Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:05 AM - SV: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michel Verheughe)
2. 03:04 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (kitfox@gto.net)
3. 04:03 AM - SV: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michel Verheughe)
4. 04:04 AM - SV: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michel Verheughe)
5. 06:06 AM - Re: Cowling /Windshield seal (Dan McIntyre)
6. 06:22 AM - Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (jim cantrell)
7. 06:24 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (kitfox@gto.net)
8. 07:35 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Lowell Fitt)
9. 07:42 AM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (Don Pearsall)
10. 07:44 AM - Fuel Line Lube (Tinne maha)
11. 08:06 AM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (Hank)
12. 08:12 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (Clifford Begnaud)
13. 08:17 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (Don Pearsall)
14. 08:25 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Steve Zakreski)
15. 09:13 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com)
16. 09:46 AM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (Brett Walmsley)
17. 09:51 AM - Re: Fuselage Longerons (Guy Buchanan)
18. 09:51 AM - Re: SV: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank (Guy Buchanan)
19. 09:51 AM - Re: SV: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank (Guy Buchanan)
20. 09:55 AM - Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator (Clint Bazzill)
21. 10:08 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (Chenoweth)
22. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: matco brake pads (Marco Menezes)
23. 10:58 AM - DRE 6000 Headset For Sale (Gerns25@netscape.net)
24. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: matco brake pads (kitfoxjunky)
25. 11:03 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (flier)
26. 11:08 AM - Re: DRE 6000 Headset For Sale nice head set :-) (Aerobatics@aol.com)
27. 11:34 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Lowell Fitt)
28. 12:22 PM - Re: doors open (John King)
29. 12:42 PM - Attention New England Kitfoxes: PYM Fly in Info Aug 14th (Jay Fabian)
30. 02:34 PM - Re: Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator (Clint Bazzill)
31. 02:58 PM - Re: Fuselage Longerons (clemwehner)
32. 03:49 PM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (Glenn Horne)
33. 04:59 PM - Re: Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator (Vic Jacko)
34. 08:25 PM - Re: Fuselage Longerons (Guy Buchanan)
35. 09:02 PM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michael Gibbs)
36. 10:16 PM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (James Shumaker)
37. 10:23 PM - Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (courierboy@earthlink.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Thank you for your answers, Jim, Clem and guy.
> From: clemwehner [clemwehner@sbcglobal.net]
> If you have a computer with Flight Simulator, bring up a Cessna
Yes, I have my Kitfox modelled in the X-Plane flight simulator, Clem, and I tried
both instruments but, unfortunately, I don't see much difference. If I understand
correctly, the turn coordinator should also show a bank when e.g. sidesliping,
right? But in a coordinated turn they both show the same, correct?
> From: Guy Buchanan [bnn@nethere.com]
> And it is MUCH harder to stay upright using a T&B
> instead of an attitude indicator.
Ok, Guy. But why then Aircraft Spruce still offers T&B instruments and why are
they more expensive than a turn coordinator? Because I I think I read that the
turn coordinator has replaced the T&B on all aircraft since the 70s.
Thanks in advance,
Michel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Michel, A Turn coordinator has replaced the turn and bank indicator.
the Turn Coordinator displays the rate and quality of the roll whereas
the the T & B indicator does not show the Rate of the roll.
It it s an electric driven gyro to make avaialble in a partial IFR
panel in the case of vacuum pump failure.
I rad a few others talking about using it for IFR and All isay is good
luck without IFR training. Every year too many like to pretend they
know IFR and in fact the fatalities unfortuanatlt show the results.
Turn Coordiantor will give you a rate 1 turn in any aircraft and speed.
The Ball will tell you if you are slipping or skidding. This gives
you no referance to anything else like attitude. Next best is the
airspeed indicator. If anyone thinks they can fly IFR with just a Turn
coordinator , well i think they better wake up.
Hope this helps ,
Kirby
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
A simple question, friends:
What is the difference between a turn coordinator and a turn and bank
indicator?
Well, I know the difference about how it looks and how it works. But
what is
the practical difference when you fly and what is recommended?
Of course, with a European ultralight registered Kitfox, there is no
IFR and no
need for gyro instruments. But I know a guy who has a brand new Falcon
gauge
turn and bank indicator for sale quite cheap. It will fit the 2 1/4"
hole where
I have now my inclinometer.
After I was down to 500 feet and saw nothing through the front
windshield, in
The Netherlands, last June, I have become aware of a sudden lost of
sight of
the ground. Could that instrument help me or just give me a false
impression of safety?
I'd appreciate any comment, guys.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: kitfox@gto.net
> Hope this helps ,
Thank you for your answer, Kirby but ... no, I am sorry it doesn't help.
What you are saying is what is written everywhere: You can't fly IFR is you are
not certified to do it, in a certified IFR plane, and have enough recent training.
I know that.
My question was: If I am to have a gyro instrument in my plane, should it be a
Turn and Slip Indicator, or a Turn Coordinator?
Your answer would then be: None, because it won't help a thing if you are in IMC
condition. I agree. But as Jim points out, there are other situations that are
not real socked in IMC but where the horizon is difficult to find.
Going back to the disability to fly IFR without training, I have trained much on
a flight simulator, using only gyro compass, or Turn Coordinator, or Artificial
Horizon. I manage to, at least, keep the craft on a straight keel for a while.
The main challenge is to keep level altitude as in the simulator you don't
feel the plane going up or down, you only have your VVI to tell you.
There is, of course, a great difference between simulator and real-life: If you
are caught in IMC out there, you tend to panic, or at least, stress very much.
That will reduce your ability to coordinate your instrument readings. I know
that. But zillions of hours practicing IFR with an instructor and a hood doesn't
prepare you for the real thing, does it?
I am no superman and I know that when things will get tought, I'll have to reduce
my workload to a primary task. What will that be?
In my humble opinion, and after reading many accident reports I found on the internet,
it looks like the primary task, in any event, is to prevent the plane
to go in a stall and a spin. For as long as I fly the plane, there is a way out.
I imagine that, if I have a Turn and Slip Indicator, and concentrate on keeping
that bloody needle vertical, even if I zig-zag like a drunken sailor and end
up in a steep climb or dive, as long as keep the plane relatively straight, I'll
be flying and have control. Because, if every cloud has its silver lining,
it has also its end. Time will be my friend. I may come out of it.
I have extremely little experience in flying but, as I have sailed all my life
and often alone, I know one thing: The worse storm will be gone 24 hours later.
In many situations, the best way out is: Ride it and wait! At sea, most accidents
happen when the crew wants to abandon ship or seek shelter in dangerous
waters.
This is, of course, my very modest opinion. I would be very glad to hear from experienced
pilots.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: kitfox@gto.net
> Hope this helps ,
Thank you for your answer, Kirby but ... no, I am sorry it doesn't help.
What you are saying is what is written everywhere: You can't fly IFR is you are
not certified to do it, in a certified IFR plane, and have enough recent training.
I know that.
My question was: If I am to have a gyro instrument in my plane, should it be a
Turn and Slip Indicator, or a Turn Coordinator?
Your answer would then be: None, because it won't help a thing if you are in IMC
condition. I agree. But as Jim points out, there are other situations that are
not real socked in IMC but where the horizon is difficult to find.
Going back to the disability to fly IFR without training, I have trained much on
a flight simulator, using only gyro compass, or Turn Coordinator, or Artificial
Horizon. I manage to, at least, keep the craft on a straight keel for a while.
The main challenge is to keep level altitude as in the simulator you don't
feel the plane going up or down, you only have your VVI to tell you.
There is, of course, a great difference between simulator and real-life: If you
are caught in IMC out there, you tend to panic, or at least, stress very much.
That will reduce your ability to coordinate your instrument readings. I know
that. But zillions of hours practicing IFR with an instructor and a hood doesn't
prepare you for the real thing, does it?
I am no superman and I know that when things will get tought, I'll have to reduce
my workload to a primary task. What will that be?
In my humble opinion, and after reading many accident reports I found on the internet,
it looks like the primary task, in any event, is to prevent the plane
to go in a stall and a spin. For as long as I fly the plane, there is a way out.
I imagine that, if I have a Turn and Slip Indicator, and concentrate on keeping
that bloody needle vertical, even if I zig-zag like a drunken sailor and end
up in a steep climb or dive, as long as keep the plane relatively straight, I'll
be flying and have control. Because, if every cloud has its silver lining,
it has also its end. Time will be my friend. I may come out of it.
I have extremely little experience in flying but, as I have sailed all my life
and often alone, I know one thing: The worse storm will be gone 24 hours later.
In many situations, the best way out is: Ride it and wait! At sea, most accidents
happen when the crew wants to abandon ship or seek shelter in dangerous
waters.
This is, of course, my very modest opinion. I would be very glad to hear from experienced
pilots.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: Cowling /Windshield seal |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dan McIntyre" <danm@gangnailtruss.com>
Thanks for the answers posted regarding cowling windshield seal. Good information.
Dan Mc Intyre
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]
Subject:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by:
From: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Subject: Rubber channelRE: Kitfox-List: New Member and question
Look on page 127 of the Aircraft Spruce book or go on line and type in part
number 05-01300. I just ordered a foot of this from ACS and looks like it
should work well. I saw this type of rubber channel on another KF a few
weeks ago.
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan McIntyre
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Member and question
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dan McIntyre" <danm@gangnailtruss.com>
Just got back to work on my model IV after having been in storage for over a
year. Had career and financial problems that brought every thing to a halt.
It feels good getting back to work on N434DM. I'm about 65 to 70% complete
and I'm currently covering the wings.
I do have one question for the list, what is the best seal between the
cowling and the windscreen, can't seem to find much information about it.
Thanks
Dan Mc Intyre
Kitfox model IV, Jab 2200, N434DM
Message 6
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| Subject: | Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
Hello List,
I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing compound(Kreem)
is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading threads about this
subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can anyone remember what
the best solution is for cleaning these tanks.
Thanks in advance.
Jim Cantrell
Do not archive.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Michel,
I would suggest you take some dual hood time. Maybe a night rating?
A turn co-ordinator may help you as would a full IFR panel.
BUT
You will be amazed how litle you really know after you are intoduced to
IMC both under the hood and in real IMC. I think you will be shocked
to see the results.
Flight sims or a real simulator is a benefit in your skills but it no
way will make you ready for any flight into IMC.
Try as flight on a hazy day over a large body of water and see how fast
you get spatial dis-orientation.
I have seen far too many folks die because of over confidence and Lack
of Training.
Kirby.........
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
I added a turn coordinator for the reasons Jim mentioned. Not for
intentional flight into IMC, but rather to manage surprises. I had such a
surprise about 6 months ago. Pitch and heading can be pretty much
controlled with altimeter and compass, but keeping the wings level without
some form of gyro instrument is impossible. With the turn coordinator, at
least for short periods, the wings can be leveled and the airplane can be
controlled. Regarding the VFR pilots that can't keep the airplane flying for
more than 2 minutes in IFR conditions, the simple answer to that is
practice.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Shumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker
> <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Hi Micheal
>
> I fly with a turn and bank, which is the type of turn coordinator that has
> the little airplane in the window. I have often considered it an excess 2
> pounds of weight that sucked electricity and would never use. But I was
> wrong. Have you ever flown into a fog (haze) with the sun in your eyes?
> We have a low fog or haze at the coast here and I have been on final
> approach into Monterey and had to go restricted visibility to get through
> the glare. Yes I flew the turn coordinator, airspeed and compass to get
> underneath. We also have a thin stratus that sets up that is often less
> than 500 feet thick. There are often holes that you can almost get
> through. Again a minute on the gyro is very useful. There is no way I
> would fly into IFR weather with the slightest chop, the kitfox is too
> short coupled to keep the instruments stable. But flying IFR is not magic
> or a secret. It is a discipline that must be practiced. The weather can
> change on you quicker than your plane can fl
> y. I
> had one instance where the weather shut down during a Young Eagles flight.
> There were 3 or 4 of us that headed back and were in the pattern to land.
> I was the last in line and as soon as I landed the tower declared the
> field to be IFR. Of course I had the ground in sight the gps loaded for
> ILS landing and the gyro in my field of view so the event concluded
> without any concern or tension.
>
> Jim Shumaker
>
> Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
>
> A simple question, friends:
>
> What is the difference between a turn coordinator and a turn and bank
> indicator?
>
> Well, I know the difference about how it looks and how it works. But what
> is
> the practical difference when you fly and what is recommended?
> Of course, with a European ultralight registered Kitfox, there is no IFR
> and no
> need for gyro instruments. But I know a guy who has a brand new Falcon
> gauge
> turn and bank indicator for sale quite cheap. It will fit the 2 1/4" hole
> where
> I have now my inclinometer.
>
> After I was down to 500 feet and saw nothing through the front windshield,
> in
> The Netherlands, last June, I have become aware of a sudden lost of sight
> of
> the ground. Could that instrument help me or just give me a false
> impression of safety?
>
> I'd appreciate any comment, guys.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Jim, I am surprised that you did not find anything on this problem in the
archives. Anyway what you have in your tanks is "Kreem" originally made for
metal motorcycle tanks, not fiberglass. It was applied at the factory
without proper tank prep and therefore cracks.
The best way to get rid of it is to slosh your tank thoroughly with acetone.
It will dissolve quickly. Then you have to test your tank for leaks and
determine if you need a sealer at all. There are a few sealers that will
work if you do have a leak, like Randolph products in the Spruce catalog.
Others can chime in too. We have a few "Kreem" experts here.
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim cantrell
Subject: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks.
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
Hello List,
I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing
compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading
threads about this subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can
anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks.
Thanks in advance.
Jim Cantrell
Do not archive.
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello List,
In attempting to install my fuel line last night (1/4" ID translucent blue
polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite get the fuel line all
the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when I moisted them with a
liberal amount of saliva.
Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate or otherwise disappear &
have no detrimental effects on the tube?
Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. |
Received-SPF: none (smtp-relay.tamu.edu: domain of hank@hankseidel.com does not
designate permitted sender hosts)
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Hank <hank@hankseidel.com>
The kreem in my tanks did not dissolve quickly BTW.
On Aug 3, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Don Pearsall wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
> <donpearsall@comcast.net>
>
> Jim, I am surprised that you did not find anything on this problem
> in the
> archives. Anyway what you have in your tanks is "Kreem" originally
> made for
> metal motorcycle tanks, not fiberglass. It was applied at the factory
> without proper tank prep and therefore cracks.
>
> The best way to get rid of it is to slosh your tank thoroughly with
> acetone.
> It will dissolve quickly. Then you have to test your tank for leaks
> and
> determine if you need a sealer at all. There are a few sealers that
> will
> work if you do have a leak, like Randolph products in the Spruce
> catalog.
>
> Others can chime in too. We have a few "Kreem" experts here.
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim
> cantrell
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks.
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> Hello List,
> I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing
> compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember
> reading
> threads about this subject but can not find anything in the
> archives. Can
> anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks.
> Thanks in advance.
> Jim Cantrell
> Do not archive.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Lube |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Grant,
You should be using 5/16" ID NOT 1/4" ID.
Cliff
>
> Hello List,
>
> In attempting to install my fuel line last night (1/4" ID translucent blue
> polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite get the fuel line all
> the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when I moisted them with a
> liberal amount of saliva.
>
> Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate or otherwise disappear
> &
> have no detrimental effects on the tube?
>
> Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Grant
>
>
>
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Grant,
Normally silicone spray is used to lubricate fuel lines. It is pretty inert
and will not affect anything. But there is also nothing wrong with using
engine assembly grease (not axle grease). If the line can take gasoline, it
certainly will not be affected by lubricants.
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tinne maha
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello List,
In attempting to install my fuel line last night (1/4" ID translucent blue
polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite get the fuel line all
the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when I moisted them with a
liberal amount of saliva.
Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate or otherwise disappear &
have no detrimental effects on the tube?
Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
Message 14
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| Subject: | Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
This doesn't answer the above question, and I would more opinions of the
benefits of Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator also.
But as an aside, this inevitability of going into a death spiral within
minutes of entering a cloud is somewhat over played. Obviously if you enter
a cloud without any form of attitude indication you are in trouble. But
with an attitude indicator, and a small amount of training, anyone can learn
to fly just fine in IMC.
Michel, I suggest you consider getting an attitude indicator instead of the
turn and bank indicator. There is a movement in the IFR world to replace the
turn and bank(or turn and slip) indicator with a second electric attitude
indicator. The FAA has recently approved this switch.
Check this website out. http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/
I haven't tried it but I looked it over at Oshkosh and it is certainly
something I would put in my Kitfox if I didn't already have an attitude
indicator.
SteveZ
Calgary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: kitfox@gto.net
> Hope this helps ,
Thank you for your answer, Kirby but ... no, I am sorry it doesn't help.
What you are saying is what is written everywhere: You can't fly IFR is you
are not certified to do it, in a certified IFR plane, and have enough recent
training.
I know that.
My question was: If I am to have a gyro instrument in my plane, should it be
a Turn and Slip Indicator, or a Turn Coordinator?
Your answer would then be: None, because it won't help a thing if you are in
IMC condition. I agree. But as Jim points out, there are other situations
that are not real socked in IMC but where the horizon is difficult to find.
Going back to the disability to fly IFR without training, I have trained
much on a flight simulator, using only gyro compass, or Turn Coordinator, or
Artificial Horizon. I manage to, at least, keep the craft on a straight keel
for a while. The main challenge is to keep level altitude as in the
simulator you don't feel the plane going up or down, you only have your VVI
to tell you.
There is, of course, a great difference between simulator and real-life: If
you are caught in IMC out there, you tend to panic, or at least, stress very
much. That will reduce your ability to coordinate your instrument readings.
I know that. But zillions of hours practicing IFR with an instructor and a
hood doesn't prepare you for the real thing, does it?
I am no superman and I know that when things will get tought, I'll have to
reduce my workload to a primary task. What will that be?
In my humble opinion, and after reading many accident reports I found on the
internet, it looks like the primary task, in any event, is to prevent the
plane to go in a stall and a spin. For as long as I fly the plane, there is
a way out.
I imagine that, if I have a Turn and Slip Indicator, and concentrate on
keeping that bloody needle vertical, even if I zig-zag like a drunken sailor
and end up in a steep climb or dive, as long as keep the plane relatively
straight, I'll be flying and have control. Because, if every cloud has its
silver lining, it has also its end. Time will be my friend. I may come out
of it.
I have extremely little experience in flying but, as I have sailed all my
life and often alone, I know one thing: The worse storm will be gone 24
hours later. In many situations, the best way out is: Ride it and wait! At
sea, most accidents happen when the crew wants to abandon ship or seek
shelter in dangerous waters.
This is, of course, my very modest opinion. I would be very glad to hear
from experienced pilots.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by:
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube
Try putting the fuel line in some hot water and then putting it on. Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tinne maha
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello List,
In attempting to install my fuel line last night (1/4" ID translucent blue
polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite get the fuel line all
the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when I moisted them with a
liberal amount of saliva.
Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate or otherwise disappear &
have no detrimental effects on the tube?
Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <kitfox4@numail.org>
Aceton or MEK.
Just dump 1/2 gallon in and slosh around.
Dump it out and do again with left over 1/2 gallon.
Works great.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> Hello List,
> I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing
> compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading
> threads about this subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can
> anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks.
> Thanks in advance.
> Jim Cantrell
> Do not archive.
>
>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Longerons |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 07:23 PM 8/2/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Guy,
>
>What you might do is look at a bunch of Kitfoxes and see what is out there.
Thanks Lowell. Unfortunately we don't have that many in the area. I'll
hopefully get out to some west coast fly-ins this year to see more.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank |
indicator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> indicator
At 02:04 AM 8/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
...
>Ok, Guy. But why then Aircraft Spruce still offers T&B instruments and why
>are they more expensive than a turn coordinator?
Sorry Michel, I had my acronyms backwards. I would choose a TC over a T&B
as the "modern" alternative. The TC's in my ACS catalog are slightly
cheaper than the T&B's. I'm sure the T&B's are offered for people who want
"authentic" instruments in their classic aircraft. My opinion is that
neither of these are in any way useful to you. Both show standard rate
turns and both offer an electric backup to the vacuum (or pressure) driven
attitude indicator - useful when flying IFR. If it were my butt, and I
wanted to be able to fly through a visibility problem, I'd pay the money
and install an electric attitude indicator. ACS has them for $1044US.
TruTrak has a really cool electric AI which includes a digital directional
gyro and ball for $1095. It's a lot of money, but what you're trying to do
is extremely hazardous and so probably worth spending some extra money. (I
have pulled the TC and ASI from my panel, figuring them to be extra weight
and complexity. What will I do if I go IFR? First of all I'm VERY careful
to avoid it. But if it happens I'll spin down through it if I think
ceilings are high enough. Otherwise if I go white-out, I'll kiss my
you-know-what goodbye.)
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank |
indicator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> indicator
At 04:02 AM 8/3/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
...
>My question was: If I am to have a gyro instrument in my plane, should it
>be a Turn and Slip Indicator, or a Turn Coordinator?
>
>Your answer would then be: None, because it won't help a thing if you are
>in IMC condition. I agree. But as Jim points out, there are other
>situations that are not real socked in IMC but where the horizon is
>difficult to find.
Once the horizon's gone, you're IMC. The reason doesn't matter.
>Going back to the disability to fly IFR without training, I have trained
>much on a flight simulator, using only gyro compass, or Turn Coordinator,
>or Artificial Horizon. I manage to, at least, keep the craft on a straight
>keel for a while. The main challenge is to keep level altitude as in the
>simulator you don't feel the plane going up or down, you only have your
>VVI to tell you.
>There is, of course, a great difference between simulator and real-life:
>If you are caught in IMC out there, you tend to panic, or at least, stress
>very much. That will reduce your ability to coordinate your instrument
>readings.
Pressure is only a small part of the problem, and you're right,
there is a great difference between simulator and real life, though sim
time is extremely useful in understanding the mechanics of what you're
trying to do. The big problem with a fixed base simulator is that it
doesn't move. When you fly IFR, either actual or under the hood, your
vestibular system transmits erroneous signals to your brain causing you to
think you're turning, flying straight, climbing, descending, doing barrel
rolls, loops, etc. while the instruments show you doing something entirely
different. The early stages of IFR training teach you to suppress
EVERYTHING but what you see on the instruments. It can be quite hard to do.
It isn't an understanding of methodology that causes the VFR pilot to drop
out in 2 minutes - every VFR pilot in the States has some instrument
training. It's the inability to suppress their feelings in deference to
what's seen on the instruments.
>I know that. But zillions of hours practicing IFR with an instructor and a
>hood doesn't prepare you for the real thing, does it?
It does if you're honest and don't cheat around the hood.
>I am no superman and I know that when things will get tought, I'll have to
>reduce my workload to a primary task. What will that be?
>
>In my humble opinion, and after reading many accident reports I found on
>the internet, it looks like the primary task, in any event, is to prevent
>the plane to go in a stall and a spin.
Actually a stall and spin might save your life. The primary result
of disorientation in IMC is the "death spiral" where the plane is allowed,
because of neglect, to start a slow turn. The pilot sees the resulting loss
of altitude and pulls up. This tightens the turn. Since most aircraft are
only marginally stable in roll, the aircraft continues to roll slowly while
the pilot continues to pull and tighten the turn. The result is either
structural failure through pulling the wings off or flutter, or driving
into the ground at high speed.
The cure is simple - roll wings level. Why don't they do it?
Because the initial roll into the turn was done so slow the ears didn't
pick it up. When the pilot notices it on the AI and rolls wings level,
their ears scream that they're now in a turn. Un-trained pilots believe
their vestibular system and roll back into the original turn, which "feels"
right. Thus the death spiral.
Guy
Message 20
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| Subject: | Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
The two instruments are identical in there purpose. They both indicate rate
of turn and not bank angle. The turn coordinator shows a little airplane
and indicataes wings not level when turning. The turn & bank shows a
vertical needle and indicates the direction of turn and how fast. I had a
turn coordinator in my origional panel. I changed it out to a (needle &
ball) later so I would have room to put in a artifical horiz. Had room only
for a 2 inch instrument. The turn and bank does have a 2 inch version, just
cost a little more. Hope this helps. Clint
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Lube |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
Grant,
I certainly had the same problem. I got rid of all the 5/16 flexible lines
and the 1/4 lines created the same problem for me that you're finding. The
solution I found was to heat the part of the line that was to go over the
fitting in some really hot water. Then it goes on "easily". Regards the
blue stuff, Lockwood recommends Tygothane and that's what I'm gradually
switching to.
Bill
IV-1200 582-99
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
> Hello List,
>
> In attempting to install my fuel line last night (1/4" ID translucent blue
> polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite get the fuel line all
> the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when I moisted them with a
> liberal amount of saliva.
>
> Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate or otherwise disappear
&
> have no detrimental effects on the tube?
>
> Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
> Thanks,
>
> Grant
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: matco brake pads |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
I recently purchased a rebuild kit for a Matco model 1 master cylinder, on-line,
direct from the manufacturer. They seem to have parts and .pdf file schematics
for everyting Matco ever made. Delivered by mail within a week. I think the
website is matcomfg.com. If that's not it, search on Matco Manufacturing. They're
easy to find and good to deal with.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 - 582 N99KX
Maiden flight this coming Saturday!!
John Stoner <john@dakotacubaircraft.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Stoner"
Hi John,
The brakes on my Modell III are identified in my builders manual as Matco #
LBRH-12R.
I looked on the Matco web page, matcomfg.com, and could not find any
reference to this model number.
I think the old Matco Co. closed down or something, and the new Matco
started up in 2000.
Good luck with your search, and please post your results. More of us will
be needing pad replacements in the future.
Regards,
John Stoner
KF III, 582
---------------------------------
Message 23
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| Subject: | DRE 6000 Headset For Sale |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gerns25@netscape.net
I have a DRE 6000 headset for sale. This set has a total of 9 hours of use and
was purchased last Monday (7/25/05). It is in brand new condition and includes
everything that comes with the set in the original box. As many will attest,
this is best headset for the money. It is in perfect working condition. The reason
I am selling it is because I bought it as a B-day present for myself and
hadn't bothered letting my wife know, well, she had decided to get me the headset
I have always wanted (a Bose) as a surprise (and a big surprise it was!) I
don't need both so I have decided to keep the Bose and sell this one, does anyone
blame me? $280 shipped to the lower 48. Paypal is the preferred method of
payment.
Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: matco brake pads |
Serialize complete at 08/03/2005 01:58:53 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
Here is the contact info for the new Matco. George has been very helpful
in the past. Very knowledgeable too.
MATCOmfg <tech@matcomfg.com>
George R. Happ
MATCO mfg
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line Lube |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Ensure the tubing is warm. Stick a pair of needle
nose pliers in and stretch it then immediately slip
it over the fitting. Be quick as it returns to shape
quick.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
<tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
>Hello List,
>
>In attempting to install my fuel line last night
(1/4" ID translucent blue
>polyethylene line from A/C Spruce), I couldn't quite
get the fuel line all
>the way over the barbed fittings. Same result when
I moisted them with a
>liberal amount of saliva.
>
>Does anyone know of a lubricant that will evaporate
or otherwise disappear &
>have no detrimental effects on the tube?
>
>Any experience or suggestions appreciated.
>
Thanks,
>
>Grant
>
>
>_-
======================================================
======
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
List
>_-
======================================================
======
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: DRE 6000 Headset For Sale nice head set :-) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 8/3/2005 1:01:04 PM Central Daylight Time,
Gerns25@netscape.net writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gerns25@netscape.net
I have a DRE 6000 headset for sale. This set has a total of 9 hours of use
and was purchased last Monday (7/25/05). It is in brand new condition and
includes everything that comes with the set in the original box. As many will
attest, this is best headset for the money. It is in perfect working condition.
The reason I am selling it is because I bought it as a B-day present for
myself and hadn't bothered letting my wife know, well, she had decided to get
me
the headset I have always wanted (a Bose) as a surprise (and a big surprise
it was!) I don't need both so I have decided to keep the Bose and sell this
one, does anyone blame me? $280 shipped to the lower 48. Paypal is the
preferred method of payment.
Buts only 9.99 less than retail.... ? but looks like a great headset :-)
Congrats on the Bose!!
Dave
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Michel,
My opinion is somewhat different than Kirby's. I would definitely add the
Turn Coordinator. It has the ability to help you keep the wings level,
which a turn and bank does not. The turn and bank will tell you if you are
in a turn, but gives no indication of whether the wings are level or not.
As was mentioned, the turn coodinator is used as a back up IFR instrument in
the case of vacuum failure and will sustain a pilot in IFR conditions. But
you need to practice with it. To me IFR rated means a lot of knowledge
about approaches, altitudes, ATC procedures etc. Flying through
unintentional IFR conditions to safety can be readily done with a turn
coordinator, altimeter and compass. I suspect having spent as much time as
you have on your simulator where everything is visual rather than sensory,
you will find that your are already quite well prepared to handle those
conditions as long as you have the equipment to give the visual reference to
what the airplane is doing.
Don't just put one on the airplane and forget it until you need it though.
Take someone up as an observer and practice with a hood. Learn how to use
it.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
>> From: kitfox@gto.net
>> Hope this helps ,
>
> Thank you for your answer, Kirby but ... no, I am sorry it doesn't help.
> What you are saying is what is written everywhere: You can't fly IFR is
> you are not certified to do it, in a certified IFR plane, and have enough
> recent training.
>
> I know that.
>
> My question was: If I am to have a gyro instrument in my plane, should it
> be a Turn and Slip Indicator, or a Turn Coordinator?
>
> Your answer would then be: None, because it won't help a thing if you are
> in IMC condition. I agree. But as Jim points out, there are other
> situations that are not real socked in IMC but where the horizon is
> difficult to find.
>
> Going back to the disability to fly IFR without training, I have trained
> much on a flight simulator, using only gyro compass, or Turn Coordinator,
> or Artificial Horizon. I manage to, at least, keep the craft on a straight
> keel for a while. The main challenge is to keep level altitude as in the
> simulator you don't feel the plane going up or down, you only have your
> VVI to tell you.
> There is, of course, a great difference between simulator and real-life:
> If you are caught in IMC out there, you tend to panic, or at least, stress
> very much. That will reduce your ability to coordinate your instrument
> readings. I know that. But zillions of hours practicing IFR with an
> instructor and a hood doesn't prepare you for the real thing, does it?
>
> I am no superman and I know that when things will get tought, I'll have to
> reduce my workload to a primary task. What will that be?
>
> In my humble opinion, and after reading many accident reports I found on
> the internet, it looks like the primary task, in any event, is to prevent
> the plane to go in a stall and a spin. For as long as I fly the plane,
> there is a way out.
> I imagine that, if I have a Turn and Slip Indicator, and concentrate on
> keeping that bloody needle vertical, even if I zig-zag like a drunken
> sailor and end up in a steep climb or dive, as long as keep the plane
> relatively straight, I'll be flying and have control. Because, if every
> cloud has its silver lining, it has also its end. Time will be my friend.
> I may come out of it.
>
> I have extremely little experience in flying but, as I have sailed all my
> life and often alone, I know one thing: The worse storm will be gone 24
> hours later. In many situations, the best way out is: Ride it and wait! At
> sea, most accidents happen when the crew wants to abandon ship or seek
> shelter in dangerous waters.
>
> This is, of course, my very modest opinion. I would be very glad to hear
> from experienced pilots.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 28
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Michel,
It was on the first Alaska trip in 1998 and I was flying about 3/4 mile
behind Jim Chapman in his Model IV. I was too far away to see his door
on the passenger side open, but I saw what looked like a couple of big
white birds flying near him. After I approached the birds, I could see
that they were his Alaska charts unfolding in his prop wash.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
Michel Verheughe wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
>John King wrote:
>
>
>>I have also seen charts depart the aircraft.
>>
>>
>
>... Gosh! Have you been spying om me again, John? :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Attention New England Kitfoxes: PYM Fly in Info Aug 14th |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" <experimental208nd@comcast.net>
Hi List,
OPEN INVITATION TO ALL!
EAA UL-62 chapter at Plymouth Mass (PYM). Will be having its annual Fly-in Barbeque
on Sunday , August 14th. Start Time is Noon.
The Theme plane is the RV series, but We have had the Kitfox featured a few years
ago too. We have 7 Kitfoxes in our chapter alone.
Special Guest is : John McBean , Formally of Skystar.
Sirloin Burgers ( The kind without the bone chunks in it), Hot Dogs, and more.....
GPS Raffle.
I know there are many kitfoxes in the area, so come on over. I am pulling my kitfox,
and myself out of mothballs and getting it inspected as we speak.
Hope to see you there,
Jay Fabian , Editor EAA UL-62
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Another test to prove that the Turn Coordinator and Turn and Bank are rate
instruments.
When flying straight and level kick right rudder. What happens is the
needle on the turn and bank will move right that there was a change in the
vertical axis. Drop the left wing and continue in a forward slip. The
needle will recenter. The same thing will happen with the turn coordinator,
the little airplane wing will indicate a bank to the right and then go level
when the vertical axis moment stops.
These instruments work on gyro precession and theyt do not I repeat do
indicate bank (wing position) information.
Again, the two instruments are identical in operation. Buy the cheapest.
Clilnt
I think one or the other is very important in all airplanes. You will see
the turn and bank in almost all airplanes. Clint
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
<clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
The two instruments are identical in there purpose. They both indicate rate
of turn and not bank angle. The turn coordinator shows a little airplane
and indicataes wings not level when turning. The turn & bank shows a
vertical needle and indicates the direction of turn and how fast. I had a
turn coordinator in my origional panel. I changed it out to a (needle &
ball) later so I would have room to put in a artifical horiz. Had room only
for a 2 inch instrument. The turn and bank does have a 2 inch version, just
cost a little more. Hope this helps. Clint
Message 31
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| Subject: | Fuselage Longerons |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "clemwehner" <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
Guy,
I built a model IV and helped with two others. All of them had bowed
longerons even before covering, so it's just normal. If you look
closely you may find others things that aren't to your liking about the
welding. For example, my tailpost is curved about 1/2 inch over its
length, making fitting the rudder a problem. Also my right wing is 1/2
inch further forward than the left, and my door frames are not the same
shape (I learned that while trying to get the doors to fit). But like
someone said on this list about ten years ago, we're not building
F-16's, so don't get too worried. If yours is like the others, and the
others have been flying for years, then you are in good shape.
Regards,
Clem
Lawton, Oklahoma
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Glenn Horne" <glennflys@verizon.net>
Slosh with acetone a pour out. Need about three good flushing.
That the was I cleaned mine.
Glenn-Model II 582
----- Original Message -----
From: "jim cantrell" <jcant1@direcway.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks.
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> Hello List,
> I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing
> compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading
> threads about this subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can
> anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks.
> Thanks in advance.
> Jim Cantrell
> Do not archive.
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Vic Jacko" <vicwj@earthlink.net>
Speaking of the small 2 and 1/4 inch Turn coordinator I have a Mitchel
for sale. Please contact off list if interested.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clint Bazzill" <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Turn & Bank vrs Turn Coordinator
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
> <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>
>
> The two instruments are identical in there purpose. They both indicate
> rate
> of turn and not bank angle. The turn coordinator shows a little airplane
> and indicataes wings not level when turning. The turn & bank shows a
> vertical needle and indicates the direction of turn and how fast. I had a
> turn coordinator in my origional panel. I changed it out to a (needle &
> ball) later so I would have room to put in a artifical horiz. Had room
> only
> for a 2 inch instrument. The turn and bank does have a 2 inch version,
> just
> cost a little more. Hope this helps. Clint
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Fuselage Longerons |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 02:58 PM 8/3/2005, you wrote:
...
>But like
>someone said on this list about ten years ago, we're not building
>F-16's, so don't get too worried. If yours is like the others, and the
>others have been flying for years, then you are in good shape.
Thanks Clem.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Michel asks:
>What is the difference between a turn coordinator and a turn and
>bank indicator?
Jim was sloppy with his terminology, Michel. A Turn & Bank Indicator
is not a Turn Coordinator, as you know. Typically a Turn & Bank has
a rather blank face with a vertical needle and, of course, a
slip/skid ball at the bottom. The needle is attached to a
vertically-oriented gyro such that it shows the rate of turn (yaw)
or, basically, the change in heading with respect to time.
The Turn Coordinator is a more modern "improvement" on the Turn &
Bank. Turn Coordinators typically (unfortunately) have a small
airplane depicted on the face which rolls left or right to indicate
the rate of turn. This misleads some pilots into thinking it is
providing roll information when, in fact, it does not. In a Turn
Coordinator the gyro axis is tilted forward somewhat so that it
responds to both changes in roll attitude and changes in yaw. The
"improvement" here is that a Turn Coordinator responds to a turn much
more quickly than a Turn & Bank because a turn typically begins with
a roll into the direction of the turn--but it still only depicts yaw
rate.
I installed a Turn & Bank in my first 'fox because I wanted all my
instruments to be 2-1/4 inch and I could not find a Turn Coordinator
in that size for love or money. I prefer a Turn Coordinator due to
the faster response time--it allows you to recognize an unintended
turn or roll more quickly and therefore correct it sooner. I wanted
a gyro instrument in the plane in the event that I ever inadvertently
found myself without a view of the horizon I could, hopefully, get
myself back out. That said, an attitude indicator is far superior to
a Turn Coordinator for keeping the greasy side down.
My comments should be taken in context: I am instrument rated and I
maintain my instrument proficiency through regular practice under a
hood with a safety pilot or CFII. Flying in instrument conditions is
challenging even for someone properly trained and equipped.
From an IFR standpoint, what has been mentioned by others is
absolutely true: you can kill yourself in no time at all if you are
not proficient at reading the instruments and controlling the
airplane based on them. The solution is to put on a hood and get
with a safety pilot or instructor and practice, practice, practice.
I DO believe you can increase your odds beyond what the raw
statistics might indicate.
Sorry for being so long-winded.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Micheal
Michael Gibbs gave an excelllent overview of the instruments. Thankyou for clarifying
things Michael. It brings to mind an incident I had with a builder in
our EAA Chapter. My friend Peter is building a plane but he has no pilots license
and very little airplane time. We flew to an airshow in my Kitfox and of
course I let him fly. Of course he tended to wander a little and so I would
remind him to level the wings and put the nose back on the destination. Usually
the little wandering settles down after a while as the student gets used to
the controls. But for some reason the wandering got worse and worse. One wing
was always a foot or two higher than the other and the nose was constantly
drifting. Finally I gave up and took over the controls. A while later Peter
informed me that my instruments were of poor quality and very much out of adjustment.
Puzzled, I asked him what instruments he was talking about. After all,
this was VFR and the only instrument we had discu
ssed was
the airspeed indicator with sometimes a glance to the GPS. My turn Coordinator
and slip/skid ball were not working he said.
I was dumbfounded. What was he looking at those for? We had not discussed them
and I had never referred to them in regards to his flight control. It finally
dawned on me that he was using the turn coordinator to level the wings and
the rudders the center the ball and wasn't watching the heading at all. As soon
as I convered the Turn Coordinator with my hand he flew a fine plane straight
and level. (As you know, in the model III roll input without rudder input
will cause a roll with no yaw in the direction of the turn. Therefore the turn
coordinato does not move.)
So yes, maybe there is a case for not putting a gyro in a plane until you have
had some training at it.
Jim Shumaker
Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs
Michel asks:
>What is the difference between a turn coordinator and a turn and
>bank indicator?
Jim was sloppy with his terminology, Michel. A Turn & Bank Indicator
is not a Turn Coordinator, as you know. Typically a Turn & Bank has
a rather blank face with a vertical needle and, of course, a
slip/skid ball at the bottom. The needle is attached to a
vertically-oriented gyro such that it shows the rate of turn (yaw)
or, basically, the change in heading with respect to time.
The Turn Coordinator is a more modern "improvement" on the Turn &
Bank. Turn Coordinators typically (unfortunately) have a small
airplane depicted on the face which rolls left or right to indicate
the rate of turn. This misleads some pilots into thinking it is
providing roll information when, in fact, it does not. In a Turn
Coordinator the gyro axis is tilted forward somewhat so that it
responds to both changes in roll attitude and changes in yaw. The
"improvement" here is that a Turn Coordinator responds to a turn much
more quickly than a Turn & Bank because a turn typically begins with
a roll into the direction of the turn--but it still only depicts yaw
rate.
I installed a Turn & Bank in my first 'fox because I wanted all my
instruments to be 2-1/4 inch and I could not find a Turn Coordinator
in that size for love or money. I prefer a Turn Coordinator due to
the faster response time--it allows you to recognize an unintended
turn or roll more quickly and therefore correct it sooner. I wanted
a gyro instrument in the plane in the event that I ever inadvertently
found myself without a view of the horizon I could, hopefully, get
myself back out. That said, an attitude indicator is far superior to
a Turn Coordinator for keeping the greasy side down.
My comments should be taken in context: I am instrument rated and I
maintain my instrument proficiency through regular practice under a
hood with a safety pilot or CFII. Flying in instrument conditions is
challenging even for someone properly trained and equipped.
From an IFR standpoint, what has been mentioned by others is
absolutely true: you can kill yourself in no time at all if you are
not proficient at reading the instruments and controlling the
airplane based on them. The solution is to put on a hood and get
with a safety pilot or instructor and practice, practice, practice.
I DO believe you can increase your odds beyond what the raw
statistics might indicate.
Sorry for being so long-winded.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 37
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| Subject: | Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: courierboy@earthlink.net
Guy -
You are right about this - and the FAA demonstrates it real well with
their "Vertigon". Have you seen it? This is a fully enclosed flight
simulator which moves about two axes - pitch and yaw. The Vertigon
allows VFR pilots such as myself the chance to enter simulated IMC to
see how we respond to instrument flight WITH accompanying inner ear
stimulation.
When you get settled into this simulator, the FAA guy places a
quarter on the floor and says "reach down and pick this up after you
get established in IMC" then he closes the door. After you have
"taken off" (VFR at dusk, complying with ATC instructions,
established in a climbing turn) you lose your horizon completely as
it fades to black in about five seconds. At this point I'm
"tentatively" established on the instruments and feeling "ok". That
was my cue to reach down and pick up the quarter. WHOA ! ! - I felt
like I'd been poleaxed when I got upright - I never imagined how
disorienting that could be. I did not lose control but my excursions
were "pronounced" shall we say and it took a bit to settle down. The
sensation was so overwhelming it took lots of mental effort to block
it out - it was a matter of will power to stay on the instruments.
The "unusual attitude recoveries" practiced under the hood during my
private pilot training didn't come close to preparing me for this
extreme disorientation.
To all:
If the "Vertigon" comes to your area do not miss a chance to fly it.
Also if anyone stumbles into IMC don't do any fast head movements -
it will tumble YOUR gyros.
Bill
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> indicator
---------------------snip----------------------
>The big problem with a fixed base simulator is that it
>doesn't move. When you fly IFR, either actual or under the hood, your
>vestibular system transmits erroneous signals to your brain causing you to
>think you're turning, flying straight, climbing, descending, doing barrel
>rolls, loops, etc. while the instruments show you doing something entirely
>different. The early stages of IFR training teach you to suppress
>EVERYTHING but what you see on the instruments. It can be quite hard to do.
>It isn't an understanding of methodology that causes the VFR pilot to drop
>out in 2 minutes - every VFR pilot in the States has some instrument
>training. It's the inability to suppress their feelings in deference to
>what's seen on the instruments.
--------------------------------snip-----------------------
> The cure is simple - roll wings level. Why don't they do it?
>Because the initial roll into the turn was done so slow the ears didn't
>pick it up. When the pilot notices it on the AI and rolls wings level,
>their ears scream that they're now in a turn. Un-trained pilots believe
>their vestibular system and roll back into the original turn, which "feels"
>right. Thus the death spiral.
>
>Guy
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