---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/05/05: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:18 AM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator (Michael Gibbs) 2. 02:25 PM - Re: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator - Garmin 196? (Randy Daughenbaugh) 3. 07:14 PM - Murle Williams Products (Michael Gibbs) 4. 07:26 PM - Re: Murle Williams Products (Don Pearsall) 5. 08:04 PM - Re: Murle Williams Products (John Perry) 6. 09:47 PM - Fabric socks vs rolls (ron schick) 7. 09:56 PM - test (ron schick) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:18 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Kerry sez: >And thanks to Michael Gibbs for the great explanation of the the >instruments. I actually didn't understand that the AH - Artificial >Horizon - is just a fancy Bat and Ball. I don't think that's exactly what I said. :-) I was comparing a Turn & Bank Indicator (gyro mounted on a horizontal axis) to a Turn Coordinator (gyro mounted on a tilted axis). An Attitude Indicator (or Artificial Horizon) is another beast altogether. Still a single gyro inside, this one has it's axis mounted vertically so that it can show roll or pitch deviations from level but not yaw. Both Turn & Bank and Turn Coordinators have a slip/skid ball at the bottom while Attitude Indicators typically don't. The latest trend in the IFR world (sanctioned by the FAA) is to replace the Turn & Bank or Turn Coordinator with a backup Attitude Indicator that has a built-in slip/skid ball. Studies have shown that pilots do a better job of keeping the greasy side down with an Attitude Indicator than with a Turn & Bank or a Turn Coordinator. Forgive my crude sketches, but at least they'll make it through the mailing list software (view with a fixed-pitch font such as Courier for best results): Turn & Bank - gyro axle is mounted horizontally and rotates vertically. ---- /- -\ / \ // \\ / \ \ | \ / | | \ / | | \ / | axle ------+------\-----+----- axle | /\ | | / \ | | / \ | \ / \ / \\/ // \ / \- -/ ---- Turn Coordinator - gyro axle is tilted up 30 degrees to allow roll sensing, but the primary indication is still yaw rate. axle / ------+------ // /// | \XX // | // \\ / | // \ | | // | | |/ | +--------------+--------------+ | // | | | // | | \ // | / \\ // | // //\\\ | /// // ------+------ // // axle Attitude Indicator - gyro axle is mounted vertically to sense roll and pitch changes. axle | -----+---- -------+------ //// | \\\\ |/ -- | -- \| | ---- | --- | | --+-- | | --- | --- | |\ --- | --- /| \\\\ | //// -------+------ -----+---- | axle Hope this is helpful. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:06 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator - Garmin 196? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Thanks Mike. I have found this whole discussion educational. I was watching for someone to bring up the "panel view" on the Garmin GPSmap 196. So I am bringing it up! The panel view is a real useful presentation of GPS data. GPS's are much more accurate in position change than in absolute position. So the "Panel View" presents speed (ground speed!), heading, altitude, VSI (I especially appreciate this since I do not have a vertical speed indicator), AND a "bank indicator". Bank indication is presented like a turn coordinator - showing wings. Of course this is not based on gyros at all, but rather on whether the path of the plane is straight or curved. The tighter the curve, the more the bank. I have played with it only a little, but it looks like it could conceivably give you enough data to save yourself if needed. It does have all the lawyerly disclaimers that it can not be relied for flight data, or some such, but it still seems to work well. (Is this view available on the 296?) So is there someone who can comment on their experience with this instrument? I guess preconceived opinions would be welcome, but I would appreciate hearing from experience. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turn coordinator vs. Turn and bank indicator --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Kerry sez: >And thanks to Michael Gibbs for the great explanation of the the >instruments. I actually didn't understand that the AH - Artificial >Horizon - is just a fancy Bat and Ball. I don't think that's exactly what I said. :-) I was comparing a Turn & Bank Indicator (gyro mounted on a horizontal axis) to a Turn Coordinator (gyro mounted on a tilted axis). An Attitude Indicator (or Artificial Horizon) is another beast altogether. Still a single gyro inside, this one has it's axis mounted vertically so that it can show roll or pitch deviations from level but not yaw. Both Turn & Bank and Turn Coordinators have a slip/skid ball at the bottom while Attitude Indicators typically don't. The latest trend in the IFR world (sanctioned by the FAA) is to replace the Turn & Bank or Turn Coordinator with a backup Attitude Indicator that has a built-in slip/skid ball. Studies have shown that pilots do a better job of keeping the greasy side down with an Attitude Indicator than with a Turn & Bank or a Turn Coordinator. Forgive my crude sketches, but at least they'll make it through the mailing list software (view with a fixed-pitch font such as Courier for best results): Turn & Bank - gyro axle is mounted horizontally and rotates vertically. ---- /- -\ / \ // \\ / \ \ | \ / | | \ / | | \ / | axle ------+------\-----+----- axle | /\ | | / \ | | / \ | \ / \ / \\/ // \ / \- -/ ---- Turn Coordinator - gyro axle is tilted up 30 degrees to allow roll sensing, but the primary indication is still yaw rate. axle / ------+------ // /// | \XX // | // \\ / | // \ | | // | | |/ | +--------------+--------------+ | // | | | // | | \ // | / \\ // | // //\\\ | /// // ------+------ // // axle Attitude Indicator - gyro axle is mounted vertically to sense roll and pitch changes. axle | -----+---- -------+------ //// | \\\\ |/ -- | -- \| | ---- | --- | | --+-- | | --- | --- | |\ --- | --- /| \\\\ | //// -------+------ -----+---- | axle Hope this is helpful. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:02 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Murle Williams Products --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Hi, Recently someone posted an e-mail suggesting that another list member contact Murle Williams but he indicated that he couldn't find any contact information for Murle on the 'net (another member was nice enough to post Murle's phone number shortly thereafter). The reason Murle was tough to find is that he only joined the 21st century this week! I'm happy to announce that Murle now has a web site where you can find information, photos, and pricing information for all of his products as well as phone and e-mail contact information and even some hints and tips from this three-time national award winning airplane builder and his team. All it took was a little prodding and my volunteering to put the site together for him. :-). Bookmark his URL: Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:14 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Murle Williams Products --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" Way to go Mike! I always wondered what happened to Murle. These days if you cannot get any information on-line, you might as well be on Mars. So it is great that you made a web site happen for him. It is a good looking one too. Congratulations to you. Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Murle Williams Products --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Hi, Recently someone posted an e-mail suggesting that another list member contact Murle Williams but he indicated that he couldn't find any contact information for Murle on the 'net (another member was nice enough to post Murle's phone number shortly thereafter). The reason Murle was tough to find is that he only joined the 21st century this week! I'm happy to announce that Murle now has a web site where you can find information, photos, and pricing information for all of his products as well as phone and e-mail contact information and even some hints and tips from this three-time national award winning airplane builder and his team. All it took was a little prodding and my volunteering to put the site together for him. :-). Bookmark his URL: Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:22 PM PST US From: "John Perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Murle Williams Products --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" Thank you very much for helping all of us with more stuff to buy lol . Very nice site . Fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD -------Original Message------- From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Murle Williams Products --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Hi, Recently someone posted an e-mail suggesting that another list member contact Murle Williams but he indicated that he couldn't find any contact information for Murle on the 'net (another member was nice enough to post Murle's phone number shortly thereafter). The reason Murle was tough to find is that he only joined the 21st century this week! I'm happy to announce that Murle now has a web site where you can find information, photos, and pricing information for all of his products as well as phone and e-mail contact information and even some hints and tips from this three-time national award winning airplane builder and his team. All it took was a little prodding and my volunteering to put the site together for him. :-). Bookmark his URL: Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:08 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fabric socks vs rolls --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" I hope to begin the fabric proccess before the summer days become cold in Oregon. I was wondering if anyone had tried the sock kits Aircraft Spruce sells? They sound like a shortcut, but is it really? Also should I just plan on buying 5 gallon jugs of Polybrush, spray, and tone? Not my bag and I'm almost afraid to start. Thanx in advance Ron NB Ore. Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:31 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: Kitfox-List: test --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" do not archive Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/