Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: NSI EA-81 fuel injection (kurt schrader)
2. 12:25 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). (kurt schrader)
3. 12:30 AM - Re: Re backup pump (Don and Rex) (kurt schrader)
4. 12:48 AM - Re: Insurance Company (kurt schrader)
5. 02:28 AM - Re: Backup for Mikuni pump (BROSCHART)
6. 04:49 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (Clifford Begnaud)
7. 06:15 AM - EGT probe depth (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
8. 06:31 AM - Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). (Jose M. Toro)
9. 06:39 AM - Re: ruptured impulse line (Harris, Robert)
10. 06:53 AM - Re: ruptured impulse line (shortnaked)
11. 07:03 AM - Re: EGT probe depth (Rick)
12. 07:09 AM - Re: Insurance Company (Rick)
13. 07:13 AM - Re: NSI EA-81 fuel injection (Rick)
14. 07:43 AM - Re: EGT probe depth (Bob Robertson)
15. 08:39 AM - Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop (Lyle Persels)
16. 08:45 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (Randy Daughenbaugh)
17. 08:45 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (Randy Daughenbaugh)
18. 08:50 AM - Re: Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
19. 09:00 AM - Re: EGT probe depth (skyflyte@comcast.net)
20. 09:24 AM - Re: NSI EA-81 fuel injection (kurt schrader)
21. 09:32 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (customtrans@qwest.net)
22. 09:42 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
23. 09:48 AM - Re: Oil level (kurt schrader)
24. 10:01 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
25. 10:22 AM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (customtrans@qwest.net)
26. 02:37 PM - Re: Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop (Lyle Persels)
27. 02:50 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (Clem Nichols)
28. 03:14 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (shortnaked)
29. 03:15 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
30. 03:19 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (Ron)
31. 03:26 PM - Re: EGT probe depth (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
32. 03:56 PM - Pulse line (Rex & Jan Shaw)
33. 04:10 PM - Ruptured diaphram (Rex & Jan Shaw)
34. 04:18 PM - Re: NSI EA-81 fuel injection (Rick)
35. 04:24 PM - Check valve (Rex & Jan Shaw)
36. 04:49 PM - Re: Ruptured diaphram (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
37. 05:35 PM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (Randy Daughenbaugh)
38. 05:49 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (shortnaked)
39. 05:59 PM - Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! (jdmcbean)
40. 06:13 PM - Re: Ruptured diaphram (Jim Corner)
41. 06:54 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil (Jerry Liles)
42. 07:02 PM - Re: Pulse line (Jose M. Toro)
43. 07:17 PM - Re: ruptured impulse line (Jose M. Toro)
44. 07:19 PM - Re: Fuel gravity flow (Jerry Liles)
45. 07:29 PM - Re: Pulse line (Jerry Liles)
46. 08:24 PM - Re: Check valve (kurt schrader)
47. 08:37 PM - Re: NSI EA-81 fuel injection (kurt schrader)
48. 08:44 PM - Re: EGT probe depth (kurt schrader)
49. 09:52 PM - Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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| Subject: | NSI EA-81 fuel injection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I have the 3A and small turbo. I remember reading
something in the book about the performance possibly
being better at a little less than full throttle.
Maybe runs a little richer?
But that doesn't seem to be my problem. It is in the
high mid range that it goes lean on me. At full.
throttle and full rich I am gettng well under 1400
egt. But at other settings I can barely maintain 1450
or a bit higher full rich. Until I get a better
handle on it, I just stay out of that range. It does
go richer at higher altitudes. When I finally do a
cross country in it, I'll see about high altitude
leaning, range figures, true cruise speeds and Mach
numbers... :-)
I would like injection for more balanced power and
most of all, no carb icing problems.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> Do you run the 3 or 3A Ellison. I am pretty sure we
> both are turbo EA-81s.
>
> Rick
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Jose,
You put a lot of thought into your approach. We are
each trying to come up with a way of controlling the
risks.
Problem is that we don't all have the same engines or
fuel tanks and carbs. One solution doesn't fit all,
so we experiment. And it can get too complex. By now
you all have eased back to a simpler solution of
routine maintenance instead of redundancy, which
doesn't add weight or other risks.
For me, I am looking for a good fuel pressure switch
to turn on the second pump automatically in series if
the first should fall low on pressure. That keeps the
system simple, yet gives the backup pump. It is
simply the one pump system, but with a second pump
that comes on only when needed. I don't ahve the
failed diaphram problem.
BTW, the Facet pump internal check valves can be the
cause of failure. For that reason a second check
valve like Peter G uses in his parallel system is
necessary. I think his parallel system and my series
system are about a toss-up in +/- benefits/risks. It
comes down to preferences after that. But his looks
prettier... :-) Not bad for 100 days work!
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kurt:
>
> The Faucet and Purolator pumps are the same. You
> certainly don't want to go as complex (and heavy) as
> you described it could get.
>
> What dou you think about the approach that I
> suggested in the e-mail to Don and Rex?
>
> Just learning...
>
> Jose
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
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| Subject: | Re: Re backup pump (Don and Rex) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Now if we had a strong enough header tank and shut off
the vent after the air was out, we could put pumps,
filters and check valves at the wing tanks and leave
it at that. Pressurize the whole system and skip the
pulse pump.
Just another dream...
Kurt S.
--- "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ... the pump to flood the engine in case of a
> ruptured diaphram...
>
> Don and Rex:
>
> You certainly both have a point! I observed a
> Mikuni fuel pump failure before installing the
> electric pump, but not after. I can tell that the
> parallel configuration won't cause a new problem (as
> opposed to in-series), but can't say that it will
> solve the problem of the engine sucking gasoline
> into the crankcase through the pulse line. I never
> before thought about this side effect!!! .....
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Insurance Company |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Howard,
I've only tested it on the ground with the pump off.
In fact, I routinely shut it off while taxiing in
after landing. But in flight mine would probably go
too lean for me to run it that way. Still trying to
keep the egt's low.
I can still get a cup of oil in my container after a
flight. The plane stays clean, but I go thru more oil
than I would like yet. That being said, I am running
5.25 qts. Maybe my origional dipstick is measured
wrong? With the pan off, I can see that it measures
full at a little above the top of the pan with the
plane leveled. That may give me the greater blowby.
My stick is so short that I made another stick up to
know when I only have 4.25 qts, which is probably
enough, but below the origional stick. It was bad to
have 4.25 qts and not know if I had any left at all
... :-(
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Howard Firm <pianome2@mchsi.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Insurance Company
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hey Howard,
> >
> > Do you think your Soob is too quiet to scare
> critters and flappers away?
> >
> > How's the testing coming? Got the oil blowby
> > contained? Have you checked your carb temps in
> flight yet? I only did one check on mine so far and
> the carb temps are much lower with the side outlets
> open. I still need to confirm that one test though.
> >
> > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
> >
>
> Testing is going well...I have 9 hours....not great
> weather here lately...I
> ended up adding a container to catch blowby
> oil....but very little has come
> out since then...No carb temps test yet...I can
> maintain 3500 RPM with the
> fuel pump turned off...It's nice to know that I can
> get that much
> power....have you tested with the pump off?
>
> Howard Firm
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Backup for Mikuni pump |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: BROSCHART <cfbflyer@localnet.com>
some times new parts are defective so a tried and proven assembly will
be the best choice
Have a good day - Charlie
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> << Listers:
>
> It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand new one
> solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace the pulse
> line.
>
> To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail during its
> first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
>
> You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to this
> list...
>
> Jose
> >>
>
> Jose,
> It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself. You
> don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others that would
> rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's kept
> nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
> BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was caused by a
> ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been changed in a
> long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
>
> A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> flight. IT FLYS!
>
> But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> that
> the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
>
> I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
> 8" from the head.
>
> I would appreciate any comments and help.
>
> Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
>
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
I was looking at an engine the other day that is running around 1100+
degrees EGT's. However the plugs are way too much on the white side. I pulled
one of the EGT probes and found that it was installed all the way through the
exhaust manifold. The probe was actually jammed against the opposite wall.
I'm under the impression that EGT probe tips should be installed near the
center of the exhaust pipe/manifold. Does anyone have any idea what the
actual temp difference would be if measured at the center versus the opposite wall
of an exhaust pipe/manifold.
For this question, I'm only interested in depth of the probe not distance
from the piston.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Kurt:
I'm done with the backup pump issue for Mikuni pumps and 582s...it won't solve
the pulse line issue. However, I will be shortly switching to a Jabiru engine,
and most likely will use a backup pump in that implementation.
Your Subaru engine installation is closer to the Jabiru installion than the 582
installation I currently have.
I would like to learn a little bit more about your dual pump approach. What kind
of fuel pump is the main in your installation. Are your electric pumps, after
the header tank, under the seat like Peter G's?
Jose
This is all about continuous learning...
kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
Jose,
You put a lot of thought into your approach. We are
each trying to come up with a way of controlling the
risks.
Problem is that we don't all have the same engines or
fuel tanks and carbs. One solution doesn't fit all,
so we experiment. And it can get too complex. By now
you all have eased back to a simpler solution of
routine maintenance instead of redundancy, which
doesn't add weight or other risks.
For me, I am looking for a good fuel pressure switch
to turn on the second pump automatically in series if
the first should fall low on pressure. That keeps the
system simple, yet gives the backup pump. It is
simply the one pump system, but with a second pump
that comes on only when needed. I don't ahve the
failed diaphram problem.
BTW, the Facet pump internal check valves can be the
cause of failure. For that reason a second check
valve like Peter G uses in his parallel system is
necessary. I think his parallel system and my series
system are about a toss-up in +/- benefits/risks. It
comes down to preferences after that. But his looks
prettier... :-) Not bad for 100 days work!
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- "Jose M. Toro" wrote:
> Kurt:
>
> The Faucet and Purolator pumps are the same. You
> certainly don't want to go as complex (and heavy) as
> you described it could get.
>
> What dou you think about the approach that I
> suggested in the e-mail to Don and Rex?
>
> Just learning...
>
> Jose
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Thanks for the pics Shorty
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shortnaked
Subject: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Here you go guys a failure of an impulse line i changed the other day.
posted on this lazair.com site as it the only way i know how to post a pic
and share it.
http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=268
Plus if you like LAzair ultralights it full of info adn some MOVIES up to
200 mgs
http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showforum=12
all free too
gotta like that lol
maybe i should start a kitfox thread there for you guys LOL ( i been
sneaking some stuff in already adn no complaints)
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Backup for Mikuni pump
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> << Listers:
>
> It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand new
one
> solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace the
pulse
> line.
>
> To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail during
its
> first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
>
> You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to this
> list...
>
> Jose
> >>
>
> Jose,
> It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself. You
> don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others that
would
> rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's kept
> nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
> BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was caused by
a
> ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been changed in
a
> long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
anytime
see i live in a real world and like to try to help out others with facts
pictures prove it
:)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>
> Thanks for the pics Shorty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shortnaked
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>
> Here you go guys a failure of an impulse line i changed the other day.
>
> posted on this lazair.com site as it the only way i know how to post a
pic
> and share it.
> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=268
> Plus if you like LAzair ultralights it full of info adn some MOVIES up to
> 200 mgs
> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showforum=12
>
> all free too
>
> gotta like that lol
>
> maybe i should start a kitfox thread there for you guys LOL ( i been
> sneaking some stuff in already adn no complaints)
>
> Shorty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Backup for Mikuni pump
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >
> > << Listers:
> >
> > It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand new
> one
> > solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace the
> pulse
> > line.
> >
> > To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail during
> its
> > first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
> >
> > You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to this
> > list...
> >
> > Jose
> > >>
> >
> > Jose,
> > It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself.
You
> > don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others
that
> would
> > rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's
kept
> > nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
> > BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was caused
by
> a
> > ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been changed
in
> a
> > long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
> >
> > Don Smythe
> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Don,
I could check on the instruction that came with my EGT instruments, but I am
certain that against the header is not good. Something tells having the tip
centered in the pipe is right. I think that is somewhat determined by the
length of the probe if I am not mistaken. Someone may have supplied the
wrong length for your application.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
AlbertaIV@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT probe depth
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
I was looking at an engine the other day that is running around 1100+
degrees EGT's. However the plugs are way too much on the white side. I
pulled
one of the EGT probes and found that it was installed all the way through
the
exhaust manifold. The probe was actually jammed against the opposite wall.
I'm under the impression that EGT probe tips should be installed near
the
center of the exhaust pipe/manifold. Does anyone have any idea what the
actual temp difference would be if measured at the center versus the
opposite wall
of an exhaust pipe/manifold.
For this question, I'm only interested in depth of the probe not
distance
from the piston.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 12
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| Subject: | Insurance Company |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Kurt,
If the oil was to the top of the pan , then your cam gear would be churning
the heck out of your oil. Also you are covering the vent drain to the rear
of the pan and most likely puking the oil out. The lower level would be
better. You can take of the vent fitting and fill until it just stars to
come out, go slow, and the back off a half or so. Having done that then take
a look at the modified vent Tom A. came up with. Good luck.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Insurance Company
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Howard,
I've only tested it on the ground with the pump off.
In fact, I routinely shut it off while taxiing in
after landing. But in flight mine would probably go
too lean for me to run it that way. Still trying to
keep the egt's low.
I can still get a cup of oil in my container after a
flight. The plane stays clean, but I go thru more oil
than I would like yet. That being said, I am running
5.25 qts. Maybe my origional dipstick is measured
wrong? With the pan off, I can see that it measures
full at a little above the top of the pan with the
plane leveled. That may give me the greater blowby.
My stick is so short that I made another stick up to
know when I only have 4.25 qts, which is probably
enough, but below the origional stick. It was bad to
have 4.25 qts and not know if I had any left at all
... :-(
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Howard Firm <pianome2@mchsi.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Insurance Company
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Hey Howard,
> >
> > Do you think your Soob is too quiet to scare
> critters and flappers away?
> >
> > How's the testing coming? Got the oil blowby
> > contained? Have you checked your carb temps in
> flight yet? I only did one check on mine so far and
> the carb temps are much lower with the side outlets
> open. I still need to confirm that one test though.
> >
> > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
> >
>
> Testing is going well...I have 9 hours....not great
> weather here lately...I
> ended up adding a container to catch blowby
> oil....but very little has come
> out since then...No carb temps test yet...I can
> maintain 3500 RPM with the
> fuel pump turned off...It's nice to know that I can
> get that much
> power....have you tested with the pump off?
>
> Howard Firm
Message 13
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| Subject: | NSI EA-81 fuel injection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
That sounds right. BTW at 17,900 MSL I had no high EGT problems even at full
power and an a GPS GS of about 170. Only did that once. :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI EA-81 fuel injection
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I have the 3A and small turbo. I remember reading
something in the book about the performance possibly
being better at a little less than full throttle.
Maybe runs a little richer?
But that doesn't seem to be my problem. It is in the
high mid range that it goes lean on me. At full.
throttle and full rich I am gettng well under 1400
egt. But at other settings I can barely maintain 1450
or a bit higher full rich. Until I get a better
handle on it, I just stay out of that range. It does
go richer at higher altitudes. When I finally do a
cross country in it, I'll see about high altitude
leaning, range figures, true cruise speeds and Mach
numbers... :-)
I would like injection for more balanced power and
most of all, no carb icing problems.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> Do you run the 3 or 3A Ellison. I am pretty sure we
> both are turbo EA-81s.
>
> Rick
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EGT probe depth |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" <aerocontrols@clearwave.ca>
Hi Don,
I just went out to the shop and looked at a "clamp-on type" EGT probe
installed into a 582 manifold. The tip of the probe is about 1/8" away from
the opposite wall of the manifold (i.e. almost all the way across). Seeing
as this type of EGT probe was the norm, up till rotax started putting
weld-on bosses to mount the EGTs, I would take this as correct.
Always trust the plugs rather than the gauge unless, o course, you are
installnig real expensive EGT gauses (Alcor etc). Did this airplane run on
any Av-gas cause that can cause a lighter color than mo-gas.
You might want to try new probes or a new gauge itself. These Westburg and
import gauges are notorious for being inaccurate.
They do give us a chance to see day to day changes in our exhaust gas temps,
which is what we want anyway.
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: EGT probe depth
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> I was looking at an engine the other day that is running around 1100+
> degrees EGT's. However the plugs are way too much on the white side. I
pulled
> one of the EGT probes and found that it was installed all the way through
the
> exhaust manifold. The probe was actually jammed against the opposite
wall.
> I'm under the impression that EGT probe tips should be installed near
the
> center of the exhaust pipe/manifold. Does anyone have any idea what the
> actual temp difference would be if measured at the center versus the
opposite wall
> of an exhaust pipe/manifold.
> For this question, I'm only interested in depth of the probe not
distance
> from the piston.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers@mchsi.com>
After 400 hours on my Model IV, I remain pleased with the 912UL's
smoothness, economy and power when operating at cruise rpm. However,
from the beginning I've struggled with roughness-often extreme- below,
say, 2500 rpm. I have all the manuals, have balanced (both mechanical
and with vacuum guage) and tinkered and adjusted linkages with extreme
care, have cleaned carbs carefully, replaced many carb parts (flanges,
diaphragms, jets, needles, o-rings), and looked for possible intake leaks.
In addition to roughness, I've always had a drop on the individual
ignition circuit checks of slightly greater than 300 rpm on each
circuit. Replacing the plugs helps a little for a short time. I've done
this much too frequently, at 20-25 hour intervals. I've replaced a
faulty coil and ignition module (now $782) but I doubt that these
related to the mag drop problems.
I've followed the list on these topics for years, so I know my
experiences aren't unique. Yet I can't believe most 912 operators
experience these problems with the severity and frequency that have
plagued my love-hate relationship with the engine. I just can't believe
these conditions "have to be."
Can anyone offer suggestions, information, or even condolences?
Lyle Persels
>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Kurt,
The answer is, "Not soon enough!"
I didn't fly at all while I was building and for a couple of years before
that. I found that my feet had forgotten what they were for. I have been
flying with my friend in his Fox and am pretty close now to getting turned
loose.
While I am anxious to fly, I don't want to bend my plane.
I would advise people who are building to do some flying while building. It
is frustrating to have a pretty plane just sitting there while you are
trying to get the pilot back into flying shape.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Congrats Randy!
When are you going to take the stick yourself and get
some flight time?
Kurt S.
--- Randy Daughenbaugh <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> wrote:
> A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my
> plane for its first flight. IT FLYS!
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
>
> A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> flight. IT FLYS!
>
> But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> that
> the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
>
> I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
> 8" from the head.
>
> I would appreciate any comments and help.
>
> Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
what color are the plugs when you change them?
is the mag drop the same for both sides?
what settings on the circlip on the needle?
what main jets are you running?
does this happen year round or at season change?
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels
>
> After 400 hours on my Model IV, I remain pleased with the 912UL's
> smoothness, economy and power when operating at cruise rpm. However,
> from the beginning I've struggled with roughness-often extreme- below,
> say, 2500 rpm. I have all the manuals, have balanced (both mechanical
> and with vacuum guage) and tinkered and adjusted linkages with extreme
> care, have cleaned carbs carefully, replaced many carb parts (flanges,
> diaphragms, jets, needles, o-rings), and looked for possible intake leaks.
>
> In addition to roughness, I've always had a drop on the individual
> ignition circuit checks of slightly greater than 300 rpm on each
> circuit. Replacing the plugs helps a little for a short time. I've done
> this much too frequently, at 20-25 hour intervals. I've replaced a
> faulty coil and ignition module (now $782) but I doubt that these
> related to the mag drop problems.
>
> I've followed the list on these topics for years, so I know my
> experiences aren't unique. Yet I can't believe most 912 operators
> experience these problems with the severity and frequency that have
> plagued my love-hate relationship with the engine. I just can't believe
> these conditions "have to be."
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions, information, or even condolences?
>
> Lyle Persels
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
what color are the plugs when you change them?
is the mag drop the same for both sides?
what settings on the circlip on the needle?
what main jets are you running?
does this happen year round or at season change?
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <LPERS@MCHSI.COM>
After 400 hours on my Model IV, I remain pleased with the 912UL's
smoothness, economy and power when operating at cruise rpm. However,
from the beginning I've struggled with roughness-often extreme- below,
say, 2500 rpm. I have all the manuals, have balanced (both mechanical
and with vacuum guage) and tinkered and adjusted linkages with extreme
care, have cleaned carbs carefully, replaced many carb parts (flanges,
diaphragms, jets, needles, o-rings), and looked for possible intake leaks.
In addition to roughness, I've always had a drop on the individual
ignition circuit checks of slightly greater than 300 rpm on each
circuit. Replacing the plugs helps a litt
le for a short time. I've done
this much too frequently, at 20-25 hour intervals. I've replaced a
faulty coil and ignition module (now $782) but I doubt that these
related to the mag drop problems.
I've followed the list on these topics for years, so I know my
experiences aren't unique. Yet I can't believe most 912 operators
experience these problems with the severity and frequency that have
plagued my love-hate relationship with the engine. I just can't believe
these conditions "have to be."
Can anyone offer suggestions, information, or even condolences?
Lyle Persels
is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: EGT probe depth |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: skyflyte@comcast.net
I used to manufacture EGT gauges and always recommended that the probe be placed
in the middle of the exhaust flow. You can raise the probe tip by placing 3/16"
ID washers over the probe before inseting it in the manifold. And I also
agree that the color of your plugs is the best indicator of a correct or incorrect
mixture. When the mixture is correct then the EGT gauge is used to detect
changes for what is normal. Some EGT gauges don't even have a temperature
scale, the readings are always relative!
Mike Cannon
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
>
> Hi Don,
> I just went out to the shop and looked at a "clamp-on type" EGT probe
> installed into a 582 manifold. The tip of the probe is about 1/8" away from
> the opposite wall of the manifold (i.e. almost all the way across). Seeing
> as this type of EGT probe was the norm, up till rotax started putting
> weld-on bosses to mount the EGTs,
I used to manufacture EGT gauges and always recommended that the probe be placed
in the middle of the exhaust flow. You can raise the probe tip by placing 3/16"
ID washers over the probe before inseting it in the manifold. And I also agree
that the color of your plugs is the best indicator of a correct or incorrect
mixture. When the mixture is correct then the EGT gauge is used to detect
changes for what is normal. Some EGT gauges don't even have a temperature scale,
the readings are always relative!
Mike Cannon
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" <AEROCONTROLS@CLEARWAVE.CA>
Hi Don,
I just went out to the shop and looked at a "clamp-on type" EGT probe
installed into a 582 manifold. The tip of the probe is about 1/8" away from
the opposite wall of the manifold (i.e. almost all the way across). Seeing
as this type of EGT probe was the norm, up till rotax started putting
weld-on bosses to mount the EGTs,
Message 20
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|
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=Terjg+h1htFAhriY4G7O8klyOemFeZRfIL6SoZteP9phSN7yDnbsSPSbougHPpLuvjWWVhWEOrkFW7z5wtPGiS0bzEC4Td5rljTyBBZgMIFsx3+ohJK4uDhgh6KbhKpQ3aKlFvDTmEmmMtCc6NTqYT4biYNJx6bUnzV4PLhGD8c=
;
| Subject: | NSI EA-81 fuel injection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I haven't found an oxygen source for under $400 yet,
so I haven't been near that high.
Did you see at what altitude the power started to drop
off? If I remember, Lance said the turbo was good for
100% to 12-14,000 feet.
What was your fuel flow at 170,900 and 170? Not that
I would do that regularily either. But from the FF
you can guess pretty closely on the hp you were able
to use up there.
Well, I have the small turbo, so results will vary.
Kurt S.
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> That sounds right. BTW at 17,900 MSL I had no high
> EGT problems even at full power and an a GPS GS of
> about 170. Only did that once. :)
>
> Rick
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
One problem with checking the spark plugs is to do it at high rpm and then
shut down then check plugs. Don't idle back down then shut down, will make
false reading because the idle circuits on the rotax are usually richer.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
>
> A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> flight. IT FLYS!
>
> But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> that
> the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
>
> I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
> 8" from the head.
>
> I would appreciate any comments and help.
>
> Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
aah, but the idle period is when he is having the problem. It seems that if the
idle mixture setting and/or the needle setting is/are too rich then the described
symptoms could be exhibited. At the rpm where we usually check for mag drop
the engine is running on a blend of both needle and idle mixtures.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> One problem with checking the spark plugs is to do it at high rpm and then
> shut down then check plugs. Don't idle back down then shut down, will make
> false reading because the idle circuits on the rotax are usually richer.
> steve a
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
> Daughenbaugh
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
>
>
> Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
> I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
> info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
> to change the setting in the EIS. !!
>
> And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
> be OK.
>
> I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
> an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
> for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
> steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
> Begnaud
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
>
> Randy,
> Congrats on the first flight!
> What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
> than 8".
> Cliff
> Erie, co
>
> >
> > A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> > flight. IT FLYS!
> >
> > But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> > that
> > the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> > The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
> >
> > I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
> > 8" from the head.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments and help.
> >
> > Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
aah, but the idle period is when he is having the problem. It seems that if the
idle mixture setting and/or the needle setting is/are too rich then the described
symptoms could be exhibited. At the rpm where we usually check for mag drop
the engine is running on a blend of both needle and idle mixtures.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
One problem with checking the spark plugs is to do it at high rpm and then
shut down then check plugs. Don't idle back down then shut down, will make
false reading because the idle circuits on the rotax are usually richer.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<RJDAUGH@RAPIDNET.COM>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate m
yself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! <
BR>
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<SHOELESS@BAREFOOTPILOT.COM>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
flight. IT FLYS!
But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
that
the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
8" from the head.
I would appreciate any comments and help.
Randy - Did I mention it fly
s!?
ads or any other
s: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 23
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|
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=RNbhBLsf/PzvE2KQwmjJbjWIGGPz7zVFgwL/gl2BbH/XrgtGgbw/uyXxqBfU+XxrI+XJDVlSpLg3iznE0/dDw9b2O8Pyks+G6+0tZW535RUsL79EQM2Njv0yDO3YuUOVzM9TGF8CIWREI6/KdBtFWvddMiuspLxdPQmRcVK/FCY=
;
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
That's the kind of problems I was worried about with
it that full. Until I pulled the pan off, I didn't
know where the dip stick level was. If you get the
chance, please measure your dip stick length to the
full mark. I'd like to compare it to mine.
Many problems can come from simply having the wrong
dip stick provided. Maybe I do
With the oil below the rear pan/seperator drain, the
level would be far below the tip of my dipstick in the
3 point position, or even leveled. Maybe an inch
short when leveled. No way to preflight it without my
new dipstick. Unfortunately the new one doesn't seal
in the engine, so I carry it seperately.
I have been running at about the tip of the old
dipstick where the level just barely shows on
preflight. That is still above the rear fitting in 3
point, even though it is maybe 1.5 qts below the full
mark with the plane leveled. I worry about my oil
temp going higher with less oil for cooling.
Are Tom's modified vent pics on SportFlight?
The people in Africa that bought 10 NSI engines moved
the return line to the front side of the pan to raise
the return above the oil in 3 point position. Even
this would not work with my dipstick level.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> Kurt,
> If the oil was to the top of the pan , then your cam
> gear would be churning
> the heck out of your oil. Also you are covering the
> vent drain to the rear
> of the pan and most likely puking the oil out. The
> lower level would be
> better. You can take of the vent fitting and fill
> until it just stars to
> come out, go slow, and the back off a half or so.
> Having done that then take
> a look at the modified vent Tom A. came up with.
> Good luck.
>
> Rick
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges with
the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main jet(full
throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit challenging. When
I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude, etc there is little
variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to an economy cruise.
Most times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or fall slightly as the
throttle is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes are at the same time sensitive
and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I remember
correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about 2 1/2
turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting ended up
in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is 4450' and idle
(nor main jet) is not affected by the "compression compensation" built into
the carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
>
> Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
> I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
> info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
> to change the setting in the EIS. !!
>
> And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
> be OK.
>
> I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
> an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
> for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
> steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
> Begnaud
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
>
> Randy,
> Congrats on the first flight!
> What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
> than 8".
> Cliff
> Erie, co
>
> >
> > A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> > flight. IT FLYS!
> >
> > But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> > that
> > the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> > The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
> >
> > I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
> > 8" from the head.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments and help.
> >
> > Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges with
the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main jet(full
throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit challenging. When
I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude, etc there is little
variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to an economy cruise. Most
times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or fall slightly as the throttle
is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes are at the same time sensitive
and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I remember
correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about 2 1/2
turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting ended up
in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is 4450' and idle
(nor main jet) isnot affected by the "compression compensation" built into the
carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <RJDAUGH@RAPIDNET.COM>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
&
gt;
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<SHOELESS@BAREFOOTPILOT.COM>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
flight. IT FLYS!
But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
that
the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
The 1500 is what
I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
8" from the head.
I would appreciate any comments and help.
Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
!
.matronics.com/archives
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
My thoughts were to set idle for mag check and then shut down and check
spark plugs.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
aah, but the idle period is when he is having the problem. It seems that if
the idle mixture setting and/or the needle setting is/are too rich then the
described symptoms could be exhibited. At the rpm where we usually check for
mag drop the engine is running on a blend of both needle and idle mixtures.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> One problem with checking the spark plugs is to do it at high rpm and then
> shut down then check plugs. Don't idle back down then shut down, will make
> false reading because the idle circuits on the rotax are usually richer.
> steve a
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
> Daughenbaugh
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
>
>
> Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
> I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
> info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
> to change the setting in the EIS. !!
>
> And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
> be OK.
>
> I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out
at
> an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
> for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
> steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
> Begnaud
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
>
> Randy,
> Congrats on the first flight!
> What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
> than 8".
> Cliff
> Erie, co
>
> >
> > A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> > flight. IT FLYS!
> >
> > But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> > that
> > the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> > The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
> >
> > I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it
is
> > 8" from the head.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments and help.
> >
> > Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
> >
>
>
aah, but the idle period is when he is having the problem. It seems that if
the idle mixture setting and/or the needle setting is/are too rich then the
described symptoms could be exhibited. At the rpm where we usually check for
mag drop the engine is running on a blend of both needle and idle mixtures.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
One problem with checking the spark plugs is to do it at high rpm and then
shut down then check plugs. Don't idle back down then shut down, will make
false reading because the idle circuits on the rotax are usually richer.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<RJDAUGH@RAPIDNET.COM>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate m
yself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! <
BR>
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<SHOELESS@BAREFOOTPILOT.COM>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
flight. IT FLYS!
But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
that
the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
8" from the head.
I would appreciate any comments and help.
Randy - Did I mention it fly
s!?
ads or any other
s: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Roughness and mag drop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers@mchsi.com>
Plug color: ceramic varies from mid brown toward black, but not heavily
sooted.
Mag drop same for both sides: Yes
Circlip settings. Position #2 per manual.
Main jets: 158 per manual
Seasonal? No, year round, but some seasonal variation. My record keeping
hasn't been so meticulous as to relate variations to temperature/humidity.
I appreciate your interest.
Lyle Persels
kerrjohna@comcast.net wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>
>what color are the plugs when you change them?
>
>is the mag drop the same for both sides?
>
>what settings on the circlip on the needle?
>
>what main jets are you running?
>
>does this happen year round or at season change?
>
>John Kerr
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels
>>
>>After 400 hours on my Model IV, I remain pleased with the 912UL's
>>smoothness, economy and power when operating at cruise rpm. However,
>>from the beginning I've struggled with roughness-often extreme- below,
>>say, 2500 rpm. I have all the manuals, have balanced (both mechanical
>>and with vacuum guage) and tinkered and adjusted linkages with extreme
>>care, have cleaned carbs carefully, replaced many carb parts (flanges,
>>diaphragms, jets, needles, o-rings), and looked for possible intake leaks.
>>
>>In addition to roughness, I've always had a drop on the individual
>>ignition circuit checks of slightly greater than 300 rpm on each
>>circuit. Replacing the plugs helps a little for a short time. I've done
>>this much too frequently, at 20-25 hour intervals. I've replaced a
>>faulty coil and ignition module (now $782) but I doubt that these
>>related to the mag drop problems.
>>
>>I've followed the list on these topics for years, so I know my
>>experiences aren't unique. Yet I can't believe most 912 operators
>>experience these problems with the severity and frequency that have
>>plagued my love-hate relationship with the engine. I just can't believe
>>these conditions "have to be."
>>
>>Can anyone offer suggestions, information, or even condolences?
>>
>>Lyle Persels
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>what color are the plugs when you change them?
>
>is the mag drop the same for both sides?
>
>what settings on the circlip on the needle?
>
>what main jets are you running?
>
>does this happen year round or at season change?
>
>John Kerr
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <LPERS@MCHSI.COM>
>
> After 400 hours on my Model IV, I remain pleased with the 912UL's
> smoothness, economy and power when operating at cruise rpm. However,
> from the beginning I've struggled with roughness-often extreme- below,
> say, 2500 rpm. I have all the manuals, have balanced (both mechanical
> and with vacuum guage) and tinkered and adjusted linkages with extreme
> care, have cleaned carbs carefully, replaced many carb parts (flanges,
> diaphragms, jets, needles, o-rings), and looked for possible intake leaks.
>
> In addition to roughness, I've always had a drop on the individual
> ignition circuit checks of slightly greater than 300 rpm on each
> circuit. Replacing the plugs helps a litt
> le for a short time. I've done
> this much too frequently, at 20-25 hour intervals. I've replaced a
> faulty coil and ignition module (now $782) but I doubt that these
> related to the mag drop problems.
>
> I've followed the list on these topics for years, so I know my
> experiences aren't unique. Yet I can't believe most 912 operators
> experience these problems with the severity and frequency that have
> plagued my love-hate relationship with the engine. I just can't believe
> these conditions "have to be."
>
> Can anyone offer suggestions, information, or even condolences?
>
> Lyle Persels
>
>
> is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
> /SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Am I mistaken, or is it OK to use regular automotive fuel line as an impulse
line?
Clem Nichols
----- Original Message -----
From: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>
> anytime
>
> see i live in a real world and like to try to help out others with facts
>
> pictures prove it
>
> :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
> <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
>>
>> Thanks for the pics Shorty
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shortnaked
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>>
>> Here you go guys a failure of an impulse line i changed the other day.
>>
>> posted on this lazair.com site as it the only way i know how to post a
> pic
>> and share it.
>> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=268
>> Plus if you like LAzair ultralights it full of info adn some MOVIES up
>> to
>> 200 mgs
>> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showforum=12
>>
>> all free too
>>
>> gotta like that lol
>>
>> maybe i should start a kitfox thread there for you guys LOL ( i been
>> sneaking some stuff in already adn no complaints)
>>
>> Shorty
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Backup for Mikuni pump
>>
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>> >
>> > << Listers:
>> >
>> > It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand new
>> one
>> > solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace the
>> pulse
>> > line.
>> >
>> > To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail during
>> its
>> > first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
>> >
>> > You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to
>> > this
>> > list...
>> >
>> > Jose
>> > >>
>> >
>> > Jose,
>> > It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself.
> You
>> > don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others
> that
>> would
>> > rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's
> kept
>> > nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
>> > BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was caused
> by
>> a
>> > ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been changed
> in
>> a
>> > long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
>> >
>> > Don Smythe
>> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
someone had it on this plane with a 582
this is what happened.
fuel line should not be automotive either
use urethane NOT TYGON
TYGON will harden ina a year
hope this helps you
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
>
> Am I mistaken, or is it OK to use regular automotive fuel line as an
impulse
> line?
>
> Clem Nichols
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
> >
> > anytime
> >
> > see i live in a real world and like to try to help out others with
facts
> >
> > pictures prove it
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> >
> >
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
> > <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
> >>
> >> Thanks for the pics Shorty
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shortnaked
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> >>
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
> >>
> >> Here you go guys a failure of an impulse line i changed the other day.
> >>
> >> posted on this lazair.com site as it the only way i know how to post a
> > pic
> >> and share it.
> >> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=268
> >> Plus if you like LAzair ultralights it full of info adn some MOVIES up
> >> to
> >> 200 mgs
> >> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showforum=12
> >>
> >> all free too
> >>
> >> gotta like that lol
> >>
> >> maybe i should start a kitfox thread there for you guys LOL ( i been
> >> sneaking some stuff in already adn no complaints)
> >>
> >> Shorty
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
> >> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Backup for Mikuni pump
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >> >
> >> > << Listers:
> >> >
> >> > It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand
new
> >> one
> >> > solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace
the
> >> pulse
> >> > line.
> >> >
> >> > To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail
during
> >> its
> >> > first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
> >> >
> >> > You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to
> >> > this
> >> > list...
> >> >
> >> > Jose
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > Jose,
> >> > It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself.
> > You
> >> > don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others
> > that
> >> would
> >> > rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's
> > kept
> >> > nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
> >> > BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was
caused
> > by
> >> a
> >> > ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been
changed
> > in
> >> a
> >> > long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
> >> >
> >> > Don Smythe
> >> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
<<
Am I mistaken, or is it OK to use regular automotive fuel line as an impulse
line?
Clem Nichols >>
Clem,
That is a good question. CPS and Spruce sells clear Poly line that is
specifically for the pulse line. The last order I received, it measured exactly
the same as the clear Poly fuel line I ordered. I've used it and haven't
seen any problems. I think the pulse line needs to have a "beefier" wall
thickness but haven't seen too much on this issue.
If I were using auto fuel line, I'd use the R-9 fuel injection type for
the pulse line??? Still unsure on this issue??
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Hi Clem, I use a length of aluminum fuel line connected at both ends with a
short piece of rubber fuel line for my impulse tube. It can't collapse and
works great for the 12 years I have flown my Fox..
Ron
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: EGT probe depth |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/19/04 7:46:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
aerocontrols@clearwave.ca writes:
<< Hi Don,
I just went out to the shop and looked at a "clamp-on type" EGT probe
installed into a 582 manifold. The tip of the probe is about 1/8" away from
the opposite wall of the manifold (i.e. almost all the way across). Seeing
as this type of EGT probe was the norm, up till rotax started putting
weld-on bosses to mount the EGTs, I would take this as correct.
Always trust the plugs rather than the gauge unless, o course, you are
installnig real expensive EGT gauses (Alcor etc). Did this airplane run on
any Av-gas cause that can cause a lighter color than mo-gas.
You might want to try new probes or a new gauge itself. These Westburg and
import gauges are notorious for being inaccurate.
They do give us a chance to see day to day changes in our exhaust gas temps,
which is what we want anyway.
regards
Bob Robertson >>
Bob,
Good to hear from you. How's the bears up your way? No, the engine did
not use any av-gas. Everything I've looked at calls for a 1/2 penetration of
the probe into the exhaust manifold and, that almost makes sense. Again, my
biggest question is, what is the temp difference if you insert the probe 1/4,
1/2 or, all the way to the back wall???? If the temp difference is small
then, this is not a concern. If the temp difference is 200 or more degrees then
it becomes very important.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 32
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Going back to the backup pump theme, it would not work with the Mikuni
because
of the pulse line, but could be a good alternative for other type of pumps.
However,
that my friend is another story beyond the scope of the 582ers.
Jose,
I'm not sure if I follow you correctly. Why do you say the backup
pump system won't work with the Mikuni because of the pulse line ? Is it
because if the pulse line leaks that we will have some degradation of
crankcase pressures ?
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 33
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| Subject: | Ruptured diaphram |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
On the diaphragm rupture thing,,,,,I would bet by the time you realize
you have a ruptured diaphragm, it will be too late to twist a valve, select
a
bypass or, turn on a pump.
Don,
I agree and feel the diaphram could suddenly split and cause
flooding due to sucking fuel into the crankcase through the pulse line
quicker than you can react. However as pointed out elsewhere this is more
likely to be gradual. Also if it is sudden wouldn't we be likely to be able
to turn the tap/valve to the Mikuni pump off even after the motor flooded
and stopped and simply restart it on the backup pump. I think that the prop
would continue to windmill after the motor ceased firing due to flooding and
continue windmilling after we turned off the valve/tap so pumping out the
flooding. Starting should then simply mean turning on the backup pump to get
the right mixture again. The motor hopefully will windmill at more than
300RPM required for the CDI"S if we have them and so simply fire up again.
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 34
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| Subject: | NSI EA-81 fuel injection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
You know I don't remember and I was pretty focused just on flying so I
didn't take notes. I do remember I was still climbing at 500FPM and was
still above sea level pressure. I just used a simple O2 bottle with basic
regulator at dialed it up as I went up, kind of spooky for me and the little
fox.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI EA-81 fuel injection
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I haven't found an oxygen source for under $400 yet,
so I haven't been near that high.
Did you see at what altitude the power started to drop
off? If I remember, Lance said the turbo was good for
100% to 12-14,000 feet.
What was your fuel flow at 170,900 and 170? Not that
I would do that regularily either. But from the FF
you can guess pretty closely on the hp you were able
to use up there.
Well, I have the small turbo, so results will vary.
Kurt S.
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> That sounds right. BTW at 17,900 MSL I had no high
> EGT problems even at full power and an a GPS GS of
> about 170. Only did that once. :)
>
> Rick
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 35
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
I don't think there is any need to add a check valve to the Facet as it has
one internally. That's one less plumbing item needed.
Good point Darrell,
I didn't realise that the Facet pump had a non
return check valve. However when one thinks about it I suppose it has to. I
think this does indeed simplify matters. In fact I think it means we would
not need a tap/valve say under the instrument panel for that line or the
electric solenoid I suggested. I really need to think that through a bit
though.
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Ruptured diaphram |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
<< likely to be gradual. Also if it is sudden wouldn't we be likely to be able
to turn the tap/valve to the Mikuni pump off even after the motor flooded
and stopped and simply restart it on the backup pump. I think that the prop
would continue to windmill after the motor ceased firing due to flooding and
continue windmilling after we turned off the valve/tap so pumping out the
flooding. Starting should then simply mean turning on the backup pump to g >>
I have no idea how hard it would be to start a flooded engine of that sort.
Someone has to go test it. Until it's tested, I have to assume it would be
impossible.
Assume the Mik pump fails and you kick in the bypass. If you don't have the
system plumbed where all inputs/outputs of the Mic are isolated, that backup
fuel is going to continue to fill the crankcase through the Mik/pulse line.
There is a check valve in the MIk pump outlet (I was wrong before) that will
keep the bypass fuel from entering backwards into the pump. However, the inlet
will still see pressure from the backup pump. Plumbing gets difficult. The
biggest obstacle is detecting the problem in time to make a corrective action.
This is an old topic and always gives me a headache.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful....
John, Do you have a suggestion on where to get one? And thanks for your
info below. It does sound like trouble shooting the carb would be a chore.
Since John McBean says EGT's are in the right range for full throttle
operation, I think I will try some more flying (either me or my friend) some
more and get a read on the plugs as Don suggested with Steve's procedure.
Thanks,
Randy - N10NH
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges
with the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main
jet(full throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit
challenging. When I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude,
etc there is little variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to
an economy cruise. Most times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or
fall slightly as the throttle is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes
are at the same time sensitive and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I
remember correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about
2 1/2 turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting
ended up in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is
4450' and idle (nor main jet) is not affected by the "compression
compensation" built into the carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
>
> Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
> I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
> info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
> to change the setting in the EIS. !!
>
> And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
> be OK.
>
> I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out
at
> an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
> for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
> steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
> Begnaud
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
>
> Randy,
> Congrats on the first flight!
> What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
> than 8".
> Cliff
> Erie, co
>
> >
> > A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> > flight. IT FLYS!
> >
> > But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> > that
> > the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> > The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
> >
> > I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it
is
> > 8" from the head.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments and help.
> >
> > Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges
with the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main
jet(full throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit
challenging. When I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude,
etc there is little variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to
an economy cruise. Most times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or
fall slightly as the throttle is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes
are at the same time sensitive and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I
remember correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about
2 1/2 turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting
ended up in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is 4450'
and idle (nor main jet) isnot affected by the "compression compensation"
built into the carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<RJDAUGH@RAPIDNET.COM>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
&
gt;
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<SHOELESS@BAREFOOTPILOT.COM>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
flight. IT FLYS!
But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
that
the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
The 1500 is what
I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
8" from the head.
I would appreciate any comments and help.
Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
!
.matronics.com/archives
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Don you are correct,
Fuel injection line is ok but not regular fuel line.
there is a heavy wall urethane line as wall with double the thickness of
regular 1/4 " line.
I think it is 1/8 wall -- regualr is 1/16 wall ( i think )
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> <<
> Am I mistaken, or is it OK to use regular automotive fuel line as an
impulse
> line?
>
> Clem Nichols >>
>
> Clem,
> That is a good question. CPS and Spruce sells clear Poly line that is
> specifically for the pulse line. The last order I received, it measured
exactly
> the same as the clear Poly fuel line I ordered. I've used it and haven't
> seen any problems. I think the pulse line needs to have a "beefier" wall
> thickness but haven't seen too much on this issue.
> If I were using auto fuel line, I'd use the R-9 fuel injection type
for
> the pulse line??? Still unsure on this issue??
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Try http://www.bingcarburetor.com/ I believe the manuals are $8.95
Blue Skies
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful....
John, Do you have a suggestion on where to get one? And thanks for your
info below. It does sound like trouble shooting the carb would be a chore.
Since John McBean says EGT's are in the right range for full throttle
operation, I think I will try some more flying (either me or my friend) some
more and get a read on the plugs as Don suggested with Steve's procedure.
Thanks,
Randy - N10NH
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
kerrjohna@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges
with the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main
jet(full throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit
challenging. When I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude,
etc there is little variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to
an economy cruise. Most times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or
fall slightly as the throttle is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes
are at the same time sensitive and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I
remember correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about
2 1/2 turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting
ended up in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is
4450' and idle (nor main jet) is not affected by the "compression
compensation" built into the carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
>
> Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
> I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
> info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
> to change the setting in the EIS. !!
>
> And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
> be OK.
>
> I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out
at
> an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
> for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
> steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
> Begnaud
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>
>
> Randy,
> Congrats on the first flight!
> What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
> than 8".
> Cliff
> Erie, co
>
> >
> > A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
> > flight. IT FLYS!
> >
> > But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
> > that
> > the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
> > The 1500 is what I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
> >
> > I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it
is
> > 8" from the head.
> >
> > I would appreciate any comments and help.
> >
> > Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
> >
>
>
obtaining a Bing manual can be very helpful. there are 3 overlapping ranges
with the bing carb: Idle, Idle/needle, needle, needle/main jet, and main
jet(full throttle). This makes interpretting the carb operation a bit
challenging. When I feel mine are exactly in tune with weather, altitude,
etc there is little variation of EGT when moving from full throttle down to
an economy cruise. Most times, depending on conditions the EGT will rise or
fall slightly as the throttle is retarded. The carburators that Bing makes
are at the same time sensitive and forgiving.
My first guess is that the idle mixture is set too rich. I am not sure if I
remember correctly but it seems that the idle screw is factory-set at about
2 1/2 turns. As I worked with mine to obtain peak rpms at idle the setting
ended up in the neighborhood of 1/2 turn from full off. My altitude is 4450'
and idle (nor main jet) isnot affected by the "compression compensation"
built into the carb.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
<RJDAUGH@RAPIDNET.COM>
Thanks Cliff, John, and Don,
I do need to educate myself more on what jet is in the carb, but John's
info makes it look like it is doing what it is supposed to do. - I just
need
to change the setting in the EIS. !!
And as Don pointed out, I need to get a read from the spark plugs. All may
be OK.
I need to check the distance from the piston again. I have the plane out at
an airport on the plains right now. I thought that would be a better place
for the first flights than here at my strip. My strip is surrounded by
steep cliffs and mountains with limited emergency landing options.
Randy
.
&
gt;
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S exhaust temperature and N10NH Flys!
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<SHOELESS@BAREFOOTPILOT.COM>
Randy,
Congrats on the first flight!
What is main jet # that is installed? On our 912 the probe was much closer
than 8".
Cliff
Erie, co
A friend, CFI and very experienced pilot, flew my plane for its first
flight. IT FLYS!
But under full power (912S) the EGT went to 1600 F. I have in my notes
that
the max EGT is 1500 for the 912S. ...but I am not sure where I got that.
The 1500 is what
I set in as a limit in the Grand Rapids EIS.
I installed the probes according to the EIS instructions. I believe it is
8" from the head.
I would appreciate any comments and help.
Randy - Did I mention it flys!?
!
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| Subject: | Ruptured diaphram |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Corner <jcorner@shaw.ca>
Don
Why don't you just use two facet pumps, parallel, with redundant check
valves, and eliminate your troublesome Mukini.
Use dual batteries and an essential bus wiring system. When was your
last total electrical failure? Does it happen more often than your
ruptured diaphragm or pulse line?
Flying is not totally without risks. I have more than 1000 582 hours
without a Mik pump failure. I rebuilt half way, and I just replaced the
Mik pump complete when I installed a new Blue Head. Still flying and
relying on a single Mukini pump!!
Did have one very unpleasant failure and that was a failed "O" ring in
my fuel shut-off valve.
At some point we all have to pick our poison and live with the
risks...oh yeah , and watch out for the other driver!! :-)
Jim
>
> << likely to be gradual. Also if it is sudden wouldn't we be
> likely to be able to turn the tap/valve to the Mikuni pump
> off even after the motor flooded and stopped and simply
> restart it on the backup pump. I think that the prop would
> continue to windmill after the motor ceased firing due to
> flooding and continue windmilling after we turned off the
> valve/tap so pumping out the flooding. Starting should then
> simply mean turning on the backup pump to g >>
>
>
> I have no idea how hard it would be to start a flooded engine
> of that sort.
> Someone has to go test it. Until it's tested, I have to
> assume it would be
> impossible.
>
> Assume the Mik pump fails and you kick in the bypass. If you
> don't have the
> system plumbed where all inputs/outputs of the Mic are
> isolated, that backup
> fuel is going to continue to fill the crankcase through the
> Mik/pulse line.
> There is a check valve in the MIk pump outlet (I was wrong
> before) that will
> keep the bypass fuel from entering backwards into the pump.
> However, the inlet
> will still see pressure from the backup pump. Plumbing gets
> difficult. The
> biggest obstacle is detecting the problem in time to make a
> corrective action.
> This is an old topic and always gives me a headache.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532 and switching to a 582 oil |
injected eng...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
I think 2.5 lbs is the recommended pressure for the Bing carbs on the 582.
Jerry Liles
Jose M. Toro wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
>Don:
>
>I guess 5 pounds is the maximum allowable (don't remember either), but for sure
it is within range. If the main pump diaphram fails, the electric pump will
keep fuel pressure if it is parallel to the main pump.
>
>Jose
>
>AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 11/17/04 4:40:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>jose_m_toro@yahoo.com writes:
>
><< Don:
>
>Like Ron, I would not fly without a back-up pump. You get the isolation by
>using the pumps in parallel. If one pump fails, you get the same flow through
>the other. I turn on the electric fuel pump before starting the engine. The
>pressure gauge reads 3 pounds. When the engine starts, it keeps reading 3
>pounds no matter if I keep it on or turn it off. During take off (full power),
>pressure increases to 5 pounds >>
>
>I'm not against back-up pumps. Just pointed out that a back-up pump is no
>protection if the main pump's diaphram ruptures. However, as pointed out, the
>back-up saved the bacon with clogged filters. BTW, I can't find the specs but
>seem to remember that 5 pounds might be too high for the Bing 54????? Bad
>memory...
>
>Don Smythe
>N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
>Jose M. Toro, P.E.
>Kitfox II/582
>"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Rex:
What I mean is that the backup pump will take care of providing appropriate fuel
pressure to the carbs, but at the same time the mikuni pump with the damaged
diaphragm will take care of flooding the crankcase, and will eventually stop
the engine. Could be solved by using a valve to close the gas source to the mikuni,
but will the engine restart after it got flooded?
Jose
Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw"
Going back to the backup pump theme, it would not work with the Mikuni
because
of the pulse line, but could be a good alternative for other type of pumps.
However,
that my friend is another story beyond the scope of the 582ers.
Jose,
I'm not sure if I follow you correctly. Why do you say the backup
pump system won't work with the Mikuni because of the pulse line ? Is it
because if the pulse line leaks that we will have some degradation of
crankcase pressures ?
Rex.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: ruptured impulse line |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Clem:
For the complete installation including the pulse line, I have used automotive
fuel injection for many years. Have not failed...so far.
Jose
shortnaked <shortnaked@golden.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
someone had it on this plane with a 582
this is what happened.
fuel line should not be automotive either
use urethane NOT TYGON
TYGON will harden ina a year
hope this helps you
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Nichols"
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols"
>
> Am I mistaken, or is it OK to use regular automotive fuel line as an
impulse
> line?
>
> Clem Nichols
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "shortnaked"
> To:
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
> >
> > anytime
> >
> > see i live in a real world and like to try to help out others with
facts
> >
> > pictures prove it
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Harris, Robert"
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> >
> >
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks for the pics Shorty
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shortnaked
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: ruptured impulse line
> >>
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked"
> >>
> >> Here you go guys a failure of an impulse line i changed the other day.
> >>
> >> posted on this lazair.com site as it the only way i know how to post a
> > pic
> >> and share it.
> >> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=268
> >> Plus if you like LAzair ultralights it full of info adn some MOVIES up
> >> to
> >> 200 mgs
> >> http://lazair.com/forum/index.php?showforum=12
> >>
> >> all free too
> >>
> >> gotta like that lol
> >>
> >> maybe i should start a kitfox thread there for you guys LOL ( i been
> >> sneaking some stuff in already adn no complaints)
> >>
> >> Shorty
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From:
> >> To:
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Backup for Mikuni pump
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
> >> >
> >> > << Listers:
> >> >
> >> > It looks like replacing the mikuni fuel pump annually with a brand
new
> >> one
> >> > solves the backup pump issue. I would add to this to also replace
the
> >> pulse
> >> > line.
> >> >
> >> > To be honest, it makes sense. Seems extremely unlikely to fail
during
> >> its
> >> > first year, and is cheap enough to be economically feasible.
> >> >
> >> > You convinced me I made an overkill. This is why I'm an addict to
> >> > this
> >> > list...
> >> >
> >> > Jose
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > Jose,
> >> > It is a privilege to discuss problems with someone like yourself.
> > You
> >> > don't mind saying, "you might have made a mistake". There are others
> > that
> >> would
> >> > rather die than admit something like that. I like criticism if it's
> > kept
> >> > nonpersonal. That's what makes us learn.
> >> > BTW, I can recall one pump failure (crash landing) that was
caused
> > by
> >> a
> >> > ruptured pulse line. As I recall, the pulse line had not been
changed
> > in
> >> a
> >> > long/long time. Pilot error the way I see it.
> >> >
> >> > Don Smythe
> >> > N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gravity flow |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
Avid did a trial using gravity feed only with a 582 MK IV. The airplane
would deliver enough fuel for level cruise flight and, I think, even
full throttle level flight but could not keep up with full throttle in
climb attitude apparently due to the diminshed head pressure as the
distance between the engine and tanks was reduced by the nose up
attitude. It is possible using larger diameter feed lines would make a
difference. John Larsen was one of the people who did the test using
his Avid. I've also been told, but not confirmed, that the Bings
supplied have a small diameter float valve orifice for a pump pressure
feed system. It could be just opening the orifice a bit would make the
difference for gravity feed, might mess it up for a pump though.
Jerry Liles
AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
><<
> Well-, we are much back to the basic, the "gravity" system! This might
> be the only one, simple enough to work in any case, well, -except for
> those aerobatics ...
>
> You'll Know , the system only delivering fuel - based on the gravity -
> is, always the number one, at last, for me. :) >>
>
>
>Torgeir,
> If you are talking about "gravity" only (no pumps at all), we tried
>that.....If I recall correctly, JR once plumbed his engine up and bypassed the
>pulse pump (gravity only). He was able to run the engine at low speed but the
>mixture went lean as he advanced the throttle.
> It would be nice to come up with a system that relied on gravity only.
>No pumps, no pulse line. On the other hand, the backup electric pump proved
>worth while on the clogged filter situation.
>
>Don Smythe
>N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
>
Message 45
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
If the Mikuni diaphragm ruptures, expect to make a landing without power
no matter what you have for backup. You are unlikely to diagnose the
problem and shut off the fuel to the Mikuni and start the backup before
it is too late. Fiddling around with the extra valves and trying to
restart the engine will detract from the real necessity to fly the
airplane to a safe landing.
My 2cents
Jerry Liles
Jose M. Toro wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
>
>Rex:
>
>What I mean is that the backup pump will take care of providing appropriate fuel
pressure to the carbs, but at the same time the mikuni pump with the damaged
diaphragm will take care of flooding the crankcase, and will eventually stop
the engine. Could be solved by using a valve to close the gas source to the
mikuni, but will the engine restart after it got flooded?
>
>Jose
>
>Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw"
>
>Going back to the backup pump theme, it would not work with the Mikuni
>because
>of the pulse line, but could be a good alternative for other type of pumps.
>However,
>that my friend is another story beyond the scope of the 582ers.
>
>Jose,
>I'm not sure if I follow you correctly. Why do you say the backup
>pump system won't work with the Mikuni because of the pulse line ? Is it
>because if the pulse line leaks that we will have some degradation of
>crankcase pressures ?
>
>Rex.
>rexjan@bigpond.com
>
>
>Jose M. Toro, P.E.
>Kitfox II/582
>"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
>
>
>
Message 46
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> I don't think there is any need to add a check valve
> to the Facet as it has one internally. That's one
> less plumbing item needed.....
Actually it is the failure of the internal check valve
that may cause the Facet pump to fail. If this
happens, a second parallel pump would only run the
fuel in a circle thru the first pump, if you don't
have a backup check valve. All it takes is a little
debris to clog this valve and the pump will just move
fuel back and forth instead if in one direction.
The good thing about the Facet - they won't pump into
your crankcase if they fail. I liked the suggestion
of 2 electric pumps and no diaphram pump with access
to the crankcase in the event of failure. I like all
my failures to be non-critical.
But then are we chasing a problem or a ghost? Because
we each have personalized planes, engines and fuel
systems, each builder will have to decide in the end
what risks to accept. The discussion should make all
our decisions a bit better informed, so I am glad to
see all the ideas flying about. I didn't marry my
fuel system, so it is open to change for the better
too.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 47
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| Subject: | NSI EA-81 fuel injection |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Spooky? I know what you mean. That honestly is the
reason I haven't ventured anywhere near as high as the
NSI KF would go. Flight levels are OK with me in a
Boeing with a cockpit the size of my study, but in a
little KF with a full glass door next to me and the
feeling I would only be a bug on a jet's window....
If you still had better than sea level MP at 179,000,
and were getting 500'/min, you weren't even
normalized. Probably good for another 5-10,000 feet I
bet. Good for an EAA record attempt too, but I would
want 2 full pressure oxygen systems, FAA approval and
a good heater, thermal undies, etc... Even then it
would take you a long time to get down in a KF if you
needed to. My insecurities are a little too high for
doing that stuff. So, spooky - yes.
Kurt S.
--- Rick <turboflyer@comcast.net> wrote:
> You know I don't remember and I was pretty focused
> just on flying so I
> didn't take notes. I do remember I was still
> climbing at 500FPM and was
> still above sea level pressure. I just used a simple
> O2 bottle with basic
> regulator at dialed it up as I went up, kind of
> spooky for me and the little
> fox.
>
> Rick
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Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: EGT probe depth |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Interesting. It was also my understanding that you
wanted to read the temp at the center of the flame
pattern/exhaust and not the edges.
Don, it might be worth it to adjust one side for the
middle and compare it to the other side in flight and
see what the difference really is. Maybe you are
running hot and lean? Or maybe I am not running as
hot as I think???
Kurt S.
--- AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> Bob,
> Good to hear from you. How's the bears up your
> way? No, the engine did
> not use any av-gas. Everything I've looked at calls
> for a 1/2 penetration of the probe into the exhaust
> manifold and, that almost makes sense. Again, my
> biggest question is, what is the temp difference if
> you insert the probe 1/4, 1/2 or, all the way to the
> back wall???? If the temp difference is small
> then, this is not a concern. If the temp difference
> is 200 or more degrees then it becomes very
> important.
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: I am pulling the 532...(Kurt). |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Jose,
Mine has 2 electric Facet pumps only. Neither is
under the seat. The origional NSI design called for
only one electric pump. I installed the fuel system
per NSI instructions, but added a Facet pump in series
at the header tank for the B/U. I also added the F/F
meter. It works, is simple and has few connections,
but I don't like it yet. I am likely going to change
it in the future.
It flows like this:
- Wing tanks to header. No extra filters or
shutoffs. That could change. I've already bought
the 3/8th inch lines vice 5/16th.
- Header directly to Facet pump for pressure from the
low point
--- Then under center counsel---
- Fuel shutoff
- Fuel filter
- F/F sender
--- Firewall FWD ---
- Facet pump, mostly suction
- Gascolator
- Carb
In flight, you can use the front pump to overcome a
small fuel leak (drip) prior to it since it is a
suction pump. You can use the rear pump to overcome a
small air leak since it is a pressure pump. Key word
is small and that is only to get you to the ground
powered in case of a little leak. Theoritically...
I don't like the pump and gascolator fwd of the
firewall. They are below the firewall mount and
create a high point at the firewall for trapping air.
They are where they can vapor lock, though I have
protected them. The gascolator drains within 2 inches
of the exhaust outlet. The gascolator may go away and
I'll use the header tank as the trap. It has a drain.
The front pump could move under the seat to keep it
cool. This could make it all up hill from the rear
header pump forward to the carb.
My fuel filter mount creates another high/low point.
Though it is easy to get at now, I'll probably have to
move it to get better flow and no trapped air. The
problem is that the filter must be mounted vertically
to release its trapped air. I haven't decided where
to move it to.
I am still looking for a good fuel pressure switch.
The goal is to turn on the front pump thru the
pressure switch. By my design, the rear pump pressure
turns off the front pump when its pressure is
sufficient and becomes the main pump. When the rear
pump fails, the front pump automatically turns on. An
LED simply tells you that the front pump is now
operating and is your only way of knowing the main
pump failed, since the system keeps working and you
keep smiling.
With the pressure switch added, my design's main
failing point is clogging after the header tank.
There are no redundant paths. Other than that, it is
K-I-S-S.
Without the pressure switch, I have to turn on the
second pump manually after troubleshooting the
problem. Not good close to the ground.
I tried using a pressure regulator and leaving both
pumps on, but found the regulator could stop all flow
if it failed. Mine did.
If I can't find an adequate pressure switch, I can run
both pumps continuously at lower pressure and just
have 50% pressure if one fails.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kurt:
>
> I'm done with the backup pump issue for Mikuni pumps
> and 582s...it won't solve the pulse line issue.
> However, I will be shortly switching to a Jabiru
> engine, and most likely will use a backup pump in
> that implementation.
>
> Your Subaru engine installation is closer to the
> Jabiru installion than the 582 installation I
> currently have.
>
> I would like to learn a little bit more about your
> dual pump approach. What kind of fuel pump is the
> main in your installation. Are your electric pumps,
> after the header tank, under the seat like Peter
> G's?
>
> Jose
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