Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: Fw: M4-912 overheating (Jeffrey Puls)
2. 05:36 AM - Re: Fw: M4-912 overheating (Lowell Fitt)
3. 06:20 AM - Re: SV: SV: Re: sight gauges (Brian Rodgers)
4. 06:32 AM - Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching (Michael Gibbs)
5. 09:29 AM - Re-M4-912 overheating (Steve Magdic)
6. 09:32 AM - Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching (John Larsen)
7. 11:30 AM - Re: SV: Bungee Cords (Michel Verheughe)
8. 11:31 AM - Re: SV: SV: Re: sight gauges (Michel Verheughe)
9. 01:12 PM - Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching (kitfox@gto.net)
10. 03:29 PM - Re: SV: SV: Re: sight gauges (Brian Rodgers)
11. 06:55 PM - Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching (Lowell Fitt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M4-912 overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
chuck,
The first thing is to check your oil temperature probe and gauge. Put it in
a warm liquid with a thermometer. Boil the liquid and compare the
temperature as they rise. It is very unusual that you have high temps with
a cooler. Next check to see if you have any oil lines coning from the oil
cooler that have a significant bent that would obstruct the free flow of
oil. Jeff Classic IV 912UL
> [Original Message]
> From: Jay Fabian <experimental208nd@comcast.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 8/19/2005 10:31:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: M4-912 overheating
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian"
<experimental208nd@comcast.net>
>
> Hi Chuck,
> I have the same set up. 4-1200 912ul.
> I actually have to put duct tape over the radiator and oil cooler.
Factory
> set up. Even at a 75deg day to get the temps near 200 deg. Some thing
else
> must be up with your engine, maybe some one can add to this.
> thanks
> Jay F.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
> To: "Kitfox list" <Kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: M4-912 overheating
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer"
> > <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
> >
> >
> > Hello fellow Listers,
> > I have a M4-1200 with a 912 in it. On climbouts to about 2500 feet the
> > engine oil temp gets up to about 230 to 235 with the coolant temp about
> > 210 in a 75 degree day. I have an earls oil cooler and oil and coolant
> > levels are full. I usually throttle back to about 4800 to 5000 rpm at
> > about 2000 feet to keep the oil temp below 230. Any time I go to full
> > throttle for extended times, (10 Min or so), the temps come up. The
top
> > of the coolant radiator is about 1.5 inches away from the belly of the
> > a/c. I use the orange coolant but talked to Lockwood about using the
new
> > Weaver coolant. They indicated that my temps won't change, it just
cools
> > the cylinders better by reducing/eliminating air pockets in the coolant
> > passages if I understood them correctly. I understand from the list
that
> > I could move the radiator down further into the airstream but I am
> > wondering if anyone has ever used any baffling under the cowling to try
to
> > force more air through the cylinder fins. It loo!
> > ks like the air path of least resistance is over the top of the engine
and
> > out the bottom. Any thoughts on reducing temps on high power
settings???
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: M4-912 overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Chuck, The previous two posts reflect my experience with the 912 and the
Earl's cooler. It is possible that the wrong temp probes are installed.
Probes from one manufacturer may not read correctly with another
manufacturer's gauge, i.e. Rotax probe with Westach gauge. Also check for
obstructions in the flow of the oil and coolant..
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: M4-912 overheating
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeffrey Puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
>
> chuck,
> The first thing is to check your oil temperature probe and gauge. Put it
> in
> a warm liquid with a thermometer. Boil the liquid and compare the
> temperature as they rise. It is very unusual that you have high temps with
> a cooler. Next check to see if you have any oil lines coning from the oil
> cooler that have a significant bent that would obstruct the free flow of
> oil. Jeff Classic IV 912UL
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Jay Fabian <experimental208nd@comcast.net>
>> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Date: 8/19/2005 10:31:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fw: M4-912 overheating
>>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian"
> <experimental208nd@comcast.net>
>>
>> Hi Chuck,
>> I have the same set up. 4-1200 912ul.
>> I actually have to put duct tape over the radiator and oil cooler.
> Factory
>> set up. Even at a 75deg day to get the temps near 200 deg. Some thing
> else
>> must be up with your engine, maybe some one can add to this.
>> thanks
>> Jay F.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer" <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
>> To: "Kitfox list" <Kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Fw: M4-912 overheating
>>
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer"
>> > <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello fellow Listers,
>> > I have a M4-1200 with a 912 in it. On climbouts to about 2500 feet the
>> > engine oil temp gets up to about 230 to 235 with the coolant temp about
>> > 210 in a 75 degree day. I have an earls oil cooler and oil and coolant
>> > levels are full. I usually throttle back to about 4800 to 5000 rpm at
>> > about 2000 feet to keep the oil temp below 230. Any time I go to full
>> > throttle for extended times, (10 Min or so), the temps come up. The
> top
>> > of the coolant radiator is about 1.5 inches away from the belly of the
>> > a/c. I use the orange coolant but talked to Lockwood about using the
> new
>> > Weaver coolant. They indicated that my temps won't change, it just
> cools
>> > the cylinders better by reducing/eliminating air pockets in the coolant
>> > passages if I understood them correctly. I understand from the list
> that
>> > I could move the radiator down further into the airstream but I am
>> > wondering if anyone has ever used any baffling under the cowling to try
> to
>> > force more air through the cylinder fins. It loo!
>> > ks like the air path of least resistance is over the top of the engine
> and
>> > out the bottom. Any thoughts on reducing temps on high power
> settings???
>> > Thanks in advance,
>> > Chuck
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauges |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
The best way to retain that little red straw is to put a rubber band around
the can.
When the straw is not in use, the rubber band holds it to the can.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: SV: SV: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: sight gauges
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> > From: James Shumaker [jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net]
> > The only reason "WD40" is mentioned is that everyone in america
instantly
> > recognizes the name and the straw. Any spray can straw could be used.
>
> Thank you, Jim. WD40 is also pretty well known, in Norway, although we
have other makes of "toolbox in a can" as they advertise. Incidentally,
those "straws" are the first thing I loose when I buy a new can! :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Lowell sez:
>I just scanned my Polyfiber manual and can't find the "not adequate
>and required" part. They do discuss alternate methods - clips,
>screws, etc and mention that if deviating from the original
>manufacturers recommendation FAA approval is required. That, of
>course for certified aircraft.
You won't find it in the manual, Lowell, but here it is right from
the horse's mouth
<http://www.polyfiber.com/techquestions/attachingribs/>:
"Do not use fabric cement to attach fabric to the ribs. If you do use
it be sure to use another means of attachment. Fabric cement is not
designed for this use and has no peel strength (that is required in
this instance). Some kit manufacturers recommend attaching fabric in
this manner. We emphatically do not recommend this method."
>...especially since the incidence of fabric separation from a cap
>strip resulting in an incident sappears to be zero.
It's not zero, Lowell. There have been examples of aircraft going
down due to such separation right here on the list.
John sez:
>What really gives strength to the wing is the shrinking of the
>fabric. It is the vise like grip exhibited by the shrunken fabric
>that holds the wing together, not the glue or rib stitching.
That's simply not true, John. Even when properly shrunk fabric comes
loose from the capstrips it balloons up under air loads. Numerous
examples have been posted here and elsewhere that this can and does
happen in flight. The folks at Poly-Fiber have done extensive
testing on the poly- products and determined that the peel strength
(resistance to the lifting force perpendicular to the wing's upper
surface) is not great enough to rely on as a sole means of
attachment. The fact that many 'foxes and other aircraft are flying
around that way is a testament to how strong the adhesion is, but why
compromise on such a thing when every other design aspect of the
airplane has built-in safety margins?
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re-M4-912 overheating |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Magdic" <steve.magdic@1psg.com>
Chuck, are you using the standard quad gauge to monitor oil pressure, oil temp,
water temp and EGT?
If so, make sure that the 3 ground wires coming off that gauge are all wired to
the same ground lug.
If this is not done correctly, you'll get a read error in all the electric gauges
in that instrument.
When full throttle is applied, the electric gauges will rotate clockwise giving
false readings. That's
what happened to my gauge until I contacted Westach and found the fix.
I'm running a 912 with the belly radiator pretty much contacting the bottom of
the fuselage. Contact
me off list for some pictures of my radiator installation.
steve.magdic@1psg.com
Steve Magdic
Wisconsin
Model 3 / 4 wing
912UL
N490PA
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen <jopatco@mindspring.com>
No one says rib stitching is not additional insurance, just not
necessary on a KF wing if you glue the fabric down right.
I used to work for Ron Alexander (owner of Poly Fiber) as a Sportair
engine instructor. The reason I did the exhaustive search through the
NTSB accident records was because his Poly Fiber covering instructors
were telling tales of horror about fabric ballooning off un stitched
wings on Avids and KF causing ugly crashes. The records show no such
incidents were reported to the NTSB from 1983 to 1997. I see we have one
now in 2004 but it hardly resulted in anything like the Poly Fiber
people were proclaiming in those days. One incident in 21 years, I guess
sooner or later everything happens.
Evidently Ron Alexander told his instructors to prove his point and he
would supply the facts. I'll tell you what, If you can't believe me who
had no personal gain and a lot of experience here at all, then I doubt
you can believe the company salesman.
Signing off promising not to respond again until the subject comes up
again in about 2007,
Your List Comrade
JML
Michael Gibbs wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
>Lowell sez:
>
>
>
>>I just scanned my Polyfiber manual and can't find the "not adequate
>>and required" part. They do discuss alternate methods - clips,
>>screws, etc and mention that if deviating from the original
>>manufacturers recommendation FAA approval is required. That, of
>>course for certified aircraft.
>>
>>
>
>You won't find it in the manual, Lowell, but here it is right from
>the horse's mouth
><http://www.polyfiber.com/techquestions/attachingribs/>:
>
>"Do not use fabric cement to attach fabric to the ribs. If you do use
>it be sure to use another means of attachment. Fabric cement is not
>designed for this use and has no peel strength (that is required in
>this instance). Some kit manufacturers recommend attaching fabric in
>this manner. We emphatically do not recommend this method."
>
>
>
>>...especially since the incidence of fabric separation from a cap
>>strip resulting in an incident sappears to be zero.
>>
>>
>
>It's not zero, Lowell. There have been examples of aircraft going
>down due to such separation right here on the list.
>
>John sez:
>
>
>
>>What really gives strength to the wing is the shrinking of the
>>fabric. It is the vise like grip exhibited by the shrunken fabric
>>that holds the wing together, not the glue or rib stitching.
>>
>>
>
>That's simply not true, John. Even when properly shrunk fabric comes
>loose from the capstrips it balloons up under air loads. Numerous
>examples have been posted here and elsewhere that this can and does
>happen in flight. The folks at Poly-Fiber have done extensive
>testing on the poly- products and determined that the peel strength
>(resistance to the lifting force perpendicular to the wing's upper
>surface) is not great enough to rely on as a sole means of
>attachment. The fact that many 'foxes and other aircraft are flying
>around that way is a testament to how strong the adhesion is, but why
>compromise on such a thing when every other design aspect of the
>airplane has built-in safety margins?
>
>Mike G.
>N728KF
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee Cords |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Thank you for your answers, Marco, John, Ted, Dave, Dee, Jerry and Rex.
My bungee cords are 0.33 thick with 6 wraps. The funny thing is that, sometimes
when I do the preflight, they are not sagging, other times, they are. Can't
figure why.
Anyway, I'll change them.
John Perry, I appreciate you saying that there are different types, I am sure
of that. But without any other precision on what makes the quality, I think
I'll have a look at a serious shipchandler, here, what has some of the finest
ropes used in racing yachts. I have no reason to believe that the quality there
should be inferior to what I can find e.g. at Aircraft Spruce.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauges |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Brian Rodgers wrote:
> When the straw is not in use, the rubber band holds it to the can.
Yes Brian and they used to be sold with such a rubber band. But lately, I have
seen them with a grove in the lid where the straw fits nicely ... until it
falls off in your toolbox or elsewhere
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
John, Well put !!
No i think the fact is that for liabilities sake they advise to stitch
over glue only.
Now there are thousands of planes ( kitfoxes included ) that have no
rib stitching and have no problems.
If you are building sure why not do it, but not doing it will not make
a plane that crusies under 120 to 150 mph any safer technically. But
it surely does not seem to be anything one would have to do to make
your plane airworthy.
It kinda like the old 2 stroker bashers -- the guys that had troubles
most of the time were the cause of most of the problems.
Nut hey i just a dumb guy with a 2 stroke and non stitched wings that
are 12 years old and no problems here yet.
To each his own -- some like to have a 700 or 800 lb. kitfox and some
of us like 500 lb planes with out all those extra doodads that add all
that weight and get in and out of 500 foot strips :-)
Kirby
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John Larsen
<jopatco@mindspring.com>
>
> No one says rib stitching is not additional insurance, just not
> necessary on a KF wing if you glue the fabric down right.
> I used to work for Ron Alexander (owner of Poly Fiber) as a Sportair
> engine instructor. The reason I did the exhaustive search through the
> NTSB accident records was because his Poly Fiber covering instructors
> were telling tales of horror about fabric ballooning off un stitched
> wings on Avids and KF causing ugly crashes. The records show no such
> incidents were reported to the NTSB from 1983 to 1997. I see we have
one
> now in 2004 but it hardly resulted in anything like the Poly Fiber
> people were proclaiming in those days. One incident in 21 years, I
guess
> sooner or later everything happens.
> Evidently Ron Alexander told his instructors to prove his point and
he
> would supply the facts. I'll tell you what, If you can't believe me
who
> had no personal gain and a lot of experience here at all, then I
doubt
> you can believe the company salesman.
> Signing off promising not to respond again until the subject comes up
> again in about 2007,
> Your List Comrade
> JML
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: sight gauges |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" <brodg@texas.net>
Hmmmmm, don't know about there, but here in Texas, even the rubber bands are
"free"...
:-)
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Subject: Re: SV: SV: Kitfox-List: Re: sight gauges
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> Brian Rodgers wrote:
> > When the straw is not in use, the rubber band holds it to the can.
>
> Yes Brian and they used to be sold with such a rubber band. But lately, I
have
> seen them with a grove in the lid where the straw fits nicely ... until it
> falls off in your toolbox or elsewhere
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rib StitchingRib Stitching |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Michael,
I guess my point on all this is that there is a lot of Myths out there
pertaining to our airplanes and some become spoken as fact. In my opinion,
not being in the manual means exactly that - it's not in the manual.
Regarding reports of aircraft going down being reported on this list due to
fabric separation from the wings - I have been on the list since about 1994
and don't remember ever seeing an event posted. I don't have the energy to
check the archives, but if you want to and prove me wrong, I can live with
that. Incidentally, I think I can give a pretty good answer as to why I rib
stitched and did some other things I now wonder about - I think I felt
pressure from the list.
I jsut read John's post and this is my last post on this subject also. I
can't claim expertise, just a long history on this list and an open ear with
the guys I fly with. John is an expert and has a long history with both
companies.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Gibbs" <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rib StitchingRib Stitching
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Lowell sez:
>
>>I just scanned my Polyfiber manual and can't find the "not adequate
>>and required" part. They do discuss alternate methods - clips,
>>screws, etc and mention that if deviating from the original
>>manufacturers recommendation FAA approval is required. That, of
>>course for certified aircraft.
>
> You won't find it in the manual, Lowell, but here it is right from
> the horse's mouth
> <http://www.polyfiber.com/techquestions/attachingribs/>:
>
> "Do not use fabric cement to attach fabric to the ribs. If you do use
> it be sure to use another means of attachment. Fabric cement is not
> designed for this use and has no peel strength (that is required in
> this instance). Some kit manufacturers recommend attaching fabric in
> this manner. We emphatically do not recommend this method."
>
>>...especially since the incidence of fabric separation from a cap
>>strip resulting in an incident sappears to be zero.
>
> It's not zero, Lowell. There have been examples of aircraft going
> down due to such separation right here on the list.
>
> John sez:
>
>>What really gives strength to the wing is the shrinking of the
>>fabric. It is the vise like grip exhibited by the shrunken fabric
>>that holds the wing together, not the glue or rib stitching.
>
> That's simply not true, John. Even when properly shrunk fabric comes
> loose from the capstrips it balloons up under air loads. Numerous
> examples have been posted here and elsewhere that this can and does
> happen in flight. The folks at Poly-Fiber have done extensive
> testing on the poly- products and determined that the peel strength
> (resistance to the lifting force perpendicular to the wing's upper
> surface) is not great enough to rely on as a sole means of
> attachment. The fact that many 'foxes and other aircraft are flying
> around that way is a testament to how strong the adhesion is, but why
> compromise on such a thing when every other design aspect of the
> airplane has built-in safety margins?
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
>
>
>
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