Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Engine TBO (Carter Ames)
2. 12:12 AM - Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... (Jeff)
3. 12:19 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (customtrans@qwest.net)
4. 12:19 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (customtrans@qwest.net)
5. 12:24 AM - Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 (Lowell Fitt)
6. 04:14 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Brian Rodgers)
7. 05:29 AM - for sale kitfox lite nearly new (Jeff)
8. 06:24 AM - Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... (Paul Seehafer)
9. 06:29 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Lowell Fitt)
10. 07:17 AM - Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... (customtrans@qwest.net)
11. 07:25 AM - Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... (customtrans@qwest.net)
12. 07:40 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings ()
13. 07:41 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (customtrans@qwest.net)
14. 09:25 AM - Speedster VS Standard Wings.... (Jimmy Crane)
15. 09:39 AM - Re: Speedster VS Standard Wings.... (Hank Seidel)
16. 09:59 AM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Clint Bazzill)
17. 12:16 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Brian Rodgers)
18. 12:49 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Michel Verheughe)
19. 01:01 PM - Re: Speedster VS Standard Wings.... (customtrans@qwest.net)
20. 01:04 PM - Brian Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (kitfox@gto.net)
21. 01:09 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (kitfox@gto.net)
22. 01:11 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (customtrans@qwest.net)
23. 01:15 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Aerobatics@AOL.COM)
24. 01:20 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Lynn Matteson)
25. 01:20 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (flier)
26. 01:33 PM - Re: Jab report (Michel Verheughe)
27. 02:41 PM - Re: Wheel pants installation instructions (Norm Beauchamp)
28. 03:02 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (u2drvr@dslextreme.com)
29. 03:26 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings from U2 Driver (Aerobatics@aol.com)
30. 07:15 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (jimshumaker)
31. 07:22 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (jimshumaker)
32. 08:11 PM - Re: Engine TBO (Rick)
33. 08:27 PM - Prop tape (jimshumaker)
34. 08:31 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (Lowell Fitt)
35. 08:56 PM - Re: Engine TBO (John Perry)
36. 09:33 PM - Re: Prop tape (Rick)
37. 09:47 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (jdmcbean)
38. 09:50 PM - Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings very well said agree (Aerobatics@aol.com)
39. 11:46 PM - The tapering cowl was Three Point vs. Wheel Landings (r.thomas@za.pwc.com)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Carter Ames <carter@offto.com>
I'm looking at picking up a Kitfox IV that was built by my best friends father,
and cant' fly any longer. He put in a Subaru NSI motor with more HP (that's
all I know) and it's a tail dragger.
The question I have is, who is responsible for annuals? Can I have my local FBO
do an annual on that engine or is it entirely my responsability? The FBO said
that I had to do a 200H overhaul of the engine for the Kitfoxes, but I dunno
if he factored in that it was the Subaru engine instead of the Rotax.
Thanks for any help!
-C
Message 2
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| Subject: | kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <ragwings83@sssnet.com>
LOL yes I have accumulated both weight SHIFT and in turbulent conditions
Weight Shi* Hours.
Sorry :>)
Jeff H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rick
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
What kind of hours? :) Don't want to accumulate many of those.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <ragwings83@sssnet.com>
GREAT feedback Dave-- I am low time and am not interested in a plane that
does not fly well. If you say it flys differently than a Piper J3 in what
regards. As far as the small plane- the N3 is the only 3 axis I have flown-
it takes rudder to make the N3 work correctly- I see the Kit Model 1 many
remarks about rudder needi=ed to put the plane where you want it. WHat about
the plane makes it not a beginner plane?
PS I trust 2 strokes but I have been around them forever and a day. Rotax
503 or 447 are very reliable- I had the 582 blue without a problem in 70
hours.
Weight shit hours however.
Jeff H
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Aerobatics@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I would not hesitate flying on certain 2 strokes....
Specificly...
a newer 447 , 503 and 582
Most of the 447 are bullet proof... but all have single ignition, get the
one with electronic ign
The 503 is outstanding, especially the dual carb, dual ignition
(electronic)
The 582 had earlier issues, but the latest "Blue head" has been great.
Two strokes have much shorter TBO, but TBO is cheap. Bottom line, they can
be reliable and very economic. The have the BEST power to weight. Period.
Personaly, I strongly recommend a proven aviation Rotax shop do your
work....Lockwood is expensive, personally, worth it. Call them. They are
great.
I have seen aircraft with problems in both 4 and 2 stroke.
Before you buy, have someone that understands Rotax take a peek....
Personally, a 503 is a bit light in power... BUT I have to admit, I saw a
Model 4 fly pretty darn well with one...
If you want my opinion.... LOL
Sell the old 503 (Ebay?) , drop a new 503 in, Dual carb, E Box, get the oil
injection.... maybe an new IVO 3 blade and fly the heck out of it... you
will get a zero engine, more power,
This way you know the engines history...
Oh...yes electric start is a Big plus!!
The KF 1 and 2 are very simalar. Its not a beginners plane. I have almost
300 hours on my KF2 and love it, but it take a lot more to fly a KF 1, 2
than
a J3 I have time in them too...
The KF 3, 4 and so on became easier....
Hey, read all the responses.... its a good well intentioned group.... make
an informed descision...
Fly safe and enjoy!
Dave
Message 3
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| Subject: | Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
I feel that answer is yes to better on grass field. I feel that way because
the grass is more forgiving, not so grabby. so when going into a ground
loop having the tires slip to speak is good, that way the rudder will work
for you. Experienced this with both real planes as well as remote
airplanes.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
While on the subject, a quick question, guys:
I fear ground loop, therefore I fear crosswind. Do I have a lesser chance to
ground loop, in crosswind, on a grass field, than on an asphalt runway?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 4
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| Subject: | Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
I never said the 3 point is easier than wheels. My prefered landing is
wheels. And, even though I said 3 point for runway21 I still use wheels
landing on that, but, I end up putting the brakes on right as soon as I
land, but, that wears the brakes out, but is a lot of fun. You better have
some good experience because stick control is very needed to keep the nose
over from happening. One last tip for wheel landing, take and have a good
decent and at the last moment flair with only 1/4 stick back to 1/2 to slow
your decent and the wheels will greese right on the runway, way cool, I've
had to look at the wheels to make sure I was down. Then of course push
forward on the stick and then increase the throttle.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]"
<john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
I'm just the opposite from Steve. I find wheel landings much easier than
3-points. Descend, level off, as soon as the mains touch push forward on
the stick, let speed bleed away, pull back on stick to plant tail on ground
(or just let the tail settle to the ground and then pull back). I feel I
have full control of the airplane up to and including putting the tail down.
If it bounces, it means I didn't push forward on the stick immediately as
the wheels touched. The thing about a wheel landing is that the plane is
not stalled at touch down. The wheel landing will also get you down, no
matter what; gravity, you know :). I also like the advice that one should
practice and be proficient at both types of landing.
-----Original Message-----
From: customtrans@qwest.net [mailto:customtrans@qwest.net]
Subject: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
I would like to put in my take on wheel landings vs. three point.
First off, if you are going for the wheel landings, you better have some
good instruction on such, and current instruction. My first instructor
believed in them and tried real hard to teach me to wheel land. I could do
it, but bounced all the time, he gave up and told me to 3 point and at the
first time of trouble forget the pride and do a go around. After my
endorsement I did nothing but practice the wheel landing, why, because I
make better, things I have trouble with, just my personality.
Second I want to say that the 3 point will get you down no matter what, so
use it. I once touched the tail first and held it there for over a 100ft.
very fun. There again, I like to try things that are hard and perfect if I
can. Whenever I have a situation that has a good cross wind or a variable
situation I move over to the grass and do a 3 point, I find this to be just
smart piloting.
Finally, YOU are the one that needs to make the decision on what landing you
are going to do. The 3point will get you down, the 2 point will tell others
you know what you are doing. It boils down to your pride, you wanting to
show off in a sense. I got to where I did the 3 point on runway 03 so I can
stay on the wheels to the end and then get off faster, the hanger was on the
east end. If I came in on 21 I did the 3 point so I can get off on the
first taxiway. One thing to remember on either landing, the first sign of
trouble get back up in the air and do it again, don't try to save a bad
landing. There is a saying that goes, if you can't take a bad landing in 5
then buy a Bonanza. So expect to do a go around once in a few.
steve a
This e-mail message may contain privileged and/or confidential information,
and is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive such
information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
sender immediately. Please delete it and all attachments from any servers,
hard drives or any other media. Other use of this e-mail by you is strictly
prohibited.
All e-mails and attachments sent and received are subject to monitoring,
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responsible for checking for the presence of "Viruses" or other "Malware".
Monsanto accepts no liability for any damage caused by any such code
transmitted by or accompanying this e-mail or any attachment.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Got a good chuckle out of this one!
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
>
> OK, I know I will be shot at but it just my advice. Stay away from the
> pull
> start two stroke and in my opinion any two stroke for an airplane. There
> are
> many reasons and time doesn't permit. Yea yea I know some body has one
> with
> a bazillion hours. Fly what you have until you can get what you really
> want.
> Don't compromise just to make it happen sooner. Better to rent until you
> find the plane and the deal, it will come. All foxes are friendly almost
> familiar, they are sensitive just like , well you know. Great flyers
> though.
> Don't send off the check, keep looking. Get at least a model 5 with the
> later 1550 gross and 100HP plus. Ok the rest of you guys and gals pick
> away. Got to go, the wind is calling. AS a disclaimer I know less today
> than
> I did 50 years ago. Good luck on the search.
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <ragwings83@sssnet.com>
>
> Hi- My name is Jeff Harrison and I am new to the Kitfox forum ( kitfox in
> general actually)
> I have been training in a J-3 cub ( 7 hours ) I also have soloed my N-3
> pup
> ( 2 hours)
> I am thinking about buying a kitfox 1 but would like a bit of advice on
> the
> subjects below.
> 1) Is the Kitfox a beginner friendley plane and the kitfox 1 particulary
> because of the neutral yaw stability and having to fly with rudder
> input( I
> had to with the n-3 also)
>
> 2) Are there any problems with handlign that would deem the model 1 unsafe
> as long as the updates have been done according to factory recommendation?
>
> 3) I plan on only flying 1 up all the time- are there any peopel over 6ft
> tall flying a model 1?
>
> 4)What would the average value of a model 1 be in excellent condition with
> under 200 hours on a 503 pull start single ignition Model 1 basic
> instruments and strobes?
>
> 5) Any other questions I should ask the seller of this plane before I send
> off my check?
>
> Jeff Harrison
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah, I was taught
that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor said it was
to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
I generally bring the throttle back to idle on downwind abeam the numbers and it
stays there until I throttle up to taxi off of the runway and I do wheel landings
most every time (3-pointers are akin to "squatting"). It's all about managing
your momentum.
The tail usually stays up until it can no longer sustain lift, then I set it gently
to the pavement.
Flying a tight pattern at idle is also good practice for engine-out landings (everyone
practices those, right?), too.
For you "squatting is safer types", I was riding with my partner as PIC on Saturday
when he attempted a 3-pt landing, but misjudged the flair and we ended up
bouncing back about 25 feet into the air AND the speed was WAY low AND the nose
was pointed at the clouds. Not a desirable condition. A bounce during a wheel
landing can happen the same way, but you still have "flying speed". 3-pt
is not safer, in my book.
Keep your feet dancing on the rudder pedals and you won't ground-loop. Of course,
TOO much dancing might CAUSE the ground loop. ;o)
Happy landings !
Brian
IV w/ CAP 140
----- Original Message -----
From: <customtrans@qwest.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> I never said the 3 point is easier than wheels. My prefered landing is
> wheels. And, even though I said 3 point for runway21 I still use wheels
> landing on that, but, I end up putting the brakes on right as soon as I
> land, but, that wears the brakes out, but is a lot of fun. You better have
> some good experience because stick control is very needed to keep the nose
> over from happening. One last tip for wheel landing, take and have a good
> decent and at the last moment flair with only 1/4 stick back to 1/2 to slow
> your decent and the wheels will greese right on the runway, way cool, I've
> had to look at the wheels to make sure I was down. Then of course push
> forward on the stick and then increase the throttle.
>
> steve a
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]
> To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]"
> <john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
>
> I'm just the opposite from Steve. I find wheel landings much easier than
> 3-points. Descend, level off, as soon as the mains touch push forward on
> the stick, let speed bleed away, pull back on stick to plant tail on ground
> (or just let the tail settle to the ground and then pull back). I feel I
> have full control of the airplane up to and including putting the tail down.
> If it bounces, it means I didn't push forward on the stick immediately as
> the wheels touched. The thing about a wheel landing is that the plane is
> not stalled at touch down. The wheel landing will also get you down, no
> matter what; gravity, you know :). I also like the advice that one should
> practice and be proficient at both types of landing.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: customtrans@qwest.net [mailto:customtrans@qwest.net]
> To: Kitfox Group
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> I would like to put in my take on wheel landings vs. three point.
>
> First off, if you are going for the wheel landings, you better have some
> good instruction on such, and current instruction. My first instructor
> believed in them and tried real hard to teach me to wheel land. I could do
> it, but bounced all the time, he gave up and told me to 3 point and at the
> first time of trouble forget the pride and do a go around. After my
> endorsement I did nothing but practice the wheel landing, why, because I
> make better, things I have trouble with, just my personality.
>
> Second I want to say that the 3 point will get you down no matter what, so
> use it. I once touched the tail first and held it there for over a 100ft.
> very fun. There again, I like to try things that are hard and perfect if I
> can. Whenever I have a situation that has a good cross wind or a variable
> situation I move over to the grass and do a 3 point, I find this to be just
> smart piloting.
>
> Finally, YOU are the one that needs to make the decision on what landing you
> are going to do. The 3point will get you down, the 2 point will tell others
> you know what you are doing. It boils down to your pride, you wanting to
> show off in a sense. I got to where I did the 3 point on runway 03 so I can
> stay on the wheels to the end and then get off faster, the hanger was on the
> east end. If I came in on 21 I did the 3 point so I can get off on the
> first taxiway. One thing to remember on either landing, the first sign of
> trouble get back up in the air and do it again, don't try to save a bad
> landing. There is a saying that goes, if you can't take a bad landing in 5
> then buy a Bonanza. So expect to do a go around once in a few.
>
> steve a
>
>
> This e-mail message may contain privileged and/or confidential information,
> and is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive such
> information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the
> sender immediately. Please delete it and all attachments from any servers,
> hard drives or any other media. Other use of this e-mail by you is strictly
> prohibited.
>
> All e-mails and attachments sent and received are subject to monitoring,
> reading and archival by Monsanto. The recipient of this e-mail is solely
> responsible for checking for the presence of "Viruses" or other "Malware".
> Monsanto accepts no liability for any damage caused by any such code
> transmitted by or accompanying this e-mail or any attachment.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | for sale kitfox lite nearly new |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeff" <ragwings83@sssnet.com>
Here is a kitfox lite for sale on barnstormers and on ebay.
jeff H
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
I'm going to throw in my two cents worth...
Early Kitfoxes (and Avids) are very light aircraft, with very light wing
loadings and horsepower to weight ratios. So they get bounced around a
little more than later Kitfoxes (and certainly much more than your averge
cessna/piper), and are very quick to respond to throttle and control inputs.
In the beginning most G.A. pilots find them quirky and too sensitive. But
just like previous listers have stated, once you get over that initial
problem you will absolutely love the way they fly. And you'll probably
never get bored with the nimble flying characteristics.
After 1200+ hours in all different Kitfoxes and Avids, I have simple advice
to give;
1 - Fly it right to the hangar door. It is an airplane that requires a
pilot to fly until the engines shut down. Nothing less will do. Might
sound like work, but it really isn't. And that requirement will make you a
better pilot too.
2 - Fly all airplanes with a spot picked out to land in the case of engine
or airframe failure. Avoid terrain that doesn't allow an emergency landing
area. You know, just like your flight instructor should have taught you.
As far as the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate, my advice is TO FLY EVERTHING
LIKE IT HAS A TWO STOKE. You should live to be old and gray if you do. All
airplane engines can quit, and thinking anything less is not wise.
In my flying history I have had 5 engine failures. 3 in two strokes, and 2
with certified airplanes sporting certified lycoming / continental engines.
And 3 of the 5 were on takeoff. Thank god I was in an Avid/Kitfox airplane
for those episodes, as the airplanes are so maneuverable and light (compared
to your average certified GA plane) that an emergency landing on takeoff
becomes a much more surviveable situation. It's the certified airplanes I
truly worry about having an engine quit, as they are dogs by comparison.
Besides a Kitfox, I own a Lake Amphibian also. That's the one I really
worry about quitting. Heavy, draggy, and underpowered by comparison. In an
bad situation I'd take the Kitfox or Avid any day.
There's a lot of the older kitfoxes that have been flying successfully for
years. So that should be proof that you don't have to be Chuck Yaeger to
fly them. But like any airplane, you need to learn it well to operate it
safely. The advice you were given so far has been superb in my opinion,
from guys that know the airplanes well. A Kitfox isn't a Cub, but it
certainly isn't a Pitts either. They can be learned relatively easily by
even low time pilots. Just go slow and enjoy the learning experience.
Because once you learn them you will love them...
Paul S
Wisconsin
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
>
> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
> That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah, I
> was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor
> said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
(Snip)
Wasn't it an instructor that lost his license due to trying to overfly the
Rose Garden? I wonder how many instructors out there actually have time in
Kitfoxes. I think I'd wager that when instructors get together they argue
the fine parts of landing etc. just like we do. For my flight review, I
have been up with a very experienced tail wheel instructor - lots of Alaska
time - who absolutely can't get it that the Kitfox doesn't line up with the
runway like other airplanes. I have actually replaced tires twice after an
hour with him doing landing work, once with me and once when he was checking
out Leo Rice.
Instructors are great folks and very necessary at times, but sometimes, in
my opinion, they are merely repeating mantras that they learned somewhere
just like some A&Ps.
Lowell
Message 10
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| Subject: | kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
Lowell,
I totally agree. I also want to add one more thing on the kitfox4 in
relation to the Cessna. You end up bonding to the Kitfox4 unlike the
Cessna. I find that the Cessna is a boring plane to fly, whereas the Kitfox
is pure fun and it responds as fast as you can think it. Once you get use
to the Kitfox you don't even think of the inputs needed you just do them.
Yes it does take rudder, but if you are a coordinated person that becomes
second nature. There is nothing like flying a plane with a stick, whenever I
go to a flyin or something I go look at a plane and if it has a steering
wheel I go, na it's not a plane, and go to the next one, if it has a stick I
say, yep nice plane. Sorry I couldn't resist that one, is a true story
though. I still fly a Cessna once in a while, but I try to stay with the
Fox.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Markos,
Having your question unanswered to this point, I thought I might insert a
note. Consider what I say as hearsay as I don't fly a model l,ll or lll.
With that discaimer, I don't think any of the Kitfox models are too
difficult to fly.
The guy I am helping with his Lancair IV flies regularly in a Cessna
Skylane. His feet are firmly planted on the floor and he flies just like I
do when I am driving my Ford. The Kitfox likes to be flown - that is,
aileron, elevator and RUDDER. I think that is what most would say in the
sense that it takes "more" to fly a Kitfox.
I learned to fly in a Cessna 170B and what impressed me when I flew my Model
IV is that it flew exactly like an airplane. Somehow I thought it might be
different, like difficult. They trim nicely and will fly hands off - at
least for a while. I have flown well over an hour coming back from Quincy,
in the Northern Sierra Nevada Mts. with only rudder input. granted I was
slowly descending, but nevertheless I could hold heading and center the ball
with only the rudder.
There are too many guys flying the Kitfox early models to suggest that it
requires superior skills to fly them comfortably. They are different, yes,
but difficult, I doubt it.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marco Menezes" <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
>
> Dave,
>
> I have tailwheel endorsement with about 40 hrs of PA-11 and J-3 time. I'm
> getting ready to begin test flight program on my Model 2. Specifically,
> what are the flight characteristics of the Model 2 that inspired you to
> say it's "not a beginner's airplane?" I don't like surprises. (I've
> ordered the pilot's guide from Skystar but it's on backorder.)
>
> Thanks
>
> Marco Menezes
> KF2 582 N99KX
>
> Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
> I would not hesitate flying on certain 2 strokes....
>
> Specificly...
>
> a newer 447 , 503 and 582
>
> Most of the 447 are bullet proof... but all have single ignition, get the
> one with electronic ign
>
> The 503 is outstanding, especially the dual carb, dual ignition
> (electronic)
>
> The 582 had earlier issues, but the latest "Blue head" has been great.
>
> Two strokes have much shorter TBO, but TBO is cheap. Bottom line, they can
> be reliable and very economic. The have the BEST power to weight. Period.
>
> Personaly, I strongly recommend a proven aviation Rotax shop do your
> work....Lockwood is expensive, personally, worth it. Call them. They are
> great.
>
> I have seen aircraft with problems in both 4 and 2 stroke.
>
> Before you buy, have someone that understands Rotax take a peek....
>
> Personally, a 503 is a bit light in power... BUT I have to admit, I saw a
> Model 4 fly pretty darn well with one...
>
> If you want my opinion.... LOL
>
> Sell the old 503 (Ebay?) , drop a new 503 in, Dual carb, E Box, get the
> oil
> injection.... maybe an new IVO 3 blade and fly the heck out of it... you
> will get a zero engine, more power,
>
> This way you know the engines history...
>
> Oh...yes electric start is a Big plus!!
>
> The KF 1 and 2 are very simalar. Its not a beginners plane. I have almost
> 300 hours on my KF2 and love it, but it take a lot more to fly a KF 1, 2
> than
> a J3 I have time in them too...
>
> The KF 3, 4 and so on became easier....
>
> Hey, read all the responses.... its a good well intentioned group.... make
> an informed descision...
>
> Fly safe and enjoy!
>
> Dave
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior 2... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
After having my plane as a long wing and flown for 170 hrs. and then
shortening the wings to a speedster, I say the same, the speedster is the
way to go. Believe it, it has better ground effect, cross wind
characteristics, and my favorite, quick response on the controls.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Aerobatics@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox 1 vs 2-4 I have a 2 and a Piper Warrior
2...
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I have also flown a KF 4 and can tell you its a lot easier than a 1 or 2.
I
really like the 4 Speedster :-)....
Anyways,
I am not a super high time pilot.... but, clearly some planes are easier
tha
n other to fly than others. If we can agree on that, and having flown a 2
a
fair amount (almost 300 hours) and a 4 a bit, I vividly remember the
learning curve. It is my experience, It took time. In fact a LOT more
time than my
warrior 2.
I never said the KF2 as a bad plane..... Im keeping it. Its cute, fun and
very STOL.
I Love it, just I think its reasonable to report, it takes good training
and
more time to master than a J3 or Cessna 172 Pa 28 and so on. Its a
different animal. But when you "get it" its a blast.
Where are you located?
Dave
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
Lowell,
Explain!!
I guess I don't get it when you say that the Kitfox does not line up with the
runway.
gary
On Wed May 25 9:28 , 'Lowell Fitt' <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> sent:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" brodg@texas.net>
>>
>> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
>> That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah, I
>> was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor
>> said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
>
>(Snip)
>
>Wasn't it an instructor that lost his license due to trying to overfly the
>Rose Garden? I wonder how many instructors out there actually have time in
>Kitfoxes. I think I'd wager that when instructors get together they argue
>the fine parts of landing etc. just like we do. For my flight review, I
>have been up with a very experienced tail wheel instructor - lots of Alaska
>time - who absolutely can't get it that the Kitfox doesn't line up with the
>runway like other airplanes. I have actually replaced tires twice after an
>hour with him doing landing work, once with me and once when he was checking
>out Leo Rice.
>
>Instructors are great folks and very necessary at times, but sometimes, in
>my opinion, they are merely repeating mantras that they learned somewhere
>just like some A&Ps.
>
>Lowell
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
Try this one out for an explaination, to see down the runway. And that's
generally why I pick the wheels over the 3 point.
Next explaination, so I can get down to the end of the runway faster. Run
it back up to 50 and pass the other person on the taxiway next to you that
may have landed ahead of you that felt it necessary to get off on the first
taxiway and is now going 10mph or slower on a taxiway to get to the same
area as you. It's fun, try it some time. Besides if you touch down on a
runway right at the beginning edge like I do, you have sometimes over 2000
ft. left, why not run it up and keep the tail up until the last 500ft. Not
only is it fun, but if something does go wrong just pull back on the stick
and do a go around.
Last explaination, If you run it back up and keep the tail up you can get a
better idea of what is in the area, like I said above, you can see better.
Also if I try to get off on the first taxiway I feel rushed and if rushed
you make mistakes, like putting the brakes on. staying on the wheels a
little longer lets you take the time to land the plane. I feel much more
confortable slowly lowering the tail than just letting it drop.
One more thing I do is on final I pull the throttle all the way back and
make every landing like I had an engine out. Why? because when the day
comes that I have an engine out I will know how to do it.
All I can say is flying should be for fun, how we have fun is up to the
pilot flying.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian
Rodgers
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah, I
was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor
said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
I generally bring the throttle back to idle on downwind abeam the numbers
and it stays there until I throttle up to taxi off of the runway and I do
wheel landings most every time (3-pointers are akin to "squatting"). It's
all about managing your momentum.
The tail usually stays up until it can no longer sustain lift, then I set it
gently to the pavement.
Flying a tight pattern at idle is also good practice for engine-out landings
(everyone practices those, right?), too.
For you "squatting is safer types", I was riding with my partner as PIC on
Saturday when he attempted a 3-pt landing, but misjudged the flair and we
ended up bouncing back about 25 feet into the air AND the speed was WAY low
AND the nose was pointed at the clouds. Not a desirable condition. A
bounce during a wheel landing can happen the same way, but you still have
"flying speed". 3-pt is not safer, in my book.
Keep your feet dancing on the rudder pedals and you won't ground-loop. Of
course, TOO much dancing might CAUSE the ground loop. ;o)
Happy landings !
Brian
IV w/ CAP 140
----- Original Message -----
From: <customtrans@qwest.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> I never said the 3 point is easier than wheels. My prefered landing is
> wheels. And, even though I said 3 point for runway21 I still use wheels
> landing on that, but, I end up putting the brakes on right as soon as I
> land, but, that wears the brakes out, but is a lot of fun. You better
have
> some good experience because stick control is very needed to keep the nose
> over from happening. One last tip for wheel landing, take and have a good
> decent and at the last moment flair with only 1/4 stick back to 1/2 to
slow
> your decent and the wheels will greese right on the runway, way cool, I've
> had to look at the wheels to make sure I was down. Then of course push
> forward on the stick and then increase the throttle.
>
> steve a
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]
> To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]"
> <john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
>
> I'm just the opposite from Steve. I find wheel landings much easier than
> 3-points. Descend, level off, as soon as the mains touch push forward on
> the stick, let speed bleed away, pull back on stick to plant tail on
ground
> (or just let the tail settle to the ground and then pull back). I feel I
> have full control of the airplane up to and including putting the tail
down.
> If it bounces, it means I didn't push forward on the stick immediately as
> the wheels touched. The thing about a wheel landing is that the plane is
> not stalled at touch down. The wheel landing will also get you down, no
> matter what; gravity, you know :). I also like the advice that one
should
> practice and be proficient at both types of landing.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: customtrans@qwest.net [mailto:customtrans@qwest.net]
> To: Kitfox Group
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> I would like to put in my take on wheel landings vs. three point.
>
> First off, if you are going for the wheel landings, you better have some
> good instruction on such, and current instruction. My first instructor
> believed in them and tried real hard to teach me to wheel land. I could
do
> it, but bounced all the time, he gave up and told me to 3 point and at the
> first time of trouble forget the pride and do a go around. After my
> endorsement I did nothing but practice the wheel landing, why, because I
> make better, things I have trouble with, just my personality.
>
> Second I want to say that the 3 point will get you down no matter what, so
> use it. I once touched the tail first and held it there for over a 100ft.
> very fun. There again, I like to try things that are hard and perfect if
I
> can. Whenever I have a situation that has a good cross wind or a variable
> situation I move over to the grass and do a 3 point, I find this to be
just
> smart piloting.
>
> Finally, YOU are the one that needs to make the decision on what landing
you
> are going to do. The 3point will get you down, the 2 point will tell
others
> you know what you are doing. It boils down to your pride, you wanting to
> show off in a sense. I got to where I did the 3 point on runway 03 so I
can
> stay on the wheels to the end and then get off faster, the hanger was on
the
> east end. If I came in on 21 I did the 3 point so I can get off on the
> first taxiway. One thing to remember on either landing, the first sign of
> trouble get back up in the air and do it again, don't try to save a bad
> landing. There is a saying that goes, if you can't take a bad landing in
5
> then buy a Bonanza. So expect to do a go around once in a few.
>
> steve a
>
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Speedster VS Standard Wings.... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmy Crane" <jimmy_crane@hotmail.com>
Im building a Classic IV that will be powered by a 912ul. My wings are
assembled (all 10 ribs) with the ribs and strut brackets bonded and riveted
in place. I have set the dihedral and twist. They are ready for the
stringers and false ribs, so its now or never. I talked with Frank at
Skystar yesterday and he said I could clip them at this stage of the game
with no problems.
I would like to hear some pros and cons on the speedster wing as opposed to
the standard length. I understand that with the clipped wing you gain a
little speed but require a little more runway to takeoff and land. Any info
would be greatly appreciated.
Jimmy Crane
Classic IV
Stockbridge Ga.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Speedster VS Standard Wings.... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Hank Seidel <hank@hankseidel.com>
I couldn't make up my mind so my Model IV wings are convertible from
speedster to long. I am starting to think about which configuration I
should use for the first flight. Any comments regarding this? Has
anyone else out there done this?
Hank
Model IV under construction
On May 25, 2005, at 11:24 AM, Jimmy Crane wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmy Crane"
> <jimmy_crane@hotmail.com>
>
> Im building a Classic IV that will be powered by a 912ul. My wings are
> assembled (all 10 ribs) with the ribs and strut brackets bonded and
> riveted
> in place. I have set the dihedral and twist. They are ready for the
> stringers and false ribs, so its now or never. I talked with Frank at
> Skystar yesterday and he said I could clip them at this stage of the
> game
> with no problems.
> I would like to hear some pros and cons on the speedster wing as
> opposed to
> the standard length. I understand that with the clipped wing you gain
> a
> little speed but require a little more runway to takeoff and land.
> Any info
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Jimmy Crane
> Classic IV
> Stockbridge Ga.
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
You do not need a cross wind to groundloop. Clint
From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Think, ice, snow, grass, pavement. Can you even
ground loop on ice? How about on your skis on snow?
Grass is not as forgiving as those, but more slippery
than pavement. I prefer grass myself.
When it goes wrong, remember: It isn't your fault.
It isn't my fault. It is as-fault.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
>
> While on the subject, a quick question, guys:
> I fear ground loop, therefore I fear crosswind. Do I
> have a lesser chance to ground loop, in crosswind,
> on a grass field, than on an asphalt runway?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
__________________________________
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
Steve,
"...to see down the runway." / "better idea of what is in the area"? What
are you doing on crosswind, downwind, base, and final if observing the
runway environment is not part of it? I agree that wheel landings allow
better visibility over the nose, but maintaining the power setting just to
"see down the runway" is a fairly empty argument. Take a bus to
sightsee....
"...so I can get down to the end of the runway faster." I guess you're
lucky to not have a 15,000 foot runway. Apparently, you do not plan your
landings very well. If you don't want the first taxiway, why land "right at
the beginning edge"? Just so that you can taxi 2000 ft? That can cause
unnecessary congestion as others wait for you since you have the
right-of-way while on the runway, but I don't guess that you are too
concerned about others as you also find it a big sport to pass the
considerate pilot that vacated the runway for YOU ("pass the other person on
the taxiway next to you").
Your examples make it seem that you add power after a wheel landing to make
up for poor planning and/or to be rude.
Still waiting for a GOOD reason to add power after landing,
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: <customtrans@qwest.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
>
> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
>
> Try this one out for an explaination, to see down the runway. And that's
> generally why I pick the wheels over the 3 point.
>
> Next explaination, so I can get down to the end of the runway faster. Run
> it back up to 50 and pass the other person on the taxiway next to you that
> may have landed ahead of you that felt it necessary to get off on the
first
> taxiway and is now going 10mph or slower on a taxiway to get to the same
> area as you. It's fun, try it some time. Besides if you touch down on a
> runway right at the beginning edge like I do, you have sometimes over 2000
> ft. left, why not run it up and keep the tail up until the last 500ft.
Not
> only is it fun, but if something does go wrong just pull back on the stick
> and do a go around.
>
> Last explaination, If you run it back up and keep the tail up you can get
a
> better idea of what is in the area, like I said above, you can see better.
> Also if I try to get off on the first taxiway I feel rushed and if rushed
> you make mistakes, like putting the brakes on. staying on the wheels a
> little longer lets you take the time to land the plane. I feel much more
> confortable slowly lowering the tail than just letting it drop.
>
> One more thing I do is on final I pull the throttle all the way back and
> make every landing like I had an engine out. Why? because when the day
> comes that I have an engine out I will know how to do it.
>
> All I can say is flying should be for fun, how we have fun is up to the
> pilot flying.
>
> steve a
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian
> Rodgers
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
>
> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
> That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah, I
> was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor
> said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
> I generally bring the throttle back to idle on downwind abeam the numbers
> and it stays there until I throttle up to taxi off of the runway and I do
> wheel landings most every time (3-pointers are akin to "squatting"). It's
> all about managing your momentum.
> The tail usually stays up until it can no longer sustain lift, then I set
it
> gently to the pavement.
> Flying a tight pattern at idle is also good practice for engine-out
landings
> (everyone practices those, right?), too.
> For you "squatting is safer types", I was riding with my partner as PIC on
> Saturday when he attempted a 3-pt landing, but misjudged the flair and we
> ended up bouncing back about 25 feet into the air AND the speed was WAY
low
> AND the nose was pointed at the clouds. Not a desirable condition. A
> bounce during a wheel landing can happen the same way, but you still have
> "flying speed". 3-pt is not safer, in my book.
> Keep your feet dancing on the rudder pedals and you won't ground-loop. Of
> course, TOO much dancing might CAUSE the ground loop. ;o)
> Happy landings !
>
>
> Brian
> IV w/ CAP 140
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <customtrans@qwest.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
> >
> > I never said the 3 point is easier than wheels. My prefered landing is
> > wheels. And, even though I said 3 point for runway21 I still use wheels
> > landing on that, but, I end up putting the brakes on right as soon as I
> > land, but, that wears the brakes out, but is a lot of fun. You better
> have
> > some good experience because stick control is very needed to keep the
nose
> > over from happening. One last tip for wheel landing, take and have a
good
> > decent and at the last moment flair with only 1/4 stick back to 1/2 to
> slow
> > your decent and the wheels will greese right on the runway, way cool,
I've
> > had to look at the wheels to make sure I was down. Then of course push
> > forward on the stick and then increase the throttle.
> >
> > steve a
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> > FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]
> > To: 'kitfox-list@matronics.com'
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> >
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "FREDERICKSON, JOHN L [AG/2067]"
> > <john.l.frederickson@monsanto.com>
> >
> > I'm just the opposite from Steve. I find wheel landings much easier
than
> > 3-points. Descend, level off, as soon as the mains touch push forward
on
> > the stick, let speed bleed away, pull back on stick to plant tail on
> ground
> > (or just let the tail settle to the ground and then pull back). I feel
I
> > have full control of the airplane up to and including putting the tail
> down.
> > If it bounces, it means I didn't push forward on the stick immediately
as
> > the wheels touched. The thing about a wheel landing is that the plane
is
> > not stalled at touch down. The wheel landing will also get you down, no
> > matter what; gravity, you know :). I also like the advice that one
> should
> > practice and be proficient at both types of landing.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: customtrans@qwest.net [mailto:customtrans@qwest.net]
> > To: Kitfox Group
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
> >
> > I would like to put in my take on wheel landings vs. three point.
> >
> > First off, if you are going for the wheel landings, you better have some
> > good instruction on such, and current instruction. My first instructor
> > believed in them and tried real hard to teach me to wheel land. I could
> do
> > it, but bounced all the time, he gave up and told me to 3 point and at
the
> > first time of trouble forget the pride and do a go around. After my
> > endorsement I did nothing but practice the wheel landing, why, because I
> > make better, things I have trouble with, just my personality.
> >
> > Second I want to say that the 3 point will get you down no matter what,
so
> > use it. I once touched the tail first and held it there for over a
100ft.
> > very fun. There again, I like to try things that are hard and perfect
if
> I
> > can. Whenever I have a situation that has a good cross wind or a
variable
> > situation I move over to the grass and do a 3 point, I find this to be
> just
> > smart piloting.
> >
> > Finally, YOU are the one that needs to make the decision on what landing
> you
> > are going to do. The 3point will get you down, the 2 point will tell
> others
> > you know what you are doing. It boils down to your pride, you wanting
to
> > show off in a sense. I got to where I did the 3 point on runway 03 so I
> can
> > stay on the wheels to the end and then get off faster, the hanger was on
> the
> > east end. If I came in on 21 I did the 3 point so I can get off on the
> > first taxiway. One thing to remember on either landing, the first sign
of
> > trouble get back up in the air and do it again, don't try to save a bad
> > landing. There is a saying that goes, if you can't take a bad landing
in
> 5
> > then buy a Bonanza. So expect to do a go around once in a few.
> >
> > steve a
> >
> >
> > This e-mail message may contain privileged and/or confidential
> information,
> > and is intended to be received only by persons entitled to receive such
> > information. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify
the
> > sender immediately. Please delete it and all attachments from any
> servers,
> > hard drives or any other media. Other use of this e-mail by you is
> strictly
> > prohibited.
> >
> > All e-mails and attachments sent and received are subject to monitoring,
> > reading and archival by Monsanto. The recipient of this e-mail is
solely
> > responsible for checking for the presence of "Viruses" or other
"Malware".
> > Monsanto accepts no liability for any damage caused by any such code
> > transmitted by or accompanying this e-mail or any attachment.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Thank you for your answers, Steve, Kurt, Gary, Kirby and Clint.
To resume what has been said: I should land on grass since it gives better
control of the plane. Should it then start to yaw into a uncontrollable ground
loop, I should take my police badge out and yell: "Freeze turkey!" until the
runway turns into a nice blue ice layer where I can skid sideways without even
spilling a drop of my gin tonic, right? :-)
But to go back to the original question, I think that, during my cross-country
trip, if I need to land in a crosswind and I can choose between a grass field
and an asphalt field, I'll take the grass one, land on a full stalled
three-points, keep the stick in my stomach, dance on the pedals, ready to
counter a windvaning effect, while keeping the weatherside aileron low.
Do you approve, guys?
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Speedster VS Standard Wings.... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
On take off you might need an additional 100ft. Now with that being said, I
use to take off at about 300ft. with full load, meaning close to 1200lb.
with the long wing during the heat of the summer. Add another 100 ft. and
that's what you get. On landing I found no difference other than more
ground effect which is good, it wanted to keep floating down the runway.
Now the difference on the speedster model and the regular model is the
dihedral, mine has the short wing with dihedral and I like it a bunch. I
really like the aileron response.
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jimmy Crane
Subject: Kitfox-List: Speedster VS Standard Wings....
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmy Crane" <jimmy_crane@hotmail.com>
Im building a Classic IV that will be powered by a 912ul. My wings are
assembled (all 10 ribs) with the ribs and strut brackets bonded and riveted
in place. I have set the dihedral and twist. They are ready for the
stringers and false ribs, so its now or never. I talked with Frank at
Skystar yesterday and he said I could clip them at this stage of the game
with no problems.
I would like to hear some pros and cons on the speedster wing as opposed to
the standard length. I understand that with the clipped wing you gain a
little speed but require a little more runway to takeoff and land. Any info
would be greatly appreciated.
Jimmy Crane
Classic IV
Stockbridge Ga.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Brian, You seem to have the same questions that I do.
""is a fairly empty argument. Take a bus to
> sightsee... ""
Exactly, and one other point here on same guy.
""One more thing I do is on final I pull the throttle all the way back
and
> > make every landing like I had an engine out. Why? because when the
day
> > comes that I have an engine out I will know how to do it""
Are you sure you get less drag with engine at idle than with prop
windmilling?
Suggest for the gurus to just hit kill switches and then spout off.
Dead stick a good excercise and will definalty help you if and when you
have an engine out. But spin training is important too and no one
wants to learn it.
Go figure,
Kirby
PS brian ,I am sending a cc to you as this mail seems to be fairly
delayed lately. now 4:06 EST
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
>
> Steve,
> "...to see down the runway." / "better idea of what is in the area"?
What
> are you doing on crosswind, downwind, base, and final if observing
the
> runway environment is not part of it? I agree that wheel landings
allow
> better visibility over the nose, but maintaining the power setting
just to
> "see down the runway" is a fairly empty argument. Take a bus to
> sightsee....
> "...so I can get down to the end of the runway faster." I guess
you're
> lucky to not have a 15,000 foot runway. Apparently, you do not plan
your
> landings very well. If you don't want the first taxiway, why land
"right at
> the beginning edge"? Just so that you can taxi 2000 ft? That can
cause
> unnecessary congestion as others wait for you since you have the
> right-of-way while on the runway, but I don't guess that you are too
> concerned about others as you also find it a big sport to pass the
> considerate pilot that vacated the runway for YOU ("pass the other
person on
> the taxiway next to you").
>
> Your examples make it seem that you add power after a wheel landing
to make
> up for poor planning and/or to be rude.
>
> Still waiting for a GOOD reason to add power after landing,
> Brian
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Michel , Good points and keeping stick into wind is excellent. A pilot
must know where the wind is all the time. And same goes for taxing
when rear quartering tailwind.
Landing on asphault or grass is really neither here nor there. Full
stall landing and where you want it to end up is all that counts. If
you fear crosswinds, I would suggest doing touch and gos till you
feel comfortable. One never knows when you might to show off your
newly aquired talent.
Kirby sent 4:13 EST
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
<michel@online.no>
>
> Thank you for your answers, Steve, Kurt, Gary, Kirby and Clint.
>
> To resume what has been said: I should land on grass since it gives
better
> control of the plane. Should it then start to yaw into a
uncontrollable ground
> loop, I should take my police badge out and yell: "Freeze turkey!"
until the
> runway turns into a nice blue ice layer where I can skid sideways
without even
> spilling a drop of my gin tonic, right? :-)
>
> But to go back to the original question, I think that, during my
cross-country
> trip, if I need to land in a crosswind and I can choose between a
grass field
> and an asphalt field, I'll take the grass one, land on a full
stalled
> three-points, keep the stick in my stomach, dance on the pedals,
ready to
> counter a windvaning effect, while keeping the weatherside aileron
low.
> Do you approve, guys?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
Message 22
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| Subject: | Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: customtrans@qwest.net
no
steve a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clint
Bazzill
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
<clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
You do not need a cross wind to groundloop. Clint
From: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Think, ice, snow, grass, pavement. Can you even
ground loop on ice? How about on your skis on snow?
Grass is not as forgiving as those, but more slippery
than pavement. I prefer grass myself.
When it goes wrong, remember: It isn't your fault.
It isn't my fault. It is as-fault.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
>
> While on the subject, a quick question, guys:
> I fear ground loop, therefore I fear crosswind. Do I
> have a lesser chance to ground loop, in crosswind,
> on a grass field, than on an asphalt runway?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
__________________________________
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
Well Both are proven methods...
and everyone has an opinion......
So Ill be brief...LOL
My strip is 800 feet...there is no way I can land and stop using a wheel
landing.
And I always slip to land..... hmmmm
:-)
Best
Dave KF2 582
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
...gin (and) tonic? Now yer talkin' my language, Michel!
Lynn
do not archive
On Wednesday, May 25, 2005, at 03:48 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Thank you for your answers, Steve, Kurt, Gary, Kirby and Clint.
>
> To resume what has been said: I should land on grass since it gives
> better
> control of the plane. Should it then start to yaw into a
> uncontrollable ground
> loop, I should take my police badge out and yell: "Freeze turkey!"
> until the
> runway turns into a nice blue ice layer where I can skid sideways
> without even
> spilling a drop of my gin tonic, right? :-)
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Hey Michel,
You're thinking about it too much! Just fly the
plane. The Fox seems no easier to groundloop than
any other taildragger. I've personally never even
considered it and I've landed in some winds that have
made my flying buddy pucker the seat cushion. I've
got time in Citabria, Decathlon, Cub, 170, and a
Nieuport replica (which was probably the worst from a
xwind standpoint) and I still like the solid feel the
Fox gives with a wheel landing the best.
Don't sweat it.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel
Landings
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
<michel@online.no>
>
>Thank you for your answers, Steve, Kurt, Gary, Kirby
and Clint.
>
>To resume what has been said: I should land on grass
since it gives better
>control of the plane. Should it then start to yaw
into a uncontrollable ground
>loop, I should take my police badge out and
yell: "Freeze turkey!" until the
>runway turns into a nice blue ice layer where I can
skid sideways without even
>spilling a drop of my gin tonic, right? :-)
>
>But to go back to the original question, I think
that, during my cross-country
>trip, if I need to land in a crosswind and I can
choose between a grass field
>and an asphalt field, I'll take the grass one, land
on a full stalled
>three-points, keep the stick in my stomach, dance on
the pedals, ready to
>counter a windvaning effect, while keeping the
weatherside aileron low.
>Do you approve, guys?
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>do not archive
>
>
>_-
======================================================
======
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
List
>_-
======================================================
======
>
>
Message 26
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Hello Kurt,
kurt schrader wrote:
> If everything were perfect, the door would be in a low
> pressure area.
This is the interesting point on which I am not getting any wiser. My Jabiru
dealer tells me that the key to a cool engine is a larger outlet that sucks the
air out, as opposed to an inlet the blows much air in.
Unless you want to toast marshmallows on your engine top, a large difference of
pressure must be created between the top and the bottom of the engine room.
If we think of the door as an airfoil with a certain AoA, the upper side (the
bottom of the cowling) is a low pressure as the air passes under (high
pressure) and sucks whatever is over it.
This is the reason my actual cowl flap is not working. While it "strangles" the
outlet, it doesn't decreases the AoA of the "airfoil."
Imagine now the door (airfoil) being free to rotate to a stable position. What
would it be? I think it will be such as the pressure is equal on both sides.
Where will that be? I think, not full open nor full closed.
I think about dynamic vs. static pressure, I think about guys like Bernoulli
and Venturi and I end up scratching my head with a big interrogation mark, in a
bubble over it, fearing that a horn of my helmet may puncture it.
... could you please put instead a light bulb in my bubble? :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Wheel pants installation instructions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Norm Beauchamp <nebchmp@wcc.net>
Gary,
I have the instructions if you still need them. Norm
gjglh@cebridge.net wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
>
>
> A fellow kitfoxer just gave me his wheel pants from his kitfox.
>They are still in the rough and need to be made to fit. The
>problem I have is that he has the instructions are to fit the
>wheel pants to his standard gear. I have the aluminum spring gear
>on my speedster. Does anyone have a copy of the installation
>instructions for this type of gear?
>
>Thanks
>Gary
>M-IV speester
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: u2drvr@dslextreme.com
OK, after all the discussion, I feel compelled to add my $.02:
Crosswind Landing: When landing three point, as the aircraft slows down,
directional control authority from the flight controls (roll and yaw) goes
down as the tailwheel steering authority goes up. When crosswinds are
light, there is an overlap of control authority and it is easy to keep the
plane going straight. As the crosswind increases, the overlap is reduced
to the point where you just maintain directional control. Eventually,
there is a gap of control, or a point where you no longer have
sufficient rudder authority (due to slow speed) and have yet to gain
sufficient steering authority (not enough weight on the tailwheel.) The
point where this gap begins to occur is a good place to set a crosswind
limit for the aircraft (in the U-2 this occurs at about 18 knots, so our
crosswind limit is 15.)
Wheel landings are recommended for most taildragger aircraft because
touchdown occurs at a higher speed, affording more control, and the
transition from rudder control to tailwheel control is made very rapidly
when the tailwheel is lowered. This makes wheel landings safer in
crosswind conditions.
The Kitfox however, is not like most taildraggers when it comes to this
subject. The large rudder, low stall speed, and full span flaperons means
that you have excellent directional control from the rudder down to a very
low speed. Essentially, the gap does not exist in our case and this is
why Ed Downs correctly recommends full stall landings for crosswinds. The
Kitfoxs crosswind capability is limited more by the steering authority of
the tailwheel, which depends greatly on the tailwheel itself and the
friction of the landing surface.
I practice both wheel and three point landings and enjoy both. I find the
wheel landings more challenging to my pilot skills, which is why I like
them (the same reason I still fly the U-2 after 10 yearsits
challenging!) I have landed with 20+ knots of crosswind using a full stall
landing, and the only problem was taxiing back to the hangar.
Anway, just my opinion and experience, your results may vary!
Blue Skies,
Brian Peck
Kitfox V (IO-240B), T-38A/B, U-2S test pilot
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings from U2 Driver |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I agree totally....... I have done very short landings in a STRONG
crosswind like I said Before, my strip is 800 feet......... I cant aford the
time
and distance to finesse a wheel landing..... if the flare is a teeny weeny
delayed I run out of runway really fast...
Im so used to it, I dont land any other way.... at least the Kitfox 2 .....
and thats what we were discusing..:-)
Dave
KF2 582
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Brian
Thank you for finally helping us with the technical subtleties. I always
enjoy you clear and understandable explinations.
Jim Shumaker
> Crosswind Landing: When landing three point, as the aircraft slows down,
> directional control authority from the flight controls (roll and yaw) goes
> down as the tailwheel steering authority goes up. When crosswinds are
> light, there is an overlap of control authority and it is easy to keep the
> plane going straight. As the crosswind increases, the overlap is reduced
> to the point where you just maintain directional control. Eventually,
> there is a gap of control, or a point where you no longer have
> sufficient rudder authority (due to slow speed) and have yet to gain
> sufficient steering authority (not enough weight on the tailwheel.) The
> point where this gap begins to occur is a good place to set a crosswind
> limit for the aircraft (in the U-2 this occurs at about 18 knots, so our
> crosswind limit is 15.)
>
> Wheel landings are recommended for most taildragger aircraft because
> touchdown occurs at a higher speed, affording more control, and the
> transition from rudder control to tailwheel control is made very rapidly
> when the tailwheel is lowered. This makes wheel landings safer in
> crosswind conditions.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Michel
We do not always get a choice of landing places when we fly cross country.
So your plan is fine with one caveat. When you have to land in winds
gusting above 30 mph, it will be necessary to pin the plane to the runway
with forward elevator. That will mean a wheel landing. It may mean taxiing
with the tailwheel up. Which of course means no cross wind taxiing. I have
also needed help getting out of the plane to tie it down when this has
happened to me.
Jim Shumaker
> But to go back to the original question, I think that, during my
> cross-country
> trip, if I need to land in a crosswind and I can choose between a grass
> field
> and an asphalt field, I'll take the grass one, land on a full stalled
> three-points, keep the stick in my stomach, dance on the pedals, ready to
> counter a windvaning effect, while keeping the weatherside aileron low.
> Do you approve, guys?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
Message 32
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
Don't think Lance ever set a TBO. I would think 2000 hours might be easily
attainable if serviced and run properly, maybe a great deal more. If the
builder got his repairman cert. he can sign off the annual you do if he
wants to. Otherwise you are in no different position than GA, except you
have to find someone familiar and willing to do the work. 200 hours is a
bogus number and doesn't apply to anything. I cant imagine where they came
up with such a number.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carter Ames
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine TBO
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Carter Ames <carter@offto.com>
I'm looking at picking up a Kitfox IV that was built by my best friends
father, and cant' fly any longer. He put in a Subaru NSI motor with more HP
(that's all I know) and it's a tail dragger.
The question I have is, who is responsible for annuals? Can I have my local
FBO do an annual on that engine or is it entirely my responsability? The
FBO said that I had to do a 200H overhaul of the engine for the Kitfoxes,
but I dunno if he factored in that it was the Subaru engine instead of the
Rotax.
Thanks for any help!
-C
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Here is a different subject (sort of).
I have been flying a few years and developed nicks and roughness in my Warp Drive
propeller. Finally got around to filling and painting the prop and so to
protect it I put on the prop tape that came with it originally. The plane felt
like it lacked power so I did some full throttle testing witht he prop tape
on and then removed the tape and tested again. My top speed, trimmed for level
flight, went from 91 to 96 mph. (Rotax 912 in an old Model III with undercambered
wing).
During the testing a friend called and said he had landed in a field a few mile
away, could I join him? Well, shucks, what good is it to have a Kitfox if you
don't land it in fields?
Sure enough he was in the middle of a grassy, weedy, stickery field on the slide
of a slight hill. Couldn't let a Citabria show me up so I landed uphill in
this gopher infested hill. (Soft field touch down and kept the tail wheel really
light so as to not stick it in on of those critterrs homes. Heard that can
pull a tail wheel right off.)
That was really fun, but back to the prop tape and stuff. We flew out of there
with him not believin my flight testing numbers were very accurate. On the way
up the valley we found a sand bar on the river that was long and even and had
a nice smooth breeze blowing straight down the length of it. He flew the length
of it first and touched his wheels down to feel it out. Looked OK to me
so I tried the same. It felt pretty firm and pretty smooth so with my front
wheels on the sand I cut the throttle in a good looking section of the bar and
let it settle. It tried to pitch me over a bit but the landing was OK. Wayne
set down at the beginning of the bar where the sand was wetter and firmer.
For the photo op I tried to taxi back to the beginning of the sandbar. After
turning 180 degrees I hit a soft spot in a swale and almost pitch poled the plane.
(couldn't resist the nautical term Michel). Yup, the plane stopped, the
nose went over, and I thought I was going to stick its nose in the sand and
roll it over on its top. Pullling the throttle back brought the tail down and
the only damage was some sand blasting of the prop.
Well flying with a buddy is the only way to explore. Wayne helped me get the plane
unstuck and for his help I loaned him my camera for his photo record. We
were on our way in just a few minutes. Once in the air I trimmed the plane for
full throttle level flight and found the sand blasting had cut 2 mph off my
top end. That is more than 2 percent, just from some pitting of the leading
edge of the prop. Anyways, I landed tailwheel first in Wayne's 900 foot backyard
strip so that I could make the offramp at the halfway point. (Had to retrieve
the camera.)
Flew back to my home field (6000 foot paved) where I again landed front wheels
at 50 and taxied with my tail up to clear the runway asap. (King Air short final)
Then when I got on the taxiway I lifted the tailwheel so I could get back
to the hanger quicker.
Thought you all might like to know about what I found with the prop tape. If I
find prop tape that does not slow the plane down I'll let you know.
Jim Shumaker
ps I am stayin out of that two wheel three wheel contriversy cause I just don't
understand it.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
The Kitfox cowl tapers toward the spinner. Most certified airplanes have
parallel cowl sides. When transitioning to the Kitfox, the typical pilot
with certified experience - my friend, the CFI - tends to try to line the
Kitfox with the side of the tapering cowl sides as he would the Cessna with
the straight cowl sides.. The airplane then touches in a slight crab, I
think, Ed Downs says about 20 from straight.
To overcome this, While on the ground line up the airplane with a distant
object - vertical tail, vertical prop blade and the distant object. After
getting the airplane pointed at something far away, sit in the airplane put
a mark on the windshield with a grease pencil or strip of thin tape in line
with the distant object. Make sure this mark is always lined up with the
centerline when you land.
I think this latter technique is what saved me when we landed in the 25 mph
cross wind. I just kept the airplane lined up and did what I had to to keep
it there, i.e. left wing low and a lot of right rudder. I am absolutely
convinced that if I had rehearsed the rules consiously, I would have had a
very different outcome. As it worked out I had some fun keeping the wings
down level after the touch down, but we all made it. It was too windy to
fuel that night, so we helped each other tie down and fueled before
departure the next morning. This adventure happened in Jackpot, Nevada, in
2003.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
>
>
> Lowell,
> Explain!!
> I guess I don't get it when you say that the Kitfox does not line up with
> the
> runway.
>
> gary
>
> On Wed May 25 9:28 , 'Lowell Fitt' <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> sent:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>
>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" brodg@texas.net>
>>>
>>> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
>>> That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah,
>>> I
>>> was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my instructor
>>> said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
>>
>>(Snip)
>>
>>Wasn't it an instructor that lost his license due to trying to overfly the
>>Rose Garden? I wonder how many instructors out there actually have time
>>in
>>Kitfoxes. I think I'd wager that when instructors get together they argue
>>the fine parts of landing etc. just like we do. For my flight review, I
>>have been up with a very experienced tail wheel instructor - lots of
>>Alaska
>>time - who absolutely can't get it that the Kitfox doesn't line up with
>>the
>>runway like other airplanes. I have actually replaced tires twice after an
>>hour with him doing landing work, once with me and once when he was
>>checking
>>out Leo Rice.
>>
>>Instructors are great folks and very necessary at times, but sometimes, in
>>my opinion, they are merely repeating mantras that they learned somewhere
>>just like some A&Ps.
>>
>>Lowell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 35
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" <eskflyer@pld.com>
I would not trust any local FBO to do my annuals they do not know my plane
better than me . As far as you FBO saying you have to have a 200 hr overhaul
i would tell em to stick it and run fast if this is the kind of work ethic
they have for times to overhaul they are making money hand over fist and
screwing all there clients. Even with a 2 stroke they tbo given is a
estimate and many have made it far longer than tbo and some do not even make
tbo . Same goes for continentals and lycomings some make tbo and others go
far past and others only last a short time . As far as annuals according to
the FAA you the pilot in command are responsible to make certain the plane
is safe to fly even if the logs are signed off by another that it is safe to
fly it is your butt as pilot in command to see that it is safe no one elses.
John Perry
DO NOT ARCHIVE
The question I have is, who is responsible for annuals? Can I have my local
FBO do an annual on that engine or is it entirely my responsability? The
FBO said that I had to do a 200H overhaul of the engine for the Kitfoxes,
but I dunno if he factored in that it was the Subaru engine instead of the
Rotax.
Thanks for any help!
-C
Message 36
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rick" <turboflyer@comcast.net>
So your saying the tape slowed you down, interesting. I wonder if the tape
applied to the rough blades would have had different effect. Is the tape
dimpled? I have been considering sending my blades in for an overhaul they
are at almost 600 hours. It would be nice just to replace tape and not
refurbish the blades every 500 or 600 hours.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jimshumaker
Subject: Kitfox-List: Prop tape
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jimshumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Here is a different subject (sort of).
I have been flying a few years and developed nicks and roughness in my Warp
Drive propeller.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
I have been trying really hard to stay out of this one..... So I am only
going to share one item of interest as it relates to the Kitfox. As an
instructor, it should be taught that one should not use the cowlings for
runway alignment.. that is on any aircraft.. but lets face it.. we all do..
some more then others. Your eyes pick it up as a reference.
The Kitfox round cowl slopes off about 20 degrees and this creates issues
with some. The smooth cowls aren't as bad but still slope off some. What I
have demonstrated on several occasions is to do a normal stabilized approach
to landing.. on short, short final take a peek at the slip/skid ball and
center it. You'll be surprised at the alignment. Once you see it.. it
becomes clear.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings very well said agree |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 5/25/2005 11:48:51 PM Central Daylight Time,
jdmcbean@cableone.net writes:
The Kitfox round cowl slopes off about 20 degrees and this creates issues
with some. The smooth cowls aren't as bad but still slope off some. What I
have demonstrated on several occasions is to do a normal stabilized approach
to landing.. on short, short final take a peek at the slip/skid ball and
center it. You'll be surprised at the alignment. Once you see it.. it
becomes clear.
Message 39
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| Subject: | The tapering cowl was Three Point vs. Wheel Landings |
07:46:00,
Serialize complete at 26/05/2005 07:46:00
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: r.thomas@za.pwc.com
Hi Lowell
I had the same problem in lining up straight down the runway having come
from C152/172, and the Kitfox being my first Taildragger.
What we eventually did was to install 'gun sights' onto the cowl. Was
actually Prestik (not sure what you guys call it in the rest of the world
- that stuff you hang your posters on the wall with). Put one blob right
up front of the cowl and one just in front of the cockpit - you do need to
calibrate them a bit to ensure correct alignment. I now use these gun
sights to sight down the runway to ensure that I am straight and not
crabbing.
Works really well, and is a great conversation piece - as I always get
asked - 'what are these for?'
Regards
Roger
"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
26/05/2005 05:31 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
Size: 7 Kb
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
The Kitfox cowl tapers toward the spinner. Most certified airplanes have
parallel cowl sides. When transitioning to the Kitfox, the typical pilot
with certified experience - my friend, the CFI - tends to try to line the
Kitfox with the side of the tapering cowl sides as he would the Cessna
with
the straight cowl sides.. The airplane then touches in a slight crab, I
think, Ed Downs says about 20 from straight.
To overcome this, While on the ground line up the airplane with a distant
object - vertical tail, vertical prop blade and the distant object. After
getting the airplane pointed at something far away, sit in the airplane
put
a mark on the windshield with a grease pencil or strip of thin tape in
line
with the distant object. Make sure this mark is always lined up with the
centerline when you land.
I think this latter technique is what saved me when we landed in the 25
mph
cross wind. I just kept the airplane lined up and did what I had to to
keep
it there, i.e. left wing low and a lot of right rudder. I am absolutely
convinced that if I had rehearsed the rules consiously, I would have had
a
very different outcome. As it worked out I had some fun keeping the wings
down level after the touch down, but we all made it. It was too windy to
fuel that night, so we helped each other tie down and fueled before
departure the next morning. This adventure happened in Jackpot, Nevada,
in
2003.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Three Point vs. Wheel Landings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: <gjglh@cebridge.net>
>
>
> Lowell,
> Explain!!
> I guess I don't get it when you say that the Kitfox does not line up
with
> the
> runway.
>
> gary
>
> On Wed May 25 9:28 , 'Lowell Fitt' <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> sent:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>
>>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" brodg@texas.net>
>>>
>>> Why "increase the throttle" after a wheel landing?
>>> That is counter to your intent (assuming you WANT to slow down). Yeah,
>>> I
>>> was taught that, too, when learning to land a taildragger (my
instructor
>>> said it was to "make it stick"). Hmmmm......
>>
>>(Snip)
>>
>>Wasn't it an instructor that lost his license due to trying to overfly
the
>>Rose Garden? I wonder how many instructors out there actually have
time
>>in
>>Kitfoxes. I think I'd wager that when instructors get together they
argue
>>the fine parts of landing etc. just like we do. For my flight review, I
>>have been up with a very experienced tail wheel instructor - lots of
>>Alaska
>>time - who absolutely can't get it that the Kitfox doesn't line up with
>>the
>>runway like other airplanes. I have actually replaced tires twice after
an
>>hour with him doing landing work, once with me and once when he was
>>checking
>>out Leo Rice.
>>
>>Instructors are great folks and very necessary at times, but sometimes,
in
>>my opinion, they are merely repeating mantras that they learned
somewhere
>>just like some A&Ps.
>>
>>Lowell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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