---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/04/06: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:26 AM - Re: Header tank fittings (Fox5flyer) 2. 05:37 AM - Re: Header tank fittings (Dill Family) 3. 05:56 AM - Re: Header tank fittings (Randy Daughenbaugh) 4. 05:56 AM - Re: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (Randy Daughenbaugh) 5. 06:14 AM - Re: header tank fittings (Dill Family) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. (Lowell Fitt) 7. 07:29 AM - Re: Header tank fittings (Lowell Fitt) 8. 07:43 AM - Re: Header tank fittings (Ron Liebmann) 9. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Header tank fittings (Guy Buchanan) 10. 01:13 PM - Intake manifolds (Bradley M Webb) 11. 03:42 PM - Re: NEW BERN N.C. NEW KITFOX IV PLAY SPEEDSTER (jboatm16) 12. 04:32 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Cudnohufsky's) 13. 04:35 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Cudnohufsky's) 14. 04:42 PM - Leakage (Rex & Jan Shaw) 15. 06:24 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (wingsdown) 16. 06:39 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Lowell Fitt) 17. 07:49 PM - Re: Leakage (John King) 18. 08:01 PM - Re: Leakage (James Shumaker) 19. 08:07 PM - Re: Re: Header tank fittings (Cudnohufsky's) 20. 08:46 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (wingsdown) 21. 10:08 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:00 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" Jeff, all pipe thread (NPT) fittings are measured via inside diameter (ID). The 3/8" fittings you bought were the correct size. There are several ways to plumb the tank. You can use the brass fittings with barb ends so that the hose runs all the way from the tank to the header. This is a perfectly acceptable way of doing it and is the way the manual states. It also allows lots of flexibility in the line. The downside is that if you have a leak that you need to repair, it can be very difficult to remove the fuel line from the barbed fitting and usually destroys the end of the hose. Another way is to install a 3/8 nptXflare fitting and use aluminum the way you would like to do below. If you use AN aluminum fittings then you need a 37 degree flare tool. They're pricey, but usually can be borrowed. The easiest way is to use brass fittings so that you can use a standard 45 degree flare that are available pretty much anywhere. Nothing wrong with it. The downside is slightly more weight. The advantage to using the flare fittings is that you can remove the fitting to service the header tank without destroying the hoses. If I were to do this again, I'd probably go this route. Use high quality hose fitting sealer. Locktite, Oatey, Permatex are a few brands and have many to choose from. Just ensure the one you use is compatible with the materials you're sealing. Hope this helps a little. Deke > > Let's see if I can ask this question without looking as stupid as I feel. I am trying to purchase NPT and AN fittings to install a behind the seat header tank in my model 2. One of the guys provided me with a used tank without fittings and I am trying to order what I need. I went into the local auto parts store and the guy matched a fitting with one of the holes and called it a 3/8" fitting. I can see with my eyes that the hole is bigger than a half inch, but didn't question him about it. (I bought some fittings from him that fit, but they are brass and I would rather switch to aluminum). Now, with ruler in hand, I am measuring that hole to be 5/8", but I see the chart in the Aircraft Spruce book which sizes the fittings by the "theoretical I.D. of fittings". I could conceive that they are referring to the inner diameter of the line that the fitting attaches, but there are pictures in the catalogue that, if to scale, contradict that notion. If I have made any sense so f! > ar, could somebody give me a clue about how to identify the sizes I need to fit the Skystar header tank. > > Also, I see that the Skystar instructions call for rubber wing tank feed lines all the way to the header tank. I was thinking that aluminum would be superior for reasons of weight and durability, am I correct about that? I would, of course, have to use rubber for the (approximate) first foot out of the wing tanks to allow the wings to fold. > > Capt Jeffrey R. Dill > (860) 295-8372 home > (860) 985-4315 cell > > ______ I ______ > (_) > O O > N767JD Model 2 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:21 AM PST US From: "Dill Family" Subject: Kitfox-List: re: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" 3/8 NPT (National Pipe Thread) .. I would go with the brass fittings you have they will be just fine. John, You have a flair for brevity, but I hang on every word. Tell me why I should go with brass; because I already have them? I am so conscious of weight and the brass fittings feel so heavy in my hand. Also, I don't see how any of the responses get me any closer to how to order the correct size. You cited 3/8, but which hole is that size? Is it as easy as putting a ruler across the diameter, not so, according to Lowell. Even if I go with brass, I have to order some more and need to identify the proper sizes. I think today I will go back up to the auto parts store and look more closely to the label on the drawers the fittings are contained in. Also, I will attempt to judge whether the auto parts guy really knows what size he is selling me. Meanwhile, this tank will not fit up to the existing tubes in my model 2, I will have to fabricate something to attach the adel clamps to on one, and maybe two, lobes. I do not have the "shielding tube" or "flange" for the gascolator drain. Are they made out of something readily available, like PVC? One thing I do have is an aluminum extention pipe that I figure I can use to move the drain valve to below the skin level. I will throw a few more thoughts out there for comment. I have not decided yet on the routing of the fuel line after leaving the header tank. I guess I would like to run it along the left sidewall, so I won't have to worry about passengers kicking it, then though my shutoff valve in the center, and then directly through the left side of the firewall. My old gascolator is getting removed, so I don't see the sense of routing it through the right side of the firewall as it is currently. I don't see the sense of having a line bigger than 5/16, which is what this aircraft has used for 220 hours, since the factory supplied shutoff valve has an inlet and outlet of that dimension, a bigger line wouldn't make any difference. Jeff Dill Model 2 N767JD ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:34 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Jeffery, Pipe fittings are referred to according to their nominal inside diameter. So those are 3/8" fittings. Metal tubing on the other hand refers to the outside diameter. I went with a tygon tubing. I find some comfort in being able to actually see the fuel or bubbles in the tubes. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Jeffery, If you bought 5/8 fittings and they fit, use those dimensions for the AN fittings - 10D as the part suffix. The actual fitting - the threaded part- is much larger than the fractional designation. I don't know how it works, but that is the way it does. It might have to do with the inner diameter of the tubing or pipe. I am sure some plumbing guru will make us all a little bit smarter on that part. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dill Family" Subject: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" > > > Let's see if I can ask this question without looking as stupid as I > feel. I am trying to purchase NPT and AN fittings to install a behind the > seat header tank in my model 2. One of the guys provided me with a used > tank without fittings and I am trying to order what I need. I went into > the local auto parts store and the guy matched a fitting with one of the > holes and called it a 3/8" fitting. I can see with my eyes that the hole > is bigger than a half inch, but didn't question him about it. (I bought > some fittings from him that fit, but they are brass and I would rather > switch to aluminum). Now, with ruler in hand, I am measuring that hole to > be 5/8", but I see the chart in the Aircraft Spruce book which sizes the > fittings by the "theoretical I.D. of fittings". I could conceive that > they are referring to the inner diameter of the line that the fitting > attaches, but there are pictures in the catalogue that, if to scale, > contradict that notion. If I have made any sense so f! > ar, could somebody give me a clue about how to identify the sizes I need > to fit the Skystar header tank. > > Also, I see that the Skystar instructions call for rubber wing tank > feed lines all the way to the header tank. I was thinking that aluminum > would be superior for reasons of weight and durability, am I correct about > that? I would, of course, have to use rubber for the (approximate) first > foot out of the wing tanks to allow the wings to fold. > > Capt Jeffrey R. Dill > (860) 295-8372 home > (860) 985-4315 cell > > ______ I ______ > (_) > O O > N767JD Model 2 > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:42 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Gary, I haven't noticed any leaking at where the fittings go into the heads. How do those fittings go in? Are they cast in? I have had problems with the screw type hose clamps. I tighten them in warm weather and they work great, but when it gets cold (teens F here) they all seem loose and some dribble a bit. I tighten them and then when warm weather returns the rubber in the hose expands and the clamps really cut into the hose. - The clamps seem too tight at that point. I don't see any of this type behavior with the spring clamps supplied by Rotax. Perhaps they can expand and contract to keep the right compression on the hose. But this is different than my most recent problem. I lost a quart of coolant in short order in what ever happened. Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxjunky Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky How cold does it get where you are? How long had the plane been sitting? I had my plane in storage last year in an unheated hanger. I noticed some coolant was leaking from the fitting that goes into the cyl head..on more than one cylinder. Not a lot..just a few drops on the floor. Someone knowledgeable with snowmobiles told me that is common. A few weeks back I went out and noticed the same thing. I ran the engine up and kept a close eye on it. Once it came up to temp it seemed fine. When I put it way there was no sign of a leak. Went back a few days later when it was very cold and again noticed some coolant in the same spot. Sounds like you had a lot more than a few drops showing..so probably not the same thing..but thought it was worth mentioning. Anyone else notice this type of thing with the 912 series of engines when they cold soak for awhile? Gary Walsh KF IV Anphib 912S C-GOOT www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox do not archive "Randy Daughenbaugh" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 01/02/2006 06:42 PM Please respond to kitfox-list To: cc: Subject: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped me pull the cowl off. By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were fine, but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking the coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 before it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. This still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container and it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to this happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it would have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to boil the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and blown air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in any of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this blooping of coolant. I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head temps on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 hours of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the radiator surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for more than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part of the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated the situation. Any advice would be appreciated. Lesson Learned I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and I was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was surprised to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in the oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what to expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container should be when the engine is hot. Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:49 AM PST US From: "Dill Family" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" Ok guys, I have my answer about the fitting sizes. For an NPT 3/8, the hole is definitely bigger than 3/8 (almost 5/8). Jeff Dill N767JD Model 2 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:54 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Kirk, I talked to a Rotax Rep about the same problem and they suggested BarsLeak. I tried it and it worked. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Martenson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson learned. > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kirk Martenson" > > I have a pan under my Kitfox. The water pump leaks a small puddle when it > gets cold. When I run up the engine and the seals heat up, no more leak. > After a day or two in cold weather, same thing. It has been like that > since > I got the plane running in 2000. > > Kirk Martenson > Classic IV Rotax 912 UL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kitfoxjunky" > To: > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a lesson > learned. > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfoxjunky >> >> >> How cold does it get where you are? How long had the plane been sitting? >> >> I had my plane in storage last year in an unheated hanger. I noticed some >> coolant was leaking from the fitting that goes into the cyl head..on more >> than one cylinder. Not a lot..just a few drops on the floor. Someone >> knowledgeable with snowmobiles told me that is common. A few weeks back >> I >> went out and noticed the same thing. I ran the engine up and kept a >> close >> eye on it. Once it came up to temp it seemed fine. When I put it way >> there was no sign of a leak. Went back a few days later when it was very >> cold and again noticed some coolant in the same spot. >> >> Sounds like you had a lot more than a few drops showing..so probably not >> the same thing..but thought it was worth mentioning. >> >> Anyone else notice this type of thing with the 912 series of engines when >> they cold soak for awhile? >> >> >> >> Gary Walsh >> KF IV Anphib 912S >> C-GOOT >> www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox >> >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> "Randy Daughenbaugh" >> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> 01/02/2006 06:42 PM >> Please respond to kitfox-list >> >> To: >> cc: >> Subject: Kitfox-List: 912S Gremlin, Advice needed and a >> lesson learned. >> >> >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" >> >> >> >> >> Returning home after a ride, we had just touched down and I noticed some >> splashes on the windshield. (This is not good!) Since the temperatures >> were all still good, I taxied on over to the hangar and my friend helped >> me >> pull the cowl off. >> >> By this time, we had identified the splashes as anti-freeze. I was >> expecting to see some hose connection leaking, but all fittings were >> fine, >> but the cowl above the overflow container was wet with Dexron. All the >> fittings were dry. As we watched, the engine cooled and started sucking >> the >> coolant back into the engine. I added between 32 and 39 oz. of 50/50 >> before >> it all quit sucking back into the engine. This took several hours. >> This >> still left the level in the overflow container near the minimum level. >> >> My friend says that I just had too much fluid in the overflow container >> and >> it flowed out as the engine warmed up. I don't buy this because; 1) I >> haven't added anti-freeze over the whole 87.2 hours of flying prior to >> this >> happening. 2) If this was just normal expansion, I would not have had to >> add any additional coolant as the engine cooled. 3) I don't think it >> would >> have put coolant all over the top cowl above the overflow container - >> Although the air flow in the cowl may splash it around a good bit. >> >> Anyway, I feel that somewhere (one head?) something was hot enough to >> boil >> the coolant and that is what blew stuff out the top of the overflow. My >> guess is that the flow to one head wasn't up to snuff and that caused the >> problem. I have taken the hoses off the bottom of all the heads and >> blown >> air down backwards through the head and can't detect any restriction in >> any >> of the heads. I would feel much better if I could find a reason for this >> blooping of coolant. >> >> I should mention that I have a Grand Rapids EIS that tracks the head >> temps >> on two heads - neither those nor the oil temp was too high. About 2.8 >> hours >> of flying time before this flight, I had covered about 1/3rd of the >> radiator >> surface to try to raise temps during winter flying. After doing this, I >> climbed to 10,000 ft to watch temps and they were fine as they were for >> more >> than 2 hours before this last flight. I don't think that covering part >> of >> the radiator was a major cause, but of course it could have aggravated >> the >> situation. >> >> Any advice would be appreciated. >> >> Lesson Learned >> I was really worried for some time because as the engine was cooling and >> I >> was adding 50/50 coolant, I decided to check the oil level. I was >> surprised >> to see it near the top of the tank and decided that I had found where all >> the coolant that I was adding was going. But later found NO coolant in >> the >> oil and the oil level was Normal! (My panic was unjustified!) >> >> Lesson? Check your levels when the engine is hot, so you will know what >> to >> expect. I wish that I knew what the level in the over flow container >> should >> be when the engine is hot. >> >> Thanks for listening and tell me what I may be missing. >> >> Randy - Series 5/7 - 912S >> >> . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:41 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Yes you are right, I didn't think of that as I was thinking of the bushing and barb fittings. If you are using aircraft tooling the 'Aircraft Spruce fittings would work. I think they are available in both aluminum and brass. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 07:01 PM 1/3/2006, you wrote: >>If you bought 5/8 fittings and they fit, use those dimensions for the AN >>fittings - 10D as the part suffix. > > Lowell, > Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some concern with getting > the right angles? I believe any brass compression fittings you'd get at > the > local auto parts or hardware store are 45 degree flares. And I believe > that > AN fittings are 37 degree flares. Aren't the two incompatible? And don't > you have to make sure you have the flare tool that matches the fitting? (I > realize this doesn't apply to pipe fittings.) > > PS I also did 1' of flex and the rest aluminum. I think it's a much neater > way to go, and was surprisingly easy to do. (I used 3/8" for both tank > feeds, and 1/4" for the vent.) My wings fold without having to fiddle with > the fuel lines. > > > Guy > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:58 AM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" I am turning my computer off for about 3 days......Remodeling the computer area. Thanks, Ron N55KF DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:17 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: re: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 05:34 AM 1/4/2006, you wrote: >I will throw a few more thoughts out there for comment. ... >I don't see the sense of having a line bigger than 5/16, which is what >this aircraft has used for 220 hours, since the factory supplied shutoff >valve has an inlet and outlet of that dimension, a bigger line wouldn't >make any difference. Hi Jeff, I don't really feel comfortable telling you all about my system since it's not flying yet and may not work! (Actually I'm quite sure it will because it's quite simple, but you know what I mean.) I can tell you why, though, you would use larger line than adjacent end fittings would seem to indicate. First, for long runs it cuts down the pressure drop, which is inversely proportional to the ID of the tube/pipe. Second, it makes it much easier for bubbles to propagate out of the system. I'll also offer some info on pipe sizes to help you in your search: (Pardon the format. Tables never come through text email right so I'll use comma delimited fields.) Nominal size (NOT the inside diameter), outside diameter 1/8", .405" 1/4", .54" 3/8", .675" 1/2", .84" 3/4", 1.05" diameter is determined by the wall thickness, which is a structural consideration. I used 3/8, .035" wall tubing for most of my fuel system. I used the 5052-0 straight runs from Aircraft Spruce because I wanted the runs to look neat and straight between bends. I used 1/4, .035" for my vent from the header to the right tank, though in retrospect it might have been better to go 3/8" in the vent to help the bubbles move. the outside diameter is determined by the construction. Again, watch the compression fitting angles. I used AN hardware so all angles are 37 degree. Even my brass barbed fittings at the end of my 1' hose into each wing tank are 37 degree, obtained from a web vendor. (I can dig it up if you'd like.) It's certainly no problem to use all brass 45 degree plumbing fittings. I can't imagine the weight is consequential. (I used AN fittings because I thought they looked so COOL! How's that for laughs!) Guy ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:21 PM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: Kitfox-List: Intake manifolds --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" It is obvious that the TBI unit on the Geo's will need to be relocated to fit in my cowl. I tell you, I'm about ready to just remove it and go naked. Anyway, is there any reason the TBI must be in a down-draft orientation like stock? I am assuming it has no bowl (a la carb). Also, I am seeing these neat, tidy "log" style intake manifolds, but they're mostly on MPFI engines. Would it be detrimental to use something of that sort with the TBI unit? Thanks, Bradley ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:13 PM PST US From: "jboatm16" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: NEW BERN N.C. NEW KITFOX IV PLAY SPEEDSTER --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jboatm16" Hey Mr Duke, found Dana Simmins email he sould know about the ga sport pilots dalsimmo@southernco.com hope this leads you there, good bunch of fellows! ----- Original Message ----- From: "W Duke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: NEW BERN N.C. NEW KITFOX IV PLAY SPEEDSTER > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke > > I am in Dublin, GA if that is close enough for you. > > Maxwell Duke S6/TD/IO240 > > jboatm16 wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jboatm16" > > Hello my name is Kem Dunnebacke iam living in new bern nc looking to get a > little air time as iam getting ready to test fly my new kitfox.I would be > glad to drive,pay fuel ,work, to get a little air time in the same type > plane befor test flights.i should be ready no later then early spring > perhaps befor if weather and all permits.my last build was a rv4 needed to > get married, a home all the life stuff,but now i live .2mls from EWN so > the > folding wing beats the rent!thanks have a good new yr. 252-638-5828 > c252-229-8200 > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:46 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> Deke, The screw was destroyed by the previous owner in a ground loop incident, in rebuilding I was pondering 2 thoughts, ONE, I fit the Model 4 I previously had with an elevator trim tab operated by a push pull cable to a lever I mounted just in front of my flap lever, it was fast and easy to adjust and I could trim for landing by feeling the position of the lever against the center bar, no need to look, it was also very easy and fast to trim for hands off flying, I liked it. TWO, some time after Skystar made the Model 5 they offered a retro kit to replace the screw with trim tabs, why would they offer the retro kit if the screws were so well liked? Since I would have to replace the screw to stay with that system I was thinking I may want to move to the trim tab option. (Which I know I like, it's fast to trim, and it's simple) I would hate to spend the money on a new screw and find I am not satisfied with the response or ergonomics of the system. That's my dilemma. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > Why do you want to remove the trim screw Lloyd? Although there may be > others, I can only recall one failure that caused any sort of problem. > Deke > >> All, >> I am reworking a Model 5 that originally had the Electric Elevator Trim >> Screw. I was intending on changing it to the trim tabs on the elevator >> and >> replacing the Electric ElevatorTrim Screw with the hard link similar to > the >> retro kit that Skyster was offering. I was recently challenged on that >> thought and was wondering what those of you out there flying either the >> adjustable horizontal stab, the elevator trim tabs or both feel about the >> subject? Which do you like and why? >> Thanks, >> Lloyd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:00 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> Maxwell, Screw was destroyed in a ground loop incident by previous owner. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "W Duke" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke > > I have only flown the electric on a Model 5 and 6. I like it fine. No > real problem in the pattern. It could use a little more up trim for use > with flaps. It is very sensitive at cruise speed but that could be > altered with Matt Dralle's Governor. If you decide to go with the manual > I would be interested in buying you linear actuator. > > Maxwell > > Cudnohufsky's <7suds@Chartermi.net> wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> > > All, > I am reworking a Model 5 that originally had the Electric Elevator Trim > Screw. I was intending on changing it to the trim tabs on the elevator and > replacing the Electric ElevatorTrim Screw with the hard link similar to > the > retro kit that Skyster was offering. I was recently challenged on that > thought and was wondering what those of you out there flying either the > adjustable horizontal stab, the elevator trim tabs or both feel about the > subject? Which do you like and why? > Thanks, > Lloyd > > > Maxwell Duke > S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing > > --------------------------------- > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, > whatever. > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:56 PM PST US From: "Rex & Jan Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Leakage --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" I had this same symptom. Mine came from turning the elbows in the flanges to align them for connection to the spyder tank. The solution was to remove the flanges, heat the fitting to loosen the locktite, apply new locktite. The thread sealing locktite will actually start to set up so quickly that you have to have the elbow angle set correctly when you stop tightening the fitting. There is no time to set it in place and then adjust. Jim Shumaker Hi ! Jim, I think you would achieve the same end result using a Loctite product called "Super Wick-in 290" This will allow you to assemble and align the parts without the loctite then apply the wick-in after. I know you might feel it is not likely to be as good but I'd challenge that. We have even using it to seal pourous castings with total success. Rex. rexjan@bigpond.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:37 PM PST US From: "wingsdown" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" FYI, I have a complete flight control system to include the jackscrew assembly and all parts forward and aft required to use it. Other Model 5 parts as well. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cudnohufsky's Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> Deke, The screw was destroyed by the previous owner ....snip ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:48 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" some time after Skystar made the Model 5 > they offered a retro kit to replace the screw with trim tabs, why would > they > offer the retro kit if the screws were so well liked? >>> I think they changed the system because the manufacturer of the jack screw didn't like them being used in Aircraft. I may be wrong in this, but in talking to the guys flying them, I think they generally like them fine. Lowell ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:09 PM PST US From: John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leakage --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King Jim & Rex, I found a very simple way to readjust the angle the elbows mounted on the intake manifolds without removing them. I have done this twice and never had any leaking of coolant. I removed the manifolds from the engine and placed them in a bench vice. I then heated the elbows with a torch (only the elbows, not the manifold). As soon as the elbows were hot or warm I placed a 3/8" dowel inside the open end of the elbow and rotated the elbow to the desired angle. The heat effectively softened the sealing material on the elbow threads enough to rotate the elbow. After cooling the sealing material locked the threads. I have never had any coolant leakage in 400 hours and the elbows are locked in place. -- John King Warrenton, VA Rex & Jan Shaw wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" > > > I had this same symptom. Mine came from turning the elbows in the flanges >to >align them for connection to the spyder tank. The solution was to remove >the >flanges, heat the fitting to loosen the locktite, apply new locktite. The >thread >sealing locktite will actually start to set up so quickly that you have to >have the elbow angle set correctly when you stop tightening the fitting. >There >is no time to set it in place and then adjust. > Jim Shumaker >Hi ! Jim, > I think you would achieve the same end result using a Loctite >product called "Super Wick-in 290" This will allow you to assemble and >align the parts without the loctite then apply the wick-in after. I know you >might feel it is not likely to be as good but I'd challenge that. We have >even using it to seal pourous castings with total success. > >Rex. > >rexjan@bigpond.com > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:20 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Leakage --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker I need some of that superwick stuff if it really works that good. Jim Shumaker Rex & Jan Shaw wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rex & Jan Shaw" I had this same symptom. Mine came from turning the elbows in the flanges to align them for connection to the spyder tank. The solution was to remove the flanges, heat the fitting to loosen the locktite, apply new locktite. The thread sealing locktite will actually start to set up so quickly that you have to have the elbow angle set correctly when you stop tightening the fitting. There is no time to set it in place and then adjust. Jim Shumaker Hi ! Jim, I think you would achieve the same end result using a Loctite product called "Super Wick-in 290" This will allow you to assemble and align the parts without the loctite then apply the wick-in after. I know you might feel it is not likely to be as good but I'd challenge that. We have even using it to seal pourous castings with total success. Rex. rexjan@bigpond.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:16 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: re: Header tank fittings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> Jeff, The routing of the gas line on my 5 runs from the header tank behind the passenger side seat straight across towards the pilot side until it reaches the center then turns towards the firewall running right up the center of the seat to the shutoff valve located on the center counsel, then out of the shutoff to the firewall. Looks to be a good routing direction. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dill Family" Subject: Kitfox-List: re: Header tank fittings > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" > > > 3/8 NPT (National Pipe Thread) .. I would go with the brass fittings you > have they will be just fine. > > > John, > You have a flair for brevity, but I hang on every word. Tell me why I > should go with brass; because I already have them? I am so conscious of > weight and the brass fittings feel so heavy in my hand. Also, I don't see > how any of the responses get me any closer to how to order the correct > size. You cited 3/8, but which hole is that size? Is it as easy as putting > a ruler across the diameter, not so, according to Lowell. Even if I go > with brass, I have to order some more and need to identify the proper > sizes. I think today I will go back up to the auto parts store and look > more closely to the label on the drawers the fittings are contained in. > Also, I will attempt to judge whether the auto parts guy really knows what > size he is selling me. > > Meanwhile, this tank will not fit up to the existing tubes in my model 2, > I will have to fabricate something to attach the adel clamps to on one, > and maybe two, lobes. I do not have the "shielding tube" or "flange" for > the gascolator drain. Are they made out of something readily available, > like PVC? One thing I do have is an aluminum extention pipe that I figure > I can use to move the drain valve to below the skin level. > > I will throw a few more thoughts out there for comment. I have not decided > yet on the routing of the fuel line after leaving the header tank. I guess > I would like to run it along the left sidewall, so I won't have to worry > about passengers kicking it, then though my shutoff valve in the center, > and then directly through the left side of the firewall. My old gascolator > is getting removed, so I don't see the sense of routing it through the > right side of the firewall as it is currently. I don't see the sense of > having a line bigger than 5/16, which is what this aircraft has used for > 220 hours, since the factory supplied shutoff valve has an inlet and > outlet of that dimension, a bigger line wouldn't make any difference. > > Jeff Dill > Model 2 > N767JD > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:59 PM PST US From: "wingsdown" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" I few many hours with the electric system. I think it was a cost driven move to the mechanical set up. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingsdown Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" FYI, I have a complete flight control system to include the jackscrew assembly and all parts forward and aft required to use it. Other Model 5 parts as well. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cudnohufsky's Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> Deke, The screw was destroyed by the previous owner ....snip ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:55 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 04:46 PM 1/4/2006, you wrote: > I fit the Model 4 I previously >had with an elevator trim tab operated by a push pull cable to a lever I >mounted just in front of my flap lever, it was fast and easy to adjust and I >could trim for landing by feeling the position of the lever against the >center bar, no need to look, it was also very easy and fast to trim for >hands off flying, I liked it. LLoyd, What did you use for the cable and tab? How did you do the tab end of things? I'm agonizing over the same thing on my IV with completed elevator. Thanks, Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.