---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/30/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:41 AM - Missing pages (Joel Mapes) 2. 08:49 AM - Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Michael Gibbs) 3. 08:55 AM - Red Bull Air Race at San Francisco (Bruce Harrington) 4. 09:18 AM - Re: Missing pages () 5. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Jeremy Casey) 6. 10:59 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (jdmcbean) 7. 11:00 AM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Aerobatics@aol.com) 8. 11:16 AM - I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..Re: Miss (Harris, Robert) 9. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (Jeremy Casey) 10. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 (jdmcbean) 11. 05:36 PM - Re: Missing pages (Dennis Kerr) 12. 07:13 PM - Re: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..Re: Miss ing pages (eccles) 13. 10:51 PM - KF nose over after deadstick landing? (Stu Bryant) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:38 AM PST US From: "Joel Mapes" Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this. Joel ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:49:18 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs >Later was loaned a 2 blade Warp Drive to try and set to a fixed >pitch, it out performed the adjustable IVO in all respects... That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed transmission. The best thing about an in-flight adjustable for a two stroke engine is that you can easily keep the RPM in the fairly narrow range that the engine likes while varying the power setting with throttle. With a fixed pitch prop you'll very quickly take the RPM outside of the happy zone, while with the adjustable you can keep in there at almost any throttle setting. >...the IVO's are just not go fast props. Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS (Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of performance at both ends of the speed envelope. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:42 AM PST US From: "Bruce Harrington" "Kitfox List" Subject: Kitfox-List: Red Bull Air Race at San Francisco --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bruce Harrington" For those around the San Francisco area, check out the Red Bull Air race here: http://www.redbullairrace.com/ Location: San Francisco Bay during Fleetweek Airshow Date: Oct.08. Start Time: 12:45 pm local PST Admission: General viewing is FREE at Marina Green and Aquatic Park. Should be a fun race. Cheers, Bruce ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:54 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: I seem to recall asking SkyStar about electronic documents at one point several years ago. The short answer was...they don't. Had something to do with the software they use to produce the documents. They aren't using MS Word or other like product. As I recall, you need to have the same software product on your machine to view the docs and most people don't have access to that software. Ron >From: Joel Mapes >Date: Fri Sep 30 10:38:01 CDT 2005 >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" > >It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this. > >Joel > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:11 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed transmission. If the one with the five-speed had a slipping clutch then things are a little different;-) The lightweight IVO's are not very efficient props compared to a Warp or even Powerfin. I say that after trying them on the same airframe...no I don't have testing from the AMES research center to back up my claim. What I can tell you is that on a Challenger 2 ultralight the thing cruised 6-7 mph faster with a Warp 2 blade and climbed approx 100 fpm better than the IVO...results on friends Murphy Renegade were similar. Props are just like wings, different airfoils, different surface finishes, Reynolds numbers, etc...all have an effect. Talking props can be like talked politics, religion, or 2 stroke oils...can end up in a fight. I fully understand the benefits of an inflight adjustable prop...I'm saying that in the speed/performance band we're talking about, the performance advantage of the WARP outweighs the improvement of the adjustable IVO. Not trying to sound like I'm just bashing IVO, cause they do come out on top in a couple of key areas from my experience...the are LIGHTER (significantly lower moment of inertia which is easier on the gearbox), they are SMOOTHER (the benefit of being so doggone flexible...absorbs vibration), and they are a fair amount CHEAPER...all admireable points. I say again that inflight adjustable on a 2 stroke CAN (and I stress CAN, not WILL) be a problem. If you fully understand the idiosyncrasies of a 2 stroke then knock yourself out. >...the IVO's are just not go fast props. Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS (Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of performance at both ends of the speed envelope. Mike G. N728KF Then let me back up the baloney...I should have specified the lightweight IVO...the original message was in reference to a 582...I assumed the lightweight IVO...I have no experience with the medium version...sounds like it is really working well for you. As I will probably be using a 912S on the Series 5 kit that I just bought, that gives me another option to consider... Question...does the Medium still adjust by twisting the blades? It seems like a pretty simple way to do it, but I think part of the problem with the lightweight prop was that the blades didn't all twist the same amount. A&P friend that has a dynamic prop balancing computer tried to dynamic balance a lightweight IVO and the computer about freaked out...reading bounced everywhere, finally decided it was due to blades flexing so much. Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:18 AM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S powered aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster, Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would recommend them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get from an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link then the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost. This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different props. I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a 2 stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" That just doesn't make any sense at all, Jeremy. It's like saying that a car with one gear could outperform one with a five speed transmission. If the one with the five-speed had a slipping clutch then things are a little different;-) The lightweight IVO's are not very efficient props compared to a Warp or even Powerfin. I say that after trying them on the same airframe...no I don't have testing from the AMES research center to back up my claim. What I can tell you is that on a Challenger 2 ultralight the thing cruised 6-7 mph faster with a Warp 2 blade and climbed approx 100 fpm better than the IVO...results on friends Murphy Renegade were similar. Props are just like wings, different airfoils, different surface finishes, Reynolds numbers, etc...all have an effect. Talking props can be like talked politics, religion, or 2 stroke oils...can end up in a fight. I fully understand the benefits of an inflight adjustable prop...I'm saying that in the speed/performance band we're talking about, the performance advantage of the WARP outweighs the improvement of the adjustable IVO. Not trying to sound like I'm just bashing IVO, cause they do come out on top in a couple of key areas from my experience...the are LIGHTER (significantly lower moment of inertia which is easier on the gearbox), they are SMOOTHER (the benefit of being so doggone flexible...absorbs vibration), and they are a fair amount CHEAPER...all admireable points. I say again that inflight adjustable on a 2 stroke CAN (and I stress CAN, not WILL) be a problem. If you fully understand the idiosyncrasies of a 2 stroke then knock yourself out. >...the IVO's are just not go fast props. Baloney. I had a three-bladed Ivo medium on my 912S powered Kitfox IV-1200 and I could hit Vne (140 MPH) in level flight. On the low end, I used a digital level to measure the pitch angle at 55 KIAS (Vx) and it could climb out at sustained 40 degrees nose up! There's no way on the planet a fixed pitch prop could produce that kind of performance at both ends of the speed envelope. Mike G. N728KF Then let me back up the baloney...I should have specified the lightweight IVO...the original message was in reference to a 582...I assumed the lightweight IVO...I have no experience with the medium version...sounds like it is really working well for you. As I will probably be using a 912S on the Series 5 kit that I just bought, that gives me another option to consider... Question...does the Medium still adjust by twisting the blades? It seems like a pretty simple way to do it, but I think part of the problem with the lightweight prop was that the blades didn't all twist the same amount. A&P friend that has a dynamic prop balancing computer tried to dynamic balance a lightweight IVO and the computer about freaked out...reading bounced everywhere, finally decided it was due to blades flexing so much. Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:29 AM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com Curious are you comparing a 3 blade IVO to a 2 Blade warp? As for Reynolds number they should be close enough, ie speed and cord seem close to me, but props certainly do vary. Thats what is great about us connecting to compare! I had a CGS ( I think) wooden 3 blade and went to an Ivo, and at one pitch, I climbed better, crusied faster at same RPM. I might also add, I am very fussy about my props, I try to keep them spotless. You wil be surprised n the difference! Still seriously concidering the in flight Adj IVO.... Dave KF2 582 BH IVO ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:58 AM PST US From: "Harris, Robert" Subject: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..RE: Kitfox-List: Miss ing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" Hi Joel, I'm missing some info in my manual too but I'm not sure what chapter. If I have Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.00) I'll mail a copy to you in exchange for a copy of my missing pages. I'll check my manual this evening and e-mail you. Feel free to call me on my cell phone 760-415-1810 or home 760-451-1179 Robert N200KF/0200 Series V San Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joel Mapes Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this. Joel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:58 PM PST US From: "Jeremy Casey" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" Reply at bottom... For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S powered aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster, Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would recommend them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get from an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link then the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost. This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different props. I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a 2 stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" Well I certainly won't argue with you...My prop "fiddl'in" was all on 503 powered Challenger, and 618 powered Renegade. My 912 time is all in various RANS planes, and they were pretty adamant about Warp or Sensenich wood props...(by the way Sensenich was displaying a ground adjustable COMPOSITE prop at the Light-sport expo thing in Sebring, FL. last fall, RANS was testing it at that time. Looked VERY nice! ) Will be getting in touch soon as I get going on my "new" 10 year old Series 5 kit...want some of your underseat storage bins... Glad to hear someone else weary of 2 strokes and inflight adjustable props...not a combination for the 2 stroke newbie... Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:32 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" I have seen the Sensenich adjustable prop.. very nicely done.. Of course wouldn't expect anything else from them... General observations.. quick to adjust and very well manufactured.... Thought it was a little on the heavy side and I thought I heard someone say they were approx $1800 a little steep but it may be worth it... Haven't flown it yet.. Another prop I will be flying behind this winter is the Hot Prop (Kiev Prop).. Had some good reports about it.... Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeremy Casey Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC GTA In-Flight on my Series 3 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jeremy Casey" Reply at bottom... For the record... with well over 1000 hours behind the Warp on a 912S powered Kitfox specifically and an IVO light prop on my Kitfox 912S powered aircraft I can tell you that I will out climb and out cruise the Warp or Powerfin. I have even flown behind GSC in-flight adjustable, Airmaster, Prop Link, and ArPlast. All on Kitfox's. I do not sell and operate IVO props because they are not efficient.. just the opposite. I would recommend them to anyone... Is the Warp or Powerfin bad props.. No, they are good props.. you just won't get the performance from them that you can get from an IVO... If you get the in-flight adjustable Airmaster or Prop Link then the performance becomes very similar but at 3 to 5 times the cost. This experience is based on a lot of personal flight time in several different Kitfox's as well as testing the same Kitfox with different props. I will say that operating an adjustable prop... any adjustable prop on a 2 stroke can have its issues.... Pitch change can effect EGT's. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" Well I certainly won't argue with you...My prop "fiddl'in" was all on 503 powered Challenger, and 618 powered Renegade. My 912 time is all in various RANS planes, and they were pretty adamant about Warp or Sensenich wood props...(by the way Sensenich was displaying a ground adjustable COMPOSITE prop at the Light-sport expo thing in Sebring, FL. last fall, RANS was testing it at that time. Looked VERY nice! ) Will be getting in touch soon as I get going on my "new" 10 year old Series 5 kit...want some of your underseat storage bins... Glad to hear someone else weary of 2 strokes and inflight adjustable props...not a combination for the 2 stroke newbie... Jeremy Casey ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:18 PM PST US From: "Dennis Kerr" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dennis Kerr" I too was missing pages in my S-7 manual and just a few days ago they emailed me pages 49-102 of the final assembly section. Came through no problem and I printed them out and put them in my manual. Don't know about the S-5 manual. Dennis Kerr S-7 under construction N244DK (reserved) -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rkstevens@verizon.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: I seem to recall asking SkyStar about electronic documents at one point several years ago. The short answer was...they don't. Had something to do with the software they use to produce the documents. They aren't using MS Word or other like product. As I recall, you need to have the same software product on your machine to view the docs and most people don't have access to that software. Ron >From: Joel Mapes >Date: Fri Sep 30 10:38:01 CDT 2005 >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" > >It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this. > >Joel > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:47 PM PST US From: "eccles" Subject: RE: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..RE: Kitfox-List: Miss ing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" Robert I have 135 pages of the chapter X if that helps , i could scan the ones you need.. let me know if i can be of some help Steve N642SE/0-200 Series V Eagle Lake MN, -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Harris, Robert Subject: I'll send you Chapter X in Exchange for ..RE: Kitfox-List: Miss ing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Harris, Robert" Hi Joel, I'm missing some info in my manual too but I'm not sure what chapter. If I have Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.00) I'll mail a copy to you in exchange for a copy of my missing pages. I'll check my manual this evening and e-mail you. Feel free to call me on my cell phone 760-415-1810 or home 760-451-1179 Robert N200KF/0200 Series V San Diego -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joel Mapes Subject: Kitfox-List: Missing pages --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" It seems I am missing a few pages from my Series 5 manual, Chapter X, Final Assembly (Document 10191.000) Is there an electronic version of this document available? I check Skystar.com and found some great info, but not this. Joel ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:54 PM PST US From: "Stu Bryant" Subject: Kitfox-List: KF nose over after deadstick landing? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Stu Bryant" http://www.mercedsun-star.com/local/story/11288507p-12038163c.html Looks like a 'fox to me, though the picture is not good enough to read the N number. Anyone know Frank? I don't see anything resembling a Kitfox or Avid registered to his name... I'm curious as to what powerplant he was running. Hopefully he'll be able to have her back together & in the air soon. As it is said, "any landing you can walk away from..." Stu --