Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:51 AM - Re: Norway. WAS: Night VFR (Michael Gibbs)
2. 05:31 AM - Re: Trim assist for the elevator (Clifford Begnaud)
3. 08:56 AM - Re: Norway. (Michel Verheughe)
4. 09:49 AM - Re: Trim assist for the elevator (jdmcbean)
5. 10:00 AM - Re: Trim assist for the elevator (Don Pearsall)
6. 10:22 AM - Re: Trim assist for the elevator (jdmcbean)
7. 10:49 AM - Model 3 vs Model 4 (George Wells@adelphia.net)
8. 11:21 AM - Re: Grove Gear (Cudnohufsky's)
9. 11:26 AM - Re: Model 3 vs Model 4 (jdmcbean)
10. 01:36 PM - Re: Night VFR (Michel Verheughe)
11. 02:10 PM - ExperCraft build log (Robert Riggen)
12. 02:59 PM - engine will not shut down (Shane Sather)
13. 03:11 PM - Re: engine will not shut down (Don Pearsall)
14. 03:46 PM - Re: engine will not shut down (Don Pearsall)
15. 04:05 PM - test (Shane Sather)
16. 04:08 PM - Fw: engine will not shut down (Shane Sather)
17. 04:30 PM - test again (Shane Sather)
18. 04:51 PM - Re: engine will not shut down (Ted Palamarek)
19. 04:54 PM - Re: test again (Ted Palamarek)
20. 05:32 PM - Re: Rotax 912UL Fuel System (Lowell Fitt)
21. 05:32 PM - Re: wing tanks/ethynol (Lowell Fitt)
22. 05:56 PM - Re: ExperCraft build log ()
23. 06:49 PM - Re: Evans Coolant in the 912 series (kitfoxjunky)
24. 07:02 PM - 912s engine will not stop (Shane Sather)
25. 07:12 PM - Re: 912s engine will not stop (jdmcbean)
26. 07:40 PM - Re: 912s engine will not stop (Shane Sather)
27. 08:07 PM - Re:912 coolant (Lmar)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Norway. WAS: Night VFR |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Awesome photography, Michel!
Please be careful and bring along some survival gear, it looks like
you are often over very rugged and remote terrain.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Trim assist for the elevator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Rick
Think of it this way....
You are on approach and have the plane trimmed for 60 mph, you apply full
flaps and try to trim out the stick forces with elevator trim, but, you find
that you already had full nose up trim applied, so you have to hold the
stick in position. Since you ran out of trim this requires some effort to
hold the stick in the proper position, if you let go of the stick it will
move forward and the nose of the plane will drop. With me so far?
Now, imagine you had a passenger in the plane with you, Joe, and after
applying full flaps you asked Joe to hold the stick in position while you
scratched your, uh, uh, back, yeah back.
Now, you no longer have to hold any back pressure on the stick because Joe
is doing it for you. Have you lost any elevator authority by letting Joe
hold the stick in place instead of you doing it? Of course not. Well, it's
the same with the trim assist kit. Just think of it as Joe holding the stick
in place while you scratch some place the sun don't shine, your back ;-)
I hope this clears it up.
Cliff
Ps, John, why don't you rename the kit to "Joe, hold the stick for me"
>
> If I understand this. If I were at high density altitude and coming
> hot...oh
> yea Kitfox hot, with the trim assist activated by adding flaps, then I
> might
> not have as much elevator authority as I would have otherwise had by just
> adjusting the elevator with the actuator ram. Is that right?
>
> Rick
>
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
"Jose M. Toro" wrote:
> By the way, the twin-ultra looks interesting. Thanks for sharing!
Yes, I thought I still had the video link in my clipboard, but I had this one,
instead, hence the error. I was talking on another pilot list about accidents
occurring with twin engines, where pilots loose control when one fails, because
they are not properly trained to fly on one engine. This Norwegian twin engines
ultralight also experienced a similar accident. It is true that two engines is
safer than one, but it requires training to make it safe.
John Perry wrote:
> reminds me of the time i spent in Stavanger and flying over the fjords .
This was mainly filmed between Stavanger and Bergen, John.
Michael Gibbs wrote:
> Please be careful and bring along some survival gear, it looks like
> you are often over very rugged and remote terrain.
Flying such a terrain, I log in a flight plan, Mike. Hopefully, if something
goes wrong, the SeaKing helicopter should lift half an hour after ETA. I have
no intention to check how good Norwegian SAR are, though! :-) But I try to fly
straight, according to my reporting points because I want them to find me
easily. Otherwise, I think that the seat covers soaked in fuel/oil should be a
good position indicator when I hear the chopper. Matches? Well, I am,
unfortunately, still a smoker so that is not a problem.
Cheers,
Michel
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Trim assist for the elevator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Not a bad thought Cliff... :)
For some reason the last couple of posts did not make it to the list.. we'll
see if this one does..
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Rick
Think of it this way....
You are on approach and have the plane trimmed for 60 mph, you apply full
flaps and try to trim out the stick forces with elevator trim, but, you find
that you already had full nose up trim applied, so you have to hold the
stick in position. Since you ran out of trim this requires some effort to
hold the stick in the proper position, if you let go of the stick it will
move forward and the nose of the plane will drop. With me so far?
Now, imagine you had a passenger in the plane with you, Joe, and after
applying full flaps you asked Joe to hold the stick in position while you
scratched your, uh, uh, back, yeah back.
Now, you no longer have to hold any back pressure on the stick because Joe
is doing it for you. Have you lost any elevator authority by letting Joe
hold the stick in place instead of you doing it? Of course not. Well, it's
the same with the trim assist kit. Just think of it as Joe holding the stick
in place while you scratch some place the sun don't shine, your back ;-)
I hope this clears it up.
Cliff
Ps, John, why don't you rename the kit to "Joe, hold the stick for me"
>
> If I understand this. If I were at high density altitude and coming
> hot...oh
> yea Kitfox hot, with the trim assist activated by adding flaps, then I
> might
> not have as much elevator authority as I would have otherwise had by just
> adjusting the elevator with the actuator ram. Is that right?
>
> Rick
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Trim assist for the elevator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
John,
Sorry your post did not make it onto the list. Your next to last post is
from last night at 8:10 according to my system. When did you send the
others?
Don
List Janitor
Don Pearsall
Sound Appraisal
Seattle, WA USA
425-392.4627
FAX 425-557-0107
donpearsall@comcast.net
http://www.soundappraisal.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Not a bad thought Cliff... :)
For some reason the last couple of posts did not make it to the list.. we'll
see if this one does..
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Rick
Think of it this way....
You are on approach and have the plane trimmed for 60 mph, you apply full
flaps and try to trim out the stick forces with elevator trim, but, you find
that you already had full nose up trim applied, so you have to hold the
stick in position. Since you ran out of trim this requires some effort to
hold the stick in the proper position, if you let go of the stick it will
move forward and the nose of the plane will drop. With me so far?
Now, imagine you had a passenger in the plane with you, Joe, and after
applying full flaps you asked Joe to hold the stick in position while you
scratched your, uh, uh, back, yeah back.
Now, you no longer have to hold any back pressure on the stick because Joe
is doing it for you. Have you lost any elevator authority by letting Joe
hold the stick in place instead of you doing it? Of course not. Well, it's
the same with the trim assist kit. Just think of it as Joe holding the stick
in place while you scratch some place the sun don't shine, your back ;-)
I hope this clears it up.
Cliff
Ps, John, why don't you rename the kit to "Joe, hold the stick for me"
>
> If I understand this. If I were at high density altitude and coming
> hot...oh
> yea Kitfox hot, with the trim assist activated by adding flaps, then I
> might
> not have as much elevator authority as I would have otherwise had by just
> adjusting the elevator with the actuator ram. Is that right?
>
> Rick
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Trim assist for the elevator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
9:05 and 9:45.. No worries.. Could be on this end... seem to be going
thru now.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Pearsall
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
John,
Sorry your post did not make it onto the list. Your next to last post is
from last night at 8:10 according to my system. When did you send the
others?
Don
List Janitor
Don Pearsall
Sound Appraisal
Seattle, WA USA
425-392.4627
FAX 425-557-0107
donpearsall@comcast.net
http://www.soundappraisal.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Not a bad thought Cliff... :)
For some reason the last couple of posts did not make it to the list.. we'll
see if this one does..
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clifford Begnaud
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trim assist for the elevator
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
<shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Rick
Think of it this way....
You are on approach and have the plane trimmed for 60 mph, you apply full
flaps and try to trim out the stick forces with elevator trim, but, you find
that you already had full nose up trim applied, so you have to hold the
stick in position. Since you ran out of trim this requires some effort to
hold the stick in the proper position, if you let go of the stick it will
move forward and the nose of the plane will drop. With me so far?
Now, imagine you had a passenger in the plane with you, Joe, and after
applying full flaps you asked Joe to hold the stick in position while you
scratched your, uh, uh, back, yeah back.
Now, you no longer have to hold any back pressure on the stick because Joe
is doing it for you. Have you lost any elevator authority by letting Joe
hold the stick in place instead of you doing it? Of course not. Well, it's
the same with the trim assist kit. Just think of it as Joe holding the stick
in place while you scratch some place the sun don't shine, your back ;-)
I hope this clears it up.
Cliff
Ps, John, why don't you rename the kit to "Joe, hold the stick for me"
>
> If I understand this. If I were at high density altitude and coming
> hot...oh
> yea Kitfox hot, with the trim assist activated by adding flaps, then I
> might
> not have as much elevator authority as I would have otherwise had by just
> adjusting the elevator with the actuator ram. Is that right?
>
> Rick
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Model 3 vs Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells@adelphia.net" <georgewells@adelphia.net>
Can someone (like John McLean) tell me the difference between a Model 3 & $. Are
interior dimensions the same ?
Thanks,
George
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net>
Rick,
Mostly damage was on the Horizontal stabilizer, my elevator is mostly
repairable but depending what you want for it may be worth my while to pick
up and save me some repair time. I will check with my brother who lives
outside the DC area and see if he is willing to pickup the wind screen for
me.
Thanks,
Lloyd
P.S. Will try calling you a little latter tonight, on my way out the door
with my family.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Mdkitfox@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Grove Gear
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mdkitfox@aol.com
>
> Lloyd,
>
> I have the elevator for a model V. You can give me a call if this would
> help you. 301-805-9584
>
> Rick Weiss
> Series V Speedster N39RW, 912S
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Model 3 vs Model 4 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
If you haven't already checked the history page out then try this first...
http://www.skystar.com/Aircraft_History.htm
There are several differences but the initial main change was the wing
design. The 3 had a high lift wing. I believe the cabin widths were the
same.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of George
Wells@adelphia.net
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model 3 vs Model 4
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "George Wells@adelphia.net"
<georgewells@adelphia.net>
Can someone (like John McLean) tell me the difference between a Model 3 & $.
Are interior dimensions the same ?
Thanks,
George
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Andrew Matthaey wrote:
> I'm still grinning ear-to-ear, two hours later! What a privilege!
Good for you, Andrew! And thanks for the PIREP.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | ExperCraft build log |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Riggen" <rob@riggen.org>
Fellow builders,
This is an invite to those who need a method for creating a project log.
ExperCraft Simple Log is free for builders and is a great way to create a
comprehensive log and Web site. It's very easy to use.
http://www.expercraft.com
Enjoy!
Rob
--
Rob Riggen
building a Vans RV7
http://websites.expercraft.com/rriggen
Message 12
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| Subject: | engine will not shut down |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>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Message 13
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| Subject: | engine will not shut down |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Shane, It looks like you tried to post a binary file to the list. It was
translated to ASCII characters.
Posting files and photos to the list is against the rules and is not
possible. Please explain.
Don Pearsall
List Janitor
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather
Subject: Kitfox-List: engine will not shut down
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>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Message 14
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| Subject: | engine will not shut down |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Shane, what email client do you use? Whichever one it is, try to find a
setting to just post in "Plain Text."
I use MS Outlook. You can set it to plain text by clicking TOOLS > OPTIONS >
MAIL FORMAT. Outlook express may be different. But I am sure that the email
program you are using is trying to send in HTML or binary format.
Please post again and let's see what happens.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Sather [mailto:shane2005@qiniq.com]
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: engine will not shut down
How do I correct this.
Shane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: engine will not shut down
> Shane, It looks like you tried to post a binary file to the list. It was
> translated to ASCII characters.
>
> Posting files and photos to the list is against the rules and is not
> possible. Please explain.
>
> Don Pearsall
> List Janitor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:59 PM
> To: Kitfox list
> Subject: Kitfox-List: engine will not shut down
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
>
>
SSBoYXZlIGEgOTEyIFMgYW5kIEkgYW0gaGF2aW5nIG1hZyBwcm9ibGVtcyBvciBhIHdpcmUgcHJv
>
YmxlbSBub3cuIFRoZSBlbmdpbmUgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2h1dCBkb3duIHdpdGggdGhlIGtleSB0dXJu
>
ZWQgb2ZmLg0KDQpXaGVuIEkgZG8gYSBtYWcgY2hlY2sgb25seSBvbmUgbWFnIHdpbGwgcmVkdWNl
>
IHRoZSBSUE1zLCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgYXBwZWFycyB0byByZW1haW4gb3BlbiwgSSBndWVzcy4NCg0K
>
SG93IGNhbiBJIGRldGVybWluZSB3aGF0IHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGlzPw0KDQpJIGRpZCBub3RpY2Ug
>
YSBjcmFja2VkIGdyZWVuIHdpcmUgY29taW5nIGZyb20gdGhlIHRvcCBDREkgYm94IGFuZCBJIGRp
>
ZCBtYW5hZ2UgdG8gcmVwYWlyIHRoYXQgYnV0IEkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCB3YXMgbm90IHRoZSBwcm9i
>
bGVtIGFzIHRoZSBlbmdpbmUgc3RpbGwgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2h1dCBvZmYuDQoNCkFueSBpZGVhcyBv
> dXQgdGhlcmU/DQoNClNoYW5l
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
RG9lcyB0aGlzIHdvcmsgbm93DQoNClNoYW5l
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Fw: engine will not shut down |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>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Message 17
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
Testing one two three. All test is plain.
Shane
Message 18
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| Subject: | engine will not shut down |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Shane
Your messages are still coming out unreadable
Ted
Edmonton, Ab
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Shane Sather
Subject: Kitfox-List: engine will not shut down
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather"
<shane2005@qiniq.com>
SSBoYXZlIGEgOTEyIFMgYW5kIEkgYW0gaGF2aW5nIG1hZyBwcm9ibGVtcyBv
ciBhIHdpcmUgcHJv
YmxlbSBub3cuIFRoZSBlbmdpbmUgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2h1dCBkb3duIHdpdGgg
dGhlIGtleSB0dXJu
ZWQgb2ZmLg0KDQpXaGVuIEkgZG8gYSBtYWcgY2hlY2sgb25seSBvbmUgbWFn
IHdpbGwgcmVkdWNl
IHRoZSBSUE1zLCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgYXBwZWFycyB0byByZW1haW4gb3Blbiwg
SSBndWVzcy4NCg0K
SG93IGNhbiBJIGRldGVybWluZSB3aGF0IHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGlzPw0KDQpJ
IGRpZCBub3RpY2Ug
YSBjcmFja2VkIGdyZWVuIHdpcmUgY29taW5nIGZyb20gdGhlIHRvcCBDREkg
Ym94IGFuZCBJIGRp
ZCBtYW5hZ2UgdG8gcmVwYWlyIHRoYXQgYnV0IEkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCB3YXMg
bm90IHRoZSBwcm9i
bGVtIGFzIHRoZSBlbmdpbmUgc3RpbGwgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2h1dCBvZmYuDQoN
CkFueSBpZGVhcyBv
dXQgdGhlcmU/DQoNClNoYW5l
==
==
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ted Palamarek" <temco@telusplanet.net>
Shane
This test came through ok --- must be in plain text.
Ted
Edmonton, AB
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Shane Sather
Subject: Kitfox-List: test again
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather"
<shane2005@qiniq.com>
Testing one two three. All test is plain.
Shane
==
==
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912UL Fuel System |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Lyle sorry my last post was directed to Guy by mistake.
Do not archive
Loewll
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Persels" <lpers@mchsi.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912UL Fuel System
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lyle Persels <lpers@mchsi.com>
>
> Thanks to all who responded to my post reporting fuel system
> problemswith my Model IV/912UL. I've thoroughly checked most, but not
> all, of the suggested possible problem areas. I'll persevere, and if I
> am able to identify the problem sources, I'll report my findings.
> Meanwhile, a question:
>
> Cliff, and many previous posts, have emphasized the absolute necessity
> of routing the fuel lines from the wing tanks to the header tanks so
> that they have a continuous downslope. While I've done this with care,
> it doesn't seem to me that it is absolutely necessary, so long as there
> is a positive gravity pressure head between the top of the fuel level in
> the wing tank and the inlet to the header tank AND so long as no part of
> the line is higher than the top of the fuel level in the wing tank.
> Comments?
>
> And again, the question on the fuel pump. Does anyone know whether is
> any "useful suction" created by the fuel pump. If not, there would be no
> fuel flow to the pump in situations where the highest point in the
> system fuel supply was below the level of the pump inlet. This would
> occur if the aircraft were in a nose-high attitude with fuel in the
> header tank only. This condition, of course, would rarely, if ever,
> occur. Just trying to get a better handle on the operation of the entire
> fuel system.
>
> Lyle
>
>
> Clifford Begnaud wrote:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud"
>><shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
>>
>>Lyle,
>>Fuel problems can be difficult to diagnose, but there is a long list of
>>things to look for. There could have been a blockage that dislodged when
>>you
>>moved the plane which could block things again.
>>I won't try to specifically address your problem, instead I'm going put up
>>a
>>laundry list of things that can affect your fuel system. Start at the
>>beginning...
>>
>>1) Kreme; can block finger strainers, clog up filters, fuel lines, header
>>tank ports, fuel pump, carbs or anything in your fuel system. Search
>>archives for cure.
>>
>>2) Mold release; fiberglass mold release is sometimes not completely
>>removed
>>from the tanks. It can clog up your fuel system at many points. It can
>>also
>>just get stuck in your fuel line making it hard to diagnose unless you
>>remove the line and look thru it. It looks like little pieces of clear
>>silicon caulk. Requires a cure similar to Kreme.
>>
>>3) Fiberglass particles; the baffles in the tanks have holes punched in
>>them
>>to allow fuel to pass. The edges of these holes are not sealed thus
>>allowing
>>fiberglass particles to escape. The particles are very small and cannot be
>>seen when wet, but they WILL clog up fuel filters. For the first several
>>hundred hours, fuel filters should be changed every 25-50 hours. No
>>kidding,
>>this can be a serious problem and you'll never know it if you don't
>>examine
>>the inside of a fuel filter. They clogged up my glass purolator filter but
>>I
>>couldn't see the particles. However, they did cause a slight brown color
>>to
>>be evident on the filter. When I removed and cleaned the filter, you could
>>then see and feel the particles. After several hundred hours the release
>>of
>>the particles will cease or at least slow to a point where it's no longer
>>a
>>problem.
>>
>>4) MIL-H-6000 fuel line. If you use this hose, which was and may still be
>>provided by skystar, and you use auto gas, GET RID OF THIS FUEL LINE!!!.
>>This fuel line cannot tolerate the additives in auto gas. There are a few
>>parts of the country where it has not been a problem, but for the majority
>>of the US you are playing Russian roulette with 5 bullets in a 6 shot
>>revolver if you use this fuel line with auto gas. This fuel line can swell
>>and restrict fuel flow or even completely cut it off. Also, it degrades so
>>much that the inside of the hose can slough off and clog filters and
>>carbs.
>>
>>5) Finger strainers; first be certain that they are installed. Second,
>>check that they are not clogged with debris.
>>
>>6) Continuous downslope of fuel line from wing to header tank. Allow NO
>>point in the fuel line where it goes up hill, including over the root rib
>>of
>>the wing.
>>
>>7) Do you have the proper fuel line diameter for your engine?
>>
>>8) Pinched fuel lines. Check that your fuel line is not being pinched
>>somewhere along the way. Also, look for places where the fuel line is
>>being
>>abraded. You don't want to wear a hole in it.
>>
>>9) Fuel filter installed between header tank and fuel pump?
>>
>>10) NO paper fuel filters. Paper absorbs water and once saturated can
>>block
>>fuel flow.
>>
>>11) Fuel pump working? I've never heard of a failed mechanical pump on a
>>912, but I'm sure it could happen.
>>
>>12) Fuel line connections secure? If any connection in your fuel line
>>between the header tank and carb is not absolutely tight and secure, it
>>could disrupt fuel flow. Loose connections between header and pump will
>>allow air to enter and likely cause cavitation in fuel pump.
>>
>>13) Carburetors. There's lots of things that can go wrong with the bing
>>carb
>>and I won't try to describe them, but check that the floats are not
>>sticking. If you think that the carbs are the problem, there are others
>>here
>>on the list that are very knowledgeable about the bing carbs.
>>
>>14) Excessive engine vibration. This could disrupt the operation of the
>>carbs causing the floats or other parts to stick and stop fuel flow.
>>Excessive engine vibration can be caused by unsynchronized carbs, improper
>>blade alignment (runout) and blades not being pitched the same. Also can
>>be
>>caused by broken engine mounts, loose engine mount bolts, worn mount
>>bushings, worn out gear boxes and others things I can't think of right
>>now.
>>
>>15) Throttle cable. Be certain that is not binding, sticking or otherwise
>>capable of improper operation.
>>
>>This is by no means everything that can affect your fuel system, but is a
>>good list to start with. These are things that every kitfox owner should
>>check. The fuel system on the Kitfox is actually an excellent system, but
>>there are many things can go wrong if you don't understand it in it's
>>entirety.
>>
>>Good luck,
>>Cliff
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have a standard fuel system (28 gallons plus header) and engine
>>>installation in my 1994 Model IV/912UL with 400 hours. Last week, while
>>>taxiing out for takeoff, the engine sputtered and stopped completely as
>>>though it had just run out of gas. After pushing the aircraft back to
>>>the hangar, I checked the carburetor float bowls and confirmed that the
>>>engine had stopped because of fuel starvation. I then drained between
>>>six and seven gallons of fuel out of the aircraft. The flow was free and
>>>normal.
>>>
>>>Other than fuel blockage, what should I look for?
>>>
>>>Does the fuel pump create any vacuum at all, or must there be a positive
>>>gravity feed to the inlet at all times?
>>>
>>>Lyle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: wing tanks/ethynol |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Guy, Just back from the Midwest.
One pilot posted a report a bunch of years ago on a fuel starvation issue on
his plane and traced it to fiberglass fibers that coated his gascolator
screen. When he shut down the fibers sunk to the bottom of the gascolator
allowing good fuel flow until they gradually surfaced and shut it down
again.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing tanks/ethynol
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> Unfortunately my builder didn't think of this. I intend to build a wire
> that I can clamp to the filler neck, and it has a chain that dangles to
> the
> bottom of the tank. The other end of the wire I'll temporarily ground to
> nearby bare metal; either something on the wing or the fuselage. The truck
> will attach it's ground to the exhaust, as usual, or to something on the
> gear. Maybe I'll fabricate an attachment for them.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: ExperCraft build log |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <highwaystar47@yahoo.com>
Good find! Thanks for the invite. And, it is easy TOO! What fun.
Steve
Robert Riggen <rob@riggen.org> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Robert Riggen"
Fellow builders,
This is an invite to those who need a method for creating a project log.
ExperCraft Simple Log is free for builders and is a great way to create a
comprehensive log and Web site. It's very easy to use.
http://www.expercraft.com
Enjoy!
Rob
--
Rob Riggen
building a Vans RV7
http://websites.expercraft.com/rriggen
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Evans Coolant in the 912 series |
Serialize complete at 09/10/2005 09:49:10 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
So Paul. Was the info from the seminar I attended inaccurate. Does the
Evans coolant not run at zero pressure??
Gary Walsh
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
09/09/2005 04:46 PM
Please respond to kitfox-list
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Evans Coolant in the 912 series
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
This subject needs to be side tracked ASAP. There is no such thing a
zero pressure liquid Evans included. The vapor pressure may be less
that a E Glycol mix but if you loose coolant the pressure will rise
until it stabilizes at the boiling point.
BTW, The Evans coolant specified by Rotax is NOT 100% Propoline
Glycol I think it has EG and other chemical in it to meed the Rotax
requirements.
Regards, Paul
================
At 08:48 AM 9/9/2005, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
>I didn't follow the past thread and didn't realize the Evans was "zero"
>pressure. What kind of reservoir cap do you install? One that's vented?
>Sounds like a good theory about loosing less coolant with a leak.
>
>Don Smythe
>Classic IV W/ 582
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- >
> > That is why there is a new cap for the reservoir. The standard 50/50
> > glycol mix runs at about 10 psi..and goes up with altitude. If you
have a
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | 912s engine will not stop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
I will try to send this again.
My 912s will not shut off. A bad wire or mag, am not sure. When I do the run
up only one mag will reduce rpms. So I am guessing that I have maybe a short
and the circut is open and therefore the motor will not stop as it should.
I did look at some of the wires and did find a green wire coming from the
top CDI unit, that had a break in it. I was able to repair that but no
difference in shut down.
So should I be looking for a bad ground wire.
Any ideas?
Shane from way up North
Message 25
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| Subject: | 912s engine will not stop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Shane,
Check your P-leads They are the two beige colored wires and not part of
the connector.. Very common.
John McBean
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Shane Sather
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s engine will not stop
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
I will try to send this again.
My 912s will not shut off. A bad wire or mag, am not sure. When I do the run
up only one mag will reduce rpms. So I am guessing that I have maybe a short
and the circut is open and therefore the motor will not stop as it should.
I did look at some of the wires and did find a green wire coming from the
top CDI unit, that had a break in it. I was able to repair that but no
difference in shut down.
So should I be looking for a bad ground wire.
Any ideas?
Shane from way up North
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 912s engine will not stop |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
John
Where about should these beige wires be located. What are they attached to.
Thanks for the information.
Shane
----- Original Message -----
From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s engine will not stop
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
>
> Shane,
> Check your P-leads They are the two beige colored wires and not
> part of
> the connector.. Very common.
>
> John McBean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Shane Sather
> To: Kitfox list
> Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s engine will not stop
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Shane Sather" <shane2005@qiniq.com>
>
> I will try to send this again.
>
> My 912s will not shut off. A bad wire or mag, am not sure. When I do the
> run
> up only one mag will reduce rpms. So I am guessing that I have maybe a
> short
> and the circut is open and therefore the motor will not stop as it should.
> I did look at some of the wires and did find a green wire coming from the
> top CDI unit, that had a break in it. I was able to repair that but no
> difference in shut down.
>
> So should I be looking for a bad ground wire.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Shane from way up North
>
>
>
Message 27
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lmar <my93avid@yahoo.com>
Rotax Discussion
I attended the 7/28/04 8:30am "Rotax 912 and 912S Basic Engine Maintenance" forum.
Here are the notes I took from the session.
Eric Tucker, works for Kodiak Research, the Rotax Importer for the US. http://www.kodiakbs.com/. They sell engines to Lockwood Aviation Supply, California Power Systems etc. Eric was shown as the presenter in the program, but in fact he was backup for Phil Lockwood.
Phil Lockwood did most of the presentation. He is the owner/manager of Lockwood
Aviation Supply.
The presentation applied to all Rotax four stroke engines. 912, 912S, 914, certified
and non certified versions. I'll use 91x to indicate all these engines in
the following notes.
Through out the presentation, both Phil and Eric stressed that the 91x family of
engines, once running, will get you to your destination. They may self destruct
in the process. Loss of all the coolant will result in overheating; engine
would keep running, but will likely warp the heads. They implied the engines
would run without oil for a long time - again, the engine may not restart after
this abuse. I believe there were other examples that I did not write down.
Oil discussion:
- Recommend maximum 50 hour oil change. This is more frequent than the manual states
for some conditions.
- Pre-oil the new oil filter when doing an oil change. (That is fill the filter
with new oil before installing it on the engine. Some discussion about mess followed,
and Eric said to at least fill the new filter half way with oil, then
it could be installed without pouring the oil out.)
- When installing the filter, max three quarter turn after rubber gasket makes
contact with the engine case. DO NOT turn filter until the filter touches the
case.
- Oil formulations have been changing during the last several years. The newer
oils foam more. This can cause problems in the 91x family.
- The oil dipstick change was because of the foaming.
- Recommend keeping the oil tank near the top of the range.
- Proper way to check oil is to rotate the prop in the normal direction until the
oil tank gurgles. Then check the level in the tank.
- DO NOT rotate the prop backwards. This can pull oil out of the engine. A few
degrees of backward rotation is not a problem. A full rotation of the prop could
be a problem.
- When changing the oil, just remove the oil tank drain plug to empty the oil tank
and change the oil filter. DO NOT try to get ALL the oil out. Some customers
who have had oil related problems have rotated the prop backwards to pump the
oil out of the engine during their oil changes.
- Need to use motorcycle type oil because the 91x family shares the crankcase oil
with the gearbox oil - like most motorcycles. This oil has additives to protect
the gears.
- Castrol GPS and Motul have been REMOVED from the recommend list because of foaming.
- Penzoil motorcycle oil is OK to use
- Any semi synthetic motorcycle oil is OK to use.
- Honda motorcycle oil will not be listed as OK to use because Honda is possible
competitor, but the Honda motorcycle oil is OK to use.
- California Power Systems AV-9 showed some foaming in testing and is currently
being reformulated.
- DO NOT use pure synthetic oil when using 100LL fuel. Pure synthetic will not
hold the lead in suspension properly.
Cooling discussion:
- Recommend CHT operation in 180F to 240F range. Also recommend max of 125C which
is higher than 240F.
- It is normal for EGT and CHT to be different on each side.
- No real value to having EGT.
- IF the center of the CHT sensors supplied with the engine are gone, then the
engine has been TOO HOT. The center of the sensor has melted.
- There is a new higher pressure radiator cap available. Eric did not seem to enthusiastic
about it. Typically raises the temperature before releasing pressure
about 10C.
- Use phosphate free coolant.
- Use silicate free coolant.
- Dexcool coolant works well.
- Don't mix green and orange coolant. Flush system if changing.
- Recommended minimum of 50% coolant (with remainder being distilled water).
- If having trouble with coolant/distilled water boiling, may need to move to highest
recommend concentration of coolant as recommended by coolant manufacture.
- If still having trouble with coolant/distilled water boiling, using Evans coolant
is OK. Evans coolant does not use water and runs without a pressurized cap.
Fuel:
- If flying over 12,000ft, recommended using avgas to avoid vapor locking.
Carburetors:
- Keep the carbs synchronized. Check every 100 hours. Check at idle and just off
idle.
- Recommend 1800 rpm as minimum idle speed to maximize gearbox life.
- Recommend overhauling the carbs every 600 hours.
- Choke (enricher) only works with the throttle fully closed.
- Recommended running 2200-2400 RPM just after start until engine will idle smoothly
below this speed.
Gearbox discussion:
- Recommend 912S engines be upgraded to the slipper clutch. There is increased
possibility of kickback with the slipper clutch. Therefore, this also requires
the upgraded starter at the same time. There is a reduced cost upgrade program
available.
- Recommended having gear box serviced every 300 hours of operation for 912S without
the slipper clutch (over run clutch).
- There was a recommendation to check the gearbox play every 100 (?) hours of operation.
The discussion followed what is in the manual. This is for engines which
do not have the slipper clutch. Sorry, I'm not sure of the frequency that
was recommended.
- Would not try to hand prop a Rotax 912S. Much higher compression than the 912
or the 914.
There was a discussion about the service bulletins. Basically, there are bulletins
because the factory continues to develop the engines. The development is the
result of customer/user feedback. Service bulletins are only required for certified
versions of the engines in certified planes. The service bulletins are
a good idea for the non certified engines.
I hope some of you find this posting useful.
Regards,
Roy
N601RT: CH601HDS, nose gear, Rotax 912ULS, All electric, IFR equipped, 270hrs,
338 landings
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