Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:41 AM - Missing pages (Joel Mapes)
2. 08:49 AM - Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Michael Gibbs)
3. 08:55 AM - Red Bull Air Race at San Francisco (Bruce Harrington)
4. 09:18 AM - Re: Missing pages ()
5. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Jeremy Casey)
6. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (jdmcbean)
7. 11:00 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Aerobatics@aol.com)
8. 11:16 AM - I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..Re: Miss (Harris, Robert)
9. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Jeremy Casey)
10. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (jdmcbean)
11. 05:36 PM - Re: Missing pages (Dennis Kerr)
12. 07:13 PM - Re: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..Re: Miss ing pages (eccles)
13. 10:51 PM - KF nose over after deadstick landing? (Stu Bryant)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly
(Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available?
I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this.
Joel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>Later was loaned a 2 blade Warp Drive to try and set to a fixed
>pitch, it out performed the adjustable IVO in all respects...
That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying
that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed
transmission.
The best thing about an in-flight adjustable for a two stroke engine
is that you can easily keep the RPM in the fairly narrow range that
the engine likes while varying the power setting with throttle. With
a fixed pitch prop you'll very quickly take the RPM outside of the
happy zone, while with the adjustable you can keep in there at almost
any throttle setting.
>...the IVO's are just not go fast props.
Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox
IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low
end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS
(Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's
no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of
performance at both ends of the speed envelope.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 3
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"Kitfox List" <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Red Bull Air Race at San Francisco |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" <sonex321@msn.com>
For those around the San Francisco area, check out the Red Bull Air race
here:
http://www.redbullairrace.com/
Location: San Francisco Bay
during Fleetweek Airshow
Date: Oct.08.
Start Time: 12:45 pm local PST
Admission: General viewing is FREE at Marina Green and Aquatic Park.
Should be a fun race.
Cheers,
Bruce
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Missing pages |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rkstevens@verizon.net>
I seem to recall asking SkyStar about electronic documents at one point several
years ago. The short answer was...they don't. Had something to do with the
software they use to produce the documents. They aren't using MS Word or other
like product. As I recall, you need to have the same software product on your
machine to view the docs and most people don't have access to that software.
Ron
>From: Joel Mapes <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri Sep 30 10:38:01 CDT 2005
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>
>It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly
(Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available?
I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this.
>
>Joel
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying
that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed
transmission.
<snip>
If the one with the five-speed had a slipping clutch then things are a
little different;-) The lightweight IVO's are not very efficient props
compared to a Warp or even Powerfin. I say that after trying them on
the same airframe...no I don't have testing from the AMES research
center to back up my claim. What I can tell you is that on a Challenger
2 ultralight the thing cruised 6-7 mph faster with a Warp 2 blade and
climbed approx 100 fpm better than the IVO...results on friends Murphy
Renegade were similar. Props are just like wings, different airfoils,
different surface finishes, Reynolds numbers, etc...all have an effect.
Talking props can be like talked politics, religion, or 2 stroke
oils...can end up in a fight. I fully understand the benefits of an
inflight adjustable prop...I'm saying that in the speed/performance band
we're talking about, the performance advantage of the WARP outweighs the
improvement of the adjustable IVO.
Not trying to sound like I'm just bashing IVO, cause they do come out on
top in a couple of key areas from my experience...the are LIGHTER
(significantly lower moment of inertia which is easier on the gearbox),
they are SMOOTHER (the benefit of being so doggone flexible...absorbs
vibration), and they are a fair amount CHEAPER...all admireable points.
I say again that inflight adjustable on a 2 stroke CAN (and I stress
CAN, not WILL) be a problem. If you fully understand the idiosyncrasies
of a 2 stroke then knock yourself out.
>...the IVO's are just not go fast props.
Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox
IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low
end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS
(Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's
no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of
performance at both ends of the speed envelope.
Mike G.
N728KF
<snip>
Then let me back up the baloney...I should have specified the
lightweight IVO...the original message was in reference to a 582...I
assumed the lightweight IVO...I have no experience with the medium
version...sounds like it is really working well for you. As I will
probably be using a 912S on the Series 5 kit that I just bought, that
gives me another option to consider...
Question...does the Medium still adjust by twisting the blades? It
seems like a pretty simple way to do it, but I think part of the problem
with the lightweight prop was that the blades didn't all twist the same
amount. A&P friend that has a dynamic prop balancing computer tried to
dynamic balance a lightweight IVO and the computer about freaked
out...reading bounced everywhere, finally decided it was due to blades
flexing so much.
Jeremy Casey
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S
powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S powered
aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or
Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster,
Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO
props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would recommend
them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good
props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get from
an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link then
the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost.
This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several
different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different props.
I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a 2
stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying
that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed
transmission.
<snip>
If the one with the five-speed had a slipping clutch then things are a
little different;-) The lightweight IVO's are not very efficient props
compared to a Warp or even Powerfin. I say that after trying them on
the same airframe...no I don't have testing from the AMES research
center to back up my claim. What I can tell you is that on a Challenger
2 ultralight the thing cruised 6-7 mph faster with a Warp 2 blade and
climbed approx 100 fpm better than the IVO...results on friends Murphy
Renegade were similar. Props are just like wings, different airfoils,
different surface finishes, Reynolds numbers, etc...all have an effect.
Talking props can be like talked politics, religion, or 2 stroke
oils...can end up in a fight. I fully understand the benefits of an
inflight adjustable prop...I'm saying that in the speed/performance band
we're talking about, the performance advantage of the WARP outweighs the
improvement of the adjustable IVO.
Not trying to sound like I'm just bashing IVO, cause they do come out on
top in a couple of key areas from my experience...the are LIGHTER
(significantly lower moment of inertia which is easier on the gearbox),
they are SMOOTHER (the benefit of being so doggone flexible...absorbs
vibration), and they are a fair amount CHEAPER...all admireable points.
I say again that inflight adjustable on a 2 stroke CAN (and I stress
CAN, not WILL) be a problem. If you fully understand the idiosyncrasies
of a 2 stroke then knock yourself out.
>...the IVO's are just not go fast props.
Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox
IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low
end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS
(Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's
no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of
performance at both ends of the speed envelope.
Mike G.
N728KF
<snip>
Then let me back up the baloney...I should have specified the
lightweight IVO...the original message was in reference to a 582...I
assumed the lightweight IVO...I have no experience with the medium
version...sounds like it is really working well for you. As I will
probably be using a 912S on the Series 5 kit that I just bought, that
gives me another option to consider...
Question...does the Medium still adjust by twisting the blades? It
seems like a pretty simple way to do it, but I think part of the problem
with the lightweight prop was that the blades didn't all twist the same
amount. A&P friend that has a dynamic prop balancing computer tried to
dynamic balance a lightweight IVO and the computer about freaked
out...reading bounced everywhere, finally decided it was due to blades
flexing so much.
Jeremy Casey
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
Curious are you comparing a 3 blade IVO to a 2 Blade warp? As for Reynolds
number they should be close enough, ie speed and cord seem close to me, but
props certainly do vary.
Thats what is great about us connecting to compare!
I had a CGS ( I think) wooden 3 blade and went to an Ivo, and at one pitch,
I climbed better, crusied faster at same RPM.
I might also add, I am very fussy about my props, I try to keep them
spotless. You wil be surprised n the difference!
Still seriously concidering the in flight Adj IVO....
Dave
KF2 582 BH IVO
Message 8
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ing pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" <Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Hi Joel,
I'm missing some info in my manual too but I'm not sure what chapter. If I
have Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.00) I'll mail a copy to you
in exchange for a copy of my missing pages. I'll check my manual this
evening and e-mail you. Feel free to call me on my cell phone 760-415-1810
or home 760-451-1179
Robert
N200KF/0200 Series V
San Diego
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joel Mapes
Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final
Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this
document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not
this.
Joel
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
Reply at bottom...
<snip>
For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S
powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S
powered
aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or
Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster,
Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO
props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would
recommend
them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good
props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get
from
an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link
then
the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost.
This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several
different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different
props.
I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a
2
stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
<snip>
Well I certainly won't argue with you...My prop "fiddl'in" was all on
503 powered Challenger, and 618 powered Renegade. My 912 time is all in
various RANS planes, and they were pretty adamant about Warp or
Sensenich wood props...(by the way Sensenich was displaying a ground
adjustable COMPOSITE prop at the Light-sport expo thing in Sebring, FL.
last fall, RANS was testing it at that time. Looked VERY nice! )
Will be getting in touch soon as I get going on my "new" 10 year old
Series 5 kit...want some of your underseat storage bins...
Glad to hear someone else weary of 2 strokes and inflight adjustable
props...not a combination for the 2 stroke newbie...
Jeremy Casey
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
I have seen the Sensenich adjustable prop.. very nicely done.. Of course
wouldn't expect anything else from them... General observations.. quick to
adjust and very well manufactured.... Thought it was a little on the heavy
side and I thought I heard someone say they were approx $1800 a little steep
but it may be worth it... Haven't flown it yet.. Another prop I will be
flying behind this winter is the Hot Prop (Kiev Prop).. Had some good
reports about it....
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" <n79rt@kilocharlie.us>
Reply at bottom...
<snip>
For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S
powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S
powered
aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or
Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster,
Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO
props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would
recommend
them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good
props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get
from
an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link
then
the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost.
This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several
different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different
props.
I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a
2
stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
<snip>
Well I certainly won't argue with you...My prop "fiddl'in" was all on
503 powered Challenger, and 618 powered Renegade. My 912 time is all in
various RANS planes, and they were pretty adamant about Warp or
Sensenich wood props...(by the way Sensenich was displaying a ground
adjustable COMPOSITE prop at the Light-sport expo thing in Sebring, FL.
last fall, RANS was testing it at that time. Looked VERY nice! )
Will be getting in touch soon as I get going on my "new" 10 year old
Series 5 kit...want some of your underseat storage bins...
Glad to hear someone else weary of 2 strokes and inflight adjustable
props...not a combination for the 2 stroke newbie...
Jeremy Casey
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dennis Kerr" <dck44@bendbroadband.com>
I too was missing pages in my S-7 manual and just a few days ago they
emailed me pages 49-102 of the final assembly section. Came through no
problem and I printed them out and put them in my manual. Don't know about
the S-5 manual.
Dennis Kerr
S-7 under construction
N244DK (reserved)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rkstevens@verizon.net
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Missing pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: <rkstevens@verizon.net>
I seem to recall asking SkyStar about electronic documents at one point
several years ago. The short answer was...they don't. Had something to do
with the software they use to produce the documents. They aren't using MS
Word or other like product. As I recall, you need to have the same software
product on your machine to view the docs and most people don't have access
to that software.
Ron
>From: Joel Mapes <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri Sep 30 10:38:01 CDT 2005
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
>
>It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final
Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this
document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not
this.
>
>Joel
>
>
Message 12
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pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" <eccles@chartermi.net>
Robert
I have 135 pages of the chapter X if that helps , i could scan the ones you
need.. let me know if i can be of some help
Steve
N642SE/0-200 Series V
Eagle Lake MN,
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris,
Robert
Subject: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..RE: Kitfox-List: Miss
ing pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert"
<Robert_Harris@intuit.com>
Hi Joel,
I'm missing some info in my manual too but I'm not sure what chapter. If I
have Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.00) I'll mail a copy to you
in exchange for a copy of my missing pages. I'll check my manual this
evening and e-mail you. Feel free to call me on my cell phone 760-415-1810
or home 760-451-1179
Robert
N200KF/0200 Series V
San Diego
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joel Mapes
Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final
Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this
document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not
this.
Joel
Message 13
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| Subject: | KF nose over after deadstick landing? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" <s.j.bryant@sbcglobal.net>
http://www.mercedsun-star.com/local/story/11288507p-12038163c.html
Looks like a 'fox to me, though the picture is not good enough to read the N
number.
Anyone know Frank? I don't see anything resembling a Kitfox or Avid
registered to his name... I'm curious as to what powerplant he was running.
Hopefully he'll be able to have her back together & in the air soon. As it
is said, "any landing you can walk away from..."
Stu
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