Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: model IV wing tanks (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: Wing Tanks (Roberto Canino)
3. 05:26 AM - skis (Dee Young)
4. 05:37 AM - Re: skis (shortnaked)
5. 05:38 AM - Registering and paperwork (Flybradair@cs.com)
6. 05:55 AM - Re: Prop Turbin Ducted-Fan (Roberto Canino)
7. 08:01 AM - Re: skis (Dee Young)
8. 08:14 AM - Re: Series 5 empty weights. was: Engine choices/ Read the story (Randy Daughenbaugh)
9. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Engine choices/ Read the story (Randy Daughenbaugh)
10. 08:20 AM - Re: skis (shortnaked)
11. 08:47 AM - Re: Series 5 empty weights. was: Engine choices/ Read the story (Clifford Begnaud)
12. 09:37 AM - Series 5 weights (Harris, Robert)
13. 09:54 AM - IV FWF Subaru (Kaufjm@aol.com)
14. 10:12 AM - Re: skis (Dee Young)
15. 10:27 AM - Re: Series 5 weights (Steve Cooper)
16. 11:40 AM - Re: Series 5 weights (Fox5flyer)
17. 11:42 AM - Saludos desde Puerto Rico (Jose M. Toro)
18. 12:51 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (kurt schrader)
19. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: Engine choices/ Read the story (kurt schrader)
20. 01:09 PM - Primer Info for a 912ULS (David Estapa)
21. 01:10 PM - Re: Leading Edge ? (kurt schrader)
22. 01:24 PM - Re: Series 5 weights (kurt schrader)
23. 01:33 PM - Re: model IV wing tanks (paul wilson)
24. 01:33 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (paul wilson)
25. 01:33 PM - Re: model IV wing tanks (paul wilson)
26. 01:52 PM - Re: Leading Edge ? (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
27. 02:56 PM - New Bose X Headsets (Jeff Smathers)
28. 03:52 PM - Re: Re: Engine choices/ Read the story (Clifford Begnaud)
29. 04:06 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
30. 04:19 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (shortnaked)
31. 04:21 PM - re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees (Rex & Jan Shaw)
32. 04:28 PM - Re: skis (Jim Burke)
33. 05:07 PM - Re: skis (shortnaked)
34. 05:09 PM - Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees (shortnaked)
35. 05:18 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
36. 05:22 PM - Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
37. 06:28 PM - Re: Series 5 weights (Fox5flyer)
38. 06:51 PM - Re: Registering and paperwork (Randy Daughenbaugh)
39. 07:40 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (Rick)
40. 10:49 PM - Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees (kurt schrader)
41. 11:02 PM - Re: cutting exhaust pipe (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: model IV wing tanks |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 1/2/05 8:21:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
7suds@chartermi.net writes:
<< Don,
Ever thought about going all the way to the wing tip and using a nacca vent
out the top or side? The Lancair 4-P is using this concept in the side of
the winglet.
Lloyd >>
Yes, I toyed with the idea of going all the way to the wing tip. I was
primarily concerned with getting enough height to prevent spillage out the vent.
I
finally decided to only go half way but as I said, I still get spillage when
turning on the ground with full tanks. However, it's not that bad.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Roberto Canino <robertocannino@yahoo.com>
WOW! Now that's an argument against aluminum tanks.
But "ripping" as aluminum does, under stress is better
than bursting, which glass can do. This creates an
instantaneous fuel-vapor bomb, if ignited of course.
Did this wing tank incident have anything to do with
Denny selling Kitfox?
The Citabria I'm currently flying I hope to have a
look at before I go any further. I've read the
Citabria wing is legendary for it's amazing strength
resulting from flex, so perhaps it will be a good
model to emulate.
I'm an apprentice A&P and want to build a fuel system,
I guess that's really the big issue. Further, the
$1000 for the tanks, sporadic communication problems
with SkyStar and infirm delivery date are big issues
as well.
This is all really good info and I really appreciate
all the input, this is a very helpful chat. My
thinking regarding fiberglass is: that for a one-off,
aluminum is easier and if properly isolated from
forces that will distort the tank to failure it is
stronger long term, unless the fiberglass tank is
built with exotic glass cloth which requires
pre-impregnated cloth, bagging and heat to cure
properly; skill and equipment beyond me. I've
discussed this with my "masters" and sketched out a
lightweight frame to reinforce the wing, once the
second rib is removed. Then, using thin kevlar
strapping weave a "basket" that will hold the tank
snugly in place within the frame, which is in turn
attached to the spar and ribs. The basket-strapping
would be: in multiple lengths, not a single length,
thus creating structural redundancy, very light weight
and immense strength.
Another gentleman suggested lining the tank with some
sort of chemical stuff. I seem to recall hearing that
these products can begin to disintegrate into bits and
pieces over time... no solid reference, but a scary
proposition perhaps???
It seems this is a situation where copying Wichita may
be best????
B
--- Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw"
> <rexjan@bigpond.com>
>
> I'm planning to fabricate aluminum wing tanks for my
> model IV. Position and displacement appear pretty
> straight forward, but I was wondering if anyone had
> any suggestions on:
> - securing the tanks between ribs
> - plumbing into the main tank
>
> Can't you still get fibreglass tanks from Skystar
> for a MKIV ? The idea of
> aluminium worries me stupid. Tony that built my MKIV
> originally built an
> earlier model [ MKIII I think ] that had aluminium
> tanks. One split in
> fight pouring fuel all over him and his passenger.
> He was over tiger country
> but never the less shut down and glided down. On
> landing they both walked
> away but destroyed the plane. I think it was Denney
> Aircraft Corp' then but
> after threatening to sue they gave him another kit
> which is now my plane.
> These aluminium tanks were notorious for splitting.
> Maybe you can make a
> better job of it I don't know. There has been
> problems with junk in the
> fibreglas tanks but I certainly know which I prefer.
> Anyway I just thought I would point this out in case
> you hadn't heard about
> the aluminium tanks splitting.
>
> Rex.
> rexjan@bigpond.com
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 06:25:12 -0700
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With some recent
discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to some.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do Not Archive
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Dee,
Only skis i see are these both Rc ones
http://search.ebay.com/aircraft-snow_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQcatrefZC6QQsotrtypeZ1QQsotrvalueZ1QQsadistanceZ200QQsopostalZQ5AIPQ2FPostalQQsosortpropertyZ3QQsosortorderZ2QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch
Can you provide a direct link ?
Thx Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
>
> A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With
some recent discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to
some.
>
>
> Dee Young
> Model II
> N345DY
>
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Registering and paperwork |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Flybradair@cs.com
Need to get the paperwork started.
I have picked up the amateur-built packet from the local FSDO and want to
make sure I don't screw it up to bad.
I have no N-number reserved so I am starting from the beginning.
Would I first need to submit a letter for the special N number then wait for
the FAA to send a number back to me before sending in 8050-88,8050-2, and
8050-1 for the registration process?
Or......
Could I send in request for N number along with forms 8050-88,8050-1, and
8050-2 with N number left blank?
Or.....
Any suggestions?
Brad Martin
Wichita
5-lyc o-235
Wiring almost done.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Turbin Ducted-Fan |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Roberto Canino <robertocannino@yahoo.com>
--- AV8OR27RL@cs.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AV8OR27RL@cs.com
>
> OK I broke my silence so here goes.
> At the risk of showing my ignorance I have a
> question for someone
> knowledgeable about turbines and fans. We all know
> you can only turn a propeller just
> so fast. The thing about staying under Mach or .88
> Mach being Ideal or
> whatever but as I understand it these rules don't
> apply to turbines and ducted fans.
> If High RPM can be utilized there are a lot of
> inexpensive, light weight,
> high performance engines out there we could be using
> in aviation (without heavy,
> expensive reduction drives). OK to laugh at me but
> could someone explain this.
> It's been eating at me for years.
>
> Bob Locey
> Kitfox II
Bob,
Props function well in a very small range on either
side of STP, thus sea-level to a few tens of thousand
ft. Inside of a jet (shaft turbine or exhaust driven)
the temp and pressure are highly controlled by lots of
blades in stages alternating with stators and
combustion chambers designed by really, really bright
engineers to facilitate the amazingly high temps and
revs turbines spin at. Check out the NASA/Williams
endeavors and the really cool Engine Alliance (EA)
co-op endeavor btwn Pratt and GE
(www.enginealliance.com).
You simply cannot compare atmosphere and the enviorn
inside a fan jet where props are concerned -and- as
far as shaft turbines (fan jets with output shafts
such as the classic P&W PT-6 workhorse)are concerned,
the props on the shaft generating thrust are subject
to the same limitations as your Kitfox II. Ducted
fans represent great sacrifices in power/weight for
maneuverability, think water not air. The Moeller
SkyCar is the notable exception, but I don't know if
one has ever flown? Jump Jets are not ducted fans,
rather conventional turbines with variable venting.
Hope this is helpful and perhaps even accurate, don't
bet on it.
Anybody laughing at honest inquiry is doomed to
intellectual limits sooner or later, regardless of how
gifted.
B
__________________________________
Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
Message 7
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Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:00:28 -0700
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1>
----- Original Message -----
From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:25 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With some recent
discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to some.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do Not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Series 5 empty weights. was: Engine choices/ Read the |
story
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Cliff,
I do have the Series 7 firewall forward kit. I really like its provisions
for radiator airflow, oil cooler air flow, general streamlining, and the
seal at the firewall. I have spring aluminum gear with big 8.00 tires. I
have the Apollo SL-40 and a KT76A transponder with Mode C. I have a heavy
ELT, but will probably stay with it until I have to trash it for the new
version in a few years.
The battery is the Hawker Odyssey PC625 which seems great so far - it is
mounted on the firewall with no battery box.
I have the Powerfin "F", 72" prop which really seems to tie the plane to the
air! It is still a bit too flat, but boy, it sure makes the plane jump off
the runway.
Tail wheel is the Maule P8B. I was pretty happy with it until I flew a
friend's series 5 with a Matco tail wheel. They are very much the same -
even break loose the same. But the problem that I have with the Maule is
you seem to have to "search" for it to get it back tracking after it is
broken loose. The Matco just seems to be there when you want it tracking
again.
Incidentally, my landing strip is ready for visitors.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clifford
Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 5 empty weights. was: Engine choices/ Read
the story
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Randy,
That is light! Did you use the new series 7 Firewall forward kit or a S5/6
FF? Do you have spring aluminum landing gear?
Radio and transponder? Lightweight battery? Which tailwheel and which prop?
Best regards,
Cliff
>
> Ben,
> Mine came in at 776 lbs with the 912S. I would like to think it is on the
> light side.
>
> I should have claimed 1320 for max gross, but the DAR told me I could
> change
> it later.
>
> Randy
>
> .
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choices/ Read the story |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Lonnie,
What prop are you running on the 3300?
Randy - Series 5/7 with Powerfin prop
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Lonnie_D._Tillinghast@oxy.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Engine choices/ Read the story
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <Lonnie_D._Tillinghast@oxy.com>
Clint, was it a Jabiru 2200 (4-cylinder) or 3300 (6-cylinder)? I
recently bought a 5 with a 3300 in it after looking for more than a year
at all the engine combinations that are available. I can not believe
the performance and how quiet and smooth the Jabiru is...I especially
like the simplicity of it.
The Fox weighs 812lbs with Grove landing gear, Maule tail wheel, wheel
pants, GPS, CD player, etc. It makes no difference if you have one or
two people in it...quarter full of gas or topped off, she JUMPS off the
ground!
Thanks,
Lonnie
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
<clint_bazzill@hotmail.com
<mailto:clint_bazzill@hotmail.com?subjectRe:%20Engine%20choices/%20Read
%20the%20story&replyto200412302039.iBUKd3j15592@matronics.com> >
Thanks Lowell for the good info. I also am flying behind a Rotax 912
only
its the S version. This combination for a Kitfix cannot be beat. I
have
flown in planes with the Jabiru, they are nice engines but lack a
redrive
which makes them poor in climb performance.
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Hi Dee,
did a search foiund nothing
your link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1
came back as this
This listing () has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered the
item number correctly.
Please consider this listing and transaction as cancelled. If anybody
contacts you to complete the sale, please ignore the request. Completing the
sale outside of eBay may be unsafe and will not be covered by eBay purchase
protection programs.
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:25 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young"
<henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
>
> A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With
some recent discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to
some.
>
>
> Dee Young
> Model II
> N345DY
>
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 empty weights. was: Engine choices/ Read the |
story
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Randy,
Thanks for the report on your plane.
Sounds like you did a great job of building it light.
Consider the 6" Homebuilders Special Tailwheel from Aircraft Spruce. I flew
about 750 hours with one on our first Kitfox and just loved it. I now have
the 8" pneumatic Maule and have the same problem that you do. I plan to
replace it with the HBS.
Are you having any trouble making full stall, 3 point landings when lightly
loaded? With flaps?
BTW, what are the gps coordinates of your airstrip, I'd like to put it in my
GPS. I hope to get out there to see your place this year.
Best Regards,
Cliff
do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Series 5 weights |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
My model 5 with 0200 is 882#s, warp prop, 8 inch tires, maule 8nmb tail
wheel, mode c, basic VFR, aftermarket light weight starter and mags.
Comparable Model 5 with Rotax 912(slipper clutch) would be 800#'s.
Soob would be a good way to go and has many advantages.
Robert
Hi Ben,
The KF Pilot's Guide has some "nice" model 5 numbers
Engine Empty weight
912s = 750 lbs
O-200 = 850 lbs
O-235 = 900 lbs (I use this data for the Soobs)
O-240 = 900 lbs
It should be noted that the SS S-5 demo plane was
about 1000 lbs with the O-240, so they didn't hit the
goal weight either. My Soob S-5 is about 950 lbs with
the heavy gear, CAP prop, heavy seat cushions, full
panel, etc. 200 lbs heavier than the 912s "nice"
weight, but I don't know any real weights for the
Rotax S-5's to compare to.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Kaufjm@aol.com
I have a Subaru FWF for a Kitfox IV. contact me at kaufjm@aol.com or
563-332-9217.
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
I looked at it again this morning. Go to Ebay Motors-Aircraft and is down
about mid page just listed in the last two days.
Dee
Do not archive
>From: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
>Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:22:28 -0500
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>
>Hi Dee,
>
>did a search foiund nothing
>
>your link
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1
>
>came back as this
>
>This listing () has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered the
>item number correctly.
>Please consider this listing and transaction as cancelled. If anybody
>contacts you to complete the sale, please ignore the request. Completing
>the
>sale outside of eBay may be unsafe and will not be covered by eBay purchase
>protection programs.
>
>
>Shorty
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
> >
> >
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:25 AM
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
> >
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young"
><henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
> >
> > A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With
>some recent discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to
>some.
> >
> >
> > Dee Young
> > Model II
> > N345DY
> >
> >
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Series 5 weights |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Cooper" <spdrflyr@earthlink.net>
My Avid Mark IV with nice panel, interior, 14" wider main gear set 8" tires
etc. is 599lbs with Jabiru 85HP. 1250 Gross Weight.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harris, Robert
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 5 weights
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
My model 5 with 0200 is 882#s, warp prop, 8 inch tires, maule 8nmb tail
wheel, mode c, basic VFR, aftermarket light weight starter and mags.
Comparable Model 5 with Rotax 912(slipper clutch) would be 800#'s.
Soob would be a good way to go and has many advantages.
Robert
Hi Ben,
The KF Pilot's Guide has some "nice" model 5 numbers
Engine Empty weight
912s = 750 lbs
O-200 = 850 lbs
O-235 = 900 lbs (I use this data for the Soobs)
O-240 = 900 lbs
It should be noted that the SS S-5 demo plane was
about 1000 lbs with the O-240, so they didn't hit the
goal weight either. My Soob S-5 is about 950 lbs with
the heavy gear, CAP prop, heavy seat cushions, full
panel, etc. 200 lbs heavier than the 912s "nice"
weight, but I don't know any real weights for the
Rotax S-5's to compare to.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 weights |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Ok, here's mine. S5 with NSI engine and electric prop (NSI CAP) at
certification weighed 870, but since then has gained a few lbs with
transponder and wheel pants, neither of which made any significant change to
w/b. I also have the following additional "weighty" things that were
included at certification time:
LP acrylic bubble doors
LP acrylic windshield
CD Player
Powersonic 28 amp battery in the tail for ballast
Maule "Tundra" tailwheel, also for ballast.
Spring gear
Large cockpit controllable air scoop for the radiator
The rest of the airplane is pretty much stock except for lots of fairings
including the gas caps. I think I could have saved considerable weight by
leaving some of the above stuff off of the airplane, but that's the way I
wanted it. Actually, the CD player could go because I don't often use it.
I'd have been better of by just wiring it for a Walkman.
Deke Morisse
287 hours and down for annual
>
> My model 5 with 0200 is 882#s, warp prop, 8 inch tires, maule 8nmb tail
> wheel, mode c, basic VFR, aftermarket light weight starter and mags.
>
> Comparable Model 5 with Rotax 912(slipper clutch) would be 800#'s.
>
> Soob would be a good way to go and has many advantages.
>
> Robert
>
>
> Hi Ben,
>
> The KF Pilot's Guide has some "nice" model 5 numbers
> Engine Empty weight
> 912s = 750 lbs
> O-200 = 850 lbs
> O-235 = 900 lbs (I use this data for the Soobs)
> O-240 = 900 lbs
>
> It should be noted that the SS S-5 demo plane was
> about 1000 lbs with the O-240, so they didn't hit the
> goal weight either. My Soob S-5 is about 950 lbs with
> the heavy gear, CAP prop, heavy seat cushions, full
> panel, etc. 200 lbs heavier than the 912s "nice"
> weight, but I don't know any real weights for the
> Rotax S-5's to compare to.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Saludos desde Puerto Rico |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" <jose_m_toro@yahoo.com>
Muchas felicidades Michel!
Cuando vienes a Puerto Rico en tu Kitfox?
Michel Gordillo <michelgordillo@telefonica.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel Gordillo"
Te deseo un feliz a=F1o 2005.
I wish you a very happy new coming year.
Michel Gordillo
Jose M. Toro, P.E.
Kitfox II/582
"A slow flight in the Caribbean..."
---------------------------------
Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Don,
Now you are being mean. Ha ha. :-)
Actually a properly positioned exhaust should add
about 10% to your power. If you have 80 hp, about 8
hp is wasted, if the exhaust is not used to help.
That is 80 hp at the prop and 8 more hp of exhaust
thrust/lift.
I think an 8 hp reduction in climb and cruise would be
much more significant. Like strut fairings, the
benefit is more than it would appear.
Kurt S.
> Kurt,
> I just did some serious calculations and figured
> that a perfectly deflected exhaust pipe will add
> .000267 MPH on speed and .0005835 inches per minute
> on climb rate. I'm heading to the airport now to
> cut mine since I haven't cut it yet.
>
> Do Not Archive
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choices/ Read the story |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I bet for most applications the 3300 is a great
contender, but for the IV, it could be the best
choice, IMHO. It is light enough in weight and
probably best performance for the $ of all. The IV's
fuselage is narrower than the later series, so the
smaller prop on the 3300 isn't so bad. But you have
to want 120 hp instead of 80... :-)
Has anyone tried a 3300 on the model IV?
Kurt S.
--- Lonnie_D._Tillinghast@oxy.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
> <Lonnie_D._Tillinghast@oxy.com>
>
> Clint, was it a Jabiru 2200 (4-cylinder) or 3300
> (6-cylinder)? I
> recently bought a 5 with a 3300 in it after looking
> for more than a year
> at all the engine combinations that are available.
> I can not believe
> the performance and how quiet and smooth the Jabiru
> is...I especially
> like the simplicity of it.
>
> The Fox weighs 812lbs with Grove landing gear, Maule
> tail wheel, wheel
> pants, GPS, CD player, etc. It makes no difference
> if you have one or
> two people in it...quarter full of gas or topped
> off, she JUMPS off the
> ground!
>
> Thanks,
> Lonnie
Message 20
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| Subject: | Primer Info for a 912ULS |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: David Estapa <davestapa@juno.com>
Gang, I have a 912 ULS on a 5 and ordered the primer kit. My Bing Carbs
have no fitting for the primer. There is a banjo bolt just above the bowl
on the aft side of the carb. This bolt is inboard(the intake and carbs
were swapped sides as part of the instructions). Is this where the
fitting goes? Is this fitting a standard fitting I can get from ACS? Any
help would be appreciated.
C. David Estapa
S5 TD N97DE (3 more months)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Leading Edge ? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Andy,
I didn't try it without the leading edge material, but
the stuff is pretty easy to install. I made a
template to align it on the leading edge. Just
position it at each rib with the template and scan
down the length to make sure it is straight. Then
tape the top edge in place the whole length.
To attach it, you just rotate the edge up at the top
tape line and apply the epoxy. Press it back down and
tape it down tight around the spar.
Later I spend some time with Superfill blending in all
the rivets at the lift strut attachments, etc and
along the leading edge material to give the best
transition. That was all there is to it. The fabric
holds it on too.
Kurt S. S-5
--- Andy <fultz@trip.net> wrote:
> Have any of you KF guys NOT used the wing leading
> edge material that was supplied with your kit?
> If not, how does yours compare in performance to
> those that did? How much trouble is it to install?
> I'm thinking of trying it on my AVID Speedwing.
> Thanks for you help.
>
> Andy F
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 weights |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
What can we say "Deke"?
You must have cheated. :-) H2 instead of air in the
tires? Ha ha
Actually that was my goal weight, but I missed. I
have the transponder, but no bubble doors. I have a
35 amp battery and a 6# B/U battery system too. Then
I have the temperfoam seats that are very heavy, but I
wanted the impact safety they give. And I have an IFR
panel, minus the T&B, so it is heavy. Otherwise I
have about the same as you.
It was the "just in case" items that added most of my
extra weight.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo at 931# certified.
--- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
> Ok, here's mine. S5 with NSI engine and electric
> prop (NSI CAP) at certification weighed 870,
> but since then has gained a few lbs with
> transponder and wheel pants, neither of which made
> any significant change to w/b. I also have the
> following additional "weighty" things that were
> included at certification time:
> LP acrylic bubble doors
> LP acrylic windshield
> CD Player
> Powersonic 28 amp battery in the tail for
> ballast
> Maule "Tundra" tailwheel, also for ballast.
> Spring gear
> Large cockpit controllable air scoop for the
> radiator The rest of the airplane is pretty
> much stock except for lots of fairings
> including the gas caps. I think I could have saved
> considerable weight by leaving some of the above
> stuff off of the airplane, but that's the way I
> wanted it. Actually, the CD player could go because
> I don't often use it. I'd have been better of by
> just wiring it for a Walkman.
> Deke Morisse
Message 23
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| Subject: | model IV wing tanks |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
At 12:18 PM 1/2/05 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
>I don't really understand the vent system of the fox too much, but I'm sure
>I will pretty soon. But... I just looked at my wing tanks and there is
>already a spot twards the back inside of each tank on the top. Is this a
>vent? I noticed on the schematic for the one tank this fitting goes to the
>top of the header tank. I assume the other tank is sealed off at this
>location. Someone please explain this to me. And, can you instead, use
>this spot for the vent system that has been mentioned?
>
>steve a
======
All the factory ports are on the low side of the tank meaning inboard.
The Filer cap is outboard and is the high point of the tank.
More questions are answered with peasure.
Paul
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
Hi Don,
The angle cut could be for appearance, but there is some function. The
flow can be deflected to keep away from the fuge or directed in the axial
direction for the an unmeasurable thrust gain. Its not worth figuring the
defection based on the angle, but just make it look to your preference. The
exhaust gas pushes on the tube was so if there is nothing to push on the
flow is outward away from the opposite wall.
Its also good to avoid a sharp edge at the end of the pipe.
The so called slash tip is common on autos Especialy diesels to get the
gas away from the fender paint thus avoiding exhaust stain.
Paul
============
At 11:39 AM 1/2/05 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
>I seem to remember once about cutting the tail end of the exhaust pipe at a
>45 degree angle on the backside of the airflow. This was either to reduce
>drag
>or help promote good exhaust flow as it exits (or both). Does anyone have
>any thoughts on this? I had to weld a short extension on my exhaust pipe and
>right now it is cut square.
>
>Don Smythe
>N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 25
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| Subject: | model IV wing tanks |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
At 08:44 AM 1/1/05 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
>Don,
>How did you plum the vent to the bottom side of the wing? Particularly
>interested in placement to the tank and then the vent itself.
>
>steve a
==========
Steve here a a method to consider,
The outboard edge of the tank is higher due to dihedral. So a tube from
near the filler* (inside the tank) out the end of the tank then down works
very good vent. Just use some fuel resistent epoxy for the seal. I used
1/4"x.035 aluminum tube but the size is not important. Use soft aluminum so
it will bend easy. et the tube protrude below the wing to give slight
pressureization of the tanks. Better yet give the tube a 45-60 deg slash
facing forward to get slight ram air influence. Dont let it stick down too
far so it wont stab your head someday.
* near the filler so you can hold it in place while the epoxy cures. I
used a stiff wire to hod the vent tube up high.
Paul
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Leading Edge ? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
I would only add to Kurt's description by suggesting the use of a chalk line in
connection with the template to provide a uniform mounting position.
John Kerr
Logan UT. Snowing, Haven't flown since before Christmas.
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
>
> Andy,
>
> I didn't try it without the leading edge material, but
> the stuff is pretty easy to install. I made a
> template to align it on the leading edge. Just
> position it at each rib with the template and scan
> down the length to make sure it is straight. Then
> tape the top edge in place the whole length.
>
> To attach it, you just rotate the edge up at the top
> tape line and apply the epoxy. Press it back down and
> tape it down tight around the spar.
>
> Later I spend some time with Superfill blending in all
> the rivets at the lift strut attachments, etc and
> along the leading edge material to give the best
> transition. That was all there is to it. The fabric
> holds it on too.
>
> Kurt S. S-5
>
> --- Andy wrote:
>
> > Have any of you KF guys NOT used the wing leading
> > edge material that was supplied with your kit?
> > If not, how does yours compare in performance to
> > those that did? How much trouble is it to install?
> > I'm thinking of trying it on my AVID Speedwing.
> > Thanks for you help.
> >
> > Andy F
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
>
>
>
>
I would only add to Kurt's description by suggesting the use of a chalk line in
connection with the template to provide a uniform mounting position.
John Kerr
Logan UT. Snowing, Haven't flown since before Christmas.
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <SMOKEY_BEAR_40220@YAHOO.COM>
Andy,
I didn't try it without the leading edge material, but
the stuff is pretty easy to install. I made a
template to align it on the leading edge. Just
position it at each rib with the template and scan
down the length to make sure it is straight. Then
tape the top edge in place the whole length.
To attach it, you just rotate the edge up at the top
tape line and apply the epoxy. Press it back down and
tape it down tight around the spar.
Later I spend some time with Superfill blending in all
the rivets at the lift strut attachments, etc and
along the leading edge material to give the best
tr
ansition. That was all there is to it. The fabric
holds it on too.
Kurt S. S-5
--- Andy <FULTZ@TRIP.NET>wrote:
Have any of you KF guys NOT used the wing leading
edge material that was supplied with your kit?
If not, how does yours compare in performance to
those that did? How much trouble is it to install?
I'm thinking of trying it on my AVID Speedwing.
Thanks for you help.
Andy F
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
ing on the Matronics Forums.
_- ====================================================================
Message 27
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| Subject: | New Bose X Headsets |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jeff Smathers <jsmathers@cybcon.com>
Hi all,
I still have the Bose X headset that my wife won from last years
EAA contest. I am reducing the price to $850. which is $150
off the list price.
They are new, checked out once against my Lightspeed 25...
and still in the box
.....Yes, they are better.... but she is the one selling them.
Thanks, Jeff Smathers
email me @ jsmathers@cybcon.com
or call 503 829-2594
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choices/ Read the story |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Kurt,
There is one being built here in Colorado. It should fly this spring. I look
forward to seeing how it performs. It has the potential to be the worlds
fastest kitfox.
Cliff
>
> I bet for most applications the 3300 is a great
> contender, but for the IV, it could be the best
> choice, IMHO. It is light enough in weight and
> probably best performance for the $ of all. The IV's
> fuselage is narrower than the later series, so the
> smaller prop on the 3300 isn't so bad. But you have
> to want 120 hp instead of 80... :-)
>
> Has anyone tried a 3300 on the model IV?
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 1/3/05 12:52:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
<< Actually a properly positioned exhaust should add
about 10% to your power. If you have 80 hp, about 8
hp is wasted, if the exhaust is not used to help.
That is 80 hp at the prop and 8 more hp of exhaust
thrust/lift.
>>
Kurt,
Didn't mean to be mean (just being a wise guy). 10% boost in HP is a
very large amount (at least to me). I can't help but question that amount of
thrust/lift by the position of an exhaust pipe. This one will have to be proved
to me. Sorry..
I did walk around the airport a bit today and looked at all the exhaust
pipes. All that were sticking downward were cut at a 45 degree angle.....
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
unreal
boost your power with a slant tip ????
Sorry i not sure why anyoen would waste space talking about such non-sense.
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: <AlbertaIV@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cutting exhaust pipe
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 1/3/05 12:52:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << Actually a properly positioned exhaust should add
> about 10% to your power. If you have 80 hp, about 8
> hp is wasted, if the exhaust is not used to help.
> That is 80 hp at the prop and 8 more hp of exhaust
> thrust/lift.
> >>
>
> Kurt,
> Didn't mean to be mean (just being a wise guy). 10% boost in HP is a
> very large amount (at least to me). I can't help but question that amount
of
> thrust/lift by the position of an exhaust pipe. This one will have to be
proved
> to me. Sorry..
> I did walk around the airport a bit today and looked at all the
exhaust
> pipes. All that were sticking downward were cut at a 45 degree angle.....
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
I just did some serious calculations and figured that a perfectly
deflected exhaust pipe will add .000267 MPH on speed and .0005835 inches per
minute
on climb rate. I'm heading to the airport now to cut mine since I haven't
cut
it yet.
. Just thought I'd put in my bit re this exhaust cut-off as I might well be
the 2 stroke fanatic on list. My opinion is that the comments stem from
exhaust tuning and in actual fact in this situation are negligable.
A 2 stroke exhaust is what we call a tuned system. It is tuned at maximum
output. What happens is that the incoming fresh charge into the cylinder
through the transfer ports faces a lower pressure in the cylinder and so
supplies more charge [ fresh mixture ] This is because of the momentum of
the out going exhaust gas in the pipe [ exhaust system ] It tends to keep
going dragging more fresh mixture ito the cylinder behind it. Now this is
where we get to the tuned bit. The pipe [ exhaust system ] is designed to
reflect back down the pipe towards the cylinder a reversion pulse after the
out going pulse has ceased. The tuning bit is that this reversion pulse is
timed to push back into the cylinder the fresh charge, over and above what
stayed in the cylinder, also into the cylinder just before the uprising
piston closes the exhaust port. This is like a supercharged effect. Now this
effect can be tuned to be very sharp say from 6,300 RPM to 6,500 and will
give a considerable boost or it can be broadly tuned to occur say 5,900 to
6,400 in which case the boost effect is less but over a broader power band
and may be more usefull than the higher power over a very narrow power band.
ie:- 200 revs verus 500 in my example.
Now cutting the pipe which would normaly be called the stinger at 45
degrees will broaden the power band but decrease the strength of the
reversion pulse. However I suspect that the standard 582 Kitfox exhaust
although tuned is only mildly tuned and so the effect is minimal. There is
however a business that their name currently slips my mind but they do offer
better tuned systems for the 582 etc. Bear in mind though they will peak the
output curve and likely use more fuel.
The other thing is cutting that pipe at 45 degrees will considerably
reduce the noise level. So I think it is a toss up between these things as
to which prompted the original idea to cut it at 45 degrees, but I'm with
your mathematics and can't see the increased thrust pushing you past Vne.
This is why you will see warnings not to modify the exhaust and if you do
then assuming we are talking the main pipe part it must remain the same
centre length and diameter.
Sorry if my explanation is a bit fuzzy but there is a lot in all this and
I've tried to just tell you enough so as not to take up too much space and
be too confusing.
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 32
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
Skis have SOLD! Serch for item Number 4516458204
----- Original Message -----
From: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> did a search foiund nothing
>
> your link
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1
>
> came back as this
>
> This listing () has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered
> the
> item number correctly.
> Please consider this listing and transaction as cancelled. If anybody
> contacts you to complete the sale, please ignore the request. Completing
> the
> sale outside of eBay may be unsafe and will not be covered by eBay
> purchase
> protection programs.
>
>
> Shorty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
>>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:25 AM
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
>>
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young"
> <henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
>>
>> A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section. With
> some recent discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest to
> some.
>>
>>
>> Dee Young
>> Model II
>> N345DY
>>
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
jim thx
here is proper link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4516458204
and sold
was only listed under 24 hours too
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Burke" <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke <jeburke94je@direcway.com>
>
> Skis have SOLD! Serch for item Number 4516458204
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
> >
> > Hi Dee,
> >
> > did a search foiund nothing
> >
> > your link
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1
> >
> > came back as this
> >
> > This listing () has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered
> > the
> > item number correctly.
> > Please consider this listing and transaction as cancelled. If anybody
> > contacts you to complete the sale, please ignore the request. Completing
> > the
> > sale outside of eBay may be unsafe and will not be covered by eBay
> > purchase
> > protection programs.
> >
> >
> > Shorty
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
> > To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis
> >
> >
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>
> >>
> >>
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1<http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category63722&item4516458204&rd1>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Dee Young<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:25 AM
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: skis
> >>
> >>
> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dee Young"
> > <henrysfork1@msn.com<mailto:henrysfork1@msn.com>>
> >>
> >> A set of skis has been listed on Ebay under the Aircraft section.
With
> > some recent discussion on the list around skis this may be of interest
to
> > some.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dee Young
> >> Model II
> >> N345DY
> >>
> >>
> >> Do Not Archive
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "shortnaked" <shortnaked@golden.net>
Rex,
Rotax exhaust works well on the 582 as is .
Cutting th tailpipe part at 90deg or 45d is not gonna do any thing for any
power band uless you have the slant cut toward the front and get ram air
into the exhaust. and that will prolly be a restriction and impair power
i have seen guys cut up y pipes, and re weld togehter to make em fit and
lose power many a times. The Back pressure is very critical in the 2
stroks and you can gain power with special tuned pipes but only usualy with
re jetting and usualy at a higher RPM.
rotax exhuat maybe not 100% but it is well in the 90% range for efficiency.
Lets talk numbers
my KF IV 582 climbs 1300 fpm + solo
what am gonna gain ? huh
Shorty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" <rexjan@bigpond.com>
>
>
> I just did some serious calculations and figured that a perfectly
> deflected exhaust pipe will add .000267 MPH on speed and .0005835 inches
per
> minute
> on climb rate. I'm heading to the airport now to cut mine since I haven't
> cut
> it yet.
>
> . Just thought I'd put in my bit re this exhaust cut-off as I might well
be
> the 2 stroke fanatic on list. My opinion is that the comments stem from
> exhaust tuning and in actual fact in this situation are negligable.
> A 2 stroke exhaust is what we call a tuned system. It is tuned at maximum
> output. What happens is that the incoming fresh charge into the cylinder
> through the transfer ports faces a lower pressure in the cylinder and so
> supplies more charge [ fresh mixture ] This is because of the momentum of
> the out going exhaust gas in the pipe [ exhaust system ] It tends to keep
> going dragging more fresh mixture ito the cylinder behind it. Now this is
> where we get to the tuned bit. The pipe [ exhaust system ] is designed to
> reflect back down the pipe towards the cylinder a reversion pulse after
the
> out going pulse has ceased. The tuning bit is that this reversion pulse is
> timed to push back into the cylinder the fresh charge, over and above what
> stayed in the cylinder, also into the cylinder just before the uprising
> piston closes the exhaust port. This is like a supercharged effect. Now
this
> effect can be tuned to be very sharp say from 6,300 RPM to 6,500 and will
> give a considerable boost or it can be broadly tuned to occur say 5,900 to
> 6,400 in which case the boost effect is less but over a broader power band
> and may be more usefull than the higher power over a very narrow power
band.
> ie:- 200 revs verus 500 in my example.
> Now cutting the pipe which would normaly be called the stinger at 45
> degrees will broaden the power band but decrease the strength of the
> reversion pulse. However I suspect that the standard 582 Kitfox exhaust
> although tuned is only mildly tuned and so the effect is minimal. There is
> however a business that their name currently slips my mind but they do
offer
> better tuned systems for the 582 etc. Bear in mind though they will peak
the
> output curve and likely use more fuel.
> The other thing is cutting that pipe at 45 degrees will considerably
> reduce the noise level. So I think it is a toss up between these things as
> to which prompted the original idea to cut it at 45 degrees, but I'm with
> your mathematics and can't see the increased thrust pushing you past Vne.
> This is why you will see warnings not to modify the exhaust and if you do
> then assuming we are talking the main pipe part it must remain the same
> centre length and diameter.
> Sorry if my explanation is a bit fuzzy but there is a lot in all this and
> I've tried to just tell you enough so as not to take up too much space and
> be too confusing.
>
>
> rexjan@bigpond.com
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 1/3/05 4:20:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
shortnaked@golden.net writes:
<< boost your power with a slant tip ????
Sorry i not sure why anyoen would waste space talking about such non-sense.
Shorty
>>
Shorty,
There is no such thing as nonsense on this list. Every and all
comments/opinions are valued. On every discussion, there is something to learn.
You
just have to be able and willing to listen.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 1/3/05 4:22:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rexjan@bigpond.com writes:
<< The other thing is cutting that pipe at 45 degrees will considerably
reduce the noise level. So I think it is a toss up between these things as
to which prompted the original idea to cut it at 45 degrees, but I'm with
your mathematics and can't see the increased thrust pushing you past Vne. >>
Thanks Rex and I don't even find this nonsense but, informative.
Don Smythe
N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 weights |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Actually, after the transponder and wheel pants it's a few lb more now.
When I was building I tried to always be weight concious, especially with
the little things. Sometimes I could have used brass fittings, but would
spend the extra time and money to use aluminum fittings from Earl's, not
because of the 37 degree flare, but the fact that they were much lighter. I
even lost a few of my own pounds to help out a little. It all adds up in
the end.
As for the "Deke" thing, I've already been asked "whatsup with that?" Ok,
back about 1967 that nickname was tacked on me and has followed me around
the world, but has usually been used mostly by close friends. People I
didn't know well were always given the name Darrel which is the one I was
born with. Then I got to thinking that the people on this list are all my
close friends so I might as well just use it here. So Deke it is.
Deke
> What can we say "Deke"?
>
> You must have cheated. :-) H2 instead of air in the
> tires? Ha ha
>
> Actually that was my goal weight, but I missed. I
> have the transponder, but no bubble doors. I have a
> 35 amp battery and a 6# B/U battery system too. Then
> I have the temperfoam seats that are very heavy, but I
> wanted the impact safety they give. And I have an IFR
> panel, minus the T&B, so it is heavy. Otherwise I
> have about the same as you.
>
> It was the "just in case" items that added most of my
> extra weight.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo at 931# certified.
>
> --- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
>
> > Ok, here's mine. S5 with NSI engine and electric
> > prop (NSI CAP) at certification weighed 870,
> > but since then has gained a few lbs with
> > transponder and wheel pants, neither of which made
> > any significant change to w/b. I also have the
> > following additional "weighty" things that were
> > included at certification time:
> > LP acrylic bubble doors
> > LP acrylic windshield
> > CD Player
> > Powersonic 28 amp battery in the tail for
> > ballast
> > Maule "Tundra" tailwheel, also for ballast.
> > Spring gear
> > Large cockpit controllable air scoop for the
> > radiator The rest of the airplane is pretty
> > much stock except for lots of fairings
> > including the gas caps. I think I could have saved
> > considerable weight by leaving some of the above
> > stuff off of the airplane, but that's the way I
> > wanted it. Actually, the CD player could go because
> > I don't often use it. I'd have been better of by
> > just wiring it for a Walkman.
> > Deke Morisse
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Registering and paperwork |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Brad,
I don't remember which ones those forms are. I think I sent in several when
I reserved my number. If you want your choice of numbers, you have to send
in $10 more.
Go to:
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$pass*69416808!_h-www.landings.com/_landin
gs/pages/search.html
...to check for what numbers are available.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Flybradair@cs.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Registering and paperwork
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Flybradair@cs.com
Need to get the paperwork started.
I have picked up the amateur-built packet from the local FSDO and want to
make sure I don't screw it up to bad.
I have no N-number reserved so I am starting from the beginning.
Would I first need to submit a letter for the special N number then wait
for
the FAA to send a number back to me before sending in 8050-88,8050-2, and
8050-1 for the registration process?
Or......
Could I send in request for N number along with forms 8050-88,8050-1, and
8050-2 with N number left blank?
Or.....
Any suggestions?
Brad Martin
Wichita
5-lyc o-235
Wiring almost done.
Message 39
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| Subject: | cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
I know some of you folks share the tri gear configuration fox with the
radiator aft of the exhaust. I for one was tired of all the heat and exhaust
depositing on the radiator. I am presentably putting together an exhaust
system (I know more weight)shes a pig anyway, that runs the exhaust back
pass the radiator. I didn't do the slant cut but did weld a small cone , a
two to three inch transition on the end. Hopefully when done this will keep
the residue and heat off the radiator, reduce the noise level, and add an
extra XYX factor to cruise. Will post some pics when she is done. I think by
the time I get done improving everything I want to I will be over gross just
sitting waiting for fuel :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cutting exhaust pipe
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Don,
Now you are being mean. Ha ha. :-)
Actually a properly positioned exhaust should add
about 10% to your power. If you have 80 hp, about 8
hp is wasted, if the exhaust is not used to help.
That is 80 hp at the prop and 8 more hp of exhaust
thrust/lift.
I think an 8 hp reduction in climb and cruise would be
much more significant. Like strut fairings, the
benefit is more than it would appear.
Kurt S.
> Kurt,
> I just did some serious calculations and figured
> that a perfectly deflected exhaust pipe will add
> .000267 MPH on speed and .0005835 inches per minute
> on climb rate. I'm heading to the airport now to
> cut mine since I haven't cut it yet.
>
> Do Not Archive
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
__________________________________
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: re cutting exhaust at 45 degrees |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I think we wandered off into apples vs oranges vs
(sour) grapes here. And no, I am not mad. Just
having fun with this seldom addressed topic. Really!
:-)
First, cutting the tip probably won't do much except
lower the volume a little and scatter the plume a bit
too. I forgot what I did, so looking at my picture, I
just have a 90 degree cut. But I did squash the
exposed pipe a bit to make it more aerodynamic.
Second, the tuned part comes before the tip and you
shouldn't change that unless you want to race your
plane. Like Rex says, you could get a lot of power in
a narrow band with tight tuning, but this would not be
good out of the racing world, where we use a broader
rpm band to fly.
What I was talking about was the direction the exhaust
pipe itself faces as it releases its gas. As most of
you know, a really good gas engine extracts at most
25% of the fuel's energy to do useful work as torque.
The rest of the power goes out the engine as heat and
exhaust. The heat comes off the engine itself, out of
the oil cooler and out of the radiator. The exhaust
can contain up to 40% of the power from the fuel, but
we don't use it very well, if at all. Most people
consider it a problem only.
As the exhaust leaves the cylinder head, it is
traveling above the speed of sound, besides being at
your measured egt. That is why it is so loud and
needs muffling and cooling. This especially applies
to you high compression guys.
There is a lot of power there. You might hold your
hand out the door of your Fox while flying at 80 mph,
but you wouldn't want to put your hand over the
exhaust at cruise power during a ground run. It is
infact, a hot jet that can yield 10% of your fuels
power as thrust. More force than your 80 mph wind in
flight. And that is still waisting 75% of what goes
out the exhaust as heat.
So if you direct that exhaust jet in the right
direction, you can produce a little more thrust from
it - say up to 10% of your hp.
Somewhere I have an old article about a man who
directed his small engine exhaust into a nozel and
sprayed water into it. The resulting steam absorbed
some of that heat energy and made a jet with the
exhaust gas. It was powerful enough to run his
go-cart to 80 mph without the engine attached to
anything but the exhaust. It was strictly a piston
jet engine with no gearbox or chain drive. In fact,
it was an opposed "free piston" motor. There was no
crankshaft!
But that engine is another mater. The fact is, your
exhaust contains a great deal of power, more than goes
to the prop, and you could use a little of it as
thrust, if you wanted to. With his design, his
go-cart ran faster from the exhaust than it did by
powering the wheels. In the article, his limiting
factor and biggest worry became max tire rotation
speed, not engine thrust.
Exhaust systems are mostly designed poorly at best.
Even on the efficient Mooneys, the exhaust hardly
silences the noise and just wastes HP. Any fluid
mechanics engineer who wanted an open field of study
could make great progress and $ here, IMHO.
Kurt S.
--- Rex & Jan Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
> I just did some serious calculations and figured
> that a perfectly
> deflected exhaust pipe will add .000267 MPH on speed
> and .0005835 inches per
> minute
> on climb rate. I'm heading to the airport now to
> cut mine since I haven't
> cut
> it yet.
>
> . Just thought I'd put in my bit re this exhaust
> cut-off as I might well be
> the 2 stroke fanatic on list. My opinion is that the
> comments stem from
> exhaust tuning and in actual fact in this situation
> are negligable.
> A 2 stroke exhaust is what we call a tuned system.
>
> rexjan@bigpond.com
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: cutting exhaust pipe |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Don, I was just pulling your leg. Really. It takes a
lot more to get me, a Marine, mad that that, or most
anything else that ever happens on this list for that
matter.
As I said in another answer, this subject is very
poorly addressed in the engineering world. It is no
wonder why you and everyone else wouldn't know how
much untapped power there is available at the exhaust.
There truely is more power, nearly twice as much
more, than at the prop. Getting 10% is actually about
"normal" in a non-turboed engine. It would mean
getting 27.5% of your fuel's energy instead of just
25% from a good piston engine. Very do-able.
The exhausts you looked at at the airport must point
90 degrees to the line of flight, then be cut at 45
degrees, right?, If it were pointed aft, why cut it?
Kurt S.
--- AlbertaIV@aol.com wrote:
> Kurt,
> Didn't mean to be mean (just being a wise guy).
> 10% boost in HP is a very large amount (at least
> to me). I can't help but question that amount of
> thrust/lift by the position of an exhaust pipe.
> This one will have to be proved to me. Sorry..
> I did walk around the airport a bit today and
> looked at all the exhaust pipes. All that were
> sticking downward were cut at a 45 degree angle.....
>
> Don Smythe
> N-998DS Classic IV W/ 582
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