Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:25 AM - Doors off (Lmar)
2. 06:25 AM - Kitfox overheating (Lmar)
3. 06:48 AM - Re: Kitfox overheating (kitfox@gto.net)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Fw: Props? (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:58 AM - 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires (kitfox@gto.net)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires (Aerobatics@aol.com)
7. 08:06 AM - Re: Kitfox-Overheating (Harris, Robert)
8. 10:21 AM - Re: Kitfox overheating (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
9. 10:27 AM - Re: Kitfox overheating (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
10. 10:53 AM - Ask Don how to bleed Air Re: Kitfox overheating (Harris, Robert)
11. 11:20 AM - Re: Ask Don how to bleed Air Re: Kitfox overheating (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
12. 12:02 PM - Stick Drag (alairons) (Marwynne)
13. 12:37 PM - Re: Stick Drag (alairons) (Michel Verheughe)
14. 01:16 PM - Re: Stick Drag (alairons) (AlbertaIV@aol.com)
15. 02:27 PM - Re: Stick Drag (alairons) (kitfoxjunky)
16. 03:00 PM - Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires (Lynn Matteson)
17. 03:30 PM - Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires (Aerobatics@aol.com)
18. 05:34 PM - Re: Stick Drag (alairons) (Marwynne)
19. 06:55 PM - Re: Fw: Props? (Jimmie Blackwell)
20. 08:00 PM - Powerfin prop (Andrew Matthaey)
21. 08:19 PM - Subaru EA81 question (Clem Nichols)
22. 09:04 PM - Re: Powerfin prop (Aerobatics@aol.com)
23. 10:04 PM - Kitfox 4 sale (Alan Daniels)
24. 11:24 PM - Re: Stick Drag (alairons) (Michel Verheughe)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar <my93avid@yahoo.com>
In the summer, my doors are used only to keep the birds out while the plane is
parked. For this reason, I leave them on. I did remove them for a while but
discovered the above.
Larry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar <my93avid@yahoo.com>
Hi,
I have a Bluehead in an Avid, which runs warmer than you Parachute. I have found
that it will exceed "normal" temps on the ground, espically with the cowling
off. It is recommended that when breaking the engine in, water from a hose
is also used to spray through the rad to help cool it. The Fox will fly at
speeds to 100, which greatly assists the rad cooling, thus the smaller size.
I find it is normal that the water temps will approach 200 in a long slow climb,
but upon bringing the throttle back and getting some forward speed, it cools
down. I usually see 160F when cruising.
Of course ensure the mechanical things are checked out. If you need help there, a copy of the installation manual is available on line. ( http://www.kodiakbs.com/tiintro.htm) You did not give a great deal of information as to the conditions of the warm temps, but after considering the above, if you still think that it is hot; you may want to check out the water temp sender and gauge. Mine just started reading about 30F too hot which drove me crazy tring to figure out.
Hope this helps. Feel free to write back.
Larry
Here is a link to an engine group list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/engines-ul/
Good afternoon:
This is my first post on this list, and I am doing it for a friend. He owns
a Kitfox while I fly a Powered Parachute. We both have 582 Rotax, blue
heads. He just put this one in as he use to have the grey head.
He hits 185+ degrees coolant temp while I stay right around 155 or so. We
believe that standard working temp is 145 - 175.
So how does he get his temp down? I am very surprised at the small radiator
on the Kitfox. We bled the lines, checked out the thermostat, exchanged the
radiator cap etc. What next?
Thanks in advance for your help!
RLM / SE Minnesota
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
I was out for 90 mins this am. temp about 60F at gross and in climb
180 F level flight - 160F my rad is the standard 582 rad. and
mounted on belly. Some have lowered their rad by 1 inch and found that
a big help too. What rpm you running and speed too? A over pitched
prop can give you extra heat as well.
Kirby
This is my first post on this list, and I am doing it for a friend. He
owns
> a Kitfox while I fly a Powered Parachute. We both have 582 Rotax,
blue
> heads. He just put this one in as he use to have the grey head.
>
> He hits 185+ degrees coolant temp while I stay right around 155 or
so. We
> believe that standard working temp is 145 - 175.
>
> So how does he get his temp down? I am very surprised at the small
radiator
> on the Kitfox. We bled the lines, checked out the thermostat,
exchanged the
> radiator cap etc. What next?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> RLM / SE Minnesota
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Kirby, where did you get your 16.5x8x8 tires?
I've tried several places,(Rocky Mtn, local tire dealers, etc) and
can't seem to find them. (I'm in Michigan)
Lynn
On Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 02:04 PM, kitfox@gto.net wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
>
> Andrew, no wheel pants here, just tube gear is faired.
> I got 16.5 x 8 x 8 wheels and land off strip many times.
>
> Mud will clog up wheel pants and I prefer to not have them.
>
> You got a space over your horiz stab. ?
>
>
> Kirby
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Lynn, I think they are golf cart tires.
Work pretty good and i think a little less drag that the 18 or 20 inch
tundra tires.
Well all look for a better this or that , but some come at a expense
elsewhere.
Just gota comprimise I guess.
Kirby....
Subject: Re: Fw: Kitfox-List: Props?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Kirby, where did you get your 16.5x8x8 tires?
> I've tried several places,(Rocky Mtn, local tire dealers, etc) and
> can't seem to find them. (I'm in Michigan)
>
> Lynn
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
I found out that desser was the sourse I bought a pair...they knew exactly
what I wanted
Dave
KF2
Message 7
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| Subject: | Kitfox-Overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
That's easy to fix. He just needs to drop the radiator down a few more
inches from the belly of the aircraft. Use longer bolts with longer spacers
to accomplish this. Be sure to keep the old bolts because you will need to
raise it back up in cold weather, make a radiator flap or tape off part of
the radiator when the OAT drops.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell
Marsolek
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox-Overheating
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Russell Marsolek" <rmarsole@luminet.net>
Good afternoon:
This is my first post on this list, and I am doing it for a friend. He owns
a Kitfox while I fly a Powered Parachute. We both have 582 Rotax, blue
heads. He just put this one in as he use to have the grey head.
He hits 185+ degrees coolant temp while I stay right around 155 or so. We
believe that standard working temp is 145 - 175.
So how does he get his temp down? I am very surprised at the small radiator
on the Kitfox. We bled the lines, checked out the thermostat, exchanged the
radiator cap etc. What next?
Thanks in advance for your help!
RLM / SE Minnesota
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/2005 9:26:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
my93avid@yahoo.com writes:
through the rad to help cool it. The Fox will fly at speeds to 100, which
greatly assists the rad cooling, thus the smaller size. I find it is normal
that the water temps will approach 200 in a long slow climb, but upon
bringing the throttle back and getting some forward speed, it cools down. I usually
see 160F when cruising.
I was seeing the same temps but would panic when they temps went above 180.
I just spent many hours redesigning my engine cowl and adding a new radiator
cowl. I haven't seen hot summer days yet but think/hope I fixed the
problem. My theory was, get "MORE" air jammed into the front of the radiator.
Also, get rid of the outlet hump on the bottom pilot side of the engine cowl.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/ 582
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/2005 9:50:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, kitfox@gto.net
writes:
mounted on belly. Some have lowered their rad by 1 inch and found that
a big help too. What rpm you running and speed too? A over pitched
I temporarily lowered mine 1" and then 2" with little to no improvement. I
then lowered it 3" and moved it forward of the engine outlet then popriveted
a piece of Lexan to the bottom of the cowl to force air directly into the
radiator face. This fixed the problem but was an ugly temp fix. The redesign
I
did put all these factors in place. Time will tell. However, the OAT's in
Virginia are staying low this year. The way it looks, we may not have a
summer.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/ 582
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
582 overheating. You should also make sure you bleed all of the air out of
the cooling system. Don and others have some good methods for that.
Robert
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/2005 1:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Robert_Harris@intuit.com writes:
582 overheating. You should also make sure you bleed all of the air out of
the cooling system. Don and others have some good methods for that.
Robert
I think if it was air in the system, it would be overheating badly.
However, I bleed this way and it seems to work great.
Attach a clear 1/4" line from the fwd top head vent port and run the line
down to a clean container on the floor. Block off the fitting going to the
filler assembly so the water doesn't run all over the engine will filling with
water. Fill the system to the top with 50/50 mix and start a syphon to the
clear container on the floor. Shake the engine from side to side while keeping
the system full. Do this until you see no bubbles in the clear syphon tube.
Once clear, hook the steam vent line back up to the filler assy. Has
always worked great for me and you will be surprised at how much air you get out
of the system. BTW, before doing all this, make sure you bleed the air at the
top screw on the water pump.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/ 582
Message 12
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| Subject: | Stick Drag (alairons) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marwynne" <marwynne@verizon.net>
I found an interesting problem that I thought the group might like to hear
about. I went flying on Monday. I inspected the Kitfox IV and found the
controls were normal. I took off and the controls were normal. As I
reached cruising altitude 1500 feet, I noticed a lot of drag on the stick
when I applied alairons. I went back to the airport and landed. I didn't
find anything looked like a problem. I pulled the seat covers and removed
the fiberglass seat. I inspected the push rods and everything else I could
see ( I found nothing unusual.) I installed the fiberglass seat and covers.
I taxied the plane around and could not get the stick to have any drag.
I took a test flight around the field. I didn't have any drag on the stick.
everything seemed normal. Went back to 1500 feet and started cruising
again. The same problem reoccurred. I went back to the airport and
landed. The stick didn't have any drag and was normal on the ground after
landing.
Here is what I found. It might be worth looking at when doing your annual or
inspections. I didn't build the plane, I must had the problem and been aware
of it.
Pull your seat covers and seat out. Inspect the fiberglass seat. I found
the fiber glass had cracked in several places and had J&B weld applied to
these cracks. There were fiberglass supports that were broken loose and
repaired with J& B weld. I have been flying the plane for a few months and
it appears that these repairs were done properly. I am not sure how the
change in weight caused the seat to lower and touch the alairons push rods
and create the drag on the stick. I could push down heavily on the outside
of the pilot side seat and cause the stick to drag. I have not had any hard
landings etc which might have caused this problem
I ground all the J&B weld off and cleaned the surface of the seat. I fiber
glassed the cracks and made other fiberglass repairs. After the repairs, I
test the seat and it appears that the problem is fixed. I have had an A&P
look at the repairs and he said that was the problem.
I would recommend that you look a the fiberglass seat for cracks around the
edges where the cracks appeared and also the fiberglass gussets. If the
seat had collapsed on the pilot side and wedged the alairons it could have
been real bad.
Please note that used the term J&B weld. I don't what the product was but
it looked like J&B weld.
I hope this is of interest to some of you.
Have a great day.
Marwynne
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Stick Drag (alairons) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Marwynne wrote:
> I would recommend that you look a the fiberglass seat for cracks around the
> edges where the cracks appeared and also the fiberglass gussets.
Thanks for the tip, I will certainly do that, Marwynne. But I still fail to
understand why the drag in the stick only occured at 1,500 feet. Did I miss something?
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Stick Drag (alairons) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: AlbertaIV@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/2005 3:04:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
marwynne@verizon.net writes:
Pull your seat covers and seat out. Inspect the fiberglass seat. I found
the fiber glass had cracked in several places and had J&B weld applied to
these cracks. There
The seat breaking and causing control binding isn't a new one but is rare.
Since you have had possible seat damage, you might consider adding some
safety straps. I have two nylon straps (one under each buttock) that runs from
the top tube of the front seat bulkhead to the top tube of the seat back
bulkhead. They are wrapped around each tube and popriveted through aluminum
backing plates. The straps are pulled tight enough so they actually support the
seat pan. once you pull the seats down with tiewraps, the nylon straps tighten
up. Also put two straps on the passenger side.
Another way to add strength is by installing some extra fiberglass supports
on the seat bottom (especially if the originals are broken or repaired). You
can hot glue two pieces of 1/8" X1/4" high plywood (long as necessary)
strips to the bottom of the seat running parallel about 1/8" apart (like rail
road
tracks). Then, lay in some good epoxy resin and 2" wide tape over the
plywood and pushed down in the 1/8" gap (forms a "_M_"). Adds a lot of strength.
One last thing, many have added a little bow or bend to the control
connecting rods that run under the seat to get a little more clearance from the
seat
bottom. Just place the rods between two 4"X4" blocks on the floor and
"gently" force in a bow.
All the above can't hurt.
Don Smythe
Classic IV w/ 582
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Stick Drag (alairons) |
05:26:42 PM,
Serialize complete at 06/03/2005 05:26:42 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
About a year ago I had a similar problem that only showed up when I had a
passenger with me. I also determined it was the seat contacting the push
rods, causing friction and drag on the stick. I glassed in a small
runner onto the bottom of the seat that would contact some of the fuse
support tubes to ensure the seat could not bind the pushrods. I also used
hose clamps to ensure that the front of the seat was held firmly in place,
so it could not come off the cross tubes and then drop down to bind the
controls.
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
"Marwynne" <marwynne@verizon.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
06/03/2005 03:02 PM
Please respond to kitfox-list
To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc:
Subject: Kitfox-List: Stick Drag (alairons)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marwynne" <marwynne@verizon.net>
I found an interesting problem that I thought the group might like to hear
about. I went flying on Monday. I inspected the Kitfox IV and found the
controls were normal. I took off and the controls were normal. As I
reached cruising altitude 1500 feet, I noticed a lot of drag on the stick
when I applied alairons. I went back to the airport and landed. I didn't
find anything looked like a problem. I pulled the seat covers and removed
the fiberglass seat. I inspected the push rods and everything else I
could
see ( I found nothing unusual.) I installed the fiberglass seat and
covers.
I taxied the plane around and could not get the stick to have any drag.
I took a test flight around the field. I didn't have any drag on the
stick.
everything seemed normal. Went back to 1500 feet and started cruising
again. The same problem reoccurred. I went back to the airport and
landed. The stick didn't have any drag and was normal on the ground after
landing.
Here is what I found. It might be worth looking at when doing your annual
or
inspections. I didn't build the plane, I must had the problem and been
aware
of it.
Pull your seat covers and seat out. Inspect the fiberglass seat. I found
the fiber glass had cracked in several places and had J&B weld applied to
these cracks. There were fiberglass supports that were broken loose and
repaired with J& B weld. I have been flying the plane for a few months
and
it appears that these repairs were done properly. I am not sure how the
change in weight caused the seat to lower and touch the alairons push rods
and create the drag on the stick. I could push down heavily on the outside
of the pilot side seat and cause the stick to drag. I have not had any
hard
landings etc which might have caused this problem
I ground all the J&B weld off and cleaned the surface of the seat. I
fiber
glassed the cracks and made other fiberglass repairs. After the repairs,
I
test the seat and it appears that the problem is fixed. I have had an
A&P
look at the repairs and he said that was the problem.
I would recommend that you look a the fiberglass seat for cracks around
the
edges where the cracks appeared and also the fiberglass gussets. If the
seat had collapsed on the pilot side and wedged the alairons it could have
been real bad.
Please note that used the term J&B weld. I don't what the product was
but
it looked like J&B weld.
I hope this is of interest to some of you.
Have a great day.
Marwynne
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Ok, I''l bite....what in the world is"desser" and where? A little info,
please!
Lynn
On Friday, June 3, 2005, at 11:05 AM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
> I found out that desser was the sourse I bought a pair...they knew
> exactly
> what I wanted
>
> Dave
> KF2
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 16.5 x 8 x 8 tires |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
google the word desser
youll find it!
Dave
Message 18
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| Subject: | Stick Drag (alairons) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marwynne" <marwynne@verizon.net>
I believe when I got to crusing alt. that I relaxed more and moved around to
one side and that is when the problem occured. It was had to tell until I
got the seat out and found the cracks etc. I could actually push the seat
down next to the pilot side door and get some drag on the push rod.
See ya later
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Stick Drag (alairons)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Marwynne wrote:
> I would recommend that you look a the fiberglass seat for cracks around
the
> edges where the cracks appeared and also the fiberglass gussets.
Thanks for the tip, I will certainly do that, Marwynne. But I still fail to
understand why the drag in the stick only occured at 1,500 feet. Did I miss
something?
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jimmie Blackwell" <jablackwell@ev1.net>
Goodyear has them, 16.5x6.50x8.00 4 ply. I can get you a stock number if
you want. The ones I bought are primarily for Golf Carts and cost 18 bucks
apiece.
I have about 200 landings on mine with no problem.
Jimmie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Kitfox-List: Props?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Kirby, where did you get your 16.5x8x8 tires?
> I've tried several places,(Rocky Mtn, local tire dealers, etc) and
> can't seem to find them. (I'm in Michigan)
>
> Lynn
>
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 02:04 PM, kitfox@gto.net wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
> >
> > Andrew, no wheel pants here, just tube gear is faired.
> > I got 16.5 x 8 x 8 wheels and land off strip many times.
> >
> > Mud will clog up wheel pants and I prefer to not have them.
> >
> > You got a space over your horiz stab. ?
> >
> >
> > Kirby
> >
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" <spaghettiohead@hotmail.com>
I've decided I really want to get a Powerfin on my 'fox...Has anybody gone
from a 3-blade to a 2-blade? What I am really looking for is better cruise
performance. I can give up a little bit on climb, which I understand will
happen - but how much will I benefit in cruise?
Andrew
Message 21
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| Subject: | Subaru EA81 question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" <cnichols@scrtc.com>
Yesterday as part of the annual condition inspection on my Model IV with the NSI
EA81 firewall forward package I removed the plugs from my engine in order to
check the valve settings. All 4 plugs were tan in color with no evidence of
carbon buildup. Only 3 of the 8 valves required minor adjustment. I then reinstalled
the plugs and ran the engine for several minutes at 2000 rpm to warm
it up for a compression test. Unfortunately, I didn't pay any attention to the
plugs when I removed them this time, but later noticed that 2 of the 4 were
sooty black. (The other 2 were still tan with no soot whatsoever) Needless to
say, I don't know which plug came from which cylinder. The compression test
showed 160 psi in cylinders 1 and 2 (those toward the cockpit) and 148 pounds
in cylinders 3 and 4 at the prop end. All of the above was done with the plane
in typical tail-dragger position, so cylinders 3 and 4 were slightly higher
than 1 and 2. Also the air filter was removed from the Ellison TBI while the
engine was run and during the compression test. Obviously the difference in
compression can be due to several factors (I didn't do a wet test), but I found
it a little unusual that both cylinders toward the rear of the plane showed
exactly the same reading and both cylinders toward the front of the plane also
showed exactly the same reading but 12 pounds less than the others. I also am
puzzled by the fact that 2 of the plugs after the warmup run were sooty while
the other 2 were not. Could the unlevel position of the engine during this
time have anything to do with the above? I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Clem Nichols
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Powerfin prop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 6/3/2005 10:03:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
spaghettiohead@hotmail.com writes:
I've decided I really want to get a Powerfin on my 'fox...Has anybody gone
from a 3-blade to a 2-blade? What I am really looking for is better cruise
performance. I can give up a little bit on climb, which I understand will
happen - but how much will I benefit in cruise?
Andrew
Two blades are more effecient...but I hear not quite as smooth or quiet due
to higher tip speeds...
I have been tempted too....
I have to say, I am very happy with the IVO....
Dave KF 2 582 BH
Message 23
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
I went and looked at the model 4 that I told the group about. He wants
25K for the plane, but might consider an offer if it was close to that.
I have pictures and can give you my impressions if you e-mail me off
list. Low time 912S, 8.50 x 6 tires, cleveland wheels and brakes, grove
gear. It has not had an airworthiness inspection and still needs a
little finish work but not much. He is selling it as an unfinished
project and not a flying airplane.
Alan
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Stick Drag (alairons) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Marwynne wrote:
> I believe when I got to crusing alt. that I relaxed more and moved around to
> one side and that is when the problem occured.
Thanks, Marwynne. In the record book, I'll write: "Biological weight shift," as
it will look nicer! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
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