---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/06/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:34 AM - which weld (Mark.Summers@lwbref.com) 2. 08:46 AM - Re: which weld (ron schick) 3. 08:48 AM - kit fox 2 -582 true horse power (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 4. 12:03 PM - Re: which weld (Mark.Summers@lwbref.com) 5. 01:56 PM - Re: which weld (Colin Durey) 6. 02:05 PM - Satellite snap shot of your runway (jareds) 7. 03:27 PM - Re: which weld (ron schick) 8. 03:27 PM - Re: which weld (daniel johnson) 9. 04:19 PM - Re: which weld (D& D Syverson) 10. 04:38 PM - Re: which weld (joakley@ida.net) 11. 06:02 PM - Re: which weld (Mark.Summers@lwbref.com) 12. 06:45 PM - Re: Two Questions (Guy Buchanan) 13. 06:45 PM - Re: Two Questions (Guy Buchanan) 14. 07:23 PM - Re: Tow Bar (mscotter) 15. 08:38 PM - Re: which weld (Andy Fultz) 16. 09:28 PM - Re: which weld (ron schick) 17. 10:11 PM - Re: which weld (kurt schrader) 18. 10:29 PM - Re: which weld (Graeme Toft) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:05 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: which weld From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com I am ready to weld a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with ers80-d2 wire but now a few second thoughts. I am now concerned about brittleness from the concentrated heating. Anyone have any opinions/experiences with welding this 4130 thin tube? I am leaning more toward gas acetylene and not sure which filler to use. I welcome all input Thanks Mark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:16 AM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" Oxy- acetaline helps avoid brittlenes, and your local welding shop should have the right filler rod for 4130. So I've heard. I welded my motor mount mig and will relieve it with a torch. Ron NB Ore >From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com >To: Kitfox-List@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: which weld >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 07:29:24 -0600 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > >I am ready to weld a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and >smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with >ers80-d2 wire but now a few second thoughts. I am now concerned about >brittleness from the concentrated heating. Anyone have any >opinions/experiences with welding this 4130 thin tube? I am leaning more >toward gas acetylene and not sure which filler to use. I welcome all input >Thanks Mark > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:29 AM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: kit fox 2 -582 true horse power --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com I have a 2 finished in 99 w a coweling that fites tite to the fusloge the mufler fites inside all but the tailpipe it lookes like it was cut to fit what is the true HP mal ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that is a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and thanks for your feedback. Mark ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld From: "Colin Durey" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" Mark, I have recently been investigating welding techniques, more out of interest than need, especially with regard to welding airframes. (Possible future project). I came across a gas welding kit which uses oxy-acetylene, but does so in a unique way, so as to minimise stress and brittleness, etc. The kit is called the DHC 2000. I don't know who the original manufacturer is, but suppose that it is actually a US based company. The address that I have for the distributor in Australia is: www.amweld.com.au. There are a number of explanatory video clips available at that site. The only US address I have is: www.fournierenterprises.com . Have a look at this as it may be of some help to you in deciding what method to use. Regards Colin Durey Sydney > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > > > Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the > longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that > is > a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job > done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do > as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with > fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and > thanks for your feedback. Mark > > Regards Colin Durey Pacific Technology Corporation Ltd +61-418-677073 (M) +61-2-945466162 (F) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:26 PM PST US From: jareds Subject: Kitfox-List: Satellite snap shot of your runway Cc: kitfox-list@matronics.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jareds > My company partners with Google as part of a solution to store and > instantly retrieve scans and docs. > Recently we stumbled onto an application offered by Google called > Google world. You can zoom in on satellite views of your house and > even rotate them to extrude your landscape. I even took out the > measuring tool and measured the exact length of my runway. I'ts great > to post on your website or email to friends coming in for a visit to > help them orient themselves with real world snapshot of your runway > and surroundings. > > I'ts a free download but in the free version there is only a small > percentage of really detailed photos from both satellite and aircraft. > Fortunately my old home outside of DC (in the ADIZ) and my Ranch home > in South Dakota are both in detailed areas. Ironically enough the > satellite photo taken of my DC home still had the nearly finished > shell of my KitFox in the backyard almost ready for flight. > > If you would like me to send you an email of the sample file that i > dumped into photoshop let me know. It will give you and idea of the > quality and capability before you go through the download. If you > download yourself take note of the longitdue and latt feature for > easily finding your destination airports too!! > Very Very cool. > My clearances in DC made me privy to some of this technology but I > think the $400 commercial or even maybe the $20 std version may offer > more detailed areas. If any of you are interested in going in > together I'm sure others in less detailed areas would love to help > defray the cost. > > Jared Schott > VP Marketing / Sales 301 643 6054 > www.prinux.us > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:31 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" Mark there are many schools of thought. Most agree that a torch is the easiest to get good results. Tig is the next choice, but a good mig will suffice. I don't have a tig hooked up and use propagne / oxy or plasma for cutting. Ron NB Ore >From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 13:58:26 -0600 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > > >Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the >longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that is >a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the job >done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could do >as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with >fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and >thanks for your feedback. Mark > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:42 PM PST US From: "daniel johnson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "daniel johnson" Hello. I wanted to put a quick note on here about welding. There is a really nice book out at Barnes and Noble and others titled "Monster Garage- how to weld damn near anything" It talks about performance welding in aircraft adn racecars and dispels many old myths that are handed down without basis in fact. It covers MIG TIG and Oxy-acetlyn welding..and gives the benefits and drawbacks to each. It also gives a really nice overview of troubleshooting where most get into trouble and how to prepare the welding rig and the metal. Its not a comlete guide to welding, but a good first read. Dan Kitfox went home to Idaho...working on a Stearman. >From: "Colin Durey" >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld >Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:52:56 +1100 (EST) > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" > >Mark, > >I have recently been investigating welding techniques, more out of >interest than need, especially with regard to welding airframes. (Possible >future project). > >I came across a gas welding kit which uses oxy-acetylene, but does so in a >unique way, so as to minimise stress and brittleness, etc. The kit is >called the DHC 2000. I don't know who the original manufacturer is, but >suppose that it is actually a US based company. The address that I have >for the distributor in Australia is: www.amweld.com.au. There are a number >of explanatory video clips available at that site. The only US address I >have is: www.fournierenterprises.com . Have a look at this as it may be of >some help to you in deciding what method to use. > >Regards > >Colin Durey >Sydney > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > > > > > > Am I right to suppose you would not be too opposed to using mig on the > > longeron tubes if you welded your motor mounts mig? I have a friend that > > is > > a very good mig welder and that is the easiest road for me to get the >job > > done, but the brittleness thing has me concerned. Some say that I could >do > > as you said and normalize the weld with a torch and wrap the tubes with > > fireblanket to slow the cooling afterward. Does this sound right, and > > thanks for your feedback. Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regards > >Colin Durey >Pacific Technology Corporation Ltd >+61-418-677073 (M) >+61-2-945466162 (F) > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:47 PM PST US From: D& D Syverson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: D& D Syverson Mark, There are a lot of books about the subject of welding and lots of opinions as to the preferred method. If a person has MIG equipment available and someone with the skill to use it, it works great. Ditto for Oxy. I happen to be a bit low tech on this since I use an oxycetylene torch for just about everything. The big deal with oxycetylene welding is that you can do just about anything you need to with a few changes of tips for your welder - it is a very adaptable. I won't try to give welding lessons over the e-mail, but I will offer a few bits of advice. 1) MIG or Oxy - in both cases you need to be real sure that the weld has adequate penetration and no slag incorporated in the weld - I would use whatever system you have available - they are both good and the most important issues is the ability of the welder. 2) If Oxy - a) you will have a little more heat involved - do some practice on scrap pieces of the same thickness and experiment with tip size/gas pressure to avoid burn throughs when doing it for real. b) Use 4130 rods - I use 1/16" for aircraft tubing - they run about $5-$8 per pound. c) After welding the parts up - normalize the weld area and do what you can to slow the cool rate. On my model 7, I had to do some repair work due to manufacturing defects in the fuselage weldment; and, did a reverse engineering thing on the front trim bracket since one was not supplied with my kit at the time of the bankruptcy. Also - once everything is done, go ahead and try to break it with a reasonable force - if it doesn't hold - you want to know that before you are in the air. I am always amazed at how strong 4130 weldments are. Both projects survived the torture. Sincerely, Dave St Paul Do Not Archive On Monday 06 February 2006 7:29 am, Mark.Summers@lwbref.com wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > > I am ready to weld a new tail on my KF 2, splice all 4 longerons and > smaller cross braces together. I was intending to get it mig welded with > ers80-d2 wire but now a few secon ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld From: joakley@ida.net --> Kitfox-List message posted by: joakley@ida.net I know we want the best welds, but... the factory used mig on all of our planes, I havn't seen a problem with that in 20 years now... humm... 22 years. john Oakley over a thousand hours in fox's now.. and not nearly enough. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com I sure appreciate everyone's comments and opinions, I believe I will let my friend give the mig a try on some extra .035 1/2" tube pieces to get a feel and if he says go , we go. I have heard or read that 100% argon sheilding gas is recommended over the argon co2 mix. I hate to keep asking questions butttt. Thanks again Mark ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:01 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Two Questions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 07:59 PM 2/1/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" > >Just make a cardboard box big enough to cover the panel between coats. Thanks Rick, but I got most of my foreign objects during spraying. I did it in the garage with the floor wet and all, but did not even try to fabricate a spray booth. I guess I could to the plastic sheet over PVC thing. I'll see how much a local shop wants to do the paint, first. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:02 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Two Questions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 01:16 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote: >This is the stuff we know as "metl-prep" for autobody and >a similar product is provided through poly fiber for etching metal. Thanks Dave, I've got Metl-prep, and I think I can rent a portable sandblaster locally. That might be the best way to do it. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:48 PM PST US From: "mscotter" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Tow Bar --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mscotter" Hey guys, with so much interest maybe some pics should be posted in the dropbox. Just an idea. Mark Scott Elkton, MD -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Burke Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tow Bar --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke Good point John, I think the pictures I sent the guys will help, But they may want to take there own measurements. Jim,N94JE ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tow Bar > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net > > be alert to the fact that the width of the IV's vary some at the tow bar > carry through points. There are the IV-1050's, the IV-1200, and the IV > Classic. It might be necessary to make some modifications in order to > obtain the desired fit. > > John Kerr > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Jim Burke > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Burke >> >> Graeme, I will send you pictures with measurements that should help. I >> also >> think you should have the drawing Don has. I think I have seen it and it >> was >> a good reference. >> >> Jim N94JE ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:41 PM PST US From: "Andy Fultz" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andy Fultz" Colin, Mark and the rest of the gang, If you do any amount of gas/oxy welding and you purchase and DHC 2000 (formerly Henrob 2000, formerly Dillon)you will not be sorry. I found one in the fly market at OSH used and snatched it up. One af the best purchases I have ever made. Andy F. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:30 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" Anything is better than co2, but even that will work. I use Argon and steel mix mainly for stainless. Go for it and test your welds. Ron NB Or >From: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:59:25 -0600 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com > > >I sure appreciate everyone's comments and opinions, I believe I will let my >friend give the mig a try on some extra .035 1/2" tube pieces to get a >feel and if he says go , we go. I have heard or read that 100% argon >sheilding gas is recommended over the argon co2 mix. I hate to keep asking >questions butttt. Thanks again Mark > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:26 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Just a side not of interest. When my friend was welding up his 2/3rds scale Jenny, he changed from gas to electric welding for some parts near the end. Building his plane was a chance for him to learn more and practice his welding, but he got caught by a routine. When he tried to do his first electric parts, he couldn't get the arc to stay put on the weld. He closed the window and turned off the fan. Fussed with current and tips. Then it hit him. He was using a magnetic parts tray to hold the parts. OK for gas, but a pain with electric. :-) Sometimes it is the little things..... Kurt S. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:26 PM PST US From: "Graeme Toft" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: which weld --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" Talking of magnetics also Kurt electric welding will, as many of us have found, introduce a magnetic field into the airframe that can be hard to get rid of. Some may remember the problem I had with my model 1 when I attempted to install a compass and got a 15degree swing. I had to degause the airframe before the compass could be acurrately swung. Just my 2 bobs worth. Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: which weld > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Just a side not of interest. When my friend was > welding up his 2/3rds scale Jenny, he changed from gas > to electric welding for some parts near the end. > > Building his plane was a chance for him to learn more > and practice his welding, but he got caught by a > routine. When he tried to do his first electric > parts, he couldn't get the arc to stay put on the > weld. He closed the window and turned off the fan. > Fussed with current and tips. > > Then it hit him. He was using a magnetic parts tray > to hold the parts. OK for gas, but a pain with > electric. :-) Sometimes it is the little things..... > > Kurt S. > > > -- > 30/01/2006 > >