Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:53 PM - FW: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems (Rueb, Duane)
2. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems (Rueb, Duane)
3. 02:02 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (Cudnohufsky's)
4. 02:20 PM - Kitfox "How to Fly a Kitfox" book (Cudnohufsky's)
5. 03:21 PM - Series 7 Manual (Jim Gilliatt)
6. 05:04 PM - Re: Series 7 Manual (Donna and Roger McConnell)
7. 05:45 PM - gear strength (kirk hull)
8. 06:27 PM - Re: Elevator Trim systems (jdmcbean)
9. 06:55 PM - First Flight (jdmcbean)
10. 07:12 PM - Re: gear strength (Michael Logan)
11. 09:41 PM - Re: First Flight (Don Pearsall)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
-----Original Message-----
From: Rueb, Duane
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems
I am flying a V with the supplied screw jack assembly, which had
become un-reliable. I fixed the motor, which needed to have it's
armature cleaned, which was a simple task for anyone with a drill
press,
and some 400 grit wet or dry abrasive paper, or some appropriate mill
files, and now it works fine.
The safety link on this one is on the top, not the bottom. It
would act as a back up for a failure of the top uniball fitting or rod,
but not the bottom.
Is it for sure that there have been failures of the housing on
what would be the bottom? I wouldn't characterize the material used
there as "pot metal", but as I recall from working with mine, and when
I
look at the picture on the manufacturer's site (Motion systems corp. of
New Jersey), the lower housing appears to be an alloy casting. Exactly
what alloy, or how constant stressed the whole assembly is, by design,
or as found,, I would have no way of knowing.
With this, then, did the builders of mine put the safety link on
the wrong end by putting it on top instead of the bottom? And was this
mod to my unit a standard way that Skystar did it?
It would indeed be at least in-convenient for the horizontal
stabilizer to become free to travel up and down within its design
travel
range at any time during flight, but especially when that flight is
conducted near the ground.
I have not yet attempted to contact Motion Systems to discuss
the supply of these units, nor of any parts thereto pertaining, and I
may never do so, but if the background story be totally revealed, it
could also be found that in addition to their concerns for the fact
that
their part was to fly, they may have cut Skystar off due to non payment
for product.
Certainly the concept of electric screw jack motion is not new
to aviation, as anyone who has flown on a modern air liner could
attest,
but it is also true that components selected for a particular job on
board do need to be qualified to do what is needed with the appropriate
safety factors.
As far as trim and the Kitfox V are concerned, with not a whole
lot of hours in it, but enough to have an opinion, I will make the
observation that the trim limits may not be quite extreme enough to
take
care of all needs, mostly in the approach configuration, and I find
operations without an indicator to be in-convenient, to the point of
being a little frustrating. Also that the change that is sometimes
needed quickly for a go around, or a touch and go is not quickly
accomplished with this system, but at cruise, it is very sensitive, and
requires very brief use of the switch.
occurred to me that the ideal system might be to have both a screw jack
and a tab operating with their separate control systems, one electric,
and the other mechanical, this should allow all of the trim range
anyone
would need, and even allow for the use of the screw jack part only for
or mostly for the fine tuning of the system, and the tab would be used
then for flight operations that require quick use.
This idea came naturally to me, while watching a model seven
being built, with a tab and with the stabilizer being hard linked,
although it is capable of movement.
Duane Rueb N24ZM
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Mdkitfox@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:56 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim
systems
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mdkitfox@aol.com
>
> I had the original jackscrew system on my V and decided to replace it
> with
> the retrofit kit for the manual trim system. I heard the screw system
> had
> more than one failure, but only 1 resulted in an incident. The bottom
> line is
> the actuator lower bracket metal looks to be ordinary 'pot metal' and
> not very
> strong. The bracket is where the problem lies. Some guys have made
a
> support to retain the actuator in case the bracket fails. I suppose
> this will
> work, but frankly, that bracket is a single point failure that could
> lead to a
> severe control problem should it fail in flight, i.e. the horizontal
> stabilizer will free float and cause pitch problems. Also the cost of
> a replacement
> actuator is over $400.00. Overall I thought the retrofit system was
a
> big
> improvement.
>
> Rick Weiss
> Series V Speedster N39RW, 912S
>
>
>
>
>-------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
-----Original Message-----
From: Rueb, Duane
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim systems
I am flying a V with the supplied screw jack assembly, which had
become un-reliable. I fixed the motor, which needed to have it's
armature cleaned, which was a simple task for anyone with a drill
press,
and some 400 grit wet or dry abrasive paper, or some appropriate mill
files, and now it works fine.
The safety link on this one is on the top, not the bottom. It
would act as a back up for a failure of the top uniball fitting or rod,
but not the bottom.
Is it for sure that there have been failures of the housing on
what would be the bottom? I wouldn't characterize the material used
there as "pot metal", but as I recall from working with mine, and when
I
look at the picture on the manufacturer's site (Motion systems corp. of
New Jersey), the lower housing appears to be an alloy casting. Exactly
what alloy, or how constant stressed the whole assembly is, by design,
or as found,, I would have no way of knowing.
With this, then, did the builders of mine put the safety link on
the wrong end by putting it on top instead of the bottom? And was this
mod to my unit a standard way that Skystar did it?
It would indeed be at least in-convenient for the horizontal
stabilizer to become free to travel up and down within its design
travel
range at any time during flight, but especially when that flight is
conducted near the ground.
I have not yet attempted to contact Motion Systems to discuss
the supply of these units, nor of any parts thereto pertaining, and I
may never do so, but if the background story be totally revealed, it
could also be found that in addition to their concerns for the fact
that
their part was to fly, they may have cut Skystar off due to non payment
for product.
Certainly the concept of electric screw jack motion is not new
to aviation, as anyone who has flown on a modern air liner could
attest,
but it is also true that components selected for a particular job on
board do need to be qualified to do what is needed with the appropriate
safety factors.
As far as trim and the Kitfox V are concerned, with not a whole
lot of hours in it, but enough to have an opinion, I will make the
observation that the trim limits may not be quite extreme enough to
take
care of all needs, mostly in the approach configuration, and I find
operations without an indicator to be in-convenient, to the point of
being a little frustrating. Also that the change that is sometimes
needed quickly for a go around, or a touch and go is not quickly
accomplished with this system, but at cruise, it is very sensitive, and
requires very brief use of the switch.
occurred to me that the ideal system might be to have both a screw jack
and a tab operating with their separate control systems, one electric,
and the other mechanical, this should allow all of the trim range
anyone
would need, and even allow for the use of the screw jack part only for
or mostly for the fine tuning of the system, and the tab would be used
then for flight operations that require quick use.
This idea came naturally to me, while watching a model seven
being built, with a tab and with the stabilizer being hard linked,
although it is capable of movement.
Duane Rueb N24ZM
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Mdkitfox@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:56 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Elevator Trim systems Elevator Trim
systems
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mdkitfox@aol.com
>
> I had the original jackscrew system on my V and decided to replace it
> with
> the retrofit kit for the manual trim system. I heard the screw system
> had
> more than one failure, but only 1 resulted in an incident. The bottom
> line is
> the actuator lower bracket metal looks to be ordinary 'pot metal' and
> not very
> strong. The bracket is where the problem lies. Some guys have made
a
> support to retain the actuator in case the bracket fails. I suppose
> this will
> work, but frankly, that bracket is a single point failure that could
> lead to a
> severe control problem should it fail in flight, i.e. the horizontal
> stabilizer will free float and cause pitch problems. Also the cost of
> a replacement
> actuator is over $400.00. Overall I thought the retrofit system was
a
> big
> improvement.
>
> Rick Weiss
> Series V Speedster N39RW, 912S
>
>
>
>
>-------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim systems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net>
Guy,
The trim tab size was correct for my 4, however it was an XL Model with a
gross of 950 and a VNE of 104mph. I was running a 503 that would cruise
around 70 and it worked great. I know Al has now installed a 582 and as far
as I know he is still using the same trim system. The friction system on the
handle worked great as well, I never had it slip on me. Another thought is
what the RV guys are running, they are using a push pull very similar to a
throttle, has a push button on the end to lock / unlock and make large
adjustments and can also twist from the lock position for micro adjust. Have
never talked to anyone about how well they like it. I ran the cable out from
the fuselage just under the horizontal stabilizer at about 1/2 the chord.
The trim tab was close to the rudder side of the elevator and the stand-off
was off set to line up with the structural tube in the elevator. Cable
stayed close to the bottom of the horizontal stab and did have a bit of an
"S" shape to it. I also put O-Rings on the cable to keep it from chaffing
the fabric / finish.
Lloyd
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 06:08 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote:
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net>
>>
>>Guy,
>>The trim on my 4 was an after thought so I made a trim tab from light
>>gauge
>>aluminum, about 14 ga. it was about 3.5" x 20"
>
> What did you think of the size. Was it about right? Too large? Too small?
>
>>stock and made a friction system similar to the flap handle friction
>>system
>
> How did the friction system work? I bought a small throttle quadrant that
> uses friction but I was worried it wouldn't hold.
> ...
>
>>The cable
>>was run through the fuselage and exited below the horizontal stab at the
>>rear. 2 stand-off horns were fabbed from aluminum, one was riveted to the
>>trim tab and the other to the cross bar in the elevator.
>
> Did you run the cable out the angled member of the elevator? Or did the
> cable make some kind of an "S" to meet the tab perpendicular to it?
>
> Thanks for the help. By the way, I got your sketch off-line and it
> clarified how you handled the back end. Thanks again.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kitfox "How to Fly a Kitfox" book |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net>
All,
I know at one time someone on the list was looking for the "How to fly a
Kitfox" book, there is one listed on E-Bay for sale. Has 2 bids, I am not
bidding on it. Link below.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4602725430&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
Message 5
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net>
Hi Everyone,
It seems that I either never got, or have misplaced pages 85 thru 94 of
the Series 7 fuselage manual dated June of '03. Can someone make a copy
or tell me how I might down load these pages if they are available. I
would gladly pay for the postage etc.
Thanks in advance,
Jim Gilliatt
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Donna and Roger McConnell" <rdmac@swbell.net>
Jim,
I have the entire Fuselage Manual in a pdf file. I can e-mail it to
you if you'd like. It's rather large 4900 kb.
Roger Mac
619RM ready to fly
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Gilliatt
Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 7 Manual
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Gilliatt <jim.gilliatt@att.net>
Hi Everyone,
It seems that I either never got, or have misplaced pages 85 thru 94 of
the Series 7 fuselage manual dated June of '03. Can someone make a copy
or tell me how I might down load these pages if they are available. I
would gladly pay for the postage etc.
Thanks in advance,
Jim Gilliatt
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@sbcglobal.net>
I am starting taxi test on my Classic VI and have heard stories about the
gear being week.
my VI has a Subaru engine and is a little heavy ( about 760 ) does anyone
else routinely operate around or over gross and do you have any problems?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Elevator Trim systems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Lloyd,
As with anything I'm sure opinions will vary.. and both trims have pros
and
cons...... I'll stick with the screw jack over the offered manual trim. If
someone wants the manual trim that SS was offering I know of one available..
Cannot guarantee all the parts were delivered.
Regarding the screw jack.. If memory serves me there were 3 different
actuators..
To the best of my knowledge, and I have looked in to this... there was one
failure. I do not recall which model actuator but I believe it was an
earlier model.
Skystar changed to the manual trim for 2 reasons:
1 The manual system was a commonly asked for item - Could it be an option ?
2 Motion Systems stopped selling them to Skystar.. supposedly because they
were going on aircraft.
I have looked into replacements and can most likely get them.. However, I
was very cautious not to let them know they were going on aircraft.....
Have a Safe New Year !!
John McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Cudnohufsky's
Subject: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net>
All,
I am reworking a Model 5 that originally had the Electric Elevator Trim
Screw. I was intending on changing it to the trim tabs on the elevator and
replacing the Electric ElevatorTrim Screw with the hard link similar to the
retro kit that Skyster was offering. I was recently challenged on that
thought and was wondering what those of you out there flying either the
adjustable horizontal stab, the elevator trim tabs or both feel about the
subject? Which do you like and why?
Thanks,
Lloyd
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
After a quick trip West to Bend, OR for some dual and a first flight prep
A new Kitfox Series 7 had its maiden voyage yesterday 01/05/2006 at 1:30 pm.
The owner reported an uneventful flight and wonderful feeling of elation.
The day was cool, crisp and not a breath of air as N815BH lifted into the
Oregon skies.
Kitfox Series 7
Rotax 912S with an ifa IVO prop
Have a Safe New Year !!
John McBean
www.sportplanellc.com <http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michael Logan" <michael.logan@cox.net>
Only 760 pounds with the Subaru engine!!! That is really controlling the
weight. My five is way over that.
Mike Logan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Subject: Kitfox-List: gear strength
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@sbcglobal.net>
I am starting taxi test on my Classic VI and have heard stories about the
gear being week.
my VI has a Subaru engine and is a little heavy ( about 760 ) does anyone
else routinely operate around or over gross and do you have any problems?
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Hi John, who was the Seven's owner? Is he on the list? Congratulations to
him, and to you for helping get the plane in the air!
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Subject: Kitfox-List: First Flight
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
After a quick trip West to Bend, OR for some dual and a first flight prep
A new Kitfox Series 7 had its maiden voyage yesterday 01/05/2006 at 1:30 pm.
The owner reported an uneventful flight and wonderful feeling of elation.
The day was cool, crisp and not a breath of air as N815BH lifted into the
Oregon skies.
Kitfox Series 7
Rotax 912S with an ifa IVO prop
Have a Safe New Year !!
John McBean
www.sportplanellc.com <http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
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