---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/24/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:17 AM - wing tanks (jim cantrell) 2. 09:27 AM - Re: wing tanks (Lynn Matteson) 3. 10:04 AM - Re: wing tanks (Jim Crowder) 4. 10:40 AM - Re: wing tanks (Don Smythe) 5. 10:55 AM - Re: Exhaust Manifold Interference (Guy Buchanan) 6. 12:43 PM - Re: wing tanks (Randy Daughenbaugh) 7. 01:44 PM - Re: wing tanks (Lowell Fitt) 8. 01:49 PM - Re: wing tanks (Don Smythe) 9. 01:56 PM - Radiator Mods (Don Smythe) 10. 02:29 PM - Float Rigging (daniel johnson) 11. 02:35 PM - Re: Return Springs (Michel Verheughe) 12. 02:36 PM - Re: in flight Elevator trimin flight Elevator trimin (Michael Gibbs) 13. 03:04 PM - Elevator Trim Pics (John Stoner) 14. 07:19 PM - Re: Float Rigging (Fred Shiple) 15. 07:25 PM - Re: Radiator Mods (kitfox@gto.net) 16. 08:56 PM - Re: wing tanks (Tim Kaser) 17. 09:00 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Tim Kaser) 18. 09:32 PM - Re: Return Springs (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:11 AM PST US From: jim cantrell Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? Jim Cantrell Series 5 TD ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson Per Frank Miller @ Skystar, I flushed mine with acetone, DID NOT rinse with water, and sloshed with Kreem. The acetone is compatible with the Kreem, and water isn't. If you don't dry the water out COMPLETELY, you'll have some areas where the Kreem won't stick or worse. Mine were also 10-12 years old, and Frank said this method should be done. You're lucky, you had not installed your tanks yet...what fun, sloshing tanks alone, inside of a 12 ft long wing, inside the garage, in the winter....wear breathing protection, or do outside. Lynn On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:24 AM, jim cantrell wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with > acetone and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing > as per manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? > Jim Cantrell > Series 5 TD > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:07 AM PST US From: Jim Crowder Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder My tanks were flushed with acetone and NOT sloshed with any sealer. Three years with both auto fuel (with alcohol) and 100LL aviation fuel the past year and no leaks in the tanks. I did have the clear tubing for sight gauges fail at connections. I replaced this tubing with clear vinyl fuel line from auto supply store and it has worked with no problem or discoloration for a year. It has mostly sat in the hangar with only a couple of flights as I have too many projects going on. Retired life is hell. Jim Crowder At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > >Per Frank Miller @ Skystar, I flushed mine with acetone, DID NOT rinse >with water, and sloshed with Kreem. The acetone is compatible with the >Kreem, and water isn't. If you don't dry the water out COMPLETELY, >you'll have some areas where the Kreem won't stick or worse. Mine were >also 10-12 years old, and Frank said this method should be done. You're >lucky, you had not installed your tanks yet...what fun, sloshing tanks >alone, inside of a 12 ft long wing, inside the garage, in the >winter....wear breathing protection, or do outside. > >Lynn >On Wednesday, August 24, 2005, at 11:24 AM, jim cantrell wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > > > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with > > acetone and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing > > as per manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? > > Jim Cantrell > > Series 5 TD ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:21 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" You'll get several opinions on this. I would fill the tanks with "gasoline", plug all the holes and do a "MOUTH" only pressure test. If they don't leak, use as is. Kreeme is only designed to plug pin holes. If you don't have any then you don't need to plug them. Don Smythe Classic IV W/ 582 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim cantrell" Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone > and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per > manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? > Jim Cantrell > Series 5 TD > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:35 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Exhaust Manifold Interference --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan Thanks Jared. That's good news. At 07:34 PM 8/23/2005, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds > ... > Paint doesnt flake or fade at all. ... Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:37 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Jim, I think one issue that has not been mentioned is the material of construction of your tank. Someone may be able to set me straight on this, but I believe that Skystar changed the resin used in these tanks about 10 years ago. Before the change, the resin was not appropriate for use with gasoline containing ethanol and other additives. It worked with 100LL, but not the newer auto gas. I think that you need to check with Skystar to see what tanks you have. If it is the old ones, I think the kreem is appropriate. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim cantrell" Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone > and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per > manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? > Jim Cantrell > Series 5 TD > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:42 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Jim, Unfortunately, in my opinion, there is no right answer, but some ideas are better than others. This is my tank history. Kit recieved March 1993 with factory Kreemed tanks. I did nothing to them in spite of a failure on one of the early Alaska trip airplanes - Kreem came off in sheets and lots of discussion regarding Kreem with lots of reasonable thoughts and opinions. First flight September 1998 No problems at all until on one of the Idaho back country trips five years later. I noticed a number of small blisters on the Aerothane in the area betseen the filler neck and the inboard edge of the right Wing tank. This as I was wiping the dew off the top of the wings at a remote strip. I was flying with 100LL at the time. They reanged in size from pin point size to one aboit 1/4" in diameter. At first, I had no idea what the blisters were until I cut one off the big one with a razorblade and it was full of fuel. The myster to me is why the blisters as I didn't bond the fabric to the top of the wing, They between the Aerothane, and the Polyspray. Since I got no liquid fuel anywhere except in the blisteres, I continued to fly, but last annual I decided to remove the right wing and re-slosh. I rinsed with Acetone and dumb me, I supposed that with the pressure build up in the tank during the rinse stage, there would be residual Kreem forced into the pinholes - yeh right. I did two sloshes with Kreem anyway, but they were cursory at best because of my above mentioned thoughts. I fueled and believe it or not, after about a week, I had fuel dripping from the tank. What a mess. by this time I had cut up my wing jig to make a neat little work bench, so I got to make another one. This time I re-read the Kreem isntructions and sloshed again strictly according to the instructions. I wish I could say that everything is perfect, but I still get a slight fuel smell, but no blisters and no dripping fuel. Incidentally, the leaks were on the top of the tank. I am wondering if the Kreem "weathers" better when wet with fuel. Anyway, My recommendation is to go with the Kreem, but a year or three or even five is no evidence that all is or will be perfect. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim cantrell" Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell > > I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone > and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per > manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? > Jim Cantrell > Series 5 TD > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:04 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" This has been a discussion for years. Here is my "opinion". Assume you have a tank made of a fiberglass material that is "not" compatible with gasoline/additives. You put in Kreeme.....The Kreeme is designed to fill pin holes and I doubt very seriously (my opinion) that the Kreeme would coat the insides of the tank "sufficiently" to prevent gasoline form getting at "some" of the fiberglass. In that case, that 1/2 sq. inch (example) of fiberglass is going to be eaten by the dreaded gasoline/additives. My tanks are 95 vintage and came Kreemed from the Skystar "tank fabricator". The Kreeme cracked while the tanks were hanging on the wall. I physically cut open my tanks and went to great lengths to restore the insides. Among my findings, the Kreeme was either sprayed, painted or rolled on prior to the tank tops being epoxied on (they were not sloshed at the factory). I still had some small areas that were not covered in Kreeme (obvious by the masking tape lines on the inside of the tank tops). I bet you could Kreeme the inside of a Styrofoam container and gas would eat the Styrofoam all to pieces within a short time. I just simply don't think that Kreeme is a cure all for an inferior material as is being suggested by the earlier Skystar tanks. If the earlier tanks are subject to damage by gasoline then they should simply be replaced with a material that is OK for gasoline. I hope I didn't start something here. Don Smythe Classic IV W/ 582 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > > Jim, > I think one issue that has not been mentioned is the material of > construction of your tank. > > Someone may be able to set me straight on this, but I believe that Skystar > changed the resin used in these tanks about 10 years ago. Before the > change, the resin was not appropriate for use with gasoline containing > ethanol and other additives. It worked with 100LL, but not the newer auto > gas. > > I think that you need to check with Skystar to see what tanks you have. > If > it is the old ones, I think the kreem is appropriate. > > Randy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jim cantrell" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: wing tanks > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jim cantrell >> >> I have new 10 year old tanks that I have removed old kreem with acetone >> and flushed with water, I can not find any leaks after testing as per >> manual, question is, to reseal or install as is? >> Jim Cantrell >> Series 5 TD >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:59 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" I finally got a chance to fly the plane today after completing the cowl and radiator mods (overheating on hot days during climb). First off, I noticed the taxi temps were a bit higher than before. They got up to around 160 tops. During an extended full power climb, the temps went up to around 172 max and during cruise, around 165. I also noticed around a 5-10 MPH speed increase however, the prop pitch was a shy too coarse. Could only get 6500 RPM during full throttle level flight. The OAT's today were only 85 degrees but it looks like the modifications might be giving me a more uniform coolant temp in all conditions. Looking now for a 90+ degree day. Don Smythe Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:17 PM PST US From: "daniel johnson" Subject: Kitfox-List: Float Rigging --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" HI All. I've just bought a set of fiberglass floats manufactured by avid to use on my kitfox3. I'm new to float flying and may need a little assistance getting my rigging built/set up. The floats are 1200# displacement and should work finefor my ac gross weight. So far i know that my CG should lie a distance of 1/3 the widest width of the float aft of the step...or was it forward...i'll have to look that one up again. That part i can find. I'm also told the angle between wing chord and float topline should be 5-7 degrees tail low. I'd like to know the correct way to calculate the distance between float centerlines (how wide the spreader bars should be) and correct height of aircraft over floats. I'd also like to know what size and diameter tubing is commonly used. I'm planning to use some used wingstuts i've located...different sizes available to me. I'll also need to decide how to connect the water rudder. If you have experience with or own a kitfox on floats and can give me an idea of how your plane is rigged drop me a note. Dan Johnson. Columbus Ohio Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:20 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Return Springs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Lynn Matteson wrote: > Wouldn't have to be,Michel....it could be like model planes do and have > a long rod (like the elevator on the Kitfox) actuate a horn on the side > of the rudder, but a lot of model guys (me included) like the idea of > pull-pulls, and toss the rod and horn and use kevlar thread on their > models attached to two rudder horns, just like our 'foxes. The geometry > gets a little involved sometimes, but no biggie. Of course, Lynn. But I was thinking about replacing the existing cables by thin rods in sleeves, like what we have as choke or carb heater controls. Not a thick rod like for the elevator. Wouldn't that remove the need for a return spring and prevent the fraying of the wire, as it happened for Johannes? Just wondering. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:04 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs flight Elevator trim Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: in flight Elevator trimin flight Elevator trimin flight Elevator trim --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs flight Elevator trim Murle Williams sells an electric trim actuator that I used on my Model IV-1200. It's very light and easy to hook up. He has pictures of my installation on his web site: . Click on the "On-line Catalog" link at the top of the page. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:15 PM PST US From: "John Stoner" Subject: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim Pics --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Stoner" I have submitted photos of the elevator trim to the Matronics Photo Share. They should be up in a couple of days, if I followed directions correctly. I anyone wants the photos sent to them direct, please contact me directly. john@dakotacubaircraft.com Regards, John Stoner KF III, 582 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:27 PM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Float Rigging --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple Dan, Frank Miller at Skystar indicated that they had much of this information and would be happy to share it with me as I get ready to get my Series 6 on floats. Haven't purchased the floats yet, so I haven't tried to take him up on his offer. Fred do not archive > > HI All. I've just bought a set of fiberglass floats > manufactured by avid to ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Radiator Mods From: kitfox@gto.net --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox@gto.net Hi Don, What kind of cruise speed you getting now ? I just put Amphibs on with 582 and gettin 82 mph cruise. even more fun now. Kirby > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > I finally got a chance to fly the plane today after completing the cowl and radiator mods (overheating on hot days during climb). First off, I noticed the taxi temps were a bit higher than before. They got up to around 160 tops. During an extended full power climb, the temps went up to around 172 max and during cruise, around 165. I also noticed around a 5-10 MPH speed increase however, the prop pitch was a shy too coarse. Could only get 6500 RPM during full throttle level flight. The OAT's today were only 85 degrees but it looks like the modifications might be giving me a more uniform coolant temp in all conditions. Looking now for a 90+ degree day. > Don Smythe > Classic IV W/ 582 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:41 PM PST US From: Tim Kaser Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tim Kaser Vortex Generators on KF4.......Does anyone have experience finding the sweet spot (line) on the wing? and would you be willing to enlighten me? and/or the list? Eager to learn Tim Kaser N316R KF4-1200 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:08 PM PST US From: Tim Kaser Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Vortex Generators --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Tim Kaser Lets try this again with the correct subject..... Vortex Generators on KF4.......Does anyone have experience finding the sweet spot (line) on the wing? and would you be willing to enlighten me? and/or the list? Eager to learn Tim Kaser N316R KF4-1200 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:50 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Return Springs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker Hi Michel Of course the answer to your question is yes and no. While it might be possible to operate the rudder both left and right with just one pedal, the likelyhood of a cable failure that allows that to happen goes down. That is, a rod can slip and lock the rudder to the side in compression where the cable can not. The rod can jam with a small piece of gravel that the cables would not have a problem with. The rods can bend and lock inside the sleeve by misapplication of the rudders. The cables can not fail in these additional ways. And you can still have a case where one rod fails and you are only able to apply rudder in one direction. The Great Lakes Biplane had an AD on the rudder cables wearing thin where they exit the side of the fuselage to connect to the rudder. It was amazing how few hours it took to start seeing wear on the cables where the rubbed against the leather reinforcement. So this is not a new problem. Jim Shumaker Michel Verheughe wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Lynn Matteson wrote: > Wouldn't have to be,Michel....it could be like model planes do and have > a long rod (like the elevator on the Kitfox) actuate a horn on the side > of the rudder, but a lot of model guys (me included) like the idea of > pull-pulls, and toss the rod and horn and use kevlar thread on their > models attached to two rudder horns, just like our 'foxes. The geometry > gets a little involved sometimes, but no biggie. Of course, Lynn. But I was thinking about replacing the existing cables by thin rods in sleeves, like what we have as choke or carb heater controls. Not a thick rod like for the elevator. Wouldn't that remove the need for a return spring and prevent the fraying of the wire, as it happened for Johannes? Just wondering. Cheers, Michel