Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:15 AM - Re: Re: grove gear and brake line (Kerry Skyring)
2. 02:30 AM - [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? (Matt Dralle)
3. 03:15 AM - Fuel gravity flow (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
4. 04:39 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (Jose M. Toro)
5. 04:44 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (Jose M. Toro)
6. 05:56 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
7. 06:06 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (Jose M. Toro)
8. 06:28 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (shortnaked)
9. 06:50 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (David Savener)
10. 07:17 AM - Re: EA-81 Cylinder pressure (Rick)
11. 07:25 AM - Re: Fuel gravity flow (Rick)
12. 07:29 AM - Re: EA-81 Cylinder pressure (Rick)
13. 07:58 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (Jose M. Toro)
14. 08:18 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (shortnaked)
15. 08:26 AM - Re: About the fuel pump... (Jose M. Toro)
16. 08:51 AM - Re: About the fuel pump... (shortnaked)
17. 09:15 AM - Re: Fuel gravity flow (Bruce Harrington)
18. 09:17 AM - Re: About the fuel pump... (Bruce Harrington)
19. 09:42 AM - Re: About the fuel pump... (shortnaked)
20. 09:54 AM - Re: About the fuel pump... (Jose M. Toro)
21. 10:12 AM - SV: About the fuel pump... (Michel Verheughe)
22. 10:27 AM - Re: SV: About the fuel pump... (Jose M. Toro)
23. 10:56 AM - SV: SV: About the fuel pump... (Michel Verheughe)
24. 12:57 PM - Re: Fuel gravity flow (kurt schrader)
25. 01:25 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (kurt schrader)
26. 03:38 PM - Re backup pump (Rex & Jan Shaw)
27. 03:39 PM - Coolant for 912 (Jimmie Blackwell)
28. 04:24 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
29. 04:37 PM - Re: Insurance Company (Howard Firm)
30. 06:04 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (David Savener)
31. 06:16 PM - Re: Re backup pump (Don and Rex) (Jose M. Toro)
32. 06:24 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 ...(David) (Jose M. Toro)
33. 06:31 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). (Jose M. Toro)
34. 07:07 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected eng... (Bruce Harrington)
35. 08:45 PM - Re: Fuel gravity flow (Rick)
36. 09:05 PM - Spar Cleaner/Degreaser (Andy)
37. 09:26 PM - Re: Spar Cleaner/Degreaser (Jimmie Blackwell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: grove gear and brake line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" <kerryskyring@hotmail.com>
Thanks Darrel. That's exactly what we will do. Kerry.
>I used 3M epoxy. Ran a thin bead down the groove, taped the line in with
>masking tape til it set up then when tape removed it's difficult to tell
>what's holding it in there. Been there for over 4 years now and still
>holding fine.
>Darrel
>
>
> >
> > While everyone is writing about the Grove gear..
> >
> > We are wondering how to secure the brake line (the nylon hose) into the
> > channel that runs down the aft side of the grove gear. I think the
>manual
> > recommends using tape but we have polished the
> > aluminium and want to stay with this rather than paint it and tape would
> > look out of place on polished aluminium. I tried some silicon in the
>channel
> > and then laying the line into it but was not happy with the grip. What
>have
> > others done?
> >
> > Kerry
> > PS Yesterday we hung the prop and fitted the spinner and cowls and then
> > stood back and admired the lovely lines. The central European weather is
> > currently "flying feindlich" but "building freundlich."
> >
> > ><shilohcom@c-magic.com>
> > > >
> > > > Lot of answers and most seem reasonable. I had mine polished and
> > >powder
> > >coated clear. Looks like chrome. Bob U.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > http://messenger.msn.com/
> >
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
I was thinking that perhaps I should explain why I have a Fund Raiser and
also take the opportunity to express why I think the List Services here
provide a far better experience than the commercial equivalents.
I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with
running a high performance email list site such as this one. With the
annual support from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I
have found I can run the entire site without having to inflect any of the
members with those annoying banner ads flashing up all the time trying to
sell Toner Cartridge Refills or other garbage nobody wants or needs. From
the comments I've received over the years regarding the Lists, the great
majority of the members really appreciate the non-commercialism of my List
systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter once a year to encourage
members to support the Lists.
I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer a great many
benefits over the commercial equivalents in a number of ways. The first
feature I believe to be particularly significant is that you *cannot*
receive a computer v*rus from any of my Lists directly. I've been on a few
other List servers and have been unfortunate enough to download infected
files people have innocently or not-so-innocently included with their
posts. This just can't happen with my Lists; each incoming message is
filtered and attachments stripped off prior to posting. I provide a Photo
and File Share feature that allows members to share files and bitmaps with
other members and everyone can be assured that these files will be
prescanned for any sort of v*rus before they are posted. Safe and
simple. Also, with this photo and file sharing technique, the Archives
don't get loaded up with a huge amounts of bitmap "data" that slows the
Archive Search times.
Another feature of this system is the extensive List Archives that are
available for download, browsing, and searching. The Archives go all the
way back to the very beginning of each List and with the super fast Search
Engine, the huge size of the Archives is a non-issue in quickly finding the
data you're looking for. Another feature of the Archives, in my opinion,
is that they have been primarily stripped of all the useless email header
garbage that seems to build up in a typical email thread.
I have received an extremely positive response from Listers regarding the
List Browse feature and the consensus is that the format and ease of use is
outstanding. Members report that having the previous 7 days worth of
messages on line for easy browsing and sorting is hugely beneficial. And
again, as with the real time distribution of List email, the messages are
stripped of all the unnecessary email headers and potentially dangerous
v*ruses.
I've been running email Lists and services under the matronics.com domain
since about 1989 starting with RV-List and 30 guys who I knew and who where
also building RVs. It has grown into well over 50 different
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I have to admit running these Lists is a labor of love and I hope it shows
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Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
<<
Well-, we are much back to the basic, the "gravity" system! This might
be the only one, simple enough to work in any case, well, -except for
those aerobatics ...
You'll Know , the system only delivering fuel - based on the gravity -
is, always the number one, at last, for me. :) >>
Torgeir,
If you are talking about "gravity" only (no pumps at all), we tried
that.....If I recall correctly, JR once plumbed his engine up and bypassed the
pulse pump (gravity only). He was able to run the engine at low speed but the
mixture went lean as he advanced the throttle.
It would be nice to come up with a system that relied on gravity only.
No pumps, no pulse line. On the other hand, the backup electric pump proved
worth while on the clogged filter situation.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 4
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b=D8X7X7B84HnXRa6NmkZQEddVhL4tCJFpCw5d4ddcXYccKcK/ZLh7mfC3Th9BJSBwfGLT9DipXqR16BNl4jPq6sz3BMgAH/7TvhQhQsfkoeKnDFriyv5+9dvEJVkI8in+qMpDrO2X26PLMI2TRi63hPiljhvzdxBbZQJBDpEBy/Q=
;
| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Don:
Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by using
the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through the
other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The pressure
gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3 pounds
no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power), pressure
increases to 5 pounds. I always use the pump for take off and landings,
but occassionaly forget to turn it off, and it does not make difference in terms
of fuel pressure.
I use the filter between the fuel tank and the aluminum manifold that divides the
fuel input into the two pumps. As I said in a previous e-mail, I do not recommend
Purolator filters since I have seen those fail. I use a clear "Volky
style" filter that I get at the auto parts store. By the way, the fuel pressure
gauge also came from an auto parts store.
Jose
Ron <rliebmann@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron"
I have a fuel filter between the fuel pump and the carbs. I also installed
the Facet pump back in 1990 when I was building my Fox. One time I was
taking off trees with a passenger on board when all of a sudden I lost fuel
pressure and RPM. This was confirmed by one glance at the fuel pressure
gauge which read zero. I immediately turned on the Facet pump and had an
instant increase of RPM back to full power. Without the pump, I may not be
here now.
After I got back to my home base, five miles away, I checked the filters and
found them both restricted. Turned out that fibers from the glass in the
tanks broke free and plugged things up. The Facet pump forced fuel past the
restrictions to save the day. I will never fly without a back-up pump.
Ron N55KF Mod 2/582
> <<
> Do not use the faucet pump in serie with the mechanical pump!!! The fuel
> pressure will add, and you could have a gas overflow, which could drop to
the
> muffler. The right way is to do it in parallel. To do this, I got from
> Aircraft Spruce two manifolds >>
>
> Agree with not putting the pump in series but, I always had difficulty in
> understanding the redundancy safety factor of an addition electric pump
for the
> 582. About the only thing that can go wrong with the originally installed
> pulse pump would be the rupture of the diaphragm. If the diaphragm
ruptures fuel
> will flow into the engine case through the pulse line. If you switch on
the
> back up electric, fuel will only flow faster to the crankcase. That fuel
> entering the crankcase will kill the engine anyway. If you add a backup
pump, it
> needs to have the capability of complete isolation of the pulse pump. Not
sure
> how to do this.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Kurt:
There are two kinds of Puralotar fuel pumps. I use the one with less pressure
(I guess it is 3 to 5 pounds, not sure). With that one, you don't need a regulator.
If you use the pumps in serie, can you guarantee that the electric pump wil be
able to pull or push gas through the Mikuni pump if it gets obstructed?
Jose
kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
Dave,
I put a Spectre reguator in my fuel system, but never
got to run the engine with it. While testing the fuel
system with 1 or 2 pumps running, the regulator failed
closed. When I disassembled it, I found that there
was no way to fail-safe protect it. My failed
regulator can and did shut off all fuel flow.
You might check yours for the same problem. If yours
is fail-safe and will bypasss fuel after failure, I
would like to know the model so that I can try it on
my plane.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI
--- David Savener wrote:
> I read what Mike Stratman from California Power
> systems had to say. He thinks either way (series or
> parallel) is OK providing that fuel will flow with
> either pump working.
>
> Mine was much easier to install in series. I went
> through the gaskolator, the electric facet pump, a
> Purolator pressure regulator, a filter, then the
> Mikuny pump, then to the carburetors.
>
> I welcome any comments, because I overthink
> everything.
>
> Dave S
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
<< Don:
Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through
the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The
pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power),
pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out, the
back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs but
seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
memory...
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Don:
I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but for sure
it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric pump will
keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
Jose
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
<< Don:
Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through
the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The
pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power),
pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out, the
back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs but
seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
memory...
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in CASE
?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
injected eng...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
> Don:
>
> I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but for
sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric pump
will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
>
> Jose
>
> AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << Don:
>
> Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
> using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
through
> the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine.
The
> pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
> pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
power),
> pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
>
> I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
> protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out,
the
> back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs
but
> seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
> memory...
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 08:49:22 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" <david_savener@msn.com>
Thanks for the comments. This confirms my thought that I need a backup. I have
a friend that says the electric backup saved his bacon on two occasions. His
was in series.
Is your fuel pump in series or parallel?
Since there are two fuel lines, one feeding each carb, coming out of the Mikuni
pump, it gets way more complicated on my airplane if I go with the parallel system.
Also. I keep thinking that since a liquid cannot be compressed, I see no way that
the pressures produced by the two pumps could be more than that produced by
one. I have installed a fuel pressure regulator after the electric pump and
before the Mikuni.
Dave S
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron<mailto:rliebmann@comcast.net>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net<mailto:rliebmann@comcast.net>>
I have a fuel filter between the fuel pump and the carbs. I also installed
the Facet pump back in 1990 when I was building my Fox. One time I was
taking off trees with a passenger on board when all of a sudden I lost fuel
pressure and RPM. This was confirmed by one glance at the fuel pressure
gauge which read zero. I immediately turned on the Facet pump and had an
instant increase of RPM back to full power. Without the pump, I may not be
here now.
After I got back to my home base, five miles away, I checked the filters and
found them both restricted. Turned out that fibers from the glass in the
tanks broke free and plugged things up. The Facet pump forced fuel past the
restrictions to save the day. I will never fly without a back-up pump.
Ron N55KF Mod 2/582
> <<
> Do not use the faucet pump in serie with the mechanical pump!!! The fuel
> pressure will add, and you could have a gas overflow, which could drop to
the
> muffler. The right way is to do it in parallel. To do this, I got from
> Aircraft Spruce two manifolds >>
>
> Agree with not putting the pump in series but, I always had difficulty in
> understanding the redundancy safety factor of an addition electric pump
for the
> 582. About the only thing that can go wrong with the originally installed
> pulse pump would be the rupture of the diaphragm. If the diaphragm
ruptures fuel
> will flow into the engine case through the pulse line. If you switch on
the
> back up electric, fuel will only flow faster to the crankcase. That fuel
> entering the crankcase will kill the engine anyway. If you add a backup
pump, it
> needs to have the capability of complete isolation of the pulse pump. Not
sure
> how to do this.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | EA-81 Cylinder pressure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
The differential of 10 percent is an accepted standard, but the closer the
better. Differences between each back is somewhat better that on the same
side for many reasons.
My personal opinion is you are running to rich at 1100, 1350 too 1400 for
the Subaru engine, cleaner and better performance and less fowling ect. In
cruise the egts should be more than about 50 apart.
If you have the later tanks, non-fiberglass you can and I would recommend
auto fuel, much cleaner but not a lot cheaper any more. I need the premium.
Unless your going for the auto fuel I don't think I would waste my money on
the IR plugs. Performance will be undetectable.
Rick
(back up battery and associated isolator almost wired in)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Smathers
Subject: Kitfox-List: EA-81 Cylinder pressure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jeff Smathers <jsmathers@cybcon.com>
Hi all,
I have a standard NSI EA-81 engine and have about 275 hrs on the engine.
The airplane is in for the winter, mostly for financial reasons but, it
gives
me
a good chance to do a thorough check up on it.
I was checking cylinder pressure and measured a significant difference in
my peak measured pressures: Cold cranking 12 revolutions
Left Front Left Rear Right Front Right Rear
142 145 127 132
My right side EGT always runs about 75-100 degrees hotter and I always
lean about 1050 - 1100 on the RT side.
My plugs look like they are burning the 100LL OK except for some higher
erosion on the RT side plugs. I will be using the $$ Indium $$ plugs next
year.
1. Should I run automotive fuel instead of 100LL?
2. What is the maximum pressure differences that should be between
cylinders?
Thanks for the answers I know will be returned !
Jeff Smathers Molalla, OR.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Don, that is correct. The Ellison will provide adequate fuel at lower power
setting but unless you have one of the really boys a 4 or 5 you need the
extra pressure to provide more fuel at high power settings. In fact with my
new engine I may be doing a delicate enlargement of the metering delivery
tube hole to provide even a bit more. I am not sure but I guess I could do a
pressure test to at what pressure the seat is bypassed. Could cause damage
to the seat so I am not sure I want to do that. Ellison wont sell parts and
require you send it to them. Don't like that much so may be going fuel
injection on the next set of heads, off point but an issue for me. Good luck
on you fuel system Torgeir.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
AlbertaIV@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel gravity flow
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
<<
Well-, we are much back to the basic, the "gravity" system! This might
be the only one, simple enough to work in any case, well, -except for
those aerobatics ...
You'll Know , the system only delivering fuel - based on the gravity -
is, always the number one, at last, for me. :) >>
Torgeir,
If you are talking about "gravity" only (no pumps at all), we tried
that.....If I recall correctly, JR once plumbed his engine up and bypassed
the
pulse pump (gravity only). He was able to run the engine at low speed but
the
mixture went lean as he advanced the throttle.
It would be nice to come up with a system that relied on gravity only.
No pumps, no pulse line. On the other hand, the backup electric pump proved
worth while on the clogged filter situation.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 12
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| Subject: | EA-81 Cylinder pressure |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Correction...should read egts should not be more than about 50 apart. Sorry
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EA-81 Cylinder pressure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
The differential of 10 percent is an accepted standard, but the closer the
better. Differences between each back is somewhat better that on the same
side for many reasons.
My personal opinion is you are running to rich at 1100, 1350 too 1400 for
the Subaru engine, cleaner and better performance and less fowling ect. In
cruise the egts should be more than about 50 apart.
If you have the later tanks, non-fiberglass you can and I would recommend
auto fuel, much cleaner but not a lot cheaper any more. I need the premium.
Unless your going for the auto fuel I don't think I would waste my money on
the IR plugs. Performance will be undetectable.
Rick
(back up battery and associated isolator almost wired in)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Smathers
Subject: Kitfox-List: EA-81 Cylinder pressure
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jeff Smathers <jsmathers@cybcon.com>
Hi all,
I have a standard NSI EA-81 engine and have about 275 hrs on the engine.
The airplane is in for the winter, mostly for financial reasons but, it
gives
me
a good chance to do a thorough check up on it.
I was checking cylinder pressure and measured a significant difference in
my peak measured pressures: Cold cranking 12 revolutions
Left Front Left Rear Right Front Right Rear
142 145 127 132
My right side EGT always runs about 75-100 degrees hotter and I always
lean about 1050 - 1100 on the RT side.
My plugs look like they are burning the 100LL OK except for some higher
erosion on the RT side plugs. I will be using the $$ Indium $$ plugs next
year.
1. Should I run automotive fuel instead of 100LL?
2. What is the maximum pressure differences that should be between
cylinders?
Thanks for the answers I know will be returned !
Jeff Smathers Molalla, OR.
Message 13
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;
| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
What about an extra pair of wing? Remember Dan Denney's biplane Kitfox?
shortnaked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in CASE
?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
injected eng...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
>
> Don:
>
> I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but for
sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric pump
will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
>
> Jose
>
> AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << Don:
>
> Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
> using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
through
> the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine.
The
> pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
> pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
power),
> pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
>
> I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
> protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out,
the
> back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs
but
> seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
> memory...
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
lol the bi plane yup
kitfox stagger wing. LOL
i had a fuel pump trouble other day full rpm after 30 seconds
starvation would occur.
replaced impulse line --was cracked under clamp --some dufus had put on
auto fuel line.
seems fine now although only climbed for 2 mins now test so far due to low
ceilings got 1300 fpm tho :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
injected eng...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
> What about an extra pair of wing? Remember Dan Denney's biplane Kitfox?
>
> shortnaked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted
by: "shortnaked"
>
> seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
>
>
> next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in CASE
> ?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jose M. Toro"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
> injected eng...
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> >
> > Don:
> >
> > I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but
for
> sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric
pump
> will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
> >
> > Jose
> >
> > AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
> >
> > << Don:
> >
> > Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation
by
> > using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
> through
> > the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine.
> The
> > pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading
3
> > pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
> power),
> > pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
> >
> > I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is
no
> > protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed
out,
> the
> > back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the
specs
> but
> > seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54?????
Bad
> > memory...
> >
> > Don Smythe
> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> >
> >
> > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > Kitfox II/582
> > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 15
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
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;
| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Now being serious, the only backup system that I have in my Kitfox beside the dual
CDI, which is standard, is the electric fuel pump.
Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual flaperons,
and dual elevators???
Jose
shortnaked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
lol the bi plane yup
kitfox stagger wing. LOL
i had a fuel pump trouble other day full rpm after 30 seconds
starvation would occur.
replaced impulse line --was cracked under clamp --some dufus had put on
auto fuel line.
seems fine now although only climbed for 2 mins now test so far due to low
ceilings got 1300 fpm tho :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
injected eng...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
>
> What about an extra pair of wing? Remember Dan Denney's biplane Kitfox?
>
> shortnaked wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted
by: "shortnaked"
>
> seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
>
>
> next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in CASE
> ?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jose M. Toro"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
> injected eng...
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> >
> > Don:
> >
> > I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but
for
> sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric
pump
> will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
> >
> > Jose
> >
> > AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
> >
> > << Don:
> >
> > Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation
by
> > using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
> through
> > the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine.
> The
> > pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading
3
> > pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
> power),
> > pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
> >
> > I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is
no
> > protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed
out,
> the
> > back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the
specs
> but
> > seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54?????
Bad
> > memory...
> >
> > Don Smythe
> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> >
> >
> > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > Kitfox II/582
> > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
"Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual
flaperons, and dual elevators???"
the above nothing to do with a backup system
fuel pump sure that is a back up
how many have experienced actuall fuel pump failures tho ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: About the fuel pump...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
> Now being serious, the only backup system that I have in my Kitfox beside
the dual CDI, which is standard, is the electric fuel pump.
>
> Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual
flaperons, and dual elevators???
>
> Jose
> shortnaked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
>
> lol the bi plane yup
>
> kitfox stagger wing. LOL
>
>
> i had a fuel pump trouble other day full rpm after 30 seconds
> starvation would occur.
>
> replaced impulse line --was cracked under clamp --some dufus had put on
> auto fuel line.
>
> seems fine now although only climbed for 2 mins now test so far due to low
> ceilings got 1300 fpm tho :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jose M. Toro"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
> injected eng...
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> >
> > What about an extra pair of wing? Remember Dan Denney's biplane Kitfox?
> >
> > shortnaked wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted
> by: "shortnaked"
> >
> > seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
> >
> >
> > next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in
CASE
> > ?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jose M. Toro"
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582
oil
> > injected eng...
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> > >
> > > Don:
> > >
> > > I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but
> for
> > sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric
> pump
> > will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
> > >
> > > Jose
> > >
> > > AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > > jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
> > >
> > > << Don:
> > >
> > > Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the
isolation
> by
> > > using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
> > through
> > > the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the
engine.
> > The
> > > pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps
reading
> 3
> > > pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
> > power),
> > > pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
> > >
> > > I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is
> no
> > > protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed
> out,
> > the
> > > back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the
> specs
> > but
> > > seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54?????
> Bad
> > > memory...
> > >
> > > Don Smythe
> > > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> > >
> > >
> > > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > > Kitfox II/582
> > > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > Kitfox II/582
> > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
My Sonex with AeroCarb runs on gravity only. The AeroCarb is a Throttle
Body Injection system with no float bowls. The tank is under the glare
shield, so head pressure is not great. With full tank, I can climb at 1500
fpm with the Jab 3300. Steep angle at 100-120 mph.
I could use an aux fuel pump for half empty tank climbouts during flights
around the area, but instead just reduce throttle on climbout.
The Jab 3300 uses about the same fuel in cruise as a 582, 5.2-5.4 gph.
Kitfoxes have quite a bit of head pressure with the tanks in the high wings,
except for high angles of climb.
Hmmmmm.
bh
> Torgeir,
> If you are talking about "gravity" only (no pumps at all), we tried
> that.....If I recall correctly, JR once plumbed his engine up and bypassed
> the
> pulse pump (gravity only). He was able to run the engine at low speed but
> the
> mixture went lean as he advanced the throttle.
> It would be nice to come up with a system that relied on gravity only.
> No pumps, no pulse line. On the other hand, the backup electric pump
> proved
> worth while on the clogged filter situation.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
I had none in 800+ hrs. Rebuilt the Mikuni about every 300 hours.
bh
> "Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual
> flaperons, and dual elevators???"
>
> the above nothing to do with a backup system
>
> fuel pump sure that is a back up
>
> how many have experienced actuall fuel pump failures tho ?
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
point well taken Bruce :)
<I had none in 800+ hrs. Rebuilt the Mikuni about every 300 hours.
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: About the fuel pump...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
>
> I had none in 800+ hrs. Rebuilt the Mikuni about every 300 hours.
> bh
>
> > "Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals,
dual
> > flaperons, and dual elevators???"
> >
> > the above nothing to do with a backup system
> >
> > fuel pump sure that is a back up
> >
> > how many have experienced actuall fuel pump failures tho ?
>
>
Message 20
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b=AzNVXGpBz85hY8fBw6VdRJqCZZkXVSJm/tDdSJXW48Qm6teSMobEoMSq6108S+/V+Ah7W69paNqGHJ0XH8Nv8IWk64UUX/2jphvxCNB5EZLbSRP3ptiHwJLQehpr5SlvAslklD7y+RmAHEca/yvabS0lKWSR7PffiG/z3D8Aff8=
;
| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Sorry for the poor joke (I forgot to mention dual wheels and tires)!
A friend of mine had a Mikuni fuel pump failure in his 582 powered Rans S-12.
It happens that his passenger that day was my wife, which was pregnant of our
five years old daughter. That is why I'm so pushy about this subject! Since
that day, we both use back-up fuel pumps. I went straight to the parallel pump
configuration, and he originally went for the in-series pump. Mine never had
a problem. His, with the electric pump on, would increase fuel pressure above
5 pounds, and would spill gas from the carburator bowls. He then decided to
copy my parallel installation. No problem after that. That is why I insist
on the parallel configuration!
I will be soon in the process of switching to a Jabiru engine. I have no idea
of what is the standard fuel pump on that engine. However, I know for sure that
I will use a parallel, electric, backup fuel pump.
Jose
aked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
"Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual
flaperons, and dual elevators???"
the above nothing to do with a backup system
fuel pump sure that is a back up
how many have experienced actuall fuel pump failures tho ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jose M. Toro"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: About the fuel pump...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
>
> Now being serious, the only backup system that I have in my Kitfox beside
the dual CDI, which is standard, is the electric fuel pump.
>
> Should I mention dual seat, dual control stick, dual rudder pedals, dual
flaperons, and dual elevators???
>
> Jose
> shortnaked wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
>
> lol the bi plane yup
>
> kitfox stagger wing. LOL
>
>
> i had a fuel pump trouble other day full rpm after 30 seconds
> starvation would occur.
>
> replaced impulse line --was cracked under clamp --some dufus had put on
> auto fuel line.
>
> seems fine now although only climbed for 2 mins now test so far due to low
> ceilings got 1300 fpm tho :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jose M. Toro"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil
> injected eng...
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> >
> > What about an extra pair of wing? Remember Dan Denney's biplane Kitfox?
> >
> > shortnaked wrote:--> Kitfox-List message posted
> by: "shortnaked"
> >
> > seems to me the fuel pump is not the weakest part of the 582
> >
> >
> > next thing ya know everyone gonna want to have a 2 nd engine JUST in
CASE
> > ?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jose M. Toro"
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582
oil
> > injected eng...
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro"
> > >
> > > Don:
> > >
> > > I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but
> for
> > sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric
> pump
> > will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
> > >
> > > Jose
> > >
> > > AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > > jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
> > >
> > > << Don:
> > >
> > > Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the
isolation
> by
> > > using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow
> > through
> > > the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the
engine.
> > The
> > > pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps
reading
> 3
> > > pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full
> > power),
> > > pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
> > >
> > > I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is
> no
> > > protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed
> out,
> > the
> > > back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the
> specs
> > but
> > > seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54?????
> Bad
> > > memory...
> > >
> > > Don Smythe
> > > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> > >
> > >
> > > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > > Kitfox II/582
> > > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> > Kitfox II/582
> > "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
> Jose M. Toro, P.E.
> Kitfox II/582
> "A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Jose M. Toro [jose_m_toro@yahoo.com]
> I will be soon in the process of switching to a Jabiru engine. I have no idea
of what
> is the standard fuel pump on that engine. However, I know for sure that I will
use a
> parallel, electric, backup fuel pump.
This is one of the first question I asked my Norwegian Jabiru dealer, Jose. He
said that, with my wing tanks, I won't need a back-up pump. But I haven't installed
the engine yet and I take his words with a grain of salt. I also know that
you intend to rebuild your wings with new tanks. We'll cross that bridge when
we meet it, my friend.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 22
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;
| Subject: | Re: About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Michel:
Does this means just gravity? If that is the case, then it won't be a parallel
pump but an electric pump with a bypass, just in case...
Saludos!
Jose
Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
> From: Jose M. Toro [jose_m_toro@yahoo.com]
> I will be soon in the process of switching to a Jabiru engine. I have no idea
of what
> is the standard fuel pump on that engine. However, I know for sure that I will
use a
> parallel, electric, backup fuel pump.
This is one of the first question I asked my Norwegian Jabiru dealer, Jose. He
said that, with my wing tanks, I won't need a back-up pump. But I haven't installed
the engine yet and I take his words with a grain of salt. I also know that
you intend to rebuild your wings with new tanks. We'll cross that bridge when
we meet it, my friend.
Cheers,
Michel
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 23
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| Subject: | About the fuel pump... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Jose M. Toro [jose_m_toro@yahoo.com]
> Does this means just gravity? If that is the case, then it won't be a parallel
pump
> but an electric pump with a bypass, just in case...
I am not sure what it means, Jose, I am fumbling in the dark, learning "poco a
poco" everyday, just like you. My understanding is that the Jabiru has a fuel
pump in the engine, activated by the crankshaft (like my marine diesel engine)
and that, in case of failure, gravity is enough to feed the carb.
If my Jabiru agent knows what he is talking about, he should be right because otherwise,
... he missed a chance to sell me an electrical fuel pump! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 24
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| Subject: | Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
I wish I had fuel injection now.
It would be interesting to see what you come up with
if you do install an injection system. I don't know.
Is there one already available for the EA-81?
I anticipated a problem with the single electric pump
system NSI uses and added a backup during
construction. Sure enough, I found one such failure
in a KF crash when I checked the records while
building.
The problem happened when on takeoff and at 100%
throttle. In this case, the wire came off the pump
and the pilot got 100% air and 60% fuel. The engine
went "bang" (lean backfire?) and quit with no time to
troubleshoot and restart at a lower throttle setting
before it reached earth. Lost an airplane due to a
broken wire.
I also have a problem with my carb going lean, even at
full rich, when at certain throttle and rpm settings.
To stay at or below 1450 egt, I have to stay out of
this power range, which just happens to be upper
cruise power. Running 4-6 gph at 3300 rpm works well
though. Smooth and quiet. It gets progressively
leaner as rpm goes up.
If your spray bar drilling works, please let us know.
The problem must be common.
Kurt S.
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> Don, that is correct. The Ellison will provide
> adequate fuel at lower power
> setting but unless you have one of the really boys a
> 4 or 5 you need the
> extra pressure to provide more fuel at high power
> settings. In fact with my
> new engine I may be doing a delicate enlargement of
> the metering delivery
> tube hole to provide even a bit more. I am not sure
> but I guess I could do a
> pressure test to at what pressure the seat is
> bypassed. Could cause damage
> to the seat so I am not sure I want to do that.
> Ellison wont sell parts and
> require you send it to them. Don't like that much so
> may be going fuel
> injection on the next set of heads, off point but an
> issue for me. Good luck
> on you fuel system Torgeir.
>
> Rick
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Jose,
I don't know about the Mikuni pump since both mine are
Facet. Those are suppose to bypass easily if failed,
but blockage is always a possible problem.
Peter G has a very nicely arranged parallel pump
system shown on his web site. I went series for
simplicity and to avoid the large number of fittings
and check valves in the parallel system. Thought I
might save 1/2 lb and a leak or two, but don't know.
The main series problem is pressure changes. I had
two 3 psi pumps, but neither pump could hold the
pressure at high power. One pump alone could drop to
1+ psi. I needed both on in flight for good egt's,
but then I could overpressure the carb at low power.
At least a single pump failure was not "critical".
To avoid blockage, a truely redundant system would
have to be parallel from the header tank to the carb
including 2 shutoffs in case one side leaks. 2 header
tank outlets, 2 shutoffs, 2 filters, 2 pumps, 2 check
valves, all dual lines, then gascolator (s), pressure
meter (s), fuel flow meter systems (s).... Otherwise
a leak or blockage can still hit a parallel system
where it is not redundant. When does it end? And the
weight.
I am still not happy with my system, but I will have
to wait until I see a better way for me. What works
best for one doesn't always work best for another.
Kurt S.
--- "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kurt:
>
> There are two kinds of Puralotar fuel pumps. I use
> the one with less pressure (I guess it is 3 to 5
> pounds, not sure). With that one, you don't need a
> regulator.
>
> If you use the pumps in serie, can you guarantee
> that the electric pump wil be able to pull or push
> gas through the Mikuni pump if it gets obstructed?
>
> Jose
>
> kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
>
> Dave,
>
> I put a Spectre reguator in my fuel system, but
> never
> got to run the engine with it. While testing the
> fuel
> system with 1 or 2 pumps running, the regulator
> failed
> closed. When I disassembled it, I found that there
> was no way to fail-safe protect it. My failed
> regulator can and did shut off all fuel flow.
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 26
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Guy's re this backup pump, I think a lot of good points are being made but
we need some system devised that answers all or most of the problems brought
up.
I have always understood that pumps in series add pressuires. Let's assume
each pump gives 3 lbs per square inch pressure. Now 3 lbs is fine on our
carbs in say a 582 but 6lbs will probably cause the needle and seat to leak
giving at the least a rich mixture. So first we need the pumps in parrallel
not series. It could be a case of outright flooding too.
Next we have the problem with a ruptured Diaphram in the Mikuni pump that
Don brought up. This will flood the motor due to sucking fuel into the
crankcase through the pulse line. Therefore we need to be able to both stop
that event if it happens and use our backup pump instead.
Re blocked filters. If we could bypass these when that happens it would
again save the day.
Right I think that's most of the troubles addressed. Sound too complicated
to solve all this in one go ? I don't think so ! Here's my idea but it's
open for discussion to evolve a good system.
If we have two wing tanks feeding into a header tank with a valve on each
line is a good idea. Our breather needs to go from the top of the header
tank to the top inside of a wing tank. We then take TWO lines rather than
one out of the bottom of the header tank and use a filter on each line.
One line goes to one pump and the other to the other pump. In the case of a
Rotax 2 stroke one pump is the Mikuni pulse pump and the other is the backup
pump.[ Facet electric ? ]
Now we need a valve say under the edge of the intrument panel in each line.
The Mikuni pump line needs the valve before the pump so when we shut it off
no fuel gets to the pump to flood the engine in case of a ruptured diaphram.
I can't think of any reason to suggest if the valve on the other line should
be before or after the pump though except I like the idea of the electric
backup pump being close to the header tank for better suction that might be
needed in case of an air lock, although this should not be a problem with
our tanks and breather set up as described.
The lines out of each pump get paralled and fed into the carbs.
To simplify operation you can get electric solenoid valves to turn fuel on
and off so maybe you want to consider using one instead of a mechanical
valve in the electric backup pump line. This way when you throw the switch
turning the electric pump on you also power on this valve and have nothing
more to do except turn the Mikuni line valve off if it's a case of a ruptued
diaphram.
We have separate filters in each line so we simply use the other if we
have a blocked filter. I would suggest just running the gascolator on the
Mikuni line but if you wanted I guess you could go through the gascolator
after you paralled the lines before going into the carby's. However this
means dropping your fuel line after the paralelling point, which will be
high after the Mikuni pump, down to the gascolater and up again. As you
would normally only use the Mikuni line I would prefer to just use the
gascolater on this line.
Any comments are welcome. Please feel free to discuss it in the intertests
of evolving a safe system for all those that want to use it.
Thanks, Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 27
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" <jablackwell@ev1.net>
Has anyone tried the Prestone no mix coolant. The stuff I saw is orange in color
and is not mixed with water. would this be as good as the Evans coolant?
Jimmie
N855 Model IV Speedster
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
<< Don:
I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but for
sure it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric pump
will keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
Jose >>
I respectfully disagree. If you have a parallel pump hook up and the
diaphragm fails, the fuel will route itself back into the pulse pump (from the
output) and, work it's way back to the crankcase through the pulse line. You must
have some sort of check valve to prevent this back flow. A simple parallel
system won't prevent this back flow.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Company |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Howard Firm" <pianome2@mchsi.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Insurance Company
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Hey Howard,
>
> Do you think your Soob is too quiet to scare critters
> and flappers away?
>
> How's the testing coming? Got the oil blowby
> contained? Have you checked your carb temps in flight
> yet? I only did one check on mine so far and the carb
> temps are much lower with the side outlets open. I
> still need to confirm that one test though.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
Testing is going well...I have 9 hours....not great weather here lately...I
ended up adding a container to catch blowby oil....but very little has come
out since then...No carb temps test yet...I can maintain 3500 RPM with the
fuel pump turned off...It's nice to know that I can get that much
power....have you tested with the pump off?
Howard Firm
508 12th St. South
Virginia MN 55792
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 20:02:44 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener" <david_savener@msn.com>
In mounting the fuel pumps in parallel, it seems to me that one might need one
way valves to keep the fuel from flowing back through the non-operating pump and
back into the operating pump.
BTW, I need a backup pump because my 10 gallon fuel tank is in front of my instrument
panel and not in the wings. With this system, I have no header tank.
Dave S
----- Original Message -----
From: AlbertaIV@aol.com<mailto:AlbertaIV@aol.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com<mailto:AlbertaIV@aol.com>
In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com<mailto:jose_m_toro@yahoo.com> writes:
<< Don:
Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through
the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The
pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power),
pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out, the
back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs but
seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
memory...
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Re backup pump (Don and Rex) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
... the pump to flood the engine in case of a ruptured diaphram...
Don and Rex:
You certainly both have a point! I observed a Mikuni fuel pump failure before
installing the electric pump, but not after. I can tell that the parallel configuration
won't cause a new problem (as opposed to in-series), but can't say
that it will solve the problem of the engine sucking gasoline into the crankcase
through the pulse line. I never before thought about this side effect!!!
If you add the check valve suggested by Don to the pulse line of the mikuni pump,
and use the parallel configuration that Rex and I suggest, would not this
solve the problem? At least, I can guarantee that keeping the electric pump
working full time in a parallel configuration won't cause a side effect, and hopefully
will keep the fuel flow to the carburators in case that the mikuni pump
fails. The check valve would be the "missing link" that completes the installation.
Rex, I think that the double output at the header tank is not neccessary. The
split can be done after the filter that must be located after the gascolator,
before both pumps.
Don, what do you think?
Jose
Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw"
Guy's re this backup pump, I think a lot of good points are being made but
we need some system devised that answers all or most of the problems brought
up.
I have always understood that pumps in series add pressuires. Let's assume
each pump gives 3 lbs per square inch pressure. Now 3 lbs is fine on our
carbs in say a 582 but 6lbs will probably cause the needle and seat to leak
giving at the least a rich mixture. So first we need the pumps in parrallel
not series. It could be a case of outright flooding too.
Next we have the problem with a ruptured Diaphram in the Mikuni pump that
Don brought up. This will flood the motor due to sucking fuel into the
crankcase through the pulse line. Therefore we need to be able to both stop
that event if it happens and use our backup pump instead.
Re blocked filters. If we could bypass these when that happens it would
again save the day.
Right I think that's most of the troubles addressed. Sound too complicated
to solve all this in one go ? I don't think so ! Here's my idea but it's
open for discussion to evolve a good system.
If we have two wing tanks feeding into a header tank with a valve on each
line is a good idea. Our breather needs to go from the top of the header
tank to the top inside of a wing tank. We then take TWO lines rather than
one out of the bottom of the header tank and use a filter on each line.
One line goes to one pump and the other to the other pump. In the case of a
Rotax 2 stroke one pump is the Mikuni pulse pump and the other is the backup
pump.[ Facet electric ? ]
Now we need a valve say under the edge of the intrument panel in each line.
The Mikuni pump line needs the valve before the pump so when we shut it off
no fuel gets to the pump to flood the engine in case of a ruptured diaphram.
I can't think of any reason to suggest if the valve on the other line should
be before or after the pump though except I like the idea of the electric
backup pump being close to the header tank for better suction that might be
needed in case of an air lock, although this should not be a problem with
our tanks and breather set up as described.
The lines out of each pump get paralled and fed into the carbs.
To simplify operation you can get electric solenoid valves to turn fuel on
and off so maybe you want to consider using one instead of a mechanical
valve in the electric backup pump line. This way when you throw the switch
turning the electric pump on you also power on this valve and have nothing
more to do except turn the Mikuni line valve off if it's a case of a ruptued
diaphram.
We have separate filters in each line so we simply use the other if we
have a blocked filter. I would suggest just running the gascolator on the
Mikuni line but if you wanted I guess you could go through the gascolator
after you paralled the lines before going into the carby's. However this
means dropping your fuel line after the paralelling point, which will be
high after the Mikuni pump, down to the gascolater and up again. As you
would normally only use the Mikuni line I would prefer to just use the
gascolater on this line.
Any comments are welcome. Please feel free to discuss it in the intertests
of evolving a safe system for all those that want to use it.
Thanks, Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 ...(David) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
David:
It sounds like that the one way valve must be placed in the pulse line to avoid
the crankcase to get flooded through the pulse line if the diaphram fails in
the mikuni pump. Let wait for feedback from the listers...
Jose
David Savener <david_savener@msn.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Savener"
In mounting the fuel pumps in parallel, it seems to me that one might need one
way valves to keep the fuel from flowing back through the non-operating pump and
back into the operating pump.
BTW, I need a backup pump because my 10 gallon fuel tank is in front of my instrument
panel and not in the wings. With this system, I have no header tank.
Dave S
----- Original Message -----
From: AlbertaIV@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
<< Don:
Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through
the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The
pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power),
pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out, the
back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs but
seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
memory...
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Kurt:
The Faucet and Purolator pumps are the same. You certainly don't want to go as
complex (and heavy) as you described it could get.
What dou you think about the approach that I suggested in the e-mail to Don and
Rex?
Just learning...
Jose
kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
Jose,
I don't know about the Mikuni pump since both mine are
Facet. Those are suppose to bypass easily if failed,
but blockage is always a possible problem.
Peter G has a very nicely arranged parallel pump
system shown on his web site. I went series for
simplicity and to avoid the large number of fittings
and check valves in the parallel system. Thought I
might save 1/2 lb and a leak or two, but don't know.
The main series problem is pressure changes. I had
two 3 psi pumps, but neither pump could hold the
pressure at high power. One pump alone could drop to
1+ psi. I needed both on in flight for good egt's,
but then I could overpressure the carb at low power.
At least a single pump failure was not "critical".
To avoid blockage, a truely redundant system would
have to be parallel from the header tank to the carb
including 2 shutoffs in case one side leaks. 2 header
tank outlets, 2 shutoffs, 2 filters, 2 pumps, 2 check
valves, all dual lines, then gascolator (s), pressure
meter (s), fuel flow meter systems (s).... Otherwise
a leak or blockage can still hit a parallel system
where it is not redundant. When does it end? And the
weight.
I am still not happy with my system, but I will have
to wait until I see a better way for me. What works
best for one doesn't always work best for another.
Kurt S.
--- "Jose M. Toro" wrote:
> Kurt:
>
> There are two kinds of Puralotar fuel pumps. I use
> the one with less pressure (I guess it is 3 to 5
> pounds, not sure). With that one, you don't need a
> regulator.
>
> If you use the pumps in serie, can you guarantee
> that the electric pump wil be able to pull or push
> gas through the Mikuni pump if it gets obstructed?
>
> Jose
>
> kurt schrader wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
>
> Dave,
>
> I put a Spectre reguator in my fuel system, but
> never
> got to run the engine with it. While testing the
> fuel
> system with 1 or 2 pumps running, the regulator
> failed
> closed. When I disassembled it, I found that there
> was no way to fail-safe protect it. My failed
> regulator can and did shut off all fuel flow.
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil injected |
eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <aerowood@mcsi.net>
Hi Dave S,
My old 582ed IV-1200 also had the panel tank and a right wing tank. My
panel tank only held 9 gallons.
I ran 800+ hrs with only the Mikuni pump. Rebuilt the pump twice. Old
parts looked new each time.
bh
> In mounting the fuel pumps in parallel, it seems to me that one might need
> one way valves to keep the fuel from flowing back through the
> non-operating pump and back into the operating pump.
>
> BTW, I need a backup pump because my 10 gallon fuel tank is in front of my
> instrument panel and not in the wings. With this system, I have no header
> tank.
>
> Dave S
Message 35
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| Subject: | Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Do you run the 3 or 3A Ellison. I am pretty sure we both are turbo EA-81s.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel gravity flow
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
I wish I had fuel injection now.
It would be interesting to see what you come up with
if you do install an injection system. I don't know.
Is there one already available for the EA-81?
I anticipated a problem with the single electric pump
system NSI uses and added a backup during
construction. Sure enough, I found one such failure
in a KF crash when I checked the records while
building.
The problem happened when on takeoff and at 100%
throttle. In this case, the wire came off the pump
and the pilot got 100% air and 60% fuel. The engine
went "bang" (lean backfire?) and quit with no time to
troubleshoot and restart at a lower throttle setting
before it reached earth. Lost an airplane due to a
broken wire.
I also have a problem with my carb going lean, even at
full rich, when at certain throttle and rpm settings.
To stay at or below 1450 egt, I have to stay out of
this power range, which just happens to be upper
cruise power. Running 4-6 gph at 3300 rpm works well
though. Smooth and quiet. It gets progressively
leaner as rpm goes up.
If your spray bar drilling works, please let us know.
The problem must be common.
Kurt S.
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> Don, that is correct. The Ellison will provide
> adequate fuel at lower power
> setting but unless you have one of the really boys a
> 4 or 5 you need the
> extra pressure to provide more fuel at high power
> settings. In fact with my
> new engine I may be doing a delicate enlargement of
> the metering delivery
> tube hole to provide even a bit more. I am not sure
> but I guess I could do a
> pressure test to at what pressure the seat is
> bypassed. Could cause damage
> to the seat so I am not sure I want to do that.
> Ellison wont sell parts and
> require you send it to them. Don't like that much so
> may be going fuel
> injection on the next set of heads, off point but an
> issue for me. Good luck
> on you fuel system Torgeir.
>
> Rick
Message 36
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| Subject: | Spar Cleaner/Degreaser |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy" <fultz@trip.net>
O.K guys, I need your help.
I posted this inquiry on the AVID list and did not get any help. AVID sent
with my kit "W-9" Cleaner/Degreaser to be used to clean the spar to rib
joints before gluing. Who can tell me what the "Cleaner/Degreaser" is? Is
ACETONE acceptable? Seems that the stuff that was sent with the kit was
almost like an etching cleaner. Thanks
Andy
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Spar Cleaner/Degreaser |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" <jablackwell@ev1.net>
In Kitfox building you would use Poly Fiber 2210 Metsol. It is a good
degreaser.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy" <fultz@trip.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Spar Cleaner/Degreaser
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy" <fultz@trip.net>
>
> O.K guys, I need your help.
>
> I posted this inquiry on the AVID list and did not get any help. AVID
sent
> with my kit "W-9" Cleaner/Degreaser to be used to clean the spar to rib
> joints before gluing. Who can tell me what the "Cleaner/Degreaser" is?
Is
> ACETONE acceptable? Seems that the stuff that was sent with the kit was
> almost like an etching cleaner. Thanks
>
> Andy
>
>
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