---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/26/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: The engine chang is a big success!!! (Michel Verheughe) 2. 06:13 AM - Re: NSI CAP (John Larsen) 3. 07:34 AM - Re: NSI CAP (Jimmie Blackwell) 4. 11:08 AM - Re: Exterior LED lights. (Torgeir Mortensen) 5. 11:22 AM - Re: SV: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm (Torgeir Mortensen) 6. 01:32 PM - Re: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm (Michel Verheughe) 7. 04:26 PM - Re: header tank wanted (Fox5flyer) 8. 05:06 PM - Re: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm (Guy Buchanan) 9. 09:03 PM - Re: NSI CAP (Giovanni Day) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:40 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: The engine chang is a big success!!! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe dwight purdy wrote: > I swear by gap sealing the elevator, and using the flaperon trim. I have also gap-sealed both the elevator and rudder on my model 3 and, like Luke Skywalker, I can now feel its power, dear Yoda! :-) David Savener wrote: > Here's the catch. At cruise airspeed I now have to hold left-forward stick. I had the same thing with my 582, David. As Dwight says, you trim the "forward stick" with the flaperon trim. For the "left stick," I used a small piece of aluminium that I fixed on the left flaperon, pointing down at a few degrees. That kept me flying on an even keel. When I installed my new Jabiru, I removed this flaperon trim. But after the first test flight, I realised I still needed it. Since the Jabiru spins clockwise - as opposed to the 582 - it is then evident that my "left stick" tendency is not related to the prop, its torque, P-factor or propwash. It probably means that my wings are not symetrical, or something like that. BTW, my old 582 that I sold to our club's Rans super 6 training plane, is still flying with 350 hours on it. A good engine. But I wanted a four-stroke. The Jabiru is also a good engine. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:06 AM PST US From: John Larsen Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen I'm sorry if my comments implied that Peter was in some sort of a conspiracy. It is just that I have been monitoring NSI list info for over 8 years, and used to lurk on the private NSI list before you owners went back to being part of this list. I am in no business except as working as an engineer for Cival Dynamics in Nampa ID., writing articles for aircraft and historical publications and making guitars. I designed the Airdale prototype aircraft but sold 100% of the rights to manufacture in 1997. Dave Martin at Kitplanes would not let me test fly planes like the Kitfox for the magazine if I were a competitor. I have not commented on this as before, as I have been writing the Engine Beat column for the magazine and felt my opinions would seem to be slanted to the NSI owners and I have always tried to be objective. Now that I have retired from the job of writing the Engine Beat column for Kitplanes and am about ready to retire from this list, I felt I could not depart without remarking on what I learned by conversing with and corresponding with over 150 NSI owners since I first researched the company for Engine Beat. Am I making up the lawsuits and BBB complaints? Give them a call yourself. You need to talk to the clerk of the court of Snohomish County WA Fox5flyer wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > >Here we go again! >First I'm speaking as List Manager. Attacking Peter and implying some sort >of conspiracy is insulting to his integrity and credibility and has no place >on this list. Zero. It's clearly spelled out in the rules and if you have >a problem with Peter, take it to him privately. To the rest of the List, >c'mon folks, let's not get going down that road again. It just gets people >upset, has no productive value, and wastes a ton of time. > >Now, I'm speaking as a List member. John, as a business man you surprise >me! I always thought that it was a no-no for a business to slam the >competition. I'm a long time and very satisfied NSI owner and like Peter >I've never had a problem with them. Outstanding product and great >service--always. You haven't missed many opportunities to "put the boot >in" with NSI and I suspect it's personal. When disgruntled Skystar >customers complain on this List, the defenders of Skystar jump in to reap >praise and try to stop the piling on. Nothing wrong with that. If we all >took as gospel what we "hear" on the internet we'd never be able to make a >decision on any product. >Deke > > > >>Peter when are you going to get off of it? The last time I checked, >>there were 17 unsatisfied lawsuits filed against Lance Wheeler, Lance & >>Patricia, NSI, and various other business names Lance has used over the >>years. I hear the number is now over 30. Last time I checked the local >>Better Business Bureau gave Lance and NSI their worst possible rating >>because they would not satisfy customer complaints. Usually took the >>money and did not deliver the goods. It appears he has taken care of a >>few high profile and list prominent people like you as you keep heaping >>on the praise. Others do not fare very well. >>JML >> >>Peter Graichen wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Peter Graichen" >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Giovanni Day >>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP >>> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" >>> >>>I had a chance to buy one of these for $800.00 and decided against it. I >>>called NSI several times a day for a week and got not answer and not >>> >>> >reply > > >>>to messages left. I do not want an orphaned produce and it is not looking >>>like there will be any service from these guys. >>> >>>Giovanni Day >>> >>>Do Not Archive >>> >>>I don't understand why you could not get thru on the phone. I talk to >>> >>> >them > > >>>about once or twice a month and it never takes longer than about five >>>minutes to get Heather, Dawn, Craig or Lance. >>>Peter K. Graichen >>>http://home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:46 AM PST US From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" John I for one hope you do not leave this list. One of the reasons that I am on this list is to hear pros and cons about different vendors. Not long ago this list had lots of discussion about Skystar which brought out some good and bad experiences. I think the end result was getting Skystar to answer this list with some truthful answers which was very positive and probably helped some of those having trouble with Skystar. Perhaps NSI would like to put a response on this list as to why NSI is not supporting their customers that bought the cockpit gauge for their in-flight adjustable prop. Many of them do not function and NSI does not offer any help. Please do not leave the list. Jimmie ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Larsen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen > > I'm sorry if my comments implied that Peter was in some sort of a > conspiracy. It is just that I have been monitoring NSI list info for > over 8 years, and used to lurk on the private NSI list before you owners > went back to being part of this list. I am in no business except as > working as an engineer for Cival Dynamics in Nampa ID., writing articles > for aircraft and historical publications and making guitars. I designed > the Airdale prototype aircraft but sold 100% of the rights to > manufacture in 1997. Dave Martin at Kitplanes would not let me test fly > planes like the Kitfox for the magazine if I were a competitor. I have > not commented on this as before, as I have been writing the Engine Beat > column for the magazine and felt my opinions would seem to be slanted to > the NSI owners and I have always tried to be objective. Now that I have > retired from the job of writing the Engine Beat column for Kitplanes and > am about ready to retire from this list, I felt I could not depart > without remarking on what I learned by conversing with and corresponding > with over 150 NSI owners since I first researched the company for Engine > Beat. > Am I making up the lawsuits and BBB complaints? Give them a call > yourself. You need to talk to the clerk of the court of Snohomish County WA > > Fox5flyer wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > >Here we go again! > >First I'm speaking as List Manager. Attacking Peter and implying some sort > >of conspiracy is insulting to his integrity and credibility and has no place > >on this list. Zero. It's clearly spelled out in the rules and if you have > >a problem with Peter, take it to him privately. To the rest of the List, > >c'mon folks, let's not get going down that road again. It just gets people > >upset, has no productive value, and wastes a ton of time. > > > >Now, I'm speaking as a List member. John, as a business man you surprise > >me! I always thought that it was a no-no for a business to slam the > >competition. I'm a long time and very satisfied NSI owner and like Peter > >I've never had a problem with them. Outstanding product and great > >service--always. You haven't missed many opportunities to "put the boot > >in" with NSI and I suspect it's personal. When disgruntled Skystar > >customers complain on this List, the defenders of Skystar jump in to reap > >praise and try to stop the piling on. Nothing wrong with that. If we all > >took as gospel what we "hear" on the internet we'd never be able to make a > >decision on any product. > >Deke > > > > > > > >>Peter when are you going to get off of it? The last time I checked, > >>there were 17 unsatisfied lawsuits filed against Lance Wheeler, Lance & > >>Patricia, NSI, and various other business names Lance has used over the > >>years. I hear the number is now over 30. Last time I checked the local > >>Better Business Bureau gave Lance and NSI their worst possible rating > >>because they would not satisfy customer complaints. Usually took the > >>money and did not deliver the goods. It appears he has taken care of a > >>few high profile and list prominent people like you as you keep heaping > >>on the praise. Others do not fare very well. > >>JML > >> > >>Peter Graichen wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Peter Graichen" > >>> > >>> > >>>-----Original Message----- > >>>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > >>>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Giovanni Day > >>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > >>>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP > >>> > >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" > >>> > >>>I had a chance to buy one of these for $800.00 and decided against it. I > >>>called NSI several times a day for a week and got not answer and not > >>> > >>> > >reply > > > > > >>>to messages left. I do not want an orphaned produce and it is not looking > >>>like there will be any service from these guys. > >>> > >>>Giovanni Day > >>> > >>>Do Not Archive > >>> > >>>I don't understand why you could not get thru on the phone. I talk to > >>> > >>> > >them > > > > > >>>about once or twice a month and it never takes longer than about five > >>>minutes to get Heather, Dawn, Craig or Lance. > >>>Peter K. Graichen > >>>http://home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Exterior LED lights. From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen My pleasure Randy, the low "current" system in my plane ask for low power equipment (my motivation). Torgeir. Do not archive On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:10:26 -0700, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > Thanks much Torgeir. I have been waiting to put lights on my plane until > LEDs got good enough to do the job. I was worrying about cost and > overtaxing my 912S power supply. > > It looks like maybe the time has come to start planning for lights. > > Randy > > . > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Torgeir > Mortensen > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Exterior LED lights. > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen > > Hi Folks, > > Thought you'll like to know about latest high intensity LEDs now in the > marked. > > Here is a link to EAA ch. 724 meeting and events. Read the article about > Using Alternative Sources for Nav and Strobe Lights > > By Scott Gettings, EAA 724. This one is a good one for us "experimental" > builders / pilots. > > Here is the link: > > http://www.eaa724.org/MeetingsEvents.html > > > (may take some time load, but is worth all (if any) delay). > > Enjoy, > > > Torgeir. > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: SV: Kitfox-List: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen No Jose, I dont have a Jabiru engine, -but I wish I had.... I'll have to go with my old 532 (well it's a lot younger than me :) ), also have another 532 in spare -with just 22 hour total time, almost brand new. My 532 is equipped with double ignition, the original magnetic and the second -a "modern" CDI system. But still have to premix. The joy of flying is back after I got my Kitfox. :) Cheers Torgeir. On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:11:17 -0800 (PST), Jose M. Toro wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > Torgeir: > > Do you have a Jab 2200 on your KF 2? > > Jose > > Torgeir Mortensen wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen > > Hi Michel, > > Kind of strange this, but I'll think it's time to check your airspeed > indicator -there might be an error in here some place(?). > > Let me explain; Morten, your friend with a model 4 have made some very > nice protocol (tables) of his experience with different types of > propellers. > > (For those interested, here is a direct link to this table: > http://www.jabiru.no/PropTest.htm ) > > With reference to this table, the speed you experienced did not match > very > well with Mortens test. > The model 4 is quite "cleaner" than a model III (and model II as I have). > The drag created by our undercambered "high lift profile" (model I, II > and > III) is a lot higher than the newer profile wing has. > > > Try a two way path with your GPS, the two way is better (easier) to > handle, do this test in calm air to verify your AS indicator. I've yet to > see an airspeed indicator without error. When my original AS indicator > show redline, the actual speed is only 87 Mph. Quit a difference, isnt > it? Also, we do not often check our speed at the red line, do we ? Also > my indicator is fairly good at speeds below 80 Mph. > > > Then about the recommendation from Jabiru. As you cant get the > recommended > RPM, cause you overrun the red line, well to increase the RPM you'll need > finer pitch, right? > > We'll need to solve our RPM recommendation first-, so less pitch more > RPM. > > But first, make a good test to verify that your airspeed indicator is > right in the upper region, most important. > > Of course, -here's another propeller reading, this time from the EAA > site: > > http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/The%20Fixed%20Pitch%20Propellor%20Dillemma.html > > In this site (just roll a little down), You'll find a the practical thing > we would like to know when selecting a propeller. > > Also, have a look at the "propeller estimator", in figure 3, a graph. > with > the relation of "RPM - SPEED - PITCH", this assuming no slippage. Try > your > number into this table, -amazing isn't it? > > (Use your read line 100 Mph as anchor point, let a straight line be > anchored in this point. As you rotate the line, you'll find a rough > estimate for RPM / pitch relation.) > > OK, let's make a quick calculation of your prop.: 60 X 38 > > We are using the formula: S=2*pi*r*0.75 I'll explain a little. The > circumference (a point located 75 percent out from the blade root) is > represented by: r*2 is the propeller diameter, we multiply with 0.75 to > find the "normal pitch" point. > This circumference line represent the hypotenuse for the triangular > calculation, we name it "S". > The withstanding cathetus (our pitch in inches), for our angle (say) > alpha, is our pitch in degrees. > > We have, P=38" and our propeller diameter is 60". I.E. 2*r=60" > > Using the formula for S; S=60*pi*0.75=60*3.14*0.75=141.47 (inches, the > hypotenuse) > > Further, we find sin for "alpha"(our pitch angle): > Sin(alpha)=P/S=38/141.37=0.2688 > > The angle is then: lg sin "alpha"=0.2688 I.E. "alpha", our pitch angle is > 15.59 deg ~ 15.6 deg. > > This is the bare calculation without slip. > > Hope this clear up. > > > Cheers > > Torgeir. > > > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:00:14 +0100, Michel Verheughe > wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe >> >> Torgeir Mortensen wrote: >>> Here is a link to some stuff about propellers (EAA site): >> >> Thanks, Torgeir. A very interesting site. Yet, I am afraid I won't be >> able to >> convert directly pitch in inches to pitch in degrees. >> BTW, I checked what Jabiru Australia says and they recommend a 60 by 40 >> prop >> for the Kitfox 3. Strange that I go over the red line with a 60 by 38, >> then. I >> don't know. Maybe I have to fly a bit more to understand my new plane >> and >> engine configuration. >> >> Cheers, >> Michel >> >> do not archive >> >> > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:10 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Guy Buchanan wrote: > Once you've static tested and > flown twice at two different pitches you'll have the problem solved and > will be able to interpolate any RPM you want. Thanks Guy but ... my prop is fixed pitch. I just wanted to know the inch-pitch vs. degree-pitch for comparison purpose. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:02 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: header tank wanted --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Lynn, I've got one. Price is right. Free. Contact me offlist and I'll give you the lowdown. Deke > I'm looking for the later header tank for the IV....the one that mounts > right behind the seat. This one has the inlets and the vent ports in > the top of the tank, and the outlet part way up from the bottom. I'm > trying to move some weight forward, and this looks like one way to do > it. Does anybody have one? > > Lynn > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:08 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Pitch/prop-angle/rpm --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 10:24 PM 2/26/2005 +0100, Michel Verheughe wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > >Guy Buchanan wrote: > > Once you've static tested and > > flown twice at two different pitches you'll have the problem solved and > > will be able to interpolate any RPM you want. > >Thanks Guy but ... my prop is fixed pitch. I just wanted to know the >inch-pitch >vs. degree-pitch for comparison purpose OK. Did you get the equation converting inches to degrees? That should be useful as it's my understanding that prop manufacturers use the theoretical no-slip pitch to size their props. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:13 PM PST US From: "Giovanni Day" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" Peter, I am just telling you like it is. I called and got a machine and left multiple messages. I never got through and never got a call back, period. That is all I can say. Giovanni Day -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Peter Graichen Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Peter Graichen" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Giovanni Day Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: NSI CAP --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Giovanni Day" I had a chance to buy one of these for $800.00 and decided against it. I called NSI several times a day for a week and got not answer and not reply to messages left. I do not want an orphaned produce and it is not looking like there will be any service from these guys. Giovanni Day Do Not Archive I don't understand why you could not get thru on the phone. I talk to them about once or twice a month and it never takes longer than about five minutes to get Heather, Dawn, Craig or Lance. Peter K. Graichen http://home.neo.rr.com/n10pg/kitfox.htm