---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/02/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Fuel tanks photos (Graeme Toft) 2. 05:16 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Bradley M Webb) 3. 07:35 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters forward to Dan G (Aerobatics@aol.com) 4. 08:26 AM - Re: Door latch sources (Michael Gibbs) 5. 09:15 AM - mag end electric starter for Rotax 582 (Clem Nichols) 6. 09:46 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Bob Robertson) 7. 11:35 AM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Bradley M Webb) 8. 11:42 AM - Aircraft lighting alternatives (Bradley M Webb) 9. 03:43 PM - 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (Randy Daughenbaugh) 10. 03:53 PM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Andy Fultz) 11. 04:24 PM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Bob Robertson) 12. 04:26 PM - Re: Fuel Flow Meters (Bob Robertson) 13. 04:30 PM - Re: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (Alan & Linda Daniels) 14. 04:48 PM - Re: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (Clifford Begnaud) 15. 04:58 PM - Advice needed (Sid Hausding) 16. 08:04 PM - Elevator Trim systems (Cudnohufsky's) 17. 08:37 PM - Re: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (jdmcbean) 18. 09:42 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Alan & Linda Daniels) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:56 AM PST US From: "Graeme Toft" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel tanks photos --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" For those interested I have uploaded photos of the fuel tank defects at Sportsflight in the defects section. Cheers Graeme Toft Queensland Safety Solutions Ph: 07 49397011 Mob: 0411476527 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:10 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" The most major mod I know of is the addition of the word "aviation" to the product description. I think you'll find that this "value-added" feature is directly proportional to the price increase of anything destined to leave terra-firma. Don't you know that when shopping for airplane parts, the word "airplane" is strictly "verboten" in the conversation? Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Fultz Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" Graeme, Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods done. Andy F. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm this info. Cheers Graeme Toft ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the NAVMAN > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one in > my > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments appreciated. > > Andy F. > AVID Speedwing > STRATUS EA-81 > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:01 AM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters forward to Dan G --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:47 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Door latch sources --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Bradley sez: >I removed and tossed the door latches that were there. Stupid, cuz >my locating a suitable sub is harder than I thought. Murle Williams sells door latches that are easier to install and more secure than the factory originals. Check them out at: Or contact Murle at: Murle.Williams@gmail.com (602) 978-0553 Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:21 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Kitfox-List: mag end electric starter for Rotax 582 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clem Nichols" Does anyone in the group have a working mag end starter for a Rotax 582 for sale? If so, please contact me off list. Thanks Clem Nichols Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:05 AM PST US From: "Bob Robertson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi Graeme,Shorty and all.... Hope y'all had a great holiday break..... Now....Fuel Flow meters i.e. NAVMAN et al. I have had both units so I can answer some of your questions. The difference between the Navman (marine) and the Mizer (aviation) is how the transducer is packaged. The marine unit has no protection around the transducer. The weak point in the transducer is the plastic barbed fittings onto which you mount your fuel hoses. In a marine application, I believe the transducers are simply mounted to a couple of brackets and secured to any bulkhead. On the MIZER unit (aviation) the transducer is mounted inside a metal "bottle" (removeable top). There is a vibration absorbing foam layer around the transducer. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a vent line to pipe any leakage outside the engine compartment should the transducer spring a leak. There has already been one aviation accident (very unhappy ending) where the transducer is suspect in an inflight fire. I have looked carefully at both transducers and cannot see any difference. It seems the big difference is in HOW the unit in mounted. My current project uses a NAVMAN transducer mounted on antivibration mounts and enclosed inside a containter with a drain to the exterior of the plane. We will be producing our own LCD screens for read outs so the only part from NAVMAN we will be using is the transducer). Our screens will have "total fuel on board/fuel used/time on this leg/total time on tank/consumption rate and hours and minuted till dry tank". All parameters are user settable and the unit has a low fuel alarm built in. We have a few beta units in use...one on our test stand with over a years use and no problems. No idea at present as to how much this will cost, but hope to have an info packet vailable in a couple of months. If you do have any fuel monitoring equipment on board, it is advisable to place the transducer inside a cannister into which any leakage can be vented overboard. Just my two cents worth...... regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > Graeme, > > Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To > justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods > done. > > Andy F. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" > > Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. > The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are > infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar > enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm > this info. > > Cheers > Graeme Toft > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Fultz" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > > > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the NAVMAN > > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one in > > my > > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments appreciated. > > > > Andy F. > > AVID Speedwing > > STRATUS EA-81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:58 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" Could the breakage/leak/fire issue be solved by placing the unit in front of the firewall? You could, for example, "shock" mount it, and build a stainless box around it with the bottom open. I'm imagining a position on the firewall, in one of the lower corners, maybe near a gascolator, or at least where a gascolator would be. Make it easier to inspect on pre-flight. .02 FWIW, Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi Graeme,Shorty and all.... Hope y'all had a great holiday break..... Now....Fuel Flow meters i.e. NAVMAN et al. I have had both units so I can answer some of your questions. The difference between the Navman (marine) and the Mizer (aviation) is how the transducer is packaged. The marine unit has no protection around the transducer. The weak point in the transducer is the plastic barbed fittings onto which you mount your fuel hoses. In a marine application, I believe the transducers are simply mounted to a couple of brackets and secured to any bulkhead. On the MIZER unit (aviation) the transducer is mounted inside a metal "bottle" (removeable top). There is a vibration absorbing foam layer around the transducer. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a vent line to pipe any leakage outside the engine compartment should the transducer spring a leak. There has already been one aviation accident (very unhappy ending) where the transducer is suspect in an inflight fire. I have looked carefully at both transducers and cannot see any difference. It seems the big difference is in HOW the unit in mounted. My current project uses a NAVMAN transducer mounted on antivibration mounts and enclosed inside a containter with a drain to the exterior of the plane. We will be producing our own LCD screens for read outs so the only part from NAVMAN we will be using is the transducer). Our screens will have "total fuel on board/fuel used/time on this leg/total time on tank/consumption rate and hours and minuted till dry tank". All parameters are user settable and the unit has a low fuel alarm built in. We have a few beta units in use...one on our test stand with over a years use and no problems. No idea at present as to how much this will cost, but hope to have an info packet vailable in a couple of months. If you do have any fuel monitoring equipment on board, it is advisable to place the transducer inside a cannister into which any leakage can be vented overboard. Just my two cents worth...... regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > Graeme, > > Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To > justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods > done. > > Andy F. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" > > Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. > The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are > infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar > enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm > this info. > > Cheers > Graeme Toft > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Fultz" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > > > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the NAVMAN > > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one in > > my > > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments appreciated. > > > > Andy F. > > AVID Speedwing > > STRATUS EA-81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:34 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: Kitfox-List: Aircraft lighting alternatives --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" Surfing around eBay (imagine that!), and found these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item=7734553016&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Has anyone thought about using these? Seems a good buy for our a/c, and certainly cheaper than av-specific products. Also, How about these for wingtip position lights http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &rd=1,1&item=4581239825&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT Now.yes I know of the FAA position lite requirement, and the field of view, but these would be close enough, I think. Call me cheap, but I have a real problem dropping huge amounts of cash on the stuff I've seen that are FAA approved. You'd think they're made of gold. I ain't flying a 767, after all. Bradley KF2 N1836 Middle GA ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:45 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped me pull the cowl off. By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were fine, but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking the coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 before it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. This still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container and it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to this happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it would have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to boil the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and blown air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in any of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this blooping of coolant. I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head temps on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 hours of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the radiator surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for more than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part of the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated the situation. Any advice would be appreciated. Lesson Learned I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and I was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was surprised to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in the oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what to expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container should be when the engine is hot. Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:08 PM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" Thanks, Bob. That's the kind of info we need to get and it all makes sense. Will your display be a standard 2" hole mount or something different? Andy F. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob Robertson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi Graeme,Shorty and all.... Hope y'all had a great holiday break..... Now....Fuel Flow meters i.e. NAVMAN et al. I have had both units so I can answer some of your questions. The difference between the Navman (marine) and the Mizer (aviation) is how the transducer is packaged. The marine unit has no protection around the transducer. The weak point in the transducer is the plastic barbed fittings onto which you mount your fuel hoses. In a marine application, I believe the transducers are simply mounted to a couple of brackets and secured to any bulkhead. On the MIZER unit (aviation) the transducer is mounted inside a metal "bottle" (removeable top). There is a vibration absorbing foam layer around the transducer. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a vent line to pipe any leakage outside the engine compartment should the transducer spring a leak. There has already been one aviation accident (very unhappy ending) where the transducer is suspect in an inflight fire. I have looked carefully at both transducers and cannot see any difference. It seems the big difference is in HOW the unit in mounted. My current project uses a NAVMAN transducer mounted on antivibration mounts and enclosed inside a containter with a drain to the exterior of the plane. We will be producing our own LCD screens for read outs so the only part from NAVMAN we will be using is the transducer). Our screens will have "total fuel on board/fuel used/time on this leg/total time on tank/consumption rate and hours and minuted till dry tank". All parameters are user settable and the unit has a low fuel alarm built in. We have a few beta units in use...one on our test stand with over a years use and no problems. No idea at present as to how much this will cost, but hope to have an info packet vailable in a couple of months. If you do have any fuel monitoring equipment on board, it is advisable to place the transducer inside a cannister into which any leakage can be vented overboard. Just my two cents worth...... regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > Graeme, > > Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To > justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods > done. > > Andy F. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" > > Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. > The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are > infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar > enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm > this info. > > Cheers > Graeme Toft > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Fultz" > To: > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > > > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the NAVMAN > > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one in > > my > > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments appreciated. > > > > Andy F. > > AVID Speedwing > > STRATUS EA-81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:18 PM PST US From: "Bob Robertson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Bradley, We will be mounting it on the firewall with some good shock mounts... The cannister we will be mounting it in has to be high enough off the bottom of the firewall to allow the fuel hose to flow out the bottom of the cannister and make a 90 degree turn. We have resigned ourselves to copy, pretty much, what Mizer is doing with their aviation units. We will be running a vent line overboard thats for sure.! regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" > > Could the breakage/leak/fire issue be solved by placing the unit in front of > the firewall? You could, for example, "shock" mount it, and build a > stainless box around it with the bottom open. I'm imagining a position on > the firewall, in one of the lower corners, maybe near a gascolator, or at > least where a gascolator would be. Make it easier to inspect on pre-flight. > > .02 FWIW, > Bradley > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" > > > Hi Graeme,Shorty and all.... > > Hope y'all had a great holiday break..... Now....Fuel Flow meters i.e. > NAVMAN et al. > I have had both units so I can answer some of your questions. > The difference between the Navman (marine) and the Mizer (aviation) is how > the transducer is packaged. > The marine unit has no protection around the transducer. The weak point in > the transducer is the plastic barbed fittings > onto which you mount your fuel hoses. In a marine application, I believe > the transducers are simply mounted to a couple of brackets and secured to > any bulkhead. > On the MIZER unit (aviation) the transducer is mounted inside a metal > "bottle" (removeable top). There is a vibration absorbing foam layer around > the transducer. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a vent > line to pipe any leakage > outside the engine compartment should the transducer spring a leak. > > There has already been one aviation accident (very unhappy ending) where the > transducer is suspect in an inflight fire. I have looked carefully at both > transducers and cannot see any difference. It seems the big difference is > in HOW the unit in mounted. > > My current project uses a NAVMAN transducer mounted on antivibration mounts > and enclosed inside a containter with a drain to the exterior of the plane. > We will be producing our own LCD screens for read outs so the only part from > NAVMAN we will be using is the transducer). Our screens will have "total > fuel on board/fuel used/time on this leg/total time on tank/consumption rate > and hours and minuted till dry tank". All parameters are user settable and > the unit has a low fuel alarm built in. We have a few beta units in > use...one on our test stand with over a years use and no problems. No idea > at present as to how much this will cost, but hope to have an info packet > vailable in a couple of months. > > If you do have any fuel monitoring equipment on board, it is advisable to > place the transducer inside a cannister into which any leakage can be vented > overboard. > > Just my two cents worth...... > > regards > > Bob Robertson > Light Engine Services Ltd. > Rotax Service Center > Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. > St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 > Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 > Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) > www.rtx-av-engines.ca > www.aerocontrols.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Fultz" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > Graeme, > > > > Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To > > justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods > > done. > > > > Andy F. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" > > > > Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. > > The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are > > infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar > > enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm > > this info. > > > > Cheers > > Graeme Toft > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andy Fultz" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > > > > > > > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the > NAVMAN > > > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one > in > > > my > > > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > > > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments > appreciated. > > > > > > Andy F. > > > AVID Speedwing > > > STRATUS EA-81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:50 PM PST US From: "Bob Robertson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Andy.... our display will be 3.5" wide by 1.5in high...Will have two lines of type. regards Bob R ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > Thanks, Bob. That's the kind of info we need to get and it all makes sense. > Will your display be a standard 2" hole mount or something different? > > Andy F. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob > Robertson > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" > > > Hi Graeme,Shorty and all.... > > Hope y'all had a great holiday break..... Now....Fuel Flow meters i.e. > NAVMAN et al. > I have had both units so I can answer some of your questions. > The difference between the Navman (marine) and the Mizer (aviation) is how > the transducer is packaged. > The marine unit has no protection around the transducer. The weak point in > the transducer is the plastic barbed fittings > onto which you mount your fuel hoses. In a marine application, I believe > the transducers are simply mounted to a couple of brackets and secured to > any bulkhead. > On the MIZER unit (aviation) the transducer is mounted inside a metal > "bottle" (removeable top). There is a vibration absorbing foam layer around > the transducer. If my memory serves me correctly, there is also a vent > line to pipe any leakage > outside the engine compartment should the transducer spring a leak. > > There has already been one aviation accident (very unhappy ending) where the > transducer is suspect in an inflight fire. I have looked carefully at both > transducers and cannot see any difference. It seems the big difference is > in HOW the unit in mounted. > > My current project uses a NAVMAN transducer mounted on antivibration mounts > and enclosed inside a containter with a drain to the exterior of the plane. > We will be producing our own LCD screens for read outs so the only part from > NAVMAN we will be using is the transducer). Our screens will have "total > fuel on board/fuel used/time on this leg/total time on tank/consumption rate > and hours and minuted till dry tank". All parameters are user settable and > the unit has a low fuel alarm built in. We have a few beta units in > use...one on our test stand with over a years use and no problems. No idea > at present as to how much this will cost, but hope to have an info packet > vailable in a couple of months. > > If you do have any fuel monitoring equipment on board, it is advisable to > place the transducer inside a cannister into which any leakage can be vented > overboard. > > Just my two cents worth...... > > regards > > Bob Robertson > Light Engine Services Ltd. > Rotax Service Center > Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. > St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 > Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 > Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) > www.rtx-av-engines.ca > www.aerocontrols.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Fultz" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > Graeme, > > > > Did the distributor say exactly what modifications had been made? To > > justify the price difference there must have been some really serious mods > > done. > > > > Andy F. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" > > > > Andy, I had a navman fuel flow system in my KF model 1 and it worked fine. > > The fuel mizer is a navman with additions to prevent leakage etc. They are > > infact a converted navman. Thats the info I recieved when I made similar > > enquiries to your own, in fact I rang the Australia distributer to confirm > > this info. > > > > Cheers > > Graeme Toft > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andy Fultz" > > To: > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel Flow Meters > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" > > > > > > > > > > > > Is anybody in the group using or do you know anybody that uses the > NAVMAN > > > F2100 Fuel Flow Meter? I'm trying to decide whether or not to put one > in > > > my > > > panel. It looks to be nearly identical to the MIZER sold by Spruce, but > > > less than half the price fo the MIZER. Any and all comments > appreciated. > > > > > > Andy F. > > > AVID Speedwing > > > STRATUS EA-81 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:38 PM PST US From: Alan & Linda Daniels Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels Two things to check. #1 Did you increase the size of the overflow tank cap vent hole. I don't understand why this causes a problem but was warned that it might. #2 Check to see if the return hose going to the water pump shows signs of collapse. We had one that would suck shut when it got hot and cause coolant to blow out the overflow tank. This probably is not the problem because it would show up as high head/coolant temp but check it anyway. On a 7 Firewall Forward if you use the provided hose I think is in real risk of collapse due to the bend around the engine mount. I use a molded hose from NAPA that has solved the problem. Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > >Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some >splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures >were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped me >pull the cowl off. > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:14 PM PST US From: "Clifford Begnaud" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clifford Begnaud" Randy, Do you have cabin heat that uses hot water? If so, do you have a control valve to turn flow on and off to the heater core? It's possible with this type heater to have an air bubble in the system that has been sitting there waiting for the most inoportune time to work it's way into the engine. If this happens it would rapidly expand and blow a bunch of coolant out into the bottle.... You can guess how I know about this... Best Regards, Cliff > > > Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some > splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures > were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped > me > pull the cowl off. > > By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was > expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were fine, > but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the > fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking > the > coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 > before > it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. This > still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. > > My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container > and > it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I > haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to > this > happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to > add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it > would > have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - > Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. > > Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to boil > the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My > guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the > problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and > blown > air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in > any > of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this > blooping of coolant. > > I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head temps > on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 > hours > of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the > radiator > surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I > climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for > more > than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part of > the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated the > situation. > > Any advice would be appreciated. > > Lesson Learned > I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and I > was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was > surprised > to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all > the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in > the > oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) > > Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what > to > expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container > should > be when the engine is hot. > > Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. > > Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S > > . > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:30 PM PST US From: Sid Hausding Subject: Kitfox-List: Advice needed --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Sid Hausding Randy, I'm having some problems with my truck system now and have discovered this site and the listed links as invaluable in understanding more............even read something about forcing fluid to the overflow when hot and sucking it back into the system as it cools.........in a form of abnormal operation. www.troubleshooters.com/toverheat.htm Sid good luck in diagnosing your problems.........working on mine. ---------------------------------- Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped me pull the cowl off. By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were fine, but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking the coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 before it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. This still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container and it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to this happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it would have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to boil the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and blown air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in any of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this blooping of coolant. I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head temps on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 hours of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the radiator surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for more than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part of the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated the situation. Any advice would be appreciated. Lesson Learned I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and I was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was surprised to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in the oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what to expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container should be when the engine is hot. Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S . --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:12 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> All, I am reworking a Model 5 that originally had the Electric Elevator Trim Screw. I was intending on changing it to the trim tabs on the elevator and replacing the Electric ElevatorTrim Screw with the hard link similar to the retro kit that Skyster was offering. I was recently challenged on that thought and was wondering what those of you out there flying either the adjustable horizontal stab, the elevator trim tabs or both feel about the subject? Which do you like and why? Thanks, Lloyd ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:55 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" Randy, Most likely had an air bubble in the system... another thing to check is the location of the Overflow bottle.. should be lower then the expansion tank. Check the hole in the cap as well.. I believe there was a service bulletin on that issue. Have a Safe New Year !! John & Debra McBean www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Subject: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped me pull the cowl off. By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were fine, but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking the coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 before it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. This still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container and it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to this happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it would have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to boil the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and blown air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in any of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this blooping of coolant. I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head temps on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 hours of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the radiator surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for more than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part of the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated the situation. Any advice would be appreciated. Lesson Learned I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and I was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was surprised to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in the oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what to expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container should be when the engine is hot. Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S .. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:16 PM PST US From: Alan & Linda Daniels Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels I have built and flown both. Both are good, the manual system is faster to set for touch and go's, the electric is a little easier to fine tune to hold altitude. The manual also is much heavier on the stick while in the flair and on the ground, unless of course you use John McBeans super system. The best is IMHO the electric with an oversized elevator, but I like to be able to roll the tailwheel before the mains touch, even with big tires. The down side is that at that AOA the wing will really pay off and drop you so if you are a little high when that happens you drop it in. I got a set of VG I am wanting to try to see if that helps, but even if you drop it in if you hold the stick back you are down safe and short. Cudnohufsky's wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> > >All, >I am reworking a Model 5 that originally had the Electric Elevator Trim >Screw. I was intending on changing it to the trim tabs on the elevator and >replacing the Electric ElevatorTrim Screw with the hard link similar to the >retro kit that Skyster was offering. I was recently challenged on that >thought and was wondering what those of you out there flying either the >adjustable horizontal stab, the elevator trim tabs or both feel about the >subject? Which do you like and why? >Thanks, >Lloyd > > > > > > > > >