---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/04/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:29 AM - Turn coordin commets from M Gibb (kitfox@gto.net) 2. 04:49 AM - SV: Turn coordin commets from M Gibb (Michel Verheughe) 3. 06:31 AM - Yaw control WAS: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michel Verheughe) 4. 06:51 AM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. (owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com) 5. 08:36 AM - What Does IMC stand for?Re: Turn coordinator vs. (owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com) 6. 08:53 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Kerry Skyring) 7. 08:53 AM - Re: Fuel Line Lube (kitfoxjunky) 8. 08:58 AM - Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks (jim cantrell) 9. 10:39 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank (Jim Carriere) 10. 11:12 AM - Re: (Gerns25@netscape.net) 11. 11:23 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Hank) 12. 07:48 PM - Series 7 near Dayton, Ohio (Steve Daum) 13. 09:14 PM - Brian O'Neil (Andy Fultz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:47 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Turn coordin commets from M Gibb From: kitfox@gto.net --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net Michael Brillant summary!! We Think alike, I certainly hope others can understand and try the hood time idea. Everyone is a great pilot but over confidence and/or lack of training has taken too many lives to argue otherwise. Until you have done it, most have no idea what IMC is really like. I know alot have prolly never done a spin, spiral or unusal attitudes in VFR flight, now try it in IMC. Enough said. Kirby ........ From an IFR standpoint, what has been mentioned by others is > absolutely true: you can kill yourself in no time at all if you are > not proficient at reading the instruments and controlling the > airplane based on them. The solution is to put on a hood and get > with a safety pilot or instructor and practice, practice, practice. > I DO believe you can increase your odds beyond what the raw > statistics might indicate. > > Sorry for being so long-winded. > > Mike G. > N728KF Michel, I would suggest you take some dual hood time. Maybe a night rating? A turn co-ordinator may help you as would a full IFR panel. BUT You will be amazed how litle you really know after you are intoduced to IMC both under the hood and in real IMC. I think you will be shocked to see the results. Flight sims or a real simulator is a benefit in your skills but it no way will make you ready for any flight into IMC. Try as flight on a hazy day over a large body of water and see how fast you get spatial dis-orientation. I have seen far too many folks die because of over confidence and Lack of Training. Kirby......... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:31 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Turn coordin commets from M Gibb --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: kitfox@gto.net > Michael Brillant summary!! I AGREE! (note that I seldom user uppercase but, this time, it was called for! :-) Thank you, everyone who answered my question about the two instruments, both on this list and privately. It is much appreciated and I am proud to be among such a gathering of fine airmen ... and friends! But Mikey boy gets the first price for answering what I couldn't figure out: What's the difference between the two. His answer is clear: The Turn Coordinator (with the little plane), because of its 30 degrees tilt, also feels the >>>bank rate<<< in addition of the turn rate and therefore responds more to short movements since - as the man says - any turn starts with a bank. Unfortunately I am not ready to make a 3 1/8 hole in my panel and I will go for the Turn & Bank Indicator, which I can buy for a bargain price, here in Norway. Now, and to reasure you all, I am only a European Ultralight pilot and I will never fly IFR, at night, or even "on top," as it is forbidden for us. So the instrument is virtually useless if it isn't that it may (and I hope I'll never need its use) help me in a difficult situation. Although I have very little experience, at 4,000 ft, over the water, on a hazy day, the horizon tend to fade away. It is not IMC but it is maybe the time to appreciate a gyroscopic instrument. I also understand that my instrument won't be of any use, at all, if I don't practice the use of it. I will, and I look forward to do that. In the plane, with a hood and a co-pilot, and on the simulator. For one thing: Before being a real-life pilot, I was a simulator enthusiast (a.k.a. simmer) for several years. You have to know those guys, they love aviation and suck in just anything related to it. Some don't fly for real because they can't afford it, and some would like to but feel simulation is safer. But all feel that training is the best. Trying to do like the "big guys." Repeat and repeat procedures until it sits like a second nature. I love that. I am very much aware that being in IMC for real is quite different than training. I cannot say how I will react because I haven't been there. But I know enough to say that I have to be prepared and have a plan before it happens. Then I need to stick to the plan that is one, and only one first task. In my opinion, it must be: Keep the plane straight! If I can add something to this discussion, I would say only this: Confess! The third C of the four Cs rule is important. When I was no longer in VFR condition in The Netherlands, I didn't hesitate to state it to the controller. The guy (gal) is there to help you. Informing him (her) before the s**t hits the fan may prepare for further action if say, SAR should be necessary. Reading about accident reports, I am always surprised to see that, in most of the cases, no radio contact was established. In some case (like Mike! :-( one doesn't have the time to say anything. But in many cases, problems occur progressively. As we say in French: "Le ridicule ne tue pas" (No one was ever killed by being ridiculous), so, push the button and talk to the guy! Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:17 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Yaw control WAS: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: James Shumaker [jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net] > So yes, maybe there is a case for not putting a gyro in a plane until you have had > some training at it. Very interesting story, Jim, and I know exactly what you mean. Have you tried this: Get a passenger that has no previous experience, show how the stick works and let him/her fly the plane while you take care of the pedals and throttle. Darn difficult! Because when your passenger try to turn say right by banking, you need to be very quick to push the right pedal otherwise you're out of sync with him/her and you end up with crossed control most of the time. But, don't worry, I'll continue to fly visual, only glancing now and then at the instrument to get acquainted. Until I am ready for hood training, preferably with my son. I look forward to that. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:27 AM PST US From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: From: "Napier, Mark" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. Hey Jim, I re-Kreemed my tank this year. It is in a KFIII build in 1992. The original Kreem dissolved quickly in acetone. Get enough in the tank that you are sure it covers the surfaces. It's quite a job working it in a 10-foot wing. Best price for the new Kreem was two quart containers from Jack's Small Engines, Kreem 32 oz Can, 6718003, 410-692-6300. Make sure it is IN STOCK before you order. I found that this new Kreem did not completely dissolve in acetone. I didn't take my screen out first and had a heck of a time cleaning it out. Even MEK wouldn't completely remove it. EZ-Turn (Fuel Lube) did a good job sealing all the threaded fittings back into the tank. Cheers, Mark Napier Time: 07:42:18 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" Jim, I am surprised that you did not find anything on this problem in the archives. Anyway what you have in your tanks is "Kreem" originally made for metal motorcycle tanks, not fiberglass. It was applied at the factory without proper tank prep and therefore cracks. The best way to get rid of it is to slosh your tank thoroughly with acetone. It will dissolve quickly. Then you have to test your tank for leaks and determine if you need a sealer at all. There are a few sealers that will work if you do have a leak, like Randolph products in the Spruce catalog. Others can chime in too. We have a few "Kreem" experts here. Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim cantrell Subject: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell Hello List, I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading threads about this subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks. Thanks in advance. Jim Cantrell Do not archive. - - - - - - - Appended by Scientific-Atlanta, Inc. - - - - - - - This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible for delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:56 AM PST US From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: From: "Harris, Robert" Tur n and bank indicator Subject: What Does IMC stand for?RE: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Tur n and bank indicator Do IMC conditions cause motion sickness in pilots? And what does IMC stand for? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:12 AM PST US From: "Kerry Skyring" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" Someone wrote... If anyone thinks they can fly IFR with just a Turn coordinator , well i think they better wake up. Well my old instructor could and he never held an instrument rating in his life. Of course he wasn't just using the T&B. He was using the altimeter, compass and turn and bank coordinator. And he made his students practice it as well and because I was young and quick to learn back then I also learnt to make a 360 degree turn on "basic panel." It is, as many have said, a matter of practice. It's in the scan and the discipline of following the instruments and ignoring your senses. I'm not sure I could do it now and I certainly steer clear of IFR but I do understand the principles and pilots should not be put off from gaining new skills and knowledge (and instruments) that may save their skin. On a completely different note - we called the Turn and Bank - the Bat and Ball - no prizes for guessing that I come from a nation which is obsessed with cricket. Kerry And thanks to Michael Gibbs for the great explanation of the the instruments. I actually didn't understand that the AH - Artificial Horizon - is just a fancy Bat and Ball. > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:30 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Line Lube Serialize complete at 08/04/2005 11:53:19 AM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Not sure your engine configuration..but if you are working with a Rotax 912 type engine...keep in mind that the fuel lines going into and out of the fuel pump are different diameters..one being 5/16" and the other 1/4". Gary Walsh C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:45 AM PST US From: jim cantrell Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell Thanks Mark for the info, I have not installed my tanks in the wings yet, I want to get them clean and in shape before mounting into the wing. Where do I find the EZ-Turn fuel lube? Jim Cantrell Series 5 TD 60%. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: > > From: "Napier, Mark" > To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'" > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. > Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 09:48:43 -0400 > > Hey Jim, > > I re-Kreemed my tank this year. It is in a KFIII build in 1992. The > original Kreem dissolved quickly in acetone. > > Get enough in the tank that you are sure it covers the surfaces. It's quite > a job working it in a 10-foot wing. > > Best price for the new Kreem was two quart containers from Jack's Small > Engines, Kreem 32 oz Can, 6718003, 410-692-6300. Make sure it is IN STOCK > before you order. > > I found that this new Kreem did not completely dissolve in acetone. I > didn't take my screen out first and had a heck of a time cleaning it out. > Even MEK wouldn't completely remove it. > > EZ-Turn (Fuel Lube) did a good job sealing all the threaded fittings back > into the tank. > > Cheers, > > Mark Napier > > > Time: 07:42:18 AM PST US > From: "Don Pearsall" > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > Jim, I am surprised that you did not find anything on this problem in the > archives. Anyway what you have in your tanks is "Kreem" originally made for > metal motorcycle tanks, not fiberglass. It was applied at the factory > without proper tank prep and therefore cracks. > > The best way to get rid of it is to slosh your tank thoroughly with acetone. > It will dissolve quickly. Then you have to test your tank for leaks and > determine if you need a sealer at all. There are a few sealers that will > work if you do have a leak, like Randolph products in the Spruce catalog. > > Others can chime in too. We have a few "Kreem" experts here. > > Don Pearsall > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jim cantrell > Subject: Kitfox-List: Removal of sloshing compound in wing tanks. > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > Hello List, > I have a pair of new wing tanks that are 10 years old, the sloshing > compound(Kreem) is cracking and falling of the inside. I remember reading > threads about this subject but can not find anything in the archives. Can > anyone remember what the best solution is for cleaning these tanks. > Thanks in advance. > Jim Cantrell > Do not archive. > > > - - - - - - - Appended by Scientific-Atlanta, Inc. - - - - - - - > This e-mail and any attachments may contain information which is confidential, proprietary, privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the named addressee (or a person responsible for delivering it to the addressee). If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and delete it from your computer. > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:17 AM PST US From: Jim Carriere Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Carriere > From: Michael Gibbs > From an IFR standpoint, what has been mentioned by others is > absolutely true: you can kill yourself in no time at all if you > are > not proficient at reading the instruments and controlling the > airplane based on them. The solution is to put on a hood and get > with a safety pilot or instructor and practice, practice, > practice. > I DO believe you can increase your odds beyond what the raw > statistics might indicate. > > Sorry for being so long-winded. Michael, long winded but with a purpose. Your writeup about flying the aircraft soley on instrumens is spot on. Not to be preachy or anal myself, but look at VFR flying from a decision making, legal, and safety perspective: If a VFR pilot finds themself in a corner because of declining weather, they have made a mistake or mistakes to get there, possibly beginning with taking off in the first place. Everyone makes mistakes, so you have a little instrument training and having gyro instruments in a VFR only aircraft. Legally, VFR has visibility and cloud clearance requirements. This is so when you are flying VFR, you can see IFR aircraft in time to maneuver and avoid them. If you are in clouds, you won't see other aircraft. If you are not talking to ATC, you won't hear about other aircraft from ATC. If you are squawking VFR, controllers and everyone else expects you to "see and avoid." Worst of all, if you don't have a transponder (not always required under VFR), and you are scud running or punching through overcasts, you will probably not show up on ATC radar and responsible pilots will not get a traffic advisory about YOU. Keeping your aircraft upright shouldn't be your only or your greatest worry. If you kill yourself and it's your own fault, that's a lot different than if you kill someone else and it's your fault. Anyway, food for thought. Like I said, we all make mistakes, try to keep that to a minimum. Jim in NW FL Series 7 in progress. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:44 AM PST US From: Gerns25@netscape.net Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Gerns25@netscape.net Robert, IMC means Instrument Meteorological Conditions...basically BAD weather, clouds and very limited to no visibility. The problem with this is pilots experience what is called spatial disorientation or "vertigo" as it is sometimes called. This is a condition where your body and senses tell you one thing (i.e. you are flying straight and level) but in reality, you could be inverted or in a bank or in any number to flight conditions. I'm sure you can see the problems associated with flying in IMC without the proper training. Even with the proper training it can get pretty hairy! Darin N323MM owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: > >From: "Harris, Robert" >To: "'kitfox-list@matronics.com'" > Tur n and bank indicator >Subject: What Does IMC stand for?RE: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. > Tur n and bank indicator >Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 08:36:03 -0700 > >Do IMC conditions cause motion sickness in pilots? And what does IMC stand >for? > > Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:50 AM PST US From: Hank Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Hank Kerry is correct, it can be done: I had a vacuum pump failure several years ago in a SEL aircraft without any sort of autopilot. It was solid IFR and I was over the mountains of western Pennsylvania enroute to Boston Logan. The nearest airport with any weather that was not close to or below minimums was Logan. I told center, covered my vacuum instruments and flew then hour and half remaining with just the TC. Logan was just barely VFR which is why I chose to continue to there. ATC treated me really well and kept me up to date on weather at airports along they way without even being asked. Everything was socked in and/or at minimums and sitting in valleys so I think they understood my decision as I wanted to avoid missed/repeated approaches. I don't think I ever deviated more than one dot from airway center or 100 feet from assigned altitude as the situation really had my attention. I shot an ILS and broke out at about 800-1000 feet where the visibility was about 3 miles. Flying IFR with a partial panel is taught because it is possible. I have had two other pump failures in actual but they were not as interesting. Hank IV in progress On Aug 4, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Kerry Skyring wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" > > > Someone wrote... If anyone thinks they can fly IFR with just a Turn > coordinator , well i think they better wake up. > > Well my old instructor could and he never held an instrument rating > in his > life. Of course he wasn't just using the T&B. He was using the > altimeter, > compass and turn and bank coordinator. And he made his students > practice it > as well and because I was young and quick to learn back then I also > learnt > to make a 360 degree turn on "basic panel." It is, as many have > said, a > matter of practice. It's in the scan and the discipline of > following the > instruments and ignoring your senses. I'm not sure I could do it > now and I > certainly steer clear of IFR but I do understand the principles and > pilots > should not be put off from gaining new skills and knowledge (and > instruments) that may save their skin. > > On a completely different note - we called the Turn and Bank - the > Bat and > Ball - no prizes for guessing that I come from a nation which is > obsessed > with cricket. > Kerry > And thanks to Michael Gibbs for the great explanation of the the > instruments. I actually didn't understand that the AH - Artificial > Horizon - > is just a fancy Bat and Ball. > > >> >> >> >> > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:24 PM PST US From: "Steve Daum" Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 near Dayton, Ohio --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Daum" Hello. I would like to see a KitFox Series 7 in person. Could anyone guide me to one within 50-75 miles of Dayton, Ohio? no archive Thanks in advance, Steve Daum ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:03 PM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: Kitfox-List: Brian O'Neil --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" Please excuse the personal post guys, but my direct e-mails apparently aren't getting to Brian. Brian please give me a call at 662-769-2702. Thanks Andy Fultz