Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:22 AM - Gyros (Fox5flyer)
2. 07:51 AM - Re: Gyros (Don Pearsall)
3. 08:08 AM - Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin)
4. 08:16 AM - Re: Gyros (kitfoxjunky)
5. 08:19 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Clifford Begnaud)
6. 08:20 AM - Re: Gyros (Clifford Begnaud)
7. 08:25 AM - rod end part # (Brett M)
8. 08:26 AM - Re: Gyros (Fred Shiple)
9. 08:34 AM - Electric Gyros (Fox5flyer)
10. 08:56 AM - Re: cargo pod. (kitfoxjunky)
11. 08:57 AM - Re: Electric Gyros (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
12. 09:12 AM - Kitfox Slats (Brian J. Pankonin)
13. 09:13 AM - Re: Gyros (Steve Zakreski)
14. 09:37 AM - Re: Kitfox Slats (matt msg.05.23.05.04:21:08.26754 msg.05.23.05.04:21:08.26790 msg.05.23.05.06:30:00.19402 msg.05.23.05.07:05:35.29938 msg.05.23.05.08:42:28.21575 msg.05.23.05.08:42:28.21582 msg.05.23.05.08:57:10.6698 msg.05.23.05.10:00:04.32377 msg.05.23.05.11:00:42.31353 msg.05.23.05.11:21:06.24674 msg.05.23.05.11:23:26.28832 msg.05.23.05.12:11:57.25083 msg.05.23.05.12:28:45.16902 msg.05.23.05.12:30:46.1343 msg.05.23.05.15:43:11.15724 msg.05.23.05.15:51:21.28004 msg.05.23.05.16:50:42.4473 msg.05.23.05.20:16:01.11220 msg.05.23.05.21:41:19.17147 msg.05.23.05.21:56:05.11810 msg.05.23.05.22:11:26.1600 msg.05.23.05.22:11:29.2888 msg.05.23.05.22:16:47.12967 msg.09.11.05.23:59:51.9550 msg.09.21.05.07:22:58.18710 msg.09.21.05.07:51:01.23923 msg.09.21.05.08:08:08.17505 msg.09.21.05.08:16:15.27177 msg.09.21.05.08:19:21.31824 msg.09.21.05.08:20:53.3254 msg.09.21.05.08:25:45.9193 msg.09.21.05.08:26:50.12194 msg.09.21.05.08:34:13.22003 msg.09.21.05.08:56:44.24879 msg.09.21.05.08:57:23.27867 msg.09.21.05.09:12:58.15546 msg.09.21.05.09:13:30.17783 msg.09.21.05.09:37:19.22454 msg.09.21.05.09:38:01.25419 msg.09.21.05.10:16:03.12489 msg.09.21.05.10:24:06.23376 msg.09.21.05.11:33:19.10543 msg.09.21.05.12:30:49.23890 msg.09.21.05.13:18:03.13435 msg.09.21.05.13:59:59.31953 msg.09.21.05.14:21:55.28411 msg.09.21.05.14:21:55.28541 msg.09.21.05.14:49:19.27381 msg.09.21.05.15:05:29.13600 msg.09.21.05.15:55:38.10528 msg.09.21.05.16:00:04.20375 msg.09.21.05.16:01:16.23392 msg.09.21.05.16:07:02.2810 msg.09.21.05.16:37:24.7507 msg.09.21.05.16:52:13.24382 msg.09.21.05.16:58:29.31902 msg.09.21.05.23:54:22.27622 msg.09.21.05.23:54:24.29406 old_messages web_browse.day.0 web_browse.day.1 web_browse.day.2 web_browse.day.3 web_browse.day.4 web_browse.day.5 web_browse.day.6)
15. 09:38 AM - Re: Gyros (wwillyard@aol.com)
16. 10:16 AM - Needi installation help for MGL displays. (Don Pearsall)
17. 10:24 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (mscotter@comcast.net)
18. 11:33 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Guy Buchanan)
19. 12:30 PM - S5 Outback Empty weight (Kerry Skyring)
20. 01:18 PM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin)
21. 01:59 PM - Re: Gyros (Michel Verheughe)
22. 02:21 PM - Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium (Harry Tucker)
23. 02:21 PM - Ivo Prop Medium on Kitfox series 4 and 7 (Harry Tucker)
24. 02:49 PM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin)
25. 03:05 PM - electric gyros (Fox5flyer)
26. 03:55 PM - Re: electric gyros (Don Pearsall)
27. 04:00 PM - Re: Gyros (Fox5flyer)
28. 04:01 PM - Re: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium (Lowell Fitt)
29. 04:07 PM - Re: electric gyros (Clifford Begnaud)
30. 04:37 PM - Re: Electric Gyros (Fox5flyer)
31. 04:52 PM - Re: Gyros (Fox5flyer)
32. 04:58 PM - Re: electric gyros (Fox5flyer)
33. 11:54 PM - Wiring under center console (Joel Mapes)
34. 11:54 PM - Re: Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my
S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions
at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon
or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision?
I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Deke
S5
NE Michigan
65f, clear and calm
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Hey Deke,
Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for
sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display unit.
It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with
solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow displays.
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd
versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with
the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Deke
S5
NE Michigan
65f, clear and calm
Message 3
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| Subject: | Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the
KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve
low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where
I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is
an interest in such a thing?
Thanks for any info.
Brian
Message 4
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Serialize complete at 09/21/2005 11:15:23 AM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
Just saw a solid state unit in a F1 today. Cost $ 2.5K. Had horizon, DG,
accerometer, VSI and a ton more. Forget the brand name..started with a
"D". Dyna something.
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Well I can't think of a better place than right here. Keep in mind that the
models 4, 5, 6, & 7 all have the same basic wing. I would like to know more
about it, especially how it attaches.
Cliff
S5, Lyc 0-235
>
> Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the
> KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve
> low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
> I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where
> I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is
> an interest in such a thing?
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Deke,
Have you seen this:
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
clif
>
> I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
> to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
> experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about
> before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> Thanks,
> Deke
> S5
> NE Michigan
> 65f, clear and calm
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Brett M <landairsea175@yahoo.com>
Hi everyone
I am soon to be building a 1050 gross model 4 that is partially completed project.
The problem is that the fellow I bought it from previously sold the wing
struts to someone else. The agreement is that he buys new struts before delivery.
He finally received the struts from skystar after 60+ days. They forgot
to include the 4 female rod ends. After a lengthy phone call I found out the
won't get them for 2 more weeks. I need to get the plane before the weather
turns. Would anyone happen to have a part # for these ends that would allow me
to order them from AC Spruce or another source.
Thank you,
Brett Mckinney
Rhinelander WI
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
Deke,
Have you looked at Dynon's EFIS. I've flown it in a friend's RV-6 and it works
well after you get used to the display. He had a good experience with their after
sales support. You should be able to get into it for what you'll have in the
A.I. and gyro ($2200).
Fred
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except
for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two
extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros
and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of
any that use 3 1/8" cut outs?
Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a
little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to
separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of
the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of
information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are simple
and that's what my simple mind needs.
I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
<donpearsall@comcast.net>
>
> Hey Deke,
> Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for
> sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display
unit.
> It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with
> solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow
displays.
>
> http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> To: Kitfox List
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
>
> I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
> to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
non-TSOd
> versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
with
> the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
> buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> Thanks,
> Deke
> S5
> NE Michigan
> 65f, clear and calm
>
>
Message 10
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Serialize complete at 09/21/2005 11:56:14 AM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
Anyone fabricate their own pod? Is the only option to purchase it through
Skystar, or are there some third party alternatives out there? Anyone got
a used Pod they would be willing to part with that will fit a MDL IV?
Gary Walsh
KF IV Anphib 912S
C-GOOT
www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the
top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you
have the side to side clearance for the oblong face.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
>
> Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except
> for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two
> extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros
> and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of
> any that use 3 1/8" cut outs?
> Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a
> little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to
> separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of
> the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of
> information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are simple
> and that's what my simple mind needs.
> I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any.
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Pearsall"
> To:
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
>
> >
> > Hey Deke,
> > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for
> > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display
> unit.
> > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with
> > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow
> displays.
> >
> > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
> >
> > Don Pearsall
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> > To: Kitfox List
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> >
> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> non-TSOd
> > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
> with
> > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
> > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> > Thanks,
> > Deke
> > S5
> > NE Michigan
> > 65f, clear and calm
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the
top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you
have the side to side clearance for the oblong face.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <MORID@NORTHLAND.LIB.MI.US>
Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except
for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two
extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros
and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of
any that use 3 1/8" cut outs?
Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a
little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to
separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of
the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of
information on them, but possibly too much. Con
ventional gyros are simple
and that's what my simple mind needs.
I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Pearsall" <DONPEARSALL@COMCAST.NET>
To: <KITFOX-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
<DONPEARSALL@COMCAST.NET>
Hey Deke,
Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for
sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display
unit.
It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with
solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow
displays.
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
&g
t;
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
To: Kitfox List
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <MORID@NORTHLAND.LIB.MI.US>
I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
non-TSOd
versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
with
the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Deke
S5
NE Michigan
65f, clear and calm <B
R>
Message 12
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
Cliff
I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I
then designed a attach bracket that extends around the spar to the
top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets
along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32
pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the bracket
with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1
8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every
other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the
brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin
with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of .032
sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and
so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but
will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets
on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds.
The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making
the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post
if interest is there.
Brian.
Message 13
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski <szakreski@shaw.ca>
Deke
This does not answer your question but...
I have a AI and DG on my IV. I'm VERY happy I have the AI (and I would not
own an aircraft used for cross country without one) but I would not put the
DG in a Kitfox again. I simply never use it. Spend the money on a good GPS
and mount the GPS where the DG would normally go. Just a thought.
For hard IFR you will need a DG or better of course, but for dropping
through clouds occasionally, like I said, I just never look at it.
SteveZ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd
versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with
the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Deke
S5
NE Michigan
65f, clear and calm
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "*" <caseclosed66@hotmail.com>
Sounds interesting.
I'm just about to refinish my IV wings and am always looking for more
reasons to add more to my projects.
Most of my friends think my little KF IV will end up a turbine beaver by the
time I'm done.
greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Slats
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin"
> <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
>
> Cliff
>
> I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I
> then designed a attach bracket that extends around the spar to the
> top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets
> along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32
> pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the
> bracket
> with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1
> 8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every
> other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the
> brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin
> with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of
> .032
> sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and
> so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but
> will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets
> on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds.
> The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making
> the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post
> if interest is there.
>
> Brian.
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: wwillyard@aol.com
I am using a Falcon vacuum DG that I purchased as a factory remanufactured unit.
The Falcon unit has less drift than thr RC Allen or the Sigmatek that preceded
it(the Sigmatek unit did not operate long enough to establish a drift rate).
It also has accumulated more hours than than the RC Allen unit did before failure.
The worst unit was the Sigmatek which lasted for 1 hour before failure.
Also the warranty service from Sigmatek was not good, Chief Aircraft finally
gave me a refund.
This does not address your question regarding an electric unit, but rather one
individuals experience.
Bill W.
Classic IV 912
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my
S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions
at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or
non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd
appreciate any input.
Thanks,
Deke
S5
NE Michigan
65f, clear and calm
Message 16
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| Subject: | Needi installation help for MGL displays. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
(Posting for Jimmie, as he is having trouble with his email.)
I have two 3 1/8" MGL displays with artifical
horizon and digital compass. Having a rough time getting the
sensor to integrate with the chromoly frame of my Kitfox. If you
know of anyone that has these instruments and has found a good
installation method I sure would like to hear from them.
Jimmie Blackwell
Model IV Speedster
jablackwell@mail.ev1.net
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: mscotter@comcast.net
Why would slats cause the aircraft to cruise faster? If anything I would've expected
them to add additional drag and slow the 'fox down. Do you have any pics
of your aircraft with them? I'm sure we'd all love to see them.
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin"
>
>
> Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the
> KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve
> low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
> I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where
> I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is
> an interest in such a thing?
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
> Brian
Why would slats cause the aircraft to cruise faster? If anything I would've expected
them to add additional drag and slow the 'fox down. Do you have any pics
of your aircraft with them? I'm sure we'd all love to see them.
-------------- Original message --------------
-- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin"
<BRIAN@STEVESAIRCRAFT.COM>
Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the
KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve
low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where
I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is
an interest in such a thing?
Thanks for any info.
Brian
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 08:07 AM 9/21/2005, you wrote:
>The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
This is interesting. If true, (i.e. reverse course GPS reading and not
IAS,) then it indicates shifting the CL forward significantly increases
cruise speed, which may mean you've got too much decalage. (Actually
shifting the CG aft or CL forward always increases cruise speed at the cost
of stability. For max cruise you always fly at the aft CG limit.) How did
you handle the CL shift? Did you shift the CG too? Or just check to make
sure the CG had enough range to accommodate the CL shift?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Message 19
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| Subject: | S5 Outback Empty weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" <kerryskyring@hotmail.com>
Sorry about this but I'm going to report in kilograms. OE-UMJ has been
weighed and comes out at
just under 358 kg empty. I think this is in the ball park for an Outback
with a 912S, Grove gear
and fixed pitch wooden prop. We have a reasonable set of instruments.
We (rather me, the Kitfox builders helper) made the classic mistake when
doing weight and balance.
The manual is written for the bungee gear which puts the mains behind the
datum point. I followed
the manual and could not work out why the rear c of g limits just did not
allow any luggage and only two lightweight pilots leaning forward. Fact is
the Grove gear puts the mains forward of the datum point and it becomes a
negative moment arm. A check of the list archives enlightened me
and also made me feel better because I was not the only one unable to see
the obvious. Anyway w and b is now OK.
What else to report? Running out of things to do. Three leaf springs for the
tail wheel arrived from John McBean but will get installed after test hours
have been flown off. We're getting a bit nervous.
Austrian authorities will only allow 1400 lbs gross on the S5 despite the
fact that 1550 is approved by Skystar. We don't see any problems flying
within the 1400 limit. The plane looks great. Pictures and reports of first
flight coming soon.
Kerry.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
I have not personally flown the aircraft. I designed and built them
for my friend / customer and so far all of the numbers have been IAS.
I have had experience with slats on a Fiesler Storch and have the
Maintenance and Parts manual for the Storch, which is what I used for
the design of the Kitfox slats.
As for the increase in cruise. Readings were taken on Cold early morning
flights before slats 85 MPH at 5000 RPM. After, 90 MPH at 5000 RPM.
He has been flying them for about 2 weeks now and has reported that
the increase in cruise has been consistent.
As for stability. The aircraft has remarkably better control at all speed
ranges. The owner of this aircraft has over 1000 hours in it and has told
me that it is a better controlling more stable aircraft than it was before the
slats.
To tell the truth, I have done nothing as far as CL or CG changes in the aircraft.
He has flown it completely loaded (Full fuel, two heavy guys) and very light
and has not experienced any bad flight characteristics in the aircraft.
I am assuming the main reasons for the increased cruise is twofold.
first the change in airfoil and the change in CG due to increases cord length.
I have talked extensively to the previous owner of the Storch that I mentioned
earlier in this post. According to him, the Kitfox is handling much in the
same manner of the Storch as far as stalls and stability issues.
I have yet to finalize all the numbers (CG, CL, weight, ect..) and will try to
get them to this group soon. I will also get the owner of the aircraft to write
in his own words to the handling and flight differences with the slats installed.
Thanks for your inquirys. If you would like to talk to me on the phone my
number is
541-826-9729 (shop)
541-944-9352 (cell)
Brian.
Message 21
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Clifford Begnaud wrote:
> Have you seen this:
> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
> clif
Clif, they are talking about a solid state gyro. What is a solid state gyro? I
have heard of laser gyro but this surely can't be the case, considering the
moderate price, isn't it?
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" <harry@htucker.com>
On a classic 4 Kitfox we had a major vibration problem, mainly on shut down.
We fitted a slipper clutch which helped a bit.
On the annual service we found that 2 engine mounting bolts had sheared off
and all the engine mounting rubber bolts were well under the recommended
torque.
We have put in new bolts and torqued all engine rubber bolts and the
vibration is now far better BUT when one powers back then one still gets a
vibration to a level where one get petrol coming out of the carb overflow.
Any ideas?
Harry Tucker
Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC
PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa
Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339
Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824
Email: harry@htucker.com
Skype: harrytucker
Message 23
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| Subject: | Ivo Prop Medium on Kitfox series 4 and 7 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" <harry@htucker.com>
We fly 300 - 500 hours per year and are getting a lot of problems with the
in flight adjustable Ivo prop
Ie:
Wires to electric motor breaking off
Electric adjust stops working until one strips planetary gear drives down
and re greases
We cut the length of wire supplied with the in flight adjustable props -
could this be the problem as suggested by Ivo?
Any ideas
Harry Tucker
Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC
PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa
Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339
Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824
Email: harry@htucker.com
Skype: harrytucker
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
This is a Repost from a different thread due to a mistake that I made
when sending it to the list. I wanted it to post here and I mistakenly
started a new thread.
Brian
Cliff
I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I
then designed an attach bracket that extends around the spar to the
top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets
along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32
pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the bracket
with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1
8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every
other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the
brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin
with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of .032
sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and
so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but
will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets
on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds.
The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making
the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post
if interest is there.
Brian.
Also, this particular KitFox has 4 inch extended cord elevators on it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian J. Pankonin" <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin"
> <brian@stevesaircraft.com>
>
> Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the
> KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve
> low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster.
> I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where
> I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is
> an interest in such a thing?
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
Message 25
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the
price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed that
it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have
any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody
else?
Deke
>
> Deke,
> Have you seen this:
> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
> clif
>
> >
> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
gyro
> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
> > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about
> > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> > Thanks,
> > Deke
> > S5
> > NE Michigan
> > 65f, clear and calm
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 26
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
I had questions about that unit too. In order for it to display track, do
you have to buy the optional GPS, or can it couple to an existing GPS? Also,
I don't quite understand what it means by "Pitch is gyro enhanced vertical
speed." Pitch is only remotely related to vertical speed.
Anyway, Deke, I think you should hold out for the flight director and
autopilot unit. Weather radar too.
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
Subject: Kitfox-List: electric gyros
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the
price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed that
it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have
any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody
else?
Deke
>
> Deke,
> Have you seen this:
> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
> clif
>
> >
> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
gyro
> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
> > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about
> > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> > Thanks,
> > Deke
> > S5
> > NE Michigan
> > 65f, clear and calm
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 27
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thanks Steve. Around here I have to cross Saginaw Bay periodically. It's
only about 14-20 minutes depending on which way I go and winds, but when
it's hazy there's sometimes no horizon which makes things a bit difficult.
It can be technically vmc yet conditions are similar to imc because of the
lack of cues. I need something, whether it's solid state or mechanical. I
just want something that will fit a 3 1/8" hole and will work. I agree with
what you say about the DG. GPS gives more information.
Deke
> This does not answer your question but...
>
> I have a AI and DG on my IV. I'm VERY happy I have the AI (and I would
not
> own an aircraft used for cross country without one) but I would not put
the
> DG in a Kitfox again. I simply never use it. Spend the money on a good
GPS
> and mount the GPS where the DG would normally go. Just a thought.
>
> For hard IFR you will need a DG or better of course, but for dropping
> through clouds occasionally, like I said, I just never look at it.
>
> SteveZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> To: Kitfox List
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
>
> I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro
> to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
non-TSOd
> versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
with
> the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
> buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> Thanks,
> Deke
> S5
> NE Michigan
> 65f, clear and calm
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Harry, from your post, I am asuming you are flying behind a 912, possibly a
912S.
My engine will occasionally run rough enough to cause fuel to spill. This
began after overhauling the carbs and I believe it was due to the new float
needles not seating properly. But has been better after I replaced the new
needle on the worst of the carbs - with the old one. This is likely not
your problem.
Regarding the sheared bolts. The spacers in the rubber donuts were too
long as they came from the kit and resulted in shake and actually some
broken mounts. You might want to inspect your mount. the break usually
occurred on the top cross tube in front of the oil tank - Model IV. SS has
a service letter out on the spacer.
The first thing I would do is make sure the carburetors are balanced. Maybe
someone else will chime in with other suggestions. Clint Bazzill has a shut
down procedure that minimizes shake, but I don't recall what it is. Someone
else might remember it or maybe Clint is monitoring the list and will
respond.
Keep us posted.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Tucker" <harry@htucker.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" <harry@htucker.com>
>
> On a classic 4 Kitfox we had a major vibration problem, mainly on shut
> down.
>
> We fitted a slipper clutch which helped a bit.
>
> On the annual service we found that 2 engine mounting bolts had sheared
> off
> and all the engine mounting rubber bolts were well under the recommended
> torque.
>
>
> We have put in new bolts and torqued all engine rubber bolts and the
> vibration is now far better BUT when one powers back then one still gets a
> vibration to a level where one get petrol coming out of the carb overflow.
>
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
> Harry Tucker
>
> Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC
>
> PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa
>
> Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339
>
> Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824
>
> Email: harry@htucker.com
>
> Skype: harrytucker
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: electric gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" <shoeless@barefootpilot.com>
Deke,
I have no personal experience with this unit, but these guys have a great
reputation and make really good autopilots (or so I'm told) I would like to
know more about it also.
Cliff
>
>
> It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the
> price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed
> that
> it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have
> any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody
> else?
> Deke
>
>>
>> Deke,
>> Have you seen this:
>> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
>> clif
>>
>> >
>> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
> gyro
>> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
>> > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
>> > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know
>> > about
>> > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
>> > Thanks,
>> > Deke
>> > S5
>> > NE Michigan
>> > 65f, clear and calm
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Electric Gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
John, it looks like a nice unit and I'm sure it works well. I think I even
have the side to side clearance that I need. However, I think I'm looking
for something more basic. I already have the Grand Rapids EIS system so I
have no need for any more instrumentation. All I really need is artificial
horizon and direction.
Deke
>
> you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one
in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This
works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face.
>
> John Kerr
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> >
> > Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units
except
> > for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two
> > extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the
gyros
> > and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know
of
> > any that use 3 1/8" cut outs?
> > Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a
> > little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult
to
> > separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the
usefulness of
> > the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of
> > information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are
simple
> > and that's what my simple mind needs.
> > I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has
any.
> > Deke
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Don Pearsall"
> > To:
> > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> >
> >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
> >
> > >
> > > Hey Deke,
> > > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available
for
> > > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display
> > unit.
> > > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience
with
> > > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow
> > displays.
> > >
> > > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
> > >
> > > Don Pearsall
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> > > To: Kitfox List
> > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> > >
> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> > >
> > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
gyro
> > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> > non-TSOd
> > > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
> > with
> > > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making
a
> > > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Deke
> > > S5
> > > NE Michigan
> > > 65f, clear and calm
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one
in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This
works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face.
>
> John Kerr
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <MORID@NORTHLAND.LIB.MI.US>
>
> Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units
except
> for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two
> extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the
gyros
> and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of
> any that use 3 1/8" cut outs?
> Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a
> little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to
> separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness
of
> the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of
> information on them, but possibly too much. Con
> ventional gyros are simple
> and that's what my simple mind needs.
> I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has
any.
> Deke
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Pearsall" <DONPEARSALL@COMCAST.NET>
> To: <KITFOX-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros
>
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall"
> <DONPEARSALL@COMCAST.NET>
>
> Hey Deke,
> Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for
> sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display
> unit.
> It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience
with
> solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow
> displays.
>
> http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html
> &g
> t;
> Don Pearsall
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> To: Kitfox List
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
<MORID@NORTHLAND.LIB.MI.US>
>
> I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
gyro
> to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> non-TSOd
> versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience
> with
> the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a
> buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> Thanks,
> Deke
> S5
> NE Michigan
> 65f, clear and calm <B
> R>
>
>
Message 31
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thanks Fred. How you doing?
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shiple" <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Deke,
> Have you looked at Dynon's EFIS. I've flown it in a friend's RV-6 and it
works well after you get used to the display. He had a good experience with
their after sales support. You should be able to get into it for what you'll
have in the A.I. and gyro ($2200).
> Fred
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: electric gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Those were my same questions, especially the pitch information. Wonder how
it gets it's "track" information.
Also, is there a spinning gyro somewhere that's remoted or something?
I'll probably have to make some phone calls.
Deke
> I had questions about that unit too. In order for it to display track, do
> you have to buy the optional GPS, or can it couple to an existing GPS?
Also,
> I don't quite understand what it means by "Pitch is gyro enhanced vertical
> speed." Pitch is only remotely related to vertical speed.
>
> Anyway, Deke, I think you should hold out for the flight director and
> autopilot unit. Weather radar too.
>
> Don Pearsall
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: electric gyros
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
>
>
> It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the
> price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed
that
> it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have
> any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody
> else?
> Deke
>
> >
> > Deke,
> > Have you seen this:
> > http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html
> > clif
> >
> > >
> > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
> gyro
> > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> > > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
> > > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know
about
> > > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Deke
> > > S5
> > > NE Michigan
> > > 65f, clear and calm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Wiring under center console |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
With the fabric painted and the engine hung I've started wiring my model 5. Much
of my center console space has been dedicated for my amphib retract system and
I'm wondering what might be the best way to route the coax for com and xpdr,
power for strobes, Dynon remote mag head along with fuel and brake lines through
there without interfering with the adjustable rudder cables. Have any of
you used plastic conduit to keep things together? Any problems routing the strobe
power near the signal lines or coax? As always I appreciate your combined
knowledge and experience.
Joel
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 01:16 PM 9/21/2005, you wrote:
>...
>for my friend / customer and so far all of the numbers have been IAS.
Then the speed difference could easily be pitot flow modification. Too bad
he didn't have accurate GPS data. I'm sure it's still possible that he's
flying faster because of the CL shift. (I noticed a Skystar Service Letter
which shifted the allowable CG on the IV aft sometime back. That might pick
up a few knots.)
Anyone fiddled with CG versus speed or decalage versus speed?
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
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