Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:30 AM - SV: Gyros (Michel Verheughe)
2. 06:10 AM - Re: electric Gyros (Fox5flyer)
3. 09:35 AM - Re: cargo pod. (daniel johnson)
4. 09:52 AM - Re: electric Gyros (Michael Gibbs)
5. 02:03 PM - Kitfox IV Wing Construction (RV73HL@aol.com)
6. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: electric Gyros (Michel Verheughe)
7. 02:36 PM - Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction (Donna and Roger McConnell)
8. 04:18 PM - Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction (Brett Walmsley)
9. 07:39 PM - Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction (Grant Fluent)
10. 10:30 PM - Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction (Frank & Phyllis)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Jay Carter [valley361@centurytel.net]
> The gyro is a 1 inch square x 1/4 inch thick (appx) solid state
> device. Does the same thing as the spinning gyro that has been used for
> years. This is what all the glass panel instruments use. I think in the
> future you will not see air or electrical driven gyros.
Thanks, Jay. While I am new to aviation as a pilot, I have been, for many years,
interested in all forms of navigation. I remember reading about the ring laser
gyro that wereso much better but so much more expensive.
Now I have "googlelized" a bit on the internet and found out that a "solid state
gyro" is not laser but silicon technology. Here is, cut from How Things Work:
"A typical solid-state silicon gyroscope consists of a tiny silicon plate mounted
on a support frame. The silicon particles are moved by an electrostatic current
applied across the plate. The particles move in a particular way, which causes
the plate to vibrate in a predictable manner. But when the plate is rotated
around its axis (that is, when the Segway rotates in that particular plane),
the particles suddenly shift in relation to the plate. This alters the vibration,
and the change is in proportion to the degree of rotation. The gyroscope
system measures the change in vibration, and passes this information on to the
computer. "
Note that it mentions the Segway, which also uses these new gyros.
My conclusion: If I was reading about today's world, say 15 years ago, I would
think I was reading science-fiction! Reading email on a wireless laptop in an
airport, while sending a photo taken with ... a cellular phone, then boarding
on a plane with no-moving-parts gyros! Woawww! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: electric Gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
This is good information Chuck. Thanks.
So far what I'm gleaning is that the solid state units offer similar
response to the "iron" gyros and might just be the way to go. I noticed
that Dynon D10A is now up to nearly $2200 which is considerably more than
the discontinued D10. This is something I've noticed in the experimental
world. If the product is good, then they raise the price. It would seem to
me that a better marketing strategy would be to keep the price down and sell
more of them. I'm having a hard time justifying the $2.2k for one
instrument, but I may still do it if I hear enough good vibes from those who
have personal experience with it. There aren't really very many choices out
there when it comes to non-vacuum AHs.
Deke
> No hood time with the Dynon yet but I hear from longer term users that
they
> feel the solid state units are more reliable and "drift free" than vacuum
> units. One RV driver said he uses his in the clouds like he used to use
> vacuum. Spending time on some of the manufacturers web sites, (Dynon,
Blue
> mountain, Grand Rapids), should give you a better feel for their
> reliability. These seem to be the wave of the future. I am building an
RV
> and plan no vacuum system.
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: electric Gyros
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
<morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> >
> > Chuck, have you tried any "hood" time with it yet? Does it react the
same
> > as a mechanical DG? Does it have some sort of remote spinning gyro? Do
> > you
> > feel you could use it with the same skill to get out of trouble that a
> > mech.
> > AH would allow?
> > I'm having a difficult time with how these things work. I like the idea
> > of
> > solid state units because of no moving parts, but I'm not sure if that's
> > true.
> > Anybody know of any impartial reviews on these things?
> > Thanks,
> > Deke
> >
> >
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Chuck & Deanna Schieffer"
> > <cdschieffer@starnetdial.net>
> >>
> >> I recently installed a Dynon D10 in my Kitfox--gives an attitude
> >> indicator
> >> and dg among other things. Removed a venturi vacuum system and poorly
> >> functioning gyros. Very happy with it. Search their web site for more
> >> info.
> >> Chuck
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> >> To: "Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Gyros
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer"
> > <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
> >> >
> >> > I'm seriously considering adding an electric attitude and directional
> > gyro
> >> > to my S5. Options are the RC Allen at nearly $2k and the Falcon or
> >> > non-TSOd versions at half the price. Does anybody have any personal
> >> > experience with the Falcon or non-TSOd versions that I should know
> >> > about
> >> > before making a buying decision? I'd appreciate any input.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Deke
> >> > S5
> >> > NE Michigan
> >> > 65f, clear and calm
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" <kitfox91je@hotmail.com>
About the baggage pods. I bought the pod from skystar and i'm happy with
it...but really its just a fiberglass shell. I've kept the fiberglass cover
from an old satellite dish system to use as a pod on a JR Ace i'm building.
The covers on those old units are about the same size and weight as my pod
on the fox...just make a simple lid for the backside of it. Should be able
to find them a dime a dozen i'd think. Just an idea for those of you
looking for an easy pod.
Dan Johnson...K3/Jr Ace.
DO not archive
>From: kitfoxjunky <kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
>Reply-To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cargo pod.
>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:56:15 -0400 Serialize complete at
>09/21/2005 11:56:14 AM
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky
><kitfoxjunky@decisionlabs.com>
>
>Anyone fabricate their own pod? Is the only option to purchase it through
>Skystar, or are there some third party alternatives out there? Anyone got
>a used Pod they would be willing to part with that will fit a MDL IV?
>
>
>Gary Walsh
>KF IV Anphib 912S
>C-GOOT
>www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox
>
>do not archive
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: electric Gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>Do you feel you could use it with the same skill to get out of
>trouble that a mech. AH would allow?
My experience with Primary Flight Displays (PFD) in general is that
they perform at least as well as mechanical units in terms of
response times and they obviously don't experience the wear and tear
that moving parts do. The solid-state sensors used today are
extremely sophisticated and reliable and often include internal
redundancy. The Dynon unit, for example, has triple redundant
sensors for each axis plus acceleration. In a mechanical unit if
something goes, the unit goes.
In terms of pilot performance, it may take a little while to become
accustomed to the features and the display layout, but in general,
the bigger the attitude display the easier your brain can digest
which way is up. A review of the Avidyne 8"x10" unit I read once
indicated that the author thought it would be next to impossible to
be upside down without realizing it. The full-screen attitude
display used in the Dynon unit is significantly larger than the
viewable area of a mechanical attitude indicator.
>Do you know how the Dynon gets it's pitch and roll information? Have
>you had a chance to fly behind one of these yet?
I don't know the specifics of how the sensors work, but the Dynon
Pilot's guide describes the sensor array this way:
"Attitude information is obtained from 3 solid-state gyrometers, 3
solid-state accelerometers, and the airspeed pressure sensor.
Heading information is obtained from 3 solid-state magnetometers.
Airspeed, altitude and angle of attack are obtained from three
separate pressure transducers."
The accelerometers are described as, "...solid state
Micro-electromechanical Systems or MEMs accelerometers." The gyros
are simply described as "...solid state rate gyros..." and the,
"...D10A uses magnetic field sensors as a three dimensional
electronic compass. The onboard circuitry uses these sensors to
resolve the earth's magnetic field.
I have not flown with one yet, but I have one sitting on my work
bench ready for installation into my new panel.
>The only non-moving-parts gyro I know of is the ring laser gyro but
>I believe it is very, very expensive.
I think there are now other technologies besides ring laser gyros,
Michel. You're right, they would be too expensive to use in a unit
that sells for US$2100 or so.
>Is it also tilted 30 degrees up to sense not only turn rate but also
>bank rate?
Turn coordinators use tilted gyros. Attitude indicators do not.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kitfox IV Wing Construction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RV73HL@aol.com
I was told by a friend who has an Avid Flyer that when he built his wings,
they had a "Alum Cleaner" to wipe the spar tubes with, before attaching the
ribs with the Adhesive. Does Kitfox have such a cleaner, and if so , what is
it
called?
One more question...what is Cotton Flox , and where is it used?
I know these are dumb questions, but one doesn't know, the best way to learn
is ask a group that does.
Thanks.
Howard
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: electric Gyros |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Michael Gibbs wrote:
> I think there are now other technologies besides ring laser gyros,
> Michel.
Ah, you see! ... does my age show? :-)
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Kitfox IV Wing Construction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Donna and Roger McConnell" <rdmac@swbell.net>
Howard,
To answer your second question, cotton flox is a material that is
added to the two part structural adhesive that is used through out the
construction of the wing. Its function is to give the adhesive more body and
to create fillets. Another material micro balloons, is also added to the
adhesive to bond dissimilar metals so they don't corrode.
Roger Mac
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV73HL@aol.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV Wing Construction
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RV73HL@aol.com
I was told by a friend who has an Avid Flyer that when he built his wings,
they had a "Alum Cleaner" to wipe the spar tubes with, before attaching the
ribs with the Adhesive. Does Kitfox have such a cleaner, and if so , what
is it
called?
One more question...what is Cotton Flox , and where is it used?
I know these are dumb questions, but one doesn't know, the best way to
learn
is ask a group that does.
Thanks.
Howard
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <N93HJ@numail.org>
IF I remember correct Skystar says. First red scotch brite then alcohol.
----- Original Message -----
From: <RV73HL@aol.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV Wing Construction
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: RV73HL@aol.com
>
> I was told by a friend who has an Avid Flyer that when he built his wings,
> they had a "Alum Cleaner" to wipe the spar tubes with, before attaching
> the
> ribs with the Adhesive. Does Kitfox have such a cleaner, and if so ,
> what is it
> called?
>
> One more question...what is Cotton Flox , and where is it used?
>
> I know these are dumb questions, but one doesn't know, the best way to
> learn
> is ask a group that does.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Howard
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
Howard,
In my opinion, there's no dumb questions here.
Everyone has had to start from the beginning at some
point in time.
I prepped my spars for the adhesive by first
cleaning the area with denatured alcohol and then
using red scotch brite pads to roughen the area. After
that, I cleaned the area again with the alcohol. This
procedure is in the Classic IV builder's manual in the
"Builder's Tips" section. I used the 3M 2216 adhesive
that came in the kit and used the cotton flox (also in
the kit) to make it thicker and stronger. Some have
used Hysol instead of the 2216 adhesive and say that
it works much better because it stays in place easier
without the tendency to run. I have no experience with
the Hysol but others say it works well.
Grant Fluent
Newcastle, NE
Classic IV 912S
--- RV73HL@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: RV73HL@aol.com
>
> I was told by a friend who has an Avid Flyer that
> when he built his wings,
> they had a "Alum Cleaner" to wipe the spar tubes
> with, before attaching the
> ribs with the Adhesive. Does Kitfox have such a
> cleaner, and if so , what is it
> called?
>
> One more question...what is Cotton Flox , and where
> is it used?
>
> I know these are dumb questions, but one doesn't
> know, the best way to learn
> is ask a group that does.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Howard
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox IV Wing Construction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Frank & Phyllis <frank.phyllis@mindspring.com>
My understanding is that the use of the scotch brite pad is to remove
the thin film of surface corrosion on the aluminum. This process
(alcohol/pad/alcohol) should be accomplished _immediately _before
applying epoxy. I received the quick-build kit (ribs & false ribs
attached). When unloading from the crate I slightly bumped one of the
false ribs and it came loose from the spar. I tapped several false ribs
and they all came loose. SkyStar said it's possible the spar was
cleaned as prescribed (you could see the prep marks on the spar) but
they (SkyStar) might not have applied the epoxy immediately (hours of
delay--not days) and they deduced the aluminum had "re-oxidized" which
inhibited the epoxy's adherance to the spar. SkyStar replaced both wings.
Frank
Grant Fluent wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent <gjfpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>Howard,
> In my opinion, there's no dumb questions here.
>Everyone has had to start from the beginning at some
>point in time.
> I prepped my spars for the adhesive by first
>cleaning the area with denatured alcohol and then
>using red scotch brite pads to roughen the area. After
>that, I cleaned the area again with the alcohol. This
>procedure is in the Classic IV builder's manual in the
>"Builder's Tips" section. I used the 3M 2216 adhesive
>that came in the kit and used the cotton flox (also in
>the kit) to make it thicker and stronger. Some have
>used Hysol instead of the 2216 adhesive and say that
>it works much better because it stays in place easier
>without the tendency to run. I have no experience with
>the Hysol but others say it works well.
>
>Grant Fluent
>Newcastle, NE
>Classic IV 912S
>
>
>--- RV73HL@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: RV73HL@aol.com
>>
>>I was told by a friend who has an Avid Flyer that
>>when he built his wings,
>>they had a "Alum Cleaner" to wipe the spar tubes
>>with, before attaching the
>>ribs with the Adhesive. Does Kitfox have such a
>>cleaner, and if so , what is it
>> called?
>>
>>One more question...what is Cotton Flox , and where
>>is it used?
>>
>>I know these are dumb questions, but one doesn't
>>know, the best way to learn
>>is ask a group that does.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Howard
>>
>>
>>
>>browse
>>Subscriptions page,
>>FAQ,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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