Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:17 AM - wing tanks (jim cantrell)
2. 09:27 AM - Re: wing tanks (Lynn Matteson)
3. 10:04 AM - Re: wing tanks (Jim Crowder)
4. 10:40 AM - Re: wing tanks (Don Smythe)
5. 10:55 AM - Re: Exhaust Manifold Interference (Guy Buchanan)
6. 12:43 PM - Re: wing tanks (Randy Daughenbaugh)
7. 01:44 PM - Re: wing tanks (Lowell Fitt)
8. 01:49 PM - Re: wing tanks (Don Smythe)
9. 01:56 PM - Radiator Mods (Don Smythe)
10. 02:29 PM - Float Rigging (daniel johnson)
11. 02:35 PM - Re: Return Springs (Michel Verheughe)
12. 02:36 PM - Re: in flight Elevator trimin flight Elevator trimin (Michael Gibbs)
13. 03:04 PM - Elevator Trim Pics (John Stoner)
14. 07:19 PM - Re: Float Rigging (Fred Shiple)
15. 07:25 PM - Re: Radiator Mods (kitfox@gto.net)
16. 08:56 PM - Re: wing tanks (Tim Kaser)
17. 09:00 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Tim Kaser)
18. 09:32 PM - Re: Return Springs (James Shumaker)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone and flushed
with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per manual, question
is, to reseal or install as is?
Jim Cantrell
Series 5 TD
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Per Frank Miller @ Skystar, I flushed mine with acetone, DID NOT rinse
with water, and sloshed with Kreem. The acetone is compatible with the
Kreem, and water isn't. If you don't dry the water out COMPLETELY,
you'll have some areas where the Kreem won't stick or worse. Mine were
also 10-12 years old, and Frank said this method should be done. You're
lucky, you had not installed your tanks yet...what fun, sloshing tanks
alone, inside of a 12 ft long wing, inside the garage, in the
winter....wear breathing protection, or do outside.
Lynn
On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:24 AM, jim cantrell wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with
> acetone and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing
> as per manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
> Jim Cantrell
> Series 5 TD
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
My tanks were flushed with acetone and NOT sloshed with any
sealer. Three years with both auto fuel (with alcohol) and 100LL
aviation fuel the past year and no leaks in the tanks. I did have
the clear tubing for sight gauges fail at connections. I replaced
this tubing with clear vinyl fuel line from auto supply store and it
has worked with no problem or discoloration for a year. It has
mostly sat in the hangar with only a couple of flights as I have too
many projects going on. Retired life is hell.
Jim Crowder
At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>Per Frank Miller @ Skystar, I flushed mine with acetone, DID NOT rinse
>with water, and sloshed with Kreem. The acetone is compatible with the
>Kreem, and water isn't. If you don't dry the water out COMPLETELY,
>you'll have some areas where the Kreem won't stick or worse. Mine were
>also 10-12 years old, and Frank said this method should be done. You're
>lucky, you had not installed your tanks yet...what fun, sloshing tanks
>alone, inside of a 12 ft long wing, inside the garage, in the
>winter....wear breathing protection, or do outside.
>
>Lynn
>On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:24 AM, jim cantrell wrote:
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
> >
> > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with
> > acetone and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing
> > as per manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
> > Jim Cantrell
> > Series 5 TD
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
You'll get several opinions on this. I would fill the tanks with
"gasoline", plug all the holes and do a "MOUTH" only pressure test. If they
don't leak, use as is. Kreeme is only designed to plug pin holes. If you
don't have any then you don't need to plug them.
Don Smythe
Classic IV W/ 582
----- Original Message -----
From: "jim cantrell" <jcant1@direcway.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone
> and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per
> manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
> Jim Cantrell
> Series 5 TD
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Manifold Interference |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Thanks Jared. That's good news.
At 07:34 PM 8/23/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds <jareds@verizon.net>
>
...
> Paint doesnt flake or fade at all.
...
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Jim,
I think one issue that has not been mentioned is the material of
construction of your tank.
Someone may be able to set me straight on this, but I believe that Skystar
changed the resin used in these tanks about 10 years ago. Before the
change, the resin was not appropriate for use with gasoline containing
ethanol and other additives. It worked with 100LL, but not the newer auto
gas.
I think that you need to check with Skystar to see what tanks you have. If
it is the old ones, I think the kreem is appropriate.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "jim cantrell" <jcant1@direcway.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone
> and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per
> manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
> Jim Cantrell
> Series 5 TD
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Jim,
Unfortunately, in my opinion, there is no right answer, but some ideas are
better than others. This is my tank history.
Kit recieved March 1993 with factory Kreemed tanks. I did nothing to them in
spite of a failure on one of the early Alaska trip airplanes - Kreem came
off in sheets and lots of discussion regarding Kreem with lots of reasonable
thoughts and opinions.
First flight September 1998 No problems at all until on one of the Idaho
back country trips five years later. I noticed a number of small blisters
on the Aerothane in the area betseen the filler neck and the inboard edge of
the right Wing tank. This as I was wiping the dew off the top of the wings
at a remote strip. I was flying with 100LL at the time. They reanged in
size from pin point size to one aboit 1/4" in diameter. At first, I had no
idea what the blisters were until I cut one off the big one with a
razorblade and it was full of fuel. The myster to me is why the blisters as
I didn't bond the fabric to the top of the wing, They between the
Aerothane, and the Polyspray.
Since I got no liquid fuel anywhere except in the blisteres, I continued to
fly, but last annual I decided to remove the right wing and re-slosh. I
rinsed with Acetone and dumb me, I supposed that with the pressure build up
in the tank during the rinse stage, there would be residual Kreem forced
into the pinholes - yeh right. I did two sloshes with Kreem anyway, but
they were cursory at best because of my above mentioned thoughts.
I fueled and believe it or not, after about a week, I had fuel dripping from
the tank. What a mess. by this time I had cut up my wing jig to make a
neat little work bench, so I got to make another one. This time I re-read
the Kreem isntructions and sloshed again strictly according to the
instructions. I wish I could say that everything is perfect, but I still
get a slight fuel smell, but no blisters and no dripping fuel.
Incidentally, the leaks were on the top of the tank. I am wondering if the
Kreem "weathers" better when wet with fuel.
Anyway, My recommendation is to go with the Kreem, but a year or three or
even five is no evidence that all is or will be perfect.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "jim cantrell" <jcant1@direcway.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>
> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone
> and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per
> manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
> Jim Cantrell
> Series 5 TD
>
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
This has been a discussion for years. Here is my "opinion". Assume
you have a tank made of a fiberglass material that is "not" compatible with
gasoline/additives. You put in Kreeme.....The Kreeme is designed to fill
pin holes and I doubt very seriously (my opinion) that the Kreeme would coat
the insides of the tank "sufficiently" to prevent gasoline form getting at
"some" of the fiberglass. In that case, that 1/2 sq. inch (example) of
fiberglass is going to be eaten by the dreaded gasoline/additives.
My tanks are 95 vintage and came Kreemed from the Skystar "tank
fabricator". The Kreeme cracked while the tanks were hanging on the wall.
I physically cut open my tanks and went to great lengths to restore the
insides. Among my findings, the Kreeme was either sprayed, painted or
rolled on prior to the tank tops being epoxied on (they were not sloshed at
the factory). I still had some small areas that were not covered in Kreeme
(obvious by the masking tape lines on the inside of the tank tops).
I bet you could Kreeme the inside of a Styrofoam container and gas would
eat the Styrofoam all to pieces within a short time. I just simply don't
think that Kreeme is a cure all for an inferior material as is being
suggested by the earlier Skystar tanks.
If the earlier tanks are subject to damage by gasoline then they should
simply be replaced with a material that is OK for gasoline.
I hope I didn't start something here.
Don Smythe
Classic IV W/ 582
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing tanks
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh"
> <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>
> Jim,
> I think one issue that has not been mentioned is the material of
> construction of your tank.
>
> Someone may be able to set me straight on this, but I believe that Skystar
> changed the resin used in these tanks about 10 years ago. Before the
> change, the resin was not appropriate for use with gasoline containing
> ethanol and other additives. It worked with 100LL, but not the newer auto
> gas.
>
> I think that you need to check with Skystar to see what tanks you have.
> If
> it is the old ones, I think the kreem is appropriate.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jim cantrell" <jcant1@direcway.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell <jcant1@direcway.com>
>>
>> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone
>> and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per
>> manual, question is, to reseal or install as is?
>> Jim Cantrell
>> Series 5 TD
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
I finally got a chance to fly the plane today after completing the cowl and radiator
mods (overheating on hot days during climb). First off, I noticed the taxi
temps were a bit higher than before. They got up to around 160 tops. During
an extended full power climb, the temps went up to around 172 max and during
cruise, around 165. I also noticed around a 5-10 MPH speed increase however,
the prop pitch was a shy too coarse. Could only get 6500 RPM during full throttle
level flight. The OAT's today were only 85 degrees but it looks like
the modifications might be giving me a more uniform coolant temp in all conditions.
Looking now for a 90+ degree day.
Don Smythe
Classic IV W/ 582
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
HI All. I've just bought a set of fiberglass floats manufactured by avid to
use on my kitfox3. I'm new to float flying and may need a little assistance
getting my rigging built/set up. The floats are 1200# displacement and
should work finefor my ac gross weight.
So far i know that my CG should lie a distance of 1/3 the widest width of
the float aft of the step...or was it forward...i'll have to look that one
up again. That part i can find.
I'm also told the angle between wing chord and float topline should be 5-7
degrees tail low.
I'd like to know the correct way to calculate the distance between float
centerlines (how wide the spreader bars should be) and correct height of
aircraft over floats.
I'd also like to know what size and diameter tubing is commonly used. I'm
planning to use some used wingstuts i've located...different sizes available
to me.
I'll also need to decide how to connect the water rudder.
If you have experience with or own a kitfox on floats and can give me an
idea of how your plane is rigged drop me a note.
Dan Johnson.
Columbus Ohio
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Return Springs |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Wouldn't have to be,Michel....it could be like model planes do and have
> a long rod (like the elevator on the Kitfox) actuate a horn on the side
> of the rudder, but a lot of model guys (me included) like the idea of
> pull-pulls, and toss the rod and horn and use kevlar thread on their
> models attached to two rudder horns, just like our 'foxes. The geometry
> gets a little involved sometimes, but no biggie.
Of course, Lynn. But I was thinking about replacing the existing cables by thin
rods in sleeves, like what we have as choke or carb heater controls. Not a
thick rod like for the elevator. Wouldn't that remove the need for a return
spring and prevent the fraying of the wire, as it happened for Johannes? Just wondering.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: in flight Elevator trimin flight Elevator trimin |
flight Elevator trim
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net> flight
Elevator trim
Murle Williams sells an electric trim actuator that I used on my
Model IV-1200. It's very light and easy to hook up. He has pictures
of my installation on his web site:
<http://murlewilliamsaviation.com/>. Click on the "On-line Catalog"
link at the top of the page.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 13
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| Subject: | Elevator Trim Pics |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Stoner" <john@dakotacubaircraft.com>
I have submitted photos of the elevator trim to the Matronics Photo Share.
They should be up in a couple of days, if I followed directions correctly.
I anyone wants the photos sent to them direct, please contact me directly.
john@dakotacubaircraft.com
Regards,
John Stoner
KF III, 582
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Float Rigging |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
Dan,
Frank Miller at Skystar indicated that they had much
of this information and would be happy to share it
with me as I get ready to get my Series 6 on floats.
Haven't purchased the floats yet, so I haven't tried
to take him up on his offer.
Fred
do not archive
>
> HI All. I've just bought a set of fiberglass floats
> manufactured by avid to
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Mods |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net
Hi Don, What kind of cruise speed you getting now ?
I just put Amphibs on with 582 and gettin 82 mph cruise.
even more fun now.
Kirby
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
> I finally got a chance to fly the plane today after completing the
cowl and radiator mods (overheating on hot days during climb). First
off, I noticed the taxi temps were a bit higher than before. They got
up to around 160 tops. During an extended full power climb, the temps
went up to around 172 max and during cruise, around 165. I also
noticed around a 5-10 MPH speed increase however, the prop pitch was a
shy too coarse. Could only get 6500 RPM during full throttle level
flight. The OAT's today were only 85 degrees but it looks like the
modifications might be giving me a more uniform coolant temp in all
conditions. Looking now for a 90+ degree day.
> Don Smythe
> Classic IV W/ 582
Message 16
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tim Kaser <kaser@cableone.net>
Vortex Generators on KF4.......Does anyone have experience finding the
sweet spot (line) on the wing? and would you be willing to enlighten
me? and/or the list?
Eager to learn
Tim Kaser
N316R KF4-1200
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tim Kaser <kaser@cableone.net>
Lets try this again with the correct subject.....
Vortex Generators on KF4.......Does anyone have experience finding the
sweet spot (line) on the wing? and would you be willing to enlighten
me? and/or the list?
Eager to learn
Tim Kaser
N316R KF4-1200
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Return Springs |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Hi Michel
Of course the answer to your question is yes and no. While it might be possible
to operate the rudder both left and right with just one pedal, the likelyhood
of a cable failure that allows that to happen goes down. That is, a rod can
slip and lock the rudder to the side in compression where the cable can not.
The rod can jam with a small piece of gravel that the cables would not have a
problem with. The rods can bend and lock inside the sleeve by misapplication
of the rudders. The cables can not fail in these additional ways. And you can
still have a case where one rod fails and you are only able to apply rudder
in one direction.
The Great Lakes Biplane had an AD on the rudder cables wearing thin where they
exit the side of the fuselage to connect to the rudder. It was amazing how few
hours it took to start seeing wear on the cables where the rubbed against the
leather reinforcement. So this is not a new problem.
Jim Shumaker
Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Wouldn't have to be,Michel....it could be like model planes do and have
> a long rod (like the elevator on the Kitfox) actuate a horn on the side
> of the rudder, but a lot of model guys (me included) like the idea of
> pull-pulls, and toss the rod and horn and use kevlar thread on their
> models attached to two rudder horns, just like our 'foxes. The geometry
> gets a little involved sometimes, but no biggie.
Of course, Lynn. But I was thinking about replacing the existing cables by thin
rods in sleeves, like what we have as choke or carb heater controls. Not a
thick rod like for the elevator. Wouldn't that remove the need for a return
spring and prevent the fraying of the wire, as it happened for Johannes? Just wondering.
Cheers,
Michel
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