simpler? > > Cheers, > Michel > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:56 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: Lowell Fitt [lcfitt@inreach.com] > Be careful that you provide a bypass for the oil if you restrict the flow > through the cooler. The volume needs are a lot more critical in the > lubrication system than in the cooling system. Good point, Lowell. ... just from the top of my head: How about a two-ways valve that lets the oil flow either in the cooler (in the summer), or in the bypass (in the winter)? Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:09 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 31 Msgs - 11/01/04 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com Guy says: I guess I like to spend too much time looking out the window. I guess I thought that the water cooled system was much more sensitive than air cooled systems. If I could realistically get away with a manual control I wouldn't mind it a bit. Maybe I'll try it. >>>Guy, I think you will find that the liquid cooling is much less sensitive and not near as critical, especially as you change power settings, the coolant keeps the engine components at a fairly constant temp. I would think the radiator flap would be used less than the cowl flap on your "35" and the thermostat would do the small corrections. I'll contact the KF owner that is here locally, I've flown it, has a Honda and see how he did it. I know how the Europa with the Turbo Rotax is done, have also flown it. Just my opinion ~ Anyone with experience flying liquid cooled jump in here! And glad you like to look out the window, prevents mid airs! Elbie Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:26 AM PST US From: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Kitfox-List: Blue Sky Aviation? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Does anybody know the email for Blue Sky Aviation in Montana? Ray Does anybody know the email for Blue Sky Aviation in Montana? Ray ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:18 AM PST US From: "Bruce Harrington" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" Hi Don, You are trying to solve a very difficult problem due to the configuration! My position is don't worry about the positions. The most important is to have full closure. Then you make a lever arm to provide sufficient throw to get full airflow thru the radiator. Mine opened to about 75 and worked for 20F thru 100F. Have fun. bh > Speaking of cowl doors/flaps, I'm having a mind tossing over which is > the > best flap to put behind the radiator. I'm about ready for a test flight > after the cowl mods and will probably do so without the manually operated > flap > behind the rad. > I would like a flap design that when say, it was 25 % closed, the > radiator would be blocked 25%. Right now, it look like one single flap > hinged at the > bottom of the rad, when open say, 25% you still have most of the rad open > and > the flap is only acting as a wind diverter. You don't really start to > decrease the radiator opening until that flap is somewhere at 50% or > greater shut. > Looks like almost the same situation if you use multiple > vanes/shutters. > I would like to design a fail safe shutter that is more linear. If you > close > it 20%, it reduces the airflow 20% etc. etc. etc. > I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking > to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in > temps until he is 50% closed. > > Don Smythe > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:06 AM PST US From: "Bruce Harrington" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sigtronics 400 Intercom system --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" Hi Dee, I just noticed this last night also! I need to get my wiring diagrams from the hangar and check how I wired the passenger headset/mic. I may have it set up as co-pilot, which may not work the way I want it. Cheers, Bruce > Bruce, I was just reading the operating instructions for the squelch. It > seems to work in reverse to what I am used to. I am going to start with > that and see if I may be the problem and not the Sig. 400. > > Dee ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:14 AM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Blue Sky Aviation? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" Ray, John Mcbean who is on our list, jdmcbean@cableone.net should get you there. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KITFOXPILOT@att.net Subject: Kitfox-List: Blue Sky Aviation? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: KITFOXPILOT@att.net Does anybody know the email for Blue Sky Aviation in Montana? Ray Does anybody know the email for Blue Sky Aviation in Montana? Ray ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:39 AM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Blue Sky Aviation? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple www.blueskyaviation.net will get you there fred ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A New Temperature Control System From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Guy, No problem, my name is from the old "Viking Saga", and mean something like: "Thunderspear".. :) Well, I'll presuming you'll know the PIC processors. ----- For those don't, this little short description; It is a little programmable computer (I mean little - very little). This computer, or rather a "microchip" -but even so, it is a "true" computer with a RISC processor. We can program a number of pins on this device to be either input or output. Then we can make a program sensing the input and make the output pins control the "flapper motor". ----- However, the use of multi sensors is an important "fail safe" device. I.E. if one sensor fails, the system can still operate in a very smart manner. Such device may, predict a "standard" flapper valve setting for a certain OAT., it even may calculate another flapper valve setting for that same OAT. as if the water temp is hi, as after a flight or a run up. Also, it may warn if the temperature exceed a defined level (either hi or lo), or if start rising fast. Also this kind of device may not adjust the flapper valve all the time, but just when there is a need for it. Hmm., let's see- next what about installing an altitude sensor (?), this smart box may close the flapper valve if; The altimeter "report" descend, the temperature is in the right span and finally that the power used is in the lo range. And- if there is a go around situation, the system set the flapper valve to fully open. You see, there is plenty of good function to be built in such a device, further, with only three sensors all of the above functions can be built in. Later on, improved functionality - if there is any, can be added by just changing the software. Hey, don't forget that I like it simple -and fail safe. :) Cooling effect of the air. We can't get linearity between the physical "cooling area" VS. "air flow" and the "water temperature", this because the physical law of fluid dynamics. Density, temperature etc. But, to be able to have a perfect "water temperature" control, we must also adjust the water flow ( hi Michel - how about this :) ). Yes, this is true, as this is what "almost" every car there is use, cant be wrong. Hey, I'll better stop here, but heres a lot to discuss. Water is an ideal cooling medium VS. air, this because of the waters good heat capacity. This is why an air cooled system is more temperature sensitive under power, than a water cooled. There is still plenty of issues around the cooling system, but right now I'm running out of time. Regards Torgeir. On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:08:46 -0800, Guy Buchanan wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > Torgeir, (I spelled it right that time, but I still don't know how to > pronounce it!) > I'm a little confused. Are you going to drive the simple flapper > valve with the motor based on something more than coolant temp? Are you > going to try to anticipate thermal loads and cooling rates using the > slide > position and OAT, respectively? Do you think that's necessary? I was > hoping > to get away with just measuring coolant temperature. What are you using > to > measure coolant temperature? I've got coolant temperature for the EIS > that > I assume will come out of the water jacket, but I thought it would be > better for the flapper to measure just downstream of the radiator to > minimize phase lag. It also puts the measurement next to the drive servo > which could make for a more compact assembly. What do you think? > > Guy > > At 01:40 AM 11/2/2004 +0100, Torgeir Mortensen wrote: >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen >> >> >> Hi Guy, >> >> I've been elaborating with this stuff for a long time. >> >> I'm one of the "aviators" without the thermostat, from the very first >> day >> -using the "weapon tape".. >> >> I've been fiddling with a PIC processor and a stepper motor to control >> the >> flap. >> >> The input sensors is: >> >> 1) The water temperature >> >> 2) Slide position (power) >> >> 3) OAT (outside air temp.) >> >> (Been thinking about using RPM too, but skipped this.) >> >> In parallel with the stepper motor, I've in mind a manual handle. >> >> --------------------- >> >> >> The upper path, is just "easy" -but to be honest, I'll really like this >> thing simple -and failsafe. So my favorite, is a simple flapper valve, >> like Bruce's system. Well, I'll like to have just a little electronics >> -and this will be a aural warning for low or high temperature. In fact, >> I've made this aural warning system some time ago, one for the water >> temp >> and one for the EGT, but yet to be installed and tested. >> >> PS. The fun of flying "returned" after I got the Fox... >> >> >> Regards >> >> Torgeir. >> >> >> On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:48:10 -0700, Guy Buchanan >> wrote: >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >> > >> > Hi all! >> > Given the problems of shock cooling and seizure described on >> the >> > list for the 582, I thought that if I removed the existing thermostat, >> > then >> > cowled my radiator, then contrived some kind of system that opened the >> > cowl >> > flap based on the coolant temperature, I might eliminate the shock >> > cooling >> > problem. The water would always circulate throughout the system, and >> it >> > would be maintained at the proper temperature by the automatic action >> of >> > the cowl flap. Has anyone tried this system? Do you think it would >> work? >> > Does anyone have a line on a thermostatically controlled actuator that >> > could drive a cowl flap? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > >> > Guy Buchanan >> > K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ >> >> > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:33 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A New Temperature Control System --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > But, to be able to have a perfect "water temperature" control, we must > also adjust the water flow ( hi Michel - how about this :) ). Yes, and that's what I was thinking of with the valve, Torgeir, you old saga thunder! :-) But first, a question: Isn't a radiator (or a cooler) a kind of flow resitor? If it is "short-cutted" with a hose, won't the fluid take the shortest way if allowed? So, if we have: OUTLET INLET ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !--------------------------2-WAY <--------> TO THE COCKPIT ! ------------------------- VALVE ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !---------------------------! ! ! RADIATOR OR ! ! COOLER ! ! ! !-------------------------------! Won't this work as a regulator? Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Kurt, Guess I'll belong to the same group, the "manually automatic" believers.. :) I'm thinking of an door hinged in the middle, in this way low force is needed to controlling the "door", a kind of rotating door. It might be possible to hinge a little offset to have the opening effect. I'm a little weak for the center hinge method, cause of the low controlling force needed, -less wear and tear etc. For the control of the door, I'm thinking of a direct rod linkage with rod ends, but sure, a simple (and cheap) wire knob can do that same job very well. Can't help, but I come to think about a female call out (sure the PIC can do that with a small assistance :) ): Hey Kurt, you've landed -the coffee is waiting for you...... If you don't drink coffee, the device might be reprogrammed.. :) Cheers Torgeir. On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:46:51 -0800 (PST), kurt schrader wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Torgier, Elbie and Guy, > > I like looking out the window too, so I dream of > automated controls in flight a bit myself. In my > case, the scoop outlet door also controlls the oil > temp. A fail-safe control is a must for me. I > thought of a worm drive for my scoop door so that it > has plenty of power off a small motor on one end and I > can put a knob or crank to turn on the other end for a > fail-safe. But even that is complex. > > Perhaps a compromise would work for now for both Guy > and me. > > I found temp gauges in Summit that have setable limits > so that they flash the numbers when the upper limit is > reached and scroll "LO" at the low limit. > > A manual controller with a flashing gauge may keep you > from getting out of limits when distracted by moose > turn stalls, etc. OK, maybe not then, but in regular > flight. Better than an idiot light, the flashing > digital gauge will get your attention to the specific > problem so you can make a change manually when you > might miss it otherwise. > > You get the failsafe of a manual control, but you can > set the warning where you want it to catch your > attention before you hit the high limit, say at your > caution temp. A poor man's engine analyzer? > > They even have gauges that record high and low temps, > if you want that. > > I am not usually a fan of digital gauges, but these > extra warnings and the fact that my analog gauge was > up to 30 degrees off, may change my mind. > > Just some more ideas. > > Kurt S. > > --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> Elbie, >> I guess I like to spend too much time >> looking out the window. I'd like my plane to operate > >> like my Acura! Seriously, though, I fly a Bonanza >> with cowl flaps and those work fine. I guess I >> thought that the water cooled system was much more >> sensitive than air cooled systems. If I could >> realistically get away with a manual control I >> wouldn't mind it a bit. >> Maybe I'll try it. >> >> Guy > > > __________________________________ > www.yahoo.com > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A New Temperature Control System From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen I'm presuming you are meaning resistor, yes it will act as a fluid resistor, but we don't like resistance in any part of such a system. In fact, the drawing you've made is a "standard" by pass circuit. Here, it will be by-passed gradually, depending of the valve position, and the pressure will not increase but rather decrease (and this is good) - due to the present resistance in the radiator. So this one might be good if you can get a good and reliable valve, yes no need for any door here. (We use to say: There is plenty of different roads to Rome.) For the very cold area, this approach is not recommended, this because cold weather can freeze "cooling fluid" in your rad., even with high concentration of "cooling fluid". For oil cooling system, this approach shall not be used - as oil go very stiff in cold condition and the cooler would not let much oil pass through. Sure, can be done. --- In the water cooling system, the closure of the thermostat rice the water pressure -remember this is with a "cold" engine. This higher pressure increase the stress on the sealing, esp. in shaft / pump area. Another good reason to avoid water regulation, is the need for good (and expensive) valves - besides this put yet another device into the path, and this one is hard to get to during maintenance. Hmm., we try to put as few parts as possible, to minimize the number of physical fatal "fail modes". Cheers Torgeir. On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:21:19 +0100, Michel Verheughe wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > Torgeir Mortensen wrote: >> But, to be able to have a perfect "water temperature" control, we must >> also adjust the water flow ( hi Michel - how about this :) ). > > Yes, and that's what I was thinking of with the valve, Torgeir, you old > saga > thunder! :-) > But first, a question: Isn't a radiator (or a cooler) a kind of flow > resitor? > If it is "short-cutted" with a hose, won't the fluid take the shortest > way if allowed? > So, if we have: > > OUTLET INLET > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! !--------------------------2-WAY <--------> TO THE COCKPIT > ! ------------------------- VALVE > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! !---------------------------! ! > ! RADIATOR OR ! > ! COOLER ! > ! ! > !-------------------------------! > > Won't this work as a regulator? > > Cheers, > Michel > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:51 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Skyfox cowling on a model 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Jose, FYI, this is how longer the Skyfox cowling is on my model 3. As soon as I get the engine mount, I'll remove the 582 and get a better look because, right now and as you can see, the prop is in the way. But it looks like it will fit around the windshield. http://home.online.no/~michel/tmp/NewCowl.jpg Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:44 PM PST US From: "Jeffrey Puls" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" Are you guys talking about those small dremmel tools that have the small disk or the big ones run by air? Jeff > [Original Message] > From: David Savener > To: > Date: 11/1/2004 7:02:16 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" > > I also used a Dremmel. Then I used a sanding drum to even up the edges. Then I used a Dremmel with a buffing/polishing wheel with first rubbing compound then polishing compound and the edges looked just like the surface. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kurt schrader > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > I also used a dremmel with a cutoff wheel. Did 5 > doors, 1 windscreen, and 3 windows without a problem. > You have to clean up the edges after, but the cutting > works fine. > > I would think a band saw would be more risky since a > tooth can catch and crack the plastic. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Jeffrey Puls > wrote: > > > I'm replacing one of my LP Aero bubble doors. The > > information packet says to use a band saw to trim > > the window. The blade goes in one direction. I do > > not have a band saw. Did anyone else trim with > > something else? The last time I trimmed a window I > > was not happy with the outcome. Jeff Classic IV > > > > > > Jeffrey Puls > > pulsair@mindspring.com > > > > __________________________________ > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:28 PM PST US From: "David Savener" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:58:09 -0600 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" The tool I used was the variable speed Dremmel tool. The polishing/buffing wheel I used was given to me by another builder. He told me that he had bought it at a Rock shop/Jewelry Maker supply shop who had lots of good accessories for the dremel tool. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey Puls To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" > Are you guys talking about those small dremmel tools that have the small disk or the big ones run by air? Jeff > [Original Message] > From: David Savener > > To: > > Date: 11/1/2004 7:02:16 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" > > > I also used a Dremmel. Then I used a sanding drum to even up the edges. Then I used a Dremmel with a buffing/polishing wheel with first rubbing compound then polishing compound and the edges looked just like the surface. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kurt schrader> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: LP Aero Doors > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> > > I also used a dremmel with a cutoff wheel. Did 5 > doors, 1 windscreen, and 3 windows without a problem. > You have to clean up the edges after, but the cutting > works fine. > > I would think a band saw would be more risky since a > tooth can catch and crack the plastic. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Jeffrey Puls >> wrote: > > > I'm replacing one of my LP Aero bubble doors. The > > information packet says to use a band saw to trim > > the window. The blade goes in one direction. I do > > not have a band saw. Did anyone else trim with > > something else? The last time I trimmed a window I > > was not happy with the outcome. Jeff Classic IV > > > > > > Jeffrey Puls > > pulsair@mindspring.com> > > > > __________________________________ > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:03 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 11/2/04 5:37:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, michel@online.no writes: << How about the butterfly valve that closes water flow to the radiator, as I suggested a while ago, Don? Maybe a bad idea, but I' >> IMHO, a bad idea. If you close water off to the radiator (bypass valve), the water in the radiator will get very cold. When you open the valve, COLD water will be introduced into the engine. Good conditions for a seizure. I think maximum water flow and controlled temps in the radiator are the way to go. Even getting rid of the thermostat is appealing if you can control the temps with airflow over the radiator Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:04 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com In a message dated 11/2/04 6:53:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, lcfitt@inreach.com writes: << Don't know if can explain my thoughts on this so it they can be understood - but... If you had multiple vanes, each a pair placed back to back so when closing two vanes acted against each other the air flow should reduce pretty much >> Lowell, Maybe hinged in a "V" shape. Hmmmm. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:57 PM PST US From: AlbertaIV@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Weights --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com Someone asked a couple weeks ago about the weights of my fiberglass turtledeck. Today, I finally got around to weighing the turtledeck, my new bottom rad cowl and tried to weigh the tailwheel with the wings folded back. However, the calibrated digital scales I was using would only go to 150 lbs. The tailwheel is heavier than 150 lbs with the wings folded. Other weights are as follows: Fiberglass Turtledeck: 5.6 lbs. Bottom rad/gear cowl: 7.4 lbs. Don Smythe N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:58 PM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing attach Pin? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Does anyone know the exact specification for the front spar attach pin for a model 5, 1550 gross? It is a Clevis pin, 5/16" diameter and -26 bolt length. I think it is a NAS pin, but not sure and would like help identifying it. Thanks, Cliff ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:29 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wing attach Pin? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" Cliff, I believe it is a AN395-85 Clevis Pin... I think I went with a -87 because the -85 is very close to being to short..... Blue Skies John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing attach Pin? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Does anyone know the exact specification for the front spar attach pin for a model 5, 1550 gross? It is a Clevis pin, 5/16" diameter and -26 bolt length. I think it is a NAS pin, but not sure and would like help identifying it. Thanks, Cliff ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:29 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Completion of N854JB - Series 6 912S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" John, Congrats !!.... Now you really begin to have fun... By the way.. there is such a thing as a Kitfox addiction.. You'll get it..... Blue Skies John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Banes Subject: Kitfox-List: Completion of N854JB - Series 6 912S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Banes" The kit arrived Nov 8, 2001. After spending 33 months in our 2 car garage and 3 months in the hangar N854JB is finally complete. It seems the FAA agrees. I should receive the airworthiness certificate and limitations tomorrow. Next item is the first test flight. Basic info: Empty Weight 814 lb Useful Load 736 lb Landing Gear Tri-gear Engine 912S 100HP Stock S-6 no S-7 upgrades Propeller Warp Drive 72" 3 blade set to 15 deg. at tip - 5100 Static RPM I would appreciate hearing from S-6 drivers with the 912 S the following airspeeds. Rotate Liftoff Vx Vy Vs0 Vs1 Va Best Glide Thanks in advance! John Banes ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:25 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: List Fundraiser (Please Read) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I whole heartedly agree with Don's sentiments. As many who've been with us for many years would attest, what we have, with Matt's service, is a vast improvement over what we've had in the past. No viruses, no spam, no downtime, etc. Don and I act as administrators and most of you are aware of us chiming in once in awhile, but what you don't hear much about is Matt and the hard work he does in the background keeping all the technical stuff going that keeps this list viable. Not only does he have a lot of work into it, it also costs him money so we all need to help him out as much as we can. Please help by going to the link below and contributing what you can. Best regards, Darrel Morisse Kitfox List Co-Administrator > As list co-administrator, I must also encourage all Listers to contribute to > Matt Dralle's fund-raising efforts. I am going to contribute too, as should > everyone. Matt has brought you all excellent list service for almost a year > now, and everyone here knows how useful and valuable the list is. > > The yearly fund-raiser is the only reimbursement that Matt gets for running > the lists, and it must pay for all his expenses for the entire year. > > Please contribute what you can. > Thank you, > > Don Pearsall > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dralle > To: dralle@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Matronics 2004 Email List Fund Raiser [PLEASE READ] > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > > Dear Listers, > > Each November I hold a PBS-like Fund Raiser to support the continued > operation and upgrade of the Email List servers at Matronics. The Lists > sponsored here are supported solely though the direct contributions of its > members each year during the Fund Raiser. As you have likely noticed, > there is no commercial advertising on any of the Lists or on any of the > List-related web sites such as the List Browser and List Search Engine. > > That doesn't mean they're free to operate, however. To run a first class, > high-performance, highly-available service such as the Forums at Matronics, > its take resources. These resources fall into the categories of financial > and personnel. As far as "personnel" is concerned, its a one-man show and > I perform all of the work required to operate and upgrade the Lists without > being directly compensated for my work. But that's a labor of love. The > financial resources required, on the other hand, are covered primarily > though the generous contributions of the List members. > > Direct costs include, for example, a commercial-grade T1 line Internet > connection dedicated primarily to serving the Lister Community. This T1 > Internet connection provides a high-performance, dedicated connection to > the Archive and Browsing Tools and assures the quickest, most reliable > delivery of List messages. It seems like there's always an upgrade > required and this year I've added an all new online backup system to > automatically backup all of the Lists Archives as well as provide for > complete system disaster recovery. This new system would enable me to > restore the email and/or web server systems to 100% in only a couple of > hours if one of them were to blow up. > > The number of messages processed by the Matronics Forums continues to > increase as well. In the last 12 months, there have been over 70,000 > unique messages posted across the various lists, amounting to well over 32 > MILLION messages that have been redistributed to List members in that same > period! The List web site also sees an equally high level of traffic with > some 148,000 Archive searches performed last year and a staggering 13 > million web site hits! > > During the month of November, I will be sending out a Fund Raiser reminder > message a couple of times a week and I ask for your patience and > understanding during this time. The Fund Raiser is the sole means of > support for the Lists, and the existence and longevity of the Lists hinges > directly its success. > > This year once again, Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore has provided a > number of great incentive gifts during the Fund Raiser. Andy provides > these items to me at a substantial discount and they have proven to be very > popular among the Listers. Thank you Andy for your extraordinary > generosity and support of the Lists again this year! Please visit Andy's > web site, the Builder's Bookstore: > > http://www.buildersbooks.com > > > If you use the Matronics Email Lists and enjoy the quick and easy access to > one of the best resources on the Internet for Homebuilt and General > aviation discussion forums, please make a Contribution today to support the > continued operation. Remember, its *your* Contribution that keeps these > Lists running. > > The Contribution web site is freshly updated with a list of all new > incentive gifts! Transactions are SSL secured and you can make your > Contribution using a credit card, Paypal, or a personal check. The > Contribution web site can be found at: > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > Thank you for your support!! > > Matt Dralle > Matronics Email List Administrator > > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 > 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email > http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:01 PM PST US From: "William J. Applegate" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "William J. Applegate" Hi All, I've mentioned this before. Wouldn't a manual bypass valve setup work elegantly and simply for regulating temperature? It seems to me that this has the potential to work. Put a "T", a regulatable valve and a "T" before the radiator and a simple cable to the valve and regulate accordingly. The valve could even be regulated electrically. Surely someone has thought of or done this before. Apples AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > >In a message dated 11/1/04 9:48:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, >smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes: > ><< I like looking out the win >> > > Speaking of cowl doors/flaps, I'm having a mind tossing over which is the >best flap to put behind the radiator. I'm about ready for a test flight >after the cowl mods and will probably do so without the manually operated flap >behind the rad. > I would like a flap design that when say, it was 25 % closed, the >radiator would be blocked 25%. Right now, it look like one single flap hinged at the >bottom of the rad, when open say, 25% you still have most of the rad open and >the flap is only acting as a wind diverter. You don't really start to >decrease the radiator opening until that flap is somewhere at 50% or greater shut. > Looks like almost the same situation if you use multiple vanes/shutters. >I would like to design a fail safe shutter that is more linear. If you close >it 20%, it reduces the airflow 20% etc. etc. etc. > I might be looking out the window too much on this also. I was talking >to John King about his operation. He stated he doesn't get much change in >temps until he is 50% closed. > >Don Smythe >N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:21 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Yes exactly. Lowell do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: radiator and cooling > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/2/04 6:53:30 AM Pacific Standard Time, > lcfitt@inreach.com writes: > > << > Don't know if can explain my thoughts on this so it they can be > understood - but... > > If you had multiple vanes, each a pair placed back to back so when closing > two vanes acted against each other the air flow should reduce pretty much >> > > Lowell, > Maybe hinged in a "V" shape. Hmmmm. > > Don Smythe > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582 > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:40 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: Kitfox-List: John King's Bahamas Trip - Second Progress report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" John King called in tonight to report that the flight of two made it from the Miami coast to the small town of Congo Town, Andros Island. The crew are now settling down with a mai tai along the white beaches of the Bahamas. To follow the flight, go to www.sportflight.com/bahamas. Don Pearsall