---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/21/05: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:22 AM - Gyros (Fox5flyer) 2. 07:51 AM - Re: Gyros (Don Pearsall) 3. 08:08 AM - Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin) 4. 08:16 AM - Re: Gyros (kitfoxjunky) 5. 08:19 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Clifford Begnaud) 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Gyros (Clifford Begnaud) 7. 08:25 AM - rod end part # (Brett M) 8. 08:26 AM - Re: Gyros (Fred Shiple) 9. 08:34 AM - Electric Gyros (Fox5flyer) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: cargo pod. (kitfoxjunky) 11. 08:57 AM - Re: Electric Gyros (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 12. 09:12 AM - Kitfox Slats (Brian J. Pankonin) 13. 09:13 AM - Re: Gyros (Steve Zakreski) 14. 09:37 AM - Re: Kitfox Slats (matt msg.05.23.05.04:21:08.26754 msg.05.23.05.04:21:08.26790 msg.05.23.05.06:30:00.19402 msg.05.23.05.07:05:35.29938 msg.05.23.05.08:42:28.21575 msg.05.23.05.08:42:28.21582 msg.05.23.05.08:57:10.6698 msg.05.23.05.10:00:04.32377 msg.05.23.05.11:00:42.31353 msg.05.23.05.11:21:06.24674 msg.05.23.05.11:23:26.28832 msg.05.23.05.12:11:57.25083 msg.05.23.05.12:28:45.16902 msg.05.23.05.12:30:46.1343 msg.05.23.05.15:43:11.15724 msg.05.23.05.15:51:21.28004 msg.05.23.05.16:50:42.4473 msg.05.23.05.20:16:01.11220 msg.05.23.05.21:41:19.17147 msg.05.23.05.21:56:05.11810 msg.05.23.05.22:11:26.1600 msg.05.23.05.22:11:29.2888 msg.05.23.05.22:16:47.12967 msg.09.11.05.23:59:51.9550 msg.09.21.05.07:22:58.18710 msg.09.21.05.07:51:01.23923 msg.09.21.05.08:08:08.17505 msg.09.21.05.08:16:15.27177 msg.09.21.05.08:19:21.31824 msg.09.21.05.08:20:53.3254 msg.09.21.05.08:25:45.9193 msg.09.21.05.08:26:50.12194 msg.09.21.05.08:34:13.22003 msg.09.21.05.08:56:44.24879 msg.09.21.05.08:57:23.27867 msg.09.21.05.09:12:58.15546 msg.09.21.05.09:13:30.17783 msg.09.21.05.09:37:19.22454 msg.09.21.05.09:38:01.25419 msg.09.21.05.10:16:03.12489 msg.09.21.05.10:24:06.23376 msg.09.21.05.11:33:19.10543 msg.09.21.05.12:30:49.23890 msg.09.21.05.13:18:03.13435 msg.09.21.05.13:59:59.31953 msg.09.21.05.14:21:55.28411 msg.09.21.05.14:21:55.28541 msg.09.21.05.14:49:19.27381 msg.09.21.05.15:05:29.13600 msg.09.21.05.15:55:38.10528 msg.09.21.05.16:00:04.20375 msg.09.21.05.16:01:16.23392 msg.09.21.05.16:07:02.2810 msg.09.21.05.16:37:24.7507 msg.09.21.05.16:52:13.24382 msg.09.21.05.16:58:29.31902 msg.09.21.05.23:54:22.27622 msg.09.21.05.23:54:24.29406 old_messages web_browse.day.0 web_browse.day.1 web_browse.day.2 web_browse.day.3 web_browse.day.4 web_browse.day.5 web_browse.day.6) 15. 09:38 AM - Re: Gyros (wwillyard@aol.com) 16. 10:16 AM - Needi installation help for MGL displays. (Don Pearsall) 17. 10:24 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (mscotter@comcast.net) 18. 11:33 AM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Guy Buchanan) 19. 12:30 PM - S5 Outback Empty weight (Kerry Skyring) 20. 01:18 PM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin) 21. 01:59 PM - Re: Gyros (Michel Verheughe) 22. 02:21 PM - Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium (Harry Tucker) 23. 02:21 PM - Ivo Prop Medium on Kitfox series 4 and 7 (Harry Tucker) 24. 02:49 PM - Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Brian J. Pankonin) 25. 03:05 PM - electric gyros (Fox5flyer) 26. 03:55 PM - Re: electric gyros (Don Pearsall) 27. 04:00 PM - Re: Gyros (Fox5flyer) 28. 04:01 PM - Re: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium (Lowell Fitt) 29. 04:07 PM - Re: electric gyros (Clifford Begnaud) 30. 04:37 PM - Re: Electric Gyros (Fox5flyer) 31. 04:52 PM - Re: Gyros (Fox5flyer) 32. 04:58 PM - Re: electric gyros (Fox5flyer) 33. 11:54 PM - Wiring under center console (Joel Mapes) 34. 11:54 PM - Re: Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:58 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks, Deke S5 NE Michigan 65f, clear and calm ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:01 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" Hey Deke, Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display unit. It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow displays. http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks, Deke S5 NE Michigan 65f, clear and calm ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:08 AM PST US From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is an interest in such a thing? Thanks for any info. Brian ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:15 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros Serialize complete at 09/21/2005 11:15:23 AM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Just saw a solid state unit in a F1 today. Cost $ 2.5K. Had horizon, DG, accerometer, VSI and a ton more. Forget the brand name..started with a "D". Dyna something. Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:21 AM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Well I can't think of a better place than right here. Keep in mind that the models 4, 5, 6, & 7 all have the same basic wing. I would like to know more about it, especially how it attaches. Cliff S5, Lyc 0-235 > > Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the > KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve > low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. > I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where > I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is > an interest in such a thing? > > Thanks for any info. > > Brian > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:53 AM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Deke, Have you seen this: http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html clif > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > Thanks, > Deke > S5 > NE Michigan > 65f, clear and calm > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:45 AM PST US From: Brett M Subject: Kitfox-List: rod end part # --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Brett M Hi everyone I am soon to be building a 1050 gross model 4 that is partially completed project. The problem is that the fellow I bought it from previously sold the wing struts to someone else. The agreement is that he buys new struts before delivery. He finally received the struts from skystar after 60+ days. They forgot to include the 4 female rod ends. After a lengthy phone call I found out the won't get them for 2 more weeks. I need to get the plane before the weather turns. Would anyone happen to have a part # for these ends that would allow me to order them from AC Spruce or another source. Thank you, Brett Mckinney Rhinelander WI ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:50 AM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple Deke, Have you looked at Dynon's EFIS. I've flown it in a friend's RV-6 and it works well after you get used to the display. He had a good experience with their after sales support. You should be able to get into it for what you'll have in the A.I. and gyro ($2200). Fred ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:13 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Electric Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of any that use 3 1/8" cut outs? Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are simple and that's what my simple mind needs. I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > Hey Deke, > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display unit. > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow displays. > > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html > > Don Pearsall > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > To: Kitfox List > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > Thanks, > Deke > S5 > NE Michigan > 65f, clear and calm > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:44 AM PST US From: kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cargo pod. Serialize complete at 09/21/2005 11:56:14 AM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky Anyone fabricate their own pod? Is the only option to purchase it through Skystar, or are there some third party alternatives out there? Anyone got a used Pod they would be willing to part with that will fit a MDL IV? Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:23 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electric Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face. John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except > for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two > extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros > and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of > any that use 3 1/8" cut outs? > Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a > little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to > separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of > the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of > information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are simple > and that's what my simple mind needs. > I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any. > Deke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Pearsall" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > > > > Hey Deke, > > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for > > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display > unit. > > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with > > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow > displays. > > > > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html > > > > Don Pearsall > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > > To: Kitfox List > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > non-TSOd > > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience > with > > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a > > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > > Thanks, > > Deke > > S5 > > NE Michigan > > 65f, clear and calm > > > > > > > > > > you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face. John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of any that use 3 1/8" cut outs? Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of information on them, but possibly too much. Con ventional gyros are simple and that's what my simple mind needs. I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Pearsall" To: Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" Hey Deke, Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display unit. It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow displays. http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html &g t; Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer To: Kitfox List Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks, Deke S5 NE Michigan 65f, clear and calm ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:58 AM PST US From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" Cliff I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I then designed a attach bracket that extends around the spar to the top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32 pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the bracket with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1 8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of .032 sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds. The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post if interest is there. Brian. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:30 AM PST US From: Steve Zakreski Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Steve Zakreski Deke This does not answer your question but... I have a AI and DG on my IV. I'm VERY happy I have the AI (and I would not own an aircraft used for cross country without one) but I would not put the DG in a Kitfox again. I simply never use it. Spend the money on a good GPS and mount the GPS where the DG would normally go. Just a thought. For hard IFR you will need a DG or better of course, but for dropping through clouds occasionally, like I said, I just never look at it. SteveZ -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks, Deke S5 NE Michigan 65f, clear and calm ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:19 AM PST US From: "*" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "*" Sounds interesting. I'm just about to refinish my IV wings and am always looking for more reasons to add more to my projects. Most of my friends think my little KF IV will end up a turbine beaver by the time I'm done. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Slats > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" > > > Cliff > > I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I > then designed a attach bracket that extends around the spar to the > top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets > along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32 > pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the > bracket > with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1 > 8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every > other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the > brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin > with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of > .032 > sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and > so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but > will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets > on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds. > The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making > the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post > if interest is there. > > Brian. > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:01 AM PST US From: wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: wwillyard@aol.com I am using a Falcon vacuum DG that I purchased as a factory remanufactured unit. The Falcon unit has less drift than thr RC Allen or the Sigmatek that preceded it(the Sigmatek unit did not operate long enough to establish a drift rate). It also has accumulated more hours than than the RC Allen unit did before failure. The worst unit was the Sigmatek which lasted for 1 hour before failure. Also the warranty service from Sigmatek was not good, Chief Aircraft finally gave me a refund. This does not address your question regarding an electric unit, but rather one individuals experience. Bill W. Classic IV 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. Thanks, Deke S5 NE Michigan 65f, clear and calm ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:03 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: Kitfox-List: Needi installation help for MGL displays. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" (Posting for Jimmie, as he is having trouble with his email.) I have two 3 1/8" MGL displays with artifical horizon and digital compass. Having a rough time getting the sensor to integrate with the chromoly frame of my Kitfox. If you know of anyone that has these instruments and has found a good installation method I sure would like to hear from them. Jimmie Blackwell Model IV Speedster jablackwell@mail.ev1.net ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:06 AM PST US From: mscotter@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: mscotter@comcast.net Why would slats cause the aircraft to cruise faster? If anything I would've expected them to add additional drag and slow the 'fox down. Do you have any pics of your aircraft with them? I'm sure we'd all love to see them. -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" > > > Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the > KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve > low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. > I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where > I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is > an interest in such a thing? > > Thanks for any info. > > Brian Why would slats cause the aircraft to cruise faster? If anything I would've expected them to add additional drag and slow the 'fox down. Do you have any pics of your aircraft with them? I'm sure we'd all love to see them. -------------- Original message -------------- -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is an interest in such a thing? Thanks for any info. Brian ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:19 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 08:07 AM 9/21/2005, you wrote: >The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. This is interesting. If true, (i.e. reverse course GPS reading and not IAS,) then it indicates shifting the CL forward significantly increases cruise speed, which may mean you've got too much decalage. (Actually shifting the CG aft or CL forward always increases cruise speed at the cost of stability. For max cruise you always fly at the aft CG limit.) How did you handle the CL shift? Did you shift the CG too? Or just check to make sure the CG had enough range to accommodate the CL shift? Thanks, Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:49 PM PST US From: "Kerry Skyring" Subject: Kitfox-List: S5 Outback Empty weight --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kerry Skyring" Sorry about this but I'm going to report in kilograms. OE-UMJ has been weighed and comes out at just under 358 kg empty. I think this is in the ball park for an Outback with a 912S, Grove gear and fixed pitch wooden prop. We have a reasonable set of instruments. We (rather me, the Kitfox builders helper) made the classic mistake when doing weight and balance. The manual is written for the bungee gear which puts the mains behind the datum point. I followed the manual and could not work out why the rear c of g limits just did not allow any luggage and only two lightweight pilots leaning forward. Fact is the Grove gear puts the mains forward of the datum point and it becomes a negative moment arm. A check of the list archives enlightened me and also made me feel better because I was not the only one unable to see the obvious. Anyway w and b is now OK. What else to report? Running out of things to do. Three leaf springs for the tail wheel arrived from John McBean but will get installed after test hours have been flown off. We're getting a bit nervous. Austrian authorities will only allow 1400 lbs gross on the S5 despite the fact that 1550 is approved by Skystar. We don't see any problems flying within the 1400 limit. The plane looks great. Pictures and reports of first flight coming soon. Kerry. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:03 PM PST US From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" I have not personally flown the aircraft. I designed and built them for my friend / customer and so far all of the numbers have been IAS. I have had experience with slats on a Fiesler Storch and have the Maintenance and Parts manual for the Storch, which is what I used for the design of the Kitfox slats. As for the increase in cruise. Readings were taken on Cold early morning flights before slats 85 MPH at 5000 RPM. After, 90 MPH at 5000 RPM. He has been flying them for about 2 weeks now and has reported that the increase in cruise has been consistent. As for stability. The aircraft has remarkably better control at all speed ranges. The owner of this aircraft has over 1000 hours in it and has told me that it is a better controlling more stable aircraft than it was before the slats. To tell the truth, I have done nothing as far as CL or CG changes in the aircraft. He has flown it completely loaded (Full fuel, two heavy guys) and very light and has not experienced any bad flight characteristics in the aircraft. I am assuming the main reasons for the increased cruise is twofold. first the change in airfoil and the change in CG due to increases cord length. I have talked extensively to the previous owner of the Storch that I mentioned earlier in this post. According to him, the Kitfox is handling much in the same manner of the Storch as far as stalls and stability issues. I have yet to finalize all the numbers (CG, CL, weight, ect..) and will try to get them to this group soon. I will also get the owner of the aircraft to write in his own words to the handling and flight differences with the slats installed. Thanks for your inquirys. If you would like to talk to me on the phone my number is 541-826-9729 (shop) 541-944-9352 (cell) Brian. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:59 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe Clifford Begnaud wrote: > Have you seen this: > http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html > clif Clif, they are talking about a solid state gyro. What is a solid state gyro? I have heard of laser gyro but this surely can't be the case, considering the moderate price, isn't it? Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:55 PM PST US From: "Harry Tucker" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" On a classic 4 Kitfox we had a major vibration problem, mainly on shut down. We fitted a slipper clutch which helped a bit. On the annual service we found that 2 engine mounting bolts had sheared off and all the engine mounting rubber bolts were well under the recommended torque. We have put in new bolts and torqued all engine rubber bolts and the vibration is now far better BUT when one powers back then one still gets a vibration to a level where one get petrol coming out of the carb overflow. Any ideas? Harry Tucker Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339 Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824 Email: harry@htucker.com Skype: harrytucker ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:55 PM PST US From: "Harry Tucker" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ivo Prop Medium on Kitfox series 4 and 7 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" We fly 300 - 500 hours per year and are getting a lot of problems with the in flight adjustable Ivo prop Ie: Wires to electric motor breaking off Electric adjust stops working until one strips planetary gear drives down and re greases We cut the length of wire supplied with the in flight adjustable props - could this be the problem as suggested by Ivo? Any ideas Harry Tucker Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339 Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824 Email: harry@htucker.com Skype: harrytucker ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:19 PM PST US From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" This is a Repost from a different thread due to a mistake that I made when sending it to the list. I wanted it to post here and I mistakenly started a new thread. Brian Cliff I designed these things by first digitizing a rib into my CAD program. I then designed an attach bracket that extends around the spar to the top and bottom of the rib. I have some internal and external brackets along with a inter connecting strap that attaches to the rib with 8 3/32 pop rivets on the top and bottom of the rib. To these I attach the bracket with 3 10/32 AN bolts on the bottom and 1 10/32 AN bolt and 1 8/32 structural screw on the top. The brackets are attached to every other rib (same rib as the flaperon brackets) I rivet my slat rib to the brackets (there are left and right ribs) and attach the pre bent .016 skin with short pop rivets. Trailing edge is squeeze riveted with apiece of .032 sandwiched for strength. The main brackets are CNC plasma cut and so are the rib blanks. I hammer formed the ribs for the prototype but will make a press form for production. The small attachment brackets on the ribs are .032 2024 T6. The whole system weighs about 15 pounds. The prototype airplane also has extended tips with end plates making the wing right at 15 feet per side. I have some pics and will try to post if interest is there. Brian. Also, this particular KitFox has 4 inch extended cord elevators on it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J. Pankonin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian J. Pankonin" > > > Hey guys! I have designed some L.E. slats for the > KitFox S-4. They lowered the stall by 10 MPH and improve > low speed handling too. The airplane even cruises 5 MPH faster. > I am thinking of setting up a kit for sale. Anybody know where > I can do some advertising to the KitFox S-4 crowd and if there is > an interest in such a thing? > > Thanks for any info. > > Brian > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:29 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: electric gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed that it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody else? Deke > > Deke, > Have you seen this: > http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html > clif > > > > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal > > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about > > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > > Thanks, > > Deke > > S5 > > NE Michigan > > 65f, clear and calm > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:38 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: electric gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" I had questions about that unit too. In order for it to display track, do you have to buy the optional GPS, or can it couple to an existing GPS? Also, I don't quite understand what it means by "Pitch is gyro enhanced vertical speed." Pitch is only remotely related to vertical speed. Anyway, Deke, I think you should hold out for the flight director and autopilot unit. Weather radar too. Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Subject: Kitfox-List: electric gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed that it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody else? Deke > > Deke, > Have you seen this: > http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html > clif > > > > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal > > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about > > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > > Thanks, > > Deke > > S5 > > NE Michigan > > 65f, clear and calm > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:04 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks Steve. Around here I have to cross Saginaw Bay periodically. It's only about 14-20 minutes depending on which way I go and winds, but when it's hazy there's sometimes no horizon which makes things a bit difficult. It can be technically vmc yet conditions are similar to imc because of the lack of cues. I need something, whether it's solid state or mechanical. I just want something that will fit a 3 1/8" hole and will work. I agree with what you say about the DG. GPS gives more information. Deke > This does not answer your question but... > > I have a AI and DG on my IV. I'm VERY happy I have the AI (and I would not > own an aircraft used for cross country without one) but I would not put the > DG in a Kitfox again. I simply never use it. Spend the money on a good GPS > and mount the GPS where the DG would normally go. Just a thought. > > For hard IFR you will need a DG or better of course, but for dropping > through clouds occasionally, like I said, I just never look at it. > > SteveZ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > To: Kitfox List > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or non-TSOd > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience with > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > Thanks, > Deke > S5 > NE Michigan > 65f, clear and calm > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:16 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Harry, from your post, I am asuming you are flying behind a 912, possibly a 912S. My engine will occasionally run rough enough to cause fuel to spill. This began after overhauling the carbs and I believe it was due to the new float needles not seating properly. But has been better after I replaced the new needle on the worst of the carbs - with the old one. This is likely not your problem. Regarding the sheared bolts. The spacers in the rubber donuts were too long as they came from the kit and resulted in shake and actually some broken mounts. You might want to inspect your mount. the break usually occurred on the top cross tube in front of the oil tank - Model IV. SS has a service letter out on the spacer. The first thing I would do is make sure the carburetors are balanced. Maybe someone else will chime in with other suggestions. Clint Bazzill has a shut down procedure that minimizes shake, but I don't recall what it is. Someone else might remember it or maybe Clint is monitoring the list and will respond. Keep us posted. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Tucker" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912 S vibration problems with Ivo Prop medium > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harry Tucker" > > On a classic 4 Kitfox we had a major vibration problem, mainly on shut > down. > > We fitted a slipper clutch which helped a bit. > > On the annual service we found that 2 engine mounting bolts had sheared > off > and all the engine mounting rubber bolts were well under the recommended > torque. > > > We have put in new bolts and torqued all engine rubber bolts and the > vibration is now far better BUT when one powers back then one still gets a > vibration to a level where one get petrol coming out of the carb overflow. > > > Any ideas? > > > Harry Tucker > > Wildlife & Golf Inv. Corp CC > > PO Box 2830, White River, 1240 South Africa > > Tel: + 27 13 751 5018 Fax:++ 27 11 507 5339 > > Mobile: + 27 83 45 28824 > > Email: harry@htucker.com > > Skype: harrytucker > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:02 PM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: electric gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Deke, I have no personal experience with this unit, but these guys have a great reputation and make really good autopilots (or so I'm told) I would like to know more about it also. Cliff > > > It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the > price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed > that > it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have > any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody > else? > Deke > >> >> Deke, >> Have you seen this: >> http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html >> clif >> >> > >> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional > gyro >> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or >> > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal >> > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know >> > about >> > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. >> > Thanks, >> > Deke >> > S5 >> > NE Michigan >> > 65f, clear and calm >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:24 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Electric Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" John, it looks like a nice unit and I'm sure it works well. I think I even have the side to side clearance that I need. However, I think I'm looking for something more basic. I already have the Grand Rapids EIS system so I have no need for any more instrumentation. All I really need is artificial horizon and direction. Deke > > you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face. > > John Kerr > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > > Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except > > for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two > > extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros > > and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of > > any that use 3 1/8" cut outs? > > Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a > > little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to > > separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of > > the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of > > information on them, but possibly too much. Conventional gyros are simple > > and that's what my simple mind needs. > > I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any. > > Deke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Pearsall" > > To: > > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > > > > > > > Hey Deke, > > > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for > > > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display > > unit. > > > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with > > > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow > > displays. > > > > > > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html > > > > > > Don Pearsall > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > > > To: Kitfox List > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > > > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > > non-TSOd > > > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience > > with > > > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a > > > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > > > Thanks, > > > Deke > > > S5 > > > NE Michigan > > > 65f, clear and calm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you are in luck, the Dynon fits in the 3 1/8 hole....I have installed one in the top hole and enlarged the lower one to accept a Garmin 296. This works if you have the side to side clearance for the oblong face. > > John Kerr > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Thanks Don. I would seriously consider one of the solid state units except > for one thing. When I built the airplane several years ago I cut the two > extra 3 1/8" holes in my panel. I was planning on one day adding the gyros > and at that time the solid state units weren't one of my options. Know of > any that use 3 1/8" cut outs? > Another thing I have a problem with is that the solid state units seem a > little busy to me and when in a pressure situation it may be difficult to > separate the "forest from the trees" which would derrogate the usefulness of > the instrument and may even exacerbate the problem. There's lots of > information on them, but possibly too much. Con > ventional gyros are simple > and that's what my simple mind needs. > I'd still like any input on the Falcon or non-TSOd units if anybody has any. > Deke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Pearsall" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" > > > Hey Deke, > Have you considered a solid state horizon? There are a few available for > sport A/C that cost around $1000. Look at this multi-function display > unit. > It has a lot of displays in addition to horizon. I have no experience with > solid state instruments, other than drooling over them at airshow > displays. > > http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/Ultra/ultra.html > &g > t; > Don Pearsall > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > To: Kitfox List > Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros > > -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional gyro > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > non-TSOd > versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal experience > with > the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about before making a > buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > Thanks, > Deke > S5 > NE Michigan > 65f, clear and calm R> > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:13 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Thanks Fred. How you doing? Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shiple" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Gyros > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple > > Deke, > Have you looked at Dynon's EFIS. I've flown it in a friend's RV-6 and it works well after you get used to the display. He had a good experience with their after sales support. You should be able to get into it for what you'll have in the A.I. and gyro ($2200). > Fred > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:29 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: electric gyros --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Those were my same questions, especially the pitch information. Wonder how it gets it's "track" information. Also, is there a spinning gyro somewhere that's remoted or something? I'll probably have to make some phone calls. Deke > I had questions about that unit too. In order for it to display track, do > you have to buy the optional GPS, or can it couple to an existing GPS? Also, > I don't quite understand what it means by "Pitch is gyro enhanced vertical > speed." Pitch is only remotely related to vertical speed. > > Anyway, Deke, I think you should hold out for the flight director and > autopilot unit. Weather radar too. > > Don Pearsall > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: electric gyros > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > > It looks like a nice unit Clif. Simple with conventional display and the > price is right. It indicates that it has an internal DG, but I noticed that > it says that it displays "track", which is no diff than gps. Do you have > any personal experience with this unit, or for that matter does anybody > else? > Deke > > > > > Deke, > > Have you seen this: > > http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/ttfsinstruments.html > > clif > > > > > > > > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional > gyro > > > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or > > > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal > > > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know about > > > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input. > > > Thanks, > > > Deke > > > S5 > > > NE Michigan > > > 65f, clear and calm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:22 PM PST US From: "Joel Mapes" Subject: Kitfox-List: Wiring under center console --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" With the fabric painted and the engine hung I've started wiring my model 5. Much of my center console space has been dedicated for my amphib retract system and I'm wondering what might be the best way to route the coax for com and xpdr, power for strobes, Dynon remote mag head along with fuel and brake lines through there without interfering with the adjustable rudder cables. Have any of you used plastic conduit to keep things together? Any problems routing the strobe power near the signal lines or coax? As always I appreciate your combined knowledge and experience. Joel ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:24 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 4 Leading Edge Slats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 01:16 PM 9/21/2005, you wrote: >... >for my friend / customer and so far all of the numbers have been IAS. Then the speed difference could easily be pitot flow modification. Too bad he didn't have accurate GPS data. I'm sure it's still possible that he's flying faster because of the CL shift. (I noticed a Skystar Service Letter which shifted the allowable CG on the IV aft sometime back. That might pick up a few knots.) Anyone fiddled with CG versus speed or decalage versus speed? Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar. Do not archive