---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/08/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: first flight - oil injection question (kitfox@gto.net) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: first flight-oil injection question (Marco Menezes) 3. 06:23 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (flier) 4. 07:25 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (Ted Palamarek) 5. 07:27 AM - Re: first rebuild (Ron Liebmann) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: matco brake pads (Paul Peerenboom) 7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: first rebuild (John Perry) 8. 08:06 AM - Re: matco brake pads (John Perry) 9. 08:11 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (RAY Gignac) 10. 08:15 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (kitfoxjunky) 11. 09:59 AM - Flaperons as Trim (Guy Buchanan) 12. 10:48 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (flier) 13. 10:50 AM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (flier) 14. 12:36 PM - Re: first flight (wwillyard@aol.com) 15. 01:38 PM - Rotax Carb Sync (kitfoxjunky) 16. 03:24 PM - Re: Rotax Carb Sync (PWilson) 17. 03:24 PM - Re: CRACKED MUFFLER! (PWilson) 18. 04:06 PM - Re: Rotax Carb Sync (Herbert R Gottelt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight - oil injection question From: kitfox@gto.net --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net Marco, THe small drop in oil tells me something not correct. Do you have a rotax manual? It will show you to align the 2 marks on oil injection pump. Them make sure you get near full travle of the oil pump arm upwards with throttle movement. ALso oil tank to be higher than pump and make sure if flows by gravity. Pump is to be bled as well. Here is a manual http://www.ultralightnews.ca/rotax503/rotax2strokepdf/503installationmanual.pdf Go to section 12.1 to find info. Here is a few articles on oil injection http://www.ultralightnews.com/alerts1/alert421.htm article on oils http://www.ultralightnews.com/features/oiltest.htm Hope this helps you all, Kirby...... Ontario Canada. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Menezes" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight - oil injection question > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes > > Thanks Kirby. It was a thrill. On break-in I did run 100:1 premix for 1 hour as suggested by Rotax. Next 2 hours of run time have been straight 92 octane. Do I understand you to mean that the 1/4" drop in oil tank contents over 3 hours of operation is normal? I am using Airwolf AV-2 (TSC3). Maybe i'll continue to burn pre-mix for a few more hours. > > Carb circlips are already set to richest (position 3). I'm using the 11G2 needle. Do I need a richer needle? WOT rpms were at about 6800. At static, it ran about 6200. Should I coarsen the prop a bit more? The way she jumped off the ground I'm not concerned with giving up climb performance. > > As for antifreeze, I'm using an aluminum compatible type, 50:50 mix but not with distilled. Our well water is somewhat "hard" but is free of chlorine. > > Marco Menezes > Model 2 - 582 N99KX > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net > > Marco, Congrats on your completion. !! > > Now the 582 will run 50 to 70 to 1 on the oil injection. It is > mechanical and very dependable. The oil pump lever will travel with the > throttle. Check with your rotax manual to ensure proper set up. One a > new engine i think it advisable to add some oil to your fuel as well at > 100 to 1 in case you have an issue with your injection. ( yours sounds > like it is working ) > Use good mineral oil as well with a API -TC rating . Bombardier XPS or > Pennzoil for air cooled engines. Do not use outboard oil as it only > has a TCw3 rrating and it not what rotax recommends. > > EGT 1250 is hot yes.... check your plugs to see the colour and > possible lower the clips on the needles (this raises the needle richer) > . > > Water temp 180 is fine in this warm climate. I think trotax says 176 > F max plus add in eror in guages and sender--your are prolly close. > What is your antifreee type and mixture? you need to use phospahte > free and distilled water. > > > Kirby.... > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:57 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: re: first flight-oil injection question --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes Congrats yourself Greg! I know exactly the exhiliration you felt when that little bird jumped into the air. Flying a cub does not compare. Interesting that #374 and 375 went airborne within a week of each other, 15 years after kits were delivered. I have adjusted the oil pump lever per the manual and bled air out of the oil line. Next fill ups will be 100:1 premix until I verify normal oil consumption. Theres a good article on Rotax oil injection system (and many other Rotax topics) at http://www.georgia-ultralights.com/page/page/898129.htm . I'm gonna hold off repitching the prop and rejetting the carbs to see what these adjustments to oil system do. First flight pics will be posted soon. Thanks to everyone who responded. Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX GONER752@aol.com wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: GONER752@aol.com Congrats on the first flight, Marco. I flew my mod. II for the first time last weekend. What a blast! I have s/n 375, I've wondered how you were coming along. As for the injection question, afraid I can't be of much help except to say that the injection tank was already gone from mine when I bought it. So I premix 50:1. Talking with some folks awhile back, they were of the opinion that premixing was the way to go anyway. They cited the possibility of the injection system going down in flight or running the reservoir dry. I haven't heard of any problems with the injection on the 582's and given the usage rate you describe, running the oil out doesn't seem very likely either, so, there's my two cents worth. I wish I had learned to fly in the fox, it's a bit like starting all over again. The rudder? That's for turning the nose wheel,right? : ) Anyway, congrats and enjoy your new 'fox. Greg Gerace 375kl mod II 582 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:44 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Hey Ray, Make sure they backpurge the muffler / tailpipe with argon as they TIG the tailpipe back on or you'll be replacing it again soon. The vibration on the muffler will get all the tailpipes sooner or later. I added a couple of 3/16" x 3/4" stainless supports from the edge of the muffler at a 45 down to the tailpipe and haven't had any further problems. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" > >Hello Folks, > >After my trip to Oshkosh and back, I pulled my cowlings off the kitfox and discovered a disturbing view! My exhaust tube had separated below the weld on the muffler. The weld did not crack, looks like it was pulled straight out of the muffler housing itself, around the weld. My reason for investigating was due to a rough sounding engine which I thought might be fouled plugs. Well I know the reason now. Will take photos and post for all to see very soon. I am taking the muffler to a race shop and hope they can repair. By the way, Oshkosh was a great trip in the Kitfox. > >Ray Gignac, N2BH >Model IV, 1200 912S > > >_- ====================================================== ====== browse Subscriptions page, FAQ, List >_- ====================================================== ====== > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:08 AM PST US From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" Ted Don't leave us hanging --- what happens if you don't purge the muffler after using TIG to weld it??? Thanks Ted <<<>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! Hey Ray, Make sure they backpurge the muffler / tailpipe with argon as they TIG the tailpipe back on or you'll be replacing it again soon. Regards, Ted ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:29 AM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: first rebuild --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" I have a request from Lister Robert Beck who just arrived in the Chicago area from his home in Japan where he works. He has just over 300 hours on his 582 and wants to send it out for rebuild to a shop as close to Chicago as possible. Can anyone recommend a shop for him? He will be in the USA until the 20th of August so he has to work fast. Thanks much, Ron N55KF DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:29 AM PST US From: "Paul Peerenboom" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: matco brake pads --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Peerenboom" I got new brake pads at Oshkosh from Matco last week. I have a 93 Model IV with the 8 inch rims. If this is yours I can get you that number. The matco people were very good they sold me the new pad which are now semi metallic not the old organic pads. I nave not installed them yet but I am told there much better. Cars converted years ago. Paul N102DG ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Perry" Subject: Kitfox-List: matco brake pads > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" > > Hello fellow flyers , does anyone have the part number for the brake pads > for the matco brakes or the rapco pad number to cross them to ?. > I really need to replace mine and am havign trouble finding the part > number > > > Thanks > John Perry > Kitfox 2 N718PD > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:45 AM PST US From: "John Perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: first rebuild --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" http://www.rdaerosports.com/ Call Rob he is the best only 1250 bucks for a rebuild on 582 includes crank I buy my parts from him sends them out either the day i call or next day never had to wait for weeks. complete gasket set for 582 is only 65 dollars with shipping for 582 . take care fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry -------Original Message------- From: Ron Liebmann Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: first rebuild --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" I have a request from Lister Robert Beck who just arrived in the Chicago area from his home in Japan where he works. He has just over 300 hours on his 582 and wants to send it out for rebuild to a shop as close to Chicago as possible. Can anyone recommend a shop for him? He will be in the USA until the 20th of August so he has to work fast. Thanks much, Ron N55KF DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:58 AM PST US From: "John Perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: matco brake pads --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" I have the same brakes and wheels ,Dont keep me hangin lol . I need the number for them . I like to have brakes helps to stop lol . Thanks very much Fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD Serial # 718 -------Original Message------- From: Paul Peerenboom Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: matco brake pads --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Peerenboom" I got new brake pads at Oshkosh from Matco last week. I have a 93 Model IV with the 8 inch rims. If this is yours I can get you that number. The matco people were very good they sold me the new pad which are now semi metallic not the old organic pads. I nave not installed them yet but I am told there much better. Cars converted years ago. Paul N102DG ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Perry" Subject: Kitfox-List: matco brake pads > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Perry" > > Hello fellow flyers , does anyone have the part number for the brake pads > for the matco brakes or the rapco pad number to cross them to ?. > I really need to replace mine and am havign trouble finding the part > number > > > Thanks > John Perry > Kitfox 2 N718PD > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:55 AM PST US From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" I took my exhaust system to a company that custom builds stainless race exhaust, and also does all the repairs for the local airports in my area. I will ask him about your suggestion. Thanks! Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: flier To: kitfox-list@matronics.com ; kitfox-list Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > Hey Ray, Make sure they backpurge the muffler / tailpipe with argon as they TIG the tailpipe back on or you'll be replacing it again soon. The vibration on the muffler will get all the tailpipes sooner or later. I added a couple of 3/16" x 3/4" stainless supports from the edge of the muffler at a 45 down to the tailpipe and haven't had any further problems. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "RAY Gignac" > To: "kitfox-list" > Subject: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" > > >Hello Folks, > >After my trip to Oshkosh and back, I pulled my cowlings off the kitfox and discovered a disturbing view! My exhaust tube had separated below the weld on the muffler. The weld did not crack, looks like it was pulled straight out of the muffler housing itself, around the weld. My reason for investigating was due to a rough sounding engine which I thought might be fouled plugs. Well I know the reason now. Will take photos and post for all to see very soon. I am taking the muffler to a race shop and hope they can repair. By the way, Oshkosh was a great trip in the Kitfox. > >Ray Gignac, N2BH >Model IV, 1200 912S > > >_- browse Subscriptions page, FAQ, List >_- > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:50 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! Serialize complete at 08/08/2005 11:15:33 AM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Hi Ray. Been there. One of my biggest complaints wrt my Kitfox over the last four years has been the muffler. It cracked several times in my first two years of operation. I too run a 912S. Eventually I gave up trying tor repair it and purchased a new exhaust system. I think my problem was related to prop vibration, and the new prop is much smoother so maybe I am ok now...but I also think the 912S high compression is a factor. I purchased a DVD recently that has installation tips for the 912 series of A/C. In the exhaust section..every sample installation showed the use of ball joints. They insisted this was the only way to configure a reliable system. Although some KF 912S operators seem to get away with their stock Skystar exhaust systems, and so far my new exhaust has been trouble free (but I have only 10 hrs on it ytd), I intend to install ball joints in the very near future. Gary Walsh C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" Hello Folks, After my trip to Oshkosh and back, I pulled my cowlings off the kitfox and discovered a disturbing view! My exhaust tube had separated below the weld on the muffler. The weld did not crack, looks like it was pulled straight out of the muffler housing itself, around the weld. My reason for investigating was due to a rough sounding engine which I thought might be fouled plugs. Well I know the reason now. Will take photos and post for all to see very soon. I am taking the muffler to a race shop and hope they can repair. By the way, Oshkosh was a great trip in the Kitfox. Ray Gignac, N2BH Model IV, 1200 912S ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:06 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: Flaperons as Trim --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan All, I'm out on the web looking for a cool, light trim lever I can use for my manual trim. I go to a Challenger ultralight site and see, under the manual trim, the phrase "Not necessary if you have flaperons." So now I'm wondering, do I need a manual trim? Should I just use the flaps for trim, or is that draggy? I currently have the notched flap "upgrade" installed, but maybe I should remove that, or modify it with some vernier capability so I can use it as a trim. What do you think? Thanks, Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:25 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" You get 'sugar' on the back side of the weld that weakens the weld and leaves it susceptable to corrosion. Using the inert argon backfill during the welding provides the same atmosphere as within the arc field on the welded side. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "Ted Palamarek" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" > >Ted > >Don't leave us hanging --- what happens if you don't purge >the muffler after using TIG to weld it??? > >Thanks >Ted > > ><<<>>> >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! > >Hey Ray, > >Make sure they backpurge the muffler / tailpipe with >argon as they TIG the tailpipe back on or you'll be >replacing it again soon. > >Regards, > >Ted > > >_- ====================================================== ====== browse Subscriptions page, FAQ, List >_- ====================================================== ====== > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:36 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" I'm sure they'll know if they're used to doing SS. Common practice. Sometimes folks not as interested in reliability will shortcut and not do the right thing. The weld will look fine, and last for a while, but will eventually fail. Good luck Ray, Ted --- Original Message --- From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" > >I took my exhaust system to a company that custom builds stainless race exhaust, and also does all the repairs for the local airports in my area. I will ask him about your suggestion. Thanks! > >Ray > ----- Original Message ----- > From: flier > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com ; kitfox-list > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:23 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" > > > Hey Ray, > > Make sure they backpurge the muffler / tailpipe with > argon as they TIG the tailpipe back on or you'll be > replacing it again soon. The vibration on the > muffler will get all the tailpipes sooner or later. > I added a couple of 3/16" x 3/4" stainless supports > from the edge of the muffler at a 45 down to the > tailpipe and haven't had any further problems. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > --- Original Message --- > From: "RAY Gignac" > > To: "kitfox-list" > > Subject: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" > > > > > >Hello Folks, > > > >After my trip to Oshkosh and back, I pulled my > cowlings off the kitfox and discovered a disturbing > view! My exhaust tube had separated below the weld > on the muffler. The weld did not crack, looks like > it was pulled straight out of the muffler housing > itself, around the weld. My reason for investigating > was due to a rough sounding engine which I thought > might be fouled plugs. Well I know the reason now. > Will take photos and post for all to see very soon. > I am taking the muffler to a race shop and hope they > can repair. By the way, Oshkosh was a great trip in > the Kitfox. > > > >Ray Gignac, N2BH > >Model IV, 1200 912S > > > > > >_- > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > List > >_- > > > > > > > > >_- ====================================================== ====== browse Subscriptions page, FAQ, List >_- ====================================================== ====== > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:06 PM PST US From: wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight --> Kitfox-List message posted by: wwillyard@aol.com Congratulations Marco. It's nice to hear about another Kitfox in the neighborhood. Bill Willyard Classic IV, 912, Grand Rapids, Michigan DO NOT ARCHIVE >After 16 years in the building, Model 2 s/n 374 (Rotax 582) flew for the first >time today! Following a very short takeoff roll, we circled the patch at Big >Rapids, Michigan for about .7 hrs. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:19 PM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax Carb Sync Serialize complete at 08/08/2005 04:37:33 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Was going to purchase a couple of vacuum gages to sync the carbs on my 912S...then someone forwarded me a cheaper alternative. Basically you make a manometer out of some tubing and a yard stick, with some oil in it. Connected to both the carb vacuum ports, if they are not in sync the oil moves away from the centre point. Not sure if anyone has tried this...but from what I can see it would work fine. http://www.challengers101.com/Manometer.html Gary Walsh C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:18 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax Carb Sync --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson Any auto part place shop that caters to sports cars, like English or European ones sell a sync device called "Uni-Syn Model A". They been in used for years and years and work fine on any multi carb setup. It works on the principal of a small plastic bead that can be adjusted to float in a tube. All you do is make both or all the carbs are the same at all throttle settings. It can be adjusted for idle and part throttle, and full throttle on small engines. Don't be snowed by the hype the newer a better gadgets. Trust the engine tuners who have used them for race cars to motorcycles and any other engine with more than one carb. I think you can find one on Google using "carburetor unisyn" Paul ======== At 01:37 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky > >Was going to purchase a couple of vacuum gages to sync the carbs on my >912S...then someone forwarded me a cheaper alternative. Basically you make >a manometer out of some tubing and a yard stick, with some oil in it. >Connected to both the carb vacuum ports, if they are not in sync the oil >moves away from the centre point. Not sure if anyone has tried this...but >from what I can see it would work fine. > >http://www.challengers101.com/Manometer.html > >Gary Walsh >C-GOOT >www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox > >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:18 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CRACKED MUFFLER! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson There is a skystar bulletin that says to add a bracket from the pipe to the muffler. Paul ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:16 PM PST US From: Herbert R Gottelt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax Carb Sync --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Herbert R Gottelt I have been using a similar arrangement for years to check the sync of both carbs. It really works great. I don't even use a yard stick. Make the loop long enough for plenty of it to lie on the ground and comming up on both outsides of the cowling. Attach one end to each fitting where the crossover tube from the intake manifolds would connect. The crossover tube must be removed. Loosely tie the oilfilled clear plastic tube together under the aircraft in a vertical fashion. Without the engine running, the top of the oil in the tube should be visible somewhere in the vertical part. It should have found it's own level and both tops should be at the same level. After engine start, the carbs are syncronised perfectly if the oil levels remain even to each other. Herb Gottelt Mt. Prospect, IL 912UL, M4-1200 wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Was going to purchase a couple of vacuum gages to sync the carbs on my 912S...then someone forwarded me a cheaper alternative. Basically you make a manometer out of some tubing and a yard stick, with some oil in it. Connected to both the carb vacuum ports, if they are not in sync the oil moves away from the centre point. Not sure if anyone has tried this...but from what I can see it would work fine. http://www.challengers101.com/Manometer.html Gary Walsh C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive