Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:27 AM - Kitfox 4 fiberglass cowlings (Michel Gordillo)
2. 02:29 AM - 582 cooling (BROSCHART)
3. 02:58 AM - Re: Cold Seizures Re: 582 cooling (shortnaked)
4. 04:22 AM - Re: MicroairCom vs Sigtronics SPA-400/400N (Fox5flyer)
5. 06:58 AM - Re: 582 cooling (Randy Daughenbaugh)
6. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: wings (Lowell Fitt)
7. 07:44 AM - Re: 582 cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Cold Seizures Re: 582 cooling (Lowell Fitt)
9. 09:54 AM - Re: 582 cooling (AV8OR27RL@cs.com)
10. 11:02 AM - Re: 582 cooling (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
11. 12:15 PM - Re: 582 cooling (AV8OR27RL@cs.com)
12. 12:28 PM - Re: 582 cooling (Torgeir Mortensen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Kitfox 4 fiberglass cowlings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel Gordillo" <michelgordillo@telefonica.net>
Does somebody knows the adress of the people that build the fiberglass parts
for Skystar, as we are not able to contact them ?
Thank you.
Michel ( Spain)
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: BROSCHART <cfbflyer@localnet.com>
i solved my 582 over heating problem with a r5295 radiator from LEAF
now temp stays at 160 in climb and cruise and only about 140 in descends
no cowling or flap just use the stick to adjust the descend and keep it
in the garage now till april
Have a good day - Charlie
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
cowl flaps are whata lot of guys seem to be talking about.. or a flap of
some kind.
just another thing to put in your routine and /or forget to do.leave closed
after decent and do a missed approach and wonder why your temp is now at
190. duh
thermo-matic controlled would be the best if feasable.
I seen a guy a few year ago on a pusher with rad mounted in front of motor
on top and he added a set of shutters in this rad and i think he was running
too cool so that is why he added them. Now inside cockpit he has a
manual control to open and shut them. I should pop over to the strip he got
it at and snap a few pics if you interesed.
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Seizures Re: Kitfox-List: 582 cooling
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/5/04 4:51:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> shortnaked@golden.net writes:
>
> << Maybe in that case Don -- you should use cowl flaps as part of your pre
> decent.>>
>
> What cowl flaps? That's what I'm working on now so that I will have cowl
> flaps just for that reason.
>
> << keeping 4 k rpm prolly will be just as well and not hammer happy (
> applying full Throttle) right after a long desent. you can shock cool a
>>
>
>
> Ahhh, Keeping about 4K is exactly what I do for normal decents now. I'll
> hold it until the numbers are made then slowly decrease to idle. Go
arounds
> start at tail up (high speed taxi) then add more and more power slowly.
No
> abrupt FULL THROTTLE go arounds for me (unless an emergency).
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: MicroairCom vs Sigtronics SPA-400/400N |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Good one Bruce. My Valcom with SPA400 has always had very little side tone
and this looks like a simple fix. If it doesn't work I can always change it
back.
This is a saver.
Darrel
>
> Hi Guys,
> If you have a Microair 760 com radio and a Sigtronics SPA-400 or SPA-400N,
> and the headset volume is low with the radio on, see the fix below sent me
> by Sigtronics Tech support. Forget the "Mod. Adj." note, as this is radio
> headset output problem.
> Cheers,
> Bruce
> ex-N194KF 582ed Kitfox IV-1200
> N321SX Sonex, Jab 3300ed, Microair radio and Sigtronics intercom
>
>
> Bruce,
>
> The "Mod Adj" is for the transmit level to the radio. The Microair 760 has
a
> low headphone output impedance. Click on
> http://www.sigtronics.com/air/pdf/spams6.pdf to download a load
modification
> sheet.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Mark Kelley
>
>
Message 5
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Don said,
"What temp ranges can you get in these switches? I would think something
around 170 for high and 155 low. I would want these to indicate well within
the
max/min coolant limits as "caution" limits not "warning" limits."
If you have coolant temp sensor on your EIS, you can set the temp ranges
anywhere you want and the EIS will let you know when it is too hot or too
cool.
Randy
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
I considered clipping the wings Speedster style and asked SS at the time
about the dihedral. I was told that it was a cosmetic issue only. The
Speedster looked better with flat wings.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: wings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Steve,
>
> >Should I turn the plane into a speedster...the manual...says the
> >speedster has no dihedral, mine does. ...will it cause any problems?
>
> I built my Model IV-1200 with Speedster wings (clipped one rib bay on
> each side) and wing tips but used the standard dihedral. It flew
> beautifully. Stalls barely broke and you really had to aggravate it
> to get a spin to start. Even then, it wanted to just fly out of the
> spin even if you held it in deliberately.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
>
>
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/6/04 6:58:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rjdaugh@rapidnet.com writes:
<< If you have coolant temp sensor on your EIS, you can set the temp ranges
anywhere you want and the EIS will let you know when it is too hot or too
cool.
Randy
>>
Randy,
Not quite, my EIS only gives a "max" temp, no "min" temp alarm. I have
that set for 180 degrees. That's the temp that is "warning" and must correctly
quickly. If I had additional switches, I would want them to show Max/Min but
in the "caution" not "warning" range. (say, 155 Min and 170 Max)
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@inreach.com>
Just a note on the cooling thing. Some have suggested that flaps are one
more thing to worry about, and the installation of a thermostatically
controlled by-pass might be the preferred method.
My thoughts: Some of us like a lot of gadgets to tell us what is
happening - fuel flow, fuel pressure, manifold pressure, EGT gauges etc.
Some have cockpit adjustable props (constant speed and variable pitch) that
help manage lots of issues. In other words a lot of us like to essentially
micro manage everything going on in our tight little environment. On the
other hand some of us like to fly like we drive - a light or lights to warn
us that something is not right and then we make adjustments to our driving /
flying to get things under control again..
From my reading the list, I have learned that most 582 pilots pay pretty
close attention to their engine conditions and I believe this is an
important factor regarding the historical reliability that this engine.
With that in mind, I can certainly understand the problem of seeing
something on the gauges that cannot be manually controlled.
I have seen the oil cooler bypass thermostat system for the 912. There are
a lot of hose clamps on that puppy and a guess would say that there is more
than a quart of extra oil to fill all that plumbing at least in the
installation I saw.
I have oil cooler flaps on my 912 - weighs about 6 oz including the control
cable. I scan infrequently - certainly not as often as I am led to believe
the 582 pilots do and have never seen the temps over the bottom of the
yellow.
Just some thoughts
Lowell
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Cold Seizures Re: Kitfox-List: 582 cooling
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/5/04 4:51:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> shortnaked@golden.net writes:
>
> << Maybe in that case Don -- you should use cowl flaps as part of your pre
> decent.>>
>
> What cowl flaps? That's what I'm working on now so that I will have cowl
> flaps just for that reason.
>
> << keeping 4 k rpm prolly will be just as well and not hammer happy (
> applying full Throttle) right after a long desent. you can shock cool a
>>
>
>
> Ahhh, Keeping about 4K is exactly what I do for normal decents now. I'll
> hold it until the numbers are made then slowly decrease to idle. Go
arounds
> start at tail up (high speed taxi) then add more and more power slowly.
No
> abrupt FULL THROTTLE go arounds for me (unless an emergency).
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AV8OR27RL@cs.com
Thought this might interest some of you. It was copied directly from the
Rotax 582 repair manual. It would appear to me that since the thermostat
senses outlet temp a thermostat would allow the coolant to drop below these limits
on the inlet side.
7.22.3) Temperature of coolant:
Radiator size and air stream to radiator must be adequate to warrant that
coolant temperature rises not above max. allowable 80 C (176 F) even at highest
ambient temperature and peak take-off performance. The mean coolant
temperature ought to be around 65 C (150 F).
Radiator surface must not be sheltered by any engine components. For
instance, only Insufficient airstream will occur in the vicinity of propeller hub.
On
installation with propeller in pusher arrangement, pay special attention to
flow rate of cooling air through radiator.
The max. temperature difference of coolant' between inlet and outlet of
radiator must not exceed 6 C (11 F) but ought to be around 4 C (7 F).
Exceeding of temperature limits or reduction of cooling airstream because of
too high flow resistance could generate steam in the cylinder head, causing
loss of coolant and leadina to enaine failure due to overheating.
Bob Locey
Model II 582UL
No thermostat
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/6/04 9:55:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, AV8OR27RL@cs.com
writes:
<< loss of coolant and leadina to enaine failure due to overheating.
Bob Locey
Model II 582UL
No thermostat
>>
Bob,
I see you indicate "no" thermostat. Back to my original question/thought
(If I can remember what it was). How do your coolant temps run in the
winter? What do you do to control the temps (rad flap, etc.etc.) I've never run
mine without the thermostat so don't have any history.
If you are operating and meeting the specs you just posted from Rotax
then a thermostat is not needed. This is what I'm looking for.
Also, you quoted the input/output temps should be about 11 degrees. I
doubt if anybody or very few have ever measured that. As soon as I get running
again, I'm going to strap and insulate my CHT probes to the two alum pipes and
see what I get? I think running a thermostat will make that 11 degrees
harder to maintain if not impossible. Just a guess.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AV8OR27RL@cs.com
Don
I have to agree with you about no one being able to maintain the 11 Deg.
inlet outlet difference. I just thought some would like to hear what Rotax had
to say about it. My engine was installed without a thermostat. When I went
looking for the reason I found the 11 Deg. thing.
I don't have a heater so I don't fly when it gets very cold but I have
never had a problem maintaining the 140 deg thing. (I do decent at 4000 RPM to
insure adequate oiling.) I have had a lot of trouble keeping it cool in the
summer. The belly mounted radiator thing. Lowered the radiator and it helped but
I intend to build a scoop with a cable controlled door this winter.
I did have an interesting thing happen whale practicing engine out
stalls. After about 1 1/2 minuets of engine out the engine had cooled enough to
require the choke to get it running. This was after getting the prop windmailing
on a 75 Deg day. I brought the power up easy and let it warm up before applying
full power. I don't recommend this at low altitude of course.
Will be interesting to hear what you find out about the inlet outlet temps.
Bob Locey
Message 12
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Right Bob,
By using just a thermostat, it's impossible to stay within these
limitations. That's why I'm not using a thermostat. I'm just taping the
rad., according to the OAT (outside air temperature).
However, to stay within these limits, it may be necessary to use both, a
thermostat and radiator blind!
------------
In an aircraft, the engine is working much harder than ANY standard car
ever will, besides - "any" engine failure in a car is survivable...
------------
Now, about thermostats!
There is two different failures concerning the thermostats, when the
spring bridge break - the thermostat open for "full" flow. This is the
worst one, if not understood - cause of "immediate" of cold seizure.
OK., a little more explanation here.
When using a thermostat only (esp., in winter season) , the max.,
differential temperature is way exceeded, I.E., the outlet from the
radiator might be at very low temperature. If the "spring bridge" in your
thermostat fails, cold water is immediately forced into the barrel "water
jacket".
Did you know that this "spring bridge" is "riveted", -and that it's the
riveting that fails and open the valve. Just a mechanical failure.
The other one, is a faulty (internal leakage) temperature cartridge(the
sensor itself). This kind of failure will prevent proper opening of
thermostat. Most of this (I've seen) kind start gradually, so, this one
gives "a kind" of warning.. But may also occur that sudden, but "kind" of
seldom.
As the water have such a high specific "heating capacity" (4200 J/(kg.K)),
a change in throttle setting would not have an "instant" change at the
water temperature(as the water absorbs the energy).
Lead's specific "heating capacity" is "only" (130 J/(kg.K)) and aluminums
specific "heating capacity" is (900 J/(kg.K)), so, yes, the water is an
amazing fluidic.
My by-pass line is the heater, if the temp., go over 170, I start the
heater fan -and the temp decrease 5-10 deg. By using this method, I can
control my water temp. If the water temp. go low, say 145 - then I'll use
any trick to keep the engine working a little harder. Fwd. slip to right
side and using engine to keep the altitude.
OK., folks, this is not standard proc., this is just a way of keeping
control- in case.. The other is to land.
For those skeptical :) , my Kitfox is built far -far North (79 degree.
North), and has been flying most of it's mileage up there, in the COLD
without a thermostat but using gun tape.
Regards
Torgeir.
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:53:35 EST, <AV8OR27RL@cs.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AV8OR27RL@cs.com
>
> Thought this might interest some of you. It was copied directly from
> the
> Rotax 582 repair manual. It would appear to me that since the thermostat
> senses outlet temp a thermostat would allow the coolant to drop below
> these limits
> on the inlet side.
>
> 7.22.3) Temperature of coolant:
> Radiator size and air stream to radiator must be adequate to warrant that
> coolant temperature rises not above max. allowable 80 C (176 F) even at
> highest
> ambient temperature and peak take-off performance. The mean coolant
> temperature ought to be around 65 C (150 F).
> Radiator surface must not be sheltered by any engine components. For
> instance, only Insufficient airstream will occur in the vicinity of
> propeller hub. On
> installation with propeller in pusher arrangement, pay special attention
> to
> flow rate of cooling air through radiator.
> The max. temperature difference of coolant' between inlet and outlet of
> radiator must not exceed 6 C (11 F) but ought to be around 4 C (7 F).
> Exceeding of temperature limits or reduction of cooling airstream
> because of
> too high flow resistance could generate steam in the cylinder head,
> causing
> loss of coolant and leadina to enaine failure due to overheating.
>
> Bob Locey
> Model II 582UL
> No thermostat
>
>
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