Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:00 AM - Re: Radiator ideas (Bradley M Webb)
2. 04:29 AM - Re: Radiator ideas (Rex)
3. 04:43 AM - Re: Radiator ideas (Rex)
4. 06:23 AM - Re: Radiator ideas (Guy Buchanan)
5. 06:34 AM - Re: Skystar (Michael Gibbs)
6. 06:50 AM - Radiator Ideas (scoop) (Fox5flyer)
7. 07:32 AM - Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) (wingnut)
8. 07:40 AM - Source for custom (smooth) cowl for Mod IV? (wingnut)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) (Fox5flyer)
10. 09:32 AM - Re: Radiator ideas (Bradley M Webb)
11. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Skystar (Lynn Matteson)
12. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) (Lynn Matteson)
13. 11:04 AM - Re: Source for custom (smooth) cowl for Mod IV? (michael burkhardt)
14. 11:04 AM - Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) (wingnut)
15. 12:52 PM - Re: cutting prop bolt threads (Rich Williamson)
16. 12:56 PM - Re: Re: Torque ?s (Rich Williamson)
17. 05:02 PM - KF2 weight balance is AOK (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
18. 05:08 PM - Ribs,Tail Feathers (Howie's Mail)
19. 06:42 PM - Re: KF2 weight balance is AOK (Sid Hausding)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
The heat carrying ability of the water is a constant, I believe. Total
cooling ability maybe based on exposed area? I own a Suzuki Bandit, which
uses the old GSX-R motor, which is oil-cooled (no water). I had read that it
works fine, until you start increasing the power output with mods, where the
oil lacks the ability to cool it properly. Apparently, water systems don't
have this problem.
I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
with Bernoulli. You don't push the air through a radiator, you suck it
through. You'd ideally want a small frontal air intake, then expand that air
to slow it down, thereby increasing its pressure at the radiator surface.
Then re-squish it to lower the pressure and accelerate the air into the air
stream aft of the system. I did this on my 2, and it does work. My radiator
is mounted horizontal at the bottom of the firewall, behind the muffler can.
I built a reverse scoop with moveable flap that exits at the bottom aft
cowl. It removes the drag of being under the fuse, and shortens the coolant
lines.
I've noticed that some bikes, like the 996 Superhawk and the RC51 have
radiators mounted sideways. I guess they duct the air 90 degrees and then
out the side of the cowl. I've wondered if this would work on our K'fox
cowl. Seems it would solve some installation problems on some engines. I'd
like to get some dirt bike radiators and try that. Mount them with the face
of the radiator parallel to the airstream against the side of the cowl, and
use some pre-made auto hood scoops to redirect the air aft. Then you could
use ducts (aluminum dryer duct?) and take high-pressure air from the lower
front of the cowl and go right to the face of the radiator.
Someone else pointed out a gorgeous curved m/c radiator on ebay a while
back. Sure would just like to play with it, but I thought it too big to be
used. Sure is pretty, tho'.
I would like to take a walk around an F1 race car someday, and see how they
solve cooling issues. They have mucho power, with very little frontal area.
Might be a neat idea hiding there.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator ideas
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex <gypsybee@copper.net>
I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
aircraft homebuilders.
[ "Unlike a standard-type motorcycle where the radiator is just like a
big old block that sits at right-angles to the airflow, if you slant the
radiator you effectively increase the surface area relative to the
projected area to the airflow." Tuluie said that, depending on the
details of the radiator, it doesn't become much more efficient above 40
mph. "The efficiency tapers off, so you don't really need 200-mph air
for your radiator. The reason is because there are other paths in the
system that just cannot reject heat fast enough. That can be the engine
itself-the surface area is limited within the cylinder. There is a
certain heat-transfer rate through the cylinder wall, there's a
heat-transfer rate in the radiator through the radiator fins and
core-and no matter how fast the air goes, the heat-transfer rate is the
limiting factor. Once you have a certain speed of air going through the
radiator, that is sufficient, and any more will not buy you more cooling.
"If you take a small amount of intake air area, say a square-foot, and
then you route it to a radiator which has a cooling area of two square
feet, then you've doubled the surface area there, and you've reduced the
velocity by a factor of two of the air going to the radiator compared to
the air that was coming in. It's like a stream, for example. A stream
always flows the same amount of water, but when it's wide, the water
flows slow; where it's narrow, the water flows fast-it's the same
principle. So we've taken air from above the front wheel going whatever
the speed of the bike, but when the air goes through the radiator it has
slowed down, say by a factor of two. ]
Complete article here:
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/issues/apr00/tularis.htm
--
Rex Hefferan
N740GP
Colorado
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator ideas |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex <gypsybee@copper.net>
Thanks Guy,
However, I'm confused about your offer to translate, when I view the
link page it is in English. :-)
(note to all: The article is not dated, but I estimate it was published
around 6 years ago.)
Rex
Colorado
Do not archive
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 05:08 PM 2/23/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>>I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
>>of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
>>as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
>>aircraft homebuilders.
>>
>>
>
>Not to disparage the information, this is very old news written in press
>release format. Let me know if anyone wants it translated into English.
>(Meaning, it may be obvious to everybody but I wanted to write, just in
>case it wasn't.)
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator ideas |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex <gypsybee@copper.net>
Bradley,
Do you have photos to share of your radiator installation? I also have
a model 2 .
The thing I had not understood before was that radiators can only
transfer heat at a certain rate regardless of the excess air flow. Thus
turning radiators at right angles to the airflow will work fine as long
as the airflow is ducted to provide a good enough air movement.
Rex
Colorado
Bradley M Webb wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>
>The heat carrying ability of the water is a constant, I believe. Total
>cooling ability maybe based on exposed area? I own a Suzuki Bandit, which
>uses the old GSX-R motor, which is oil-cooled (no water). I had read that it
>works fine, until you start increasing the power output with mods, where the
>oil lacks the ability to cool it properly. Apparently, water systems don't
>have this problem.
>
>I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
>with Bernoulli. You don't push the air through a radiator, you suck it
>through. You'd ideally want a small frontal air intake, then expand that air
>to slow it down, thereby increasing its pressure at the radiator surface.
>Then re-squish it to lower the pressure and accelerate the air into the air
>stream aft of the system. I did this on my 2, and it does work. My radiator
>is mounted horizontal at the bottom of the firewall, behind the muffler can.
>I built a reverse scoop with moveable flap that exits at the bottom aft
>cowl. It removes the drag of being under the fuse, and shortens the coolant
>lines.
>
>I've noticed that some bikes, like the 996 Superhawk and the RC51 have
>radiators mounted sideways. I guess they duct the air 90 degrees and then
>out the side of the cowl. I've wondered if this would work on our K'fox
>cowl. Seems it would solve some installation problems on some engines. I'd
>like to get some dirt bike radiators and try that. Mount them with the face
>of the radiator parallel to the airstream against the side of the cowl, and
>use some pre-made auto hood scoops to redirect the air aft. Then you could
>use ducts (aluminum dryer duct?) and take high-pressure air from the lower
>front of the cowl and go right to the face of the radiator.
>
>Someone else pointed out a gorgeous curved m/c radiator on ebay a while
>back. Sure would just like to play with it, but I thought it too big to be
>used. Sure is pretty, tho'.
>
>I would like to take a walk around an F1 race car someday, and see how they
>solve cooling issues. They have mucho power, with very little frontal area.
>Might be a neat idea hiding there.
>
>Bradley
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex
>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:08 PM
>To: Kitfox
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Radiator ideas
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex <gypsybee@copper.net>
>
>I thought part of this article about a unique racing motorcycle might be
>of interest. It describes some aspects of radiator design and function
>as understood in the formula racing world that might be of use to
>aircraft homebuilders.
>
>[ "Unlike a standard-type motorcycle where the radiator is just like a
>big old block that sits at right-angles to the airflow, if you slant the
>radiator you effectively increase the surface area relative to the
>projected area to the airflow." Tuluie said that, depending on the
>details of the radiator, it doesn't become much more efficient above 40
>mph. "The efficiency tapers off, so you don't really need 200-mph air
>for your radiator. The reason is because there are other paths in the
>system that just cannot reject heat fast enough. That can be the engine
>itself-the surface area is limited within the cylinder. There is a
>certain heat-transfer rate through the cylinder wall, there's a
>heat-transfer rate in the radiator through the radiator fins and
>core-and no matter how fast the air goes, the heat-transfer rate is the
>limiting factor. Once you have a certain speed of air going through the
>radiator, that is sufficient, and any more will not buy you more cooling.
>
>"If you take a small amount of intake air area, say a square-foot, and
>then you route it to a radiator which has a cooling area of two square
>feet, then you've doubled the surface area there, and you've reduced the
>velocity by a factor of two of the air going to the radiator compared to
>the air that was coming in. It's like a stream, for example. A stream
>always flows the same amount of water, but when it's wide, the water
>flows slow; where it's narrow, the water flows fast-it's the same
>principle. So we've taken air from above the front wheel going whatever
>the speed of the bike, but when the air goes through the radiator it has
>slowed down, say by a factor of two. ]
>
>Complete article here:
>http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/issues/apr00/tularis.htm
>
>
>
--
Karla and Rex Hefferan
Gypsy Bee Innkeepers
719-651-5198 or 719-651-9192
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 03:53 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
>I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
>with Bernoulli.
Bradley's got it right; and I'd love to see his installation. I have the
radiator below the fuselage with the Skystar "scoop" which is just a big
flat plate as far as drag is concerned. A real radiator scoop actually
provides thrust, as in the P-51, because the heat added increases the
velocity of the exhaust beyond that of the incoming air. I hadn't thought
there was room in the cowl for this type of installation. I'll have to take
another look.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 5
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>Can some one give us an update on the latest news on Kitfox - Skystar??
It seems that the only thing that takes longer than building your own
airplane is waiting for a bankruptcy court to finish its business...
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 6
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| Subject: | Radiator Ideas (scoop) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
"Bradley M Webb" wrote:
<I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
with Bernoulli. You don't push the air through a radiator, you suck it
through. You'd ideally want a small frontal air intake, then expand that air
to slow it down, thereby increasing its pressure at the radiator surface.
Then re-squish it to lower the pressure and accelerate the air into the air
stream aft of the system. I did this on my 2, and it does work. My radiator
is mounted horizontal at the bottom of the firewall, behind the muffler can.
I built a reverse scoop with moveable flap that exits at the bottom aft
cowl. It removes the drag of being under the fuse, and shortens the coolant
lines.>
Had I the space to place my radiator up inside the engine area I would have gone
this way. Prior to my first flight with my S5 Soob I was pretty sure I was
going to have cooling problems. I had the radiator in the conventional area hanging
in the breeze under the firewall where it acts like an air dam that adds
some wonderful drag, but isn't very efficient at cooling. Air will take the
easiest route, especially at higher speeds and when faced with an obstacle it
will go around it. The rad fins do allow air to pass through, but higher speeds
most of it doesn't.
As I wanted to ensure that radiator drag was minimum and cooling was efficient
I did some extensive research into this, including Bernoulli and found that a
scoop using the basic 1/3 in 2/3 out principle would be a good starting point.
I fabricated a fiberglass scoop with an intake about 3X11" and the exhaust 3X33.
The scoop entrance starts out well in front of the rad to allow the air
to expand and terminates about 18" behind the radiator under the floorboards.
The rad is sealed inside the scoop so that ALL air has to go through it, not
around it.
My first flight was without the scoop and cooling was poor with cruise about 90
with 3900rpm/22"mp. I then added the scoop and cruise went up over 100 (same
numbers) and cooling was perfect. Wheel pants and a couple other small speed
mods have improved speed even more. Since then I've also added a cockpit controllable
rear scoop flap using a Boden cable that enables me to control the amount
of air exiting the scoop. The flap has a lip on it so that when wide open
it increases the low pressure area behind the scoop that sucks more air through.
This works great on long taxis and long climbs.
It isn't perfect, but does the job nicely.
I've added a link to the Kitfox Sportflight archives where it can be viewed if anybody is interested. Go to http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=3Dmain then "improvements" then scroll down to my radiator scoop pics, items dated 12/23/02, 12/08/00. There's also a few shots of my gas cap fairings in there too if anyone wants to get anal over drag reduction. :-)
Hope this helps somebody.
Regards,
Deke
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Beautiful work. Gorgeous Kitfox. The idea that a shrowd with a frontal area smaller
than the radiator would actually improve cooling seems counter intuitive
to me. Fluid dynamics is a more mysterious subject then I would have guessed.
I don't suppose that you have any links to the theory that's at work here?
-Luis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14630#14630
Message 8
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| Subject: | Source for custom (smooth) cowl for Mod IV? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
My Model 4 has the traditional round cowl. I really like the smooth cowel of the
Mode 5/7 much more. Anyone out there making retrofit cowls for the Model 4?
-Luis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14635#14635
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thanks. This is over simplification, but you want the high pressure area at
the (smaller) inlet and low pressure at the (larger) outlet. The low
pressure creates the suction that pulls the air through which is essentially
a venturi. Fabricating a lip at the outlet end further lowers the pressure
which results in more suction. Of course, all of this can reach a point of
diminishing returns which resulted in the approximate 1/3-2/3 rule.
Consider LoPresti's cowls where he actually made the inlets smaller to
achieve better cooling and aerodynamics. Much of what I learned was from
the RV and Airsoob lists, as well as various internet sites. I'm not an
engineer or anything remotely close. I just learned what works.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop)
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> Beautiful work. Gorgeous Kitfox. The idea that a shrowd with a frontal
area smaller than the radiator would actually improve cooling seems counter
intuitive to me. Fluid dynamics is a more mysterious subject then I would
have guessed. I don't suppose that you have any links to the theory that's
at work here?
>
> -Luis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14630#14630
>
>
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
This weekend I will try to post them up. Maybe Sportflight site. I'll let
you all know when and where.
Bradley
KF2 N1836
Middle GA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Radiator ideas
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 03:53 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote:
>I'm guessing what the article is really saying is that you must play around
>with Bernoulli.
Bradley's got it right; and I'd love to see his installation. I have the
radiator below the fuselage with the Skystar "scoop" which is just a big
flat plate as far as drag is concerned. A real radiator scoop actually
provides thrust, as in the P-51, because the heat added increases the
velocity of the exhaust beyond that of the incoming air. I hadn't thought
there was room in the cowl for this type of installation. I'll have to take
another look.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 11
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
...or waaaaaaaiting for all the various inspectors to get their acts
together and sign the damn thing off!
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
do not archive
On Friday, February 24, 2006, at 09:33 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
>> Can some one give us an update on the latest news on Kitfox -
>> Skystar??
>
> It seems that the only thing that takes longer than building your own
> airplane is waiting for a bankruptcy court to finish its business...
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
What plane are you talking about, Luis?
(Be sure to include a snippet of the previous post so somebody coming
in "a little late" will know what previous post you are referring to.)
Lynn
On Friday, February 24, 2006, at 10:29 AM, wingnut wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> Beautiful work. Gorgeous Kitfox. The idea that a shrowd with a frontal
> area smaller than the radiator would actually improve cooling seems
> counter intuitive to me. Fluid dynamics is a more mysterious subject
> then I would have guessed. I don't suppose that you have any links to
> the theory that's at work here?
>
> -Luis
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14630#14630
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Source for custom (smooth) cowl for Mod IV? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: michael burkhardt <mjbavid@yahoo.com>
Try to contact airdale.com, Steve Winder may be able
to help. Mike
do not archive
--- wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut"
> <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
>
> My Model 4 has the traditional round cowl. I really
> like the smooth cowel of the Mode 5/7 much more.
> Anyone out there making retrofit cowls for the Model
> 4?
>
> -Luis
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14635#14635
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Radiator Ideas (scoop) |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> What plane are you talking about, Luis?
> (Be sure to include a snippet of the previous post so somebody coming
> in "a little late" will know what previous post you are referring to.)
>
Sorry. I've been using the forum interface that organizes all the entries in the
same thread into a single contiguous page. I'd forgotten that there are still
people who would rather use email. It's too bad that not everyone can use the
forum interface. It makes all the extra text unnecessary.
-Luis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14733#14733
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: cutting prop bolt threads |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rich Williamson" <rwill1@adelphia.net>
Ah ha.... thanks for the info, I had no idea!!!
Rich
Message 16
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rich Williamson" <rwill1@adelphia.net>
Agreed...thanks
Message 17
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| Subject: | KF2 weight balance is AOK |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com
after swapping out my 532 for a 582 with a e box and adding a bigger
battery and larger 11+ 22 tires my weight and balance came out almost in the middle
of cg range of 11.8 out of 10.20 to 14.28. tail weight of 30 LB and mains
of 262 LB and 255 =547 as was calculated by a EAA tech adviser and 30+
year a&p and it all fit under the original cowling. that is 37 LB over the
weight and balance sheet that came with the plain after fuel and my 250 LB
butt I still get 50 LB for camping gear or aluminum floats mal
Message 18
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| Subject: | Ribs,Tail Feathers |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Howie's Mail" <howiebee@frontiernet.net>
I am new to the net ......
I have a Classic 4 kitfox and I am looking for the patters or who to contact for
the tail feather ribs,,,,,Maybe someone can help...
Howie
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: KF2 weight balance is AOK |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Sid Hausding <avidsid@yahoo.com>
Where'd gaa git 11 X 22 tires?
Sid
-------------
Malcolmbru@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com
after swapping out my 532 for a 582 with a e box and adding a bigger
battery and larger 11+ 22 tires my weight and balance came out almost in the middle
of cg range of 11.8 out of 10.20 to 14.28. tail weight of 30 LB and mains
of 262 LB and 255 =547 as was calculated by a EAA tech adviser and 30+
year a&p and it all fit under the original cowling. that is 37 LB over the
weight and balance sheet that came with the plain after fuel and my 250 LB
butt I still get 50 LB for camping gear or aluminum floats mal
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