Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - Re: calculating Va (kurt schrader)
2. 01:36 AM - Re: calculating Va (Michel Verheughe)
3. 04:20 AM - Re: calculating Va (Fox5flyer)
4. 05:41 AM - Re: Baggage compartment (Dan Billingsley)
5. 08:21 AM - Re: Poly-Fiber stuff (ron schick)
6. 08:50 AM - CARGO POD (JeffFowler@aol.com)
7. 09:26 AM - Re: CARGO POD (ron schick)
8. 09:27 AM - Re: CARGO POD (wingnut)
9. 12:35 PM - Re: Re: CARGO POD (JeffFowler@aol.com)
10. 01:44 PM - Re: KF2 weight balance is AOK (Mark.Summers@lwbref.com)
11. 03:31 PM - Re: Poly-Fiber stuff (Eric)
12. 03:42 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (John King)
13. 04:01 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (Guy Buchanan)
14. 04:48 PM - POD (Sid Hausding)
15. 08:07 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (kurt schrader)
16. 08:07 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (John Anderson)
17. 08:25 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (kurt schrader)
18. 08:32 PM - Re: Baggage compartment and Intercooler (kurt schrader)
19. 08:34 PM - Re: Baggage compartment (kurt schrader)
20. 11:04 PM - Re: Avid/Kitfox (Alan & Linda Daniels)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: calculating Va |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Michel,
I think the point is that you will reach your limit
before the Fox will, unless you are a fighter pilot.
After all, we are up there for fun, right? If it
isn't fun, slow down, or go down and wait until it is
nicer.
And you are right about my having to work at it. For
work they give me a 2.5 G plane? I flew around to a
completely different country to avoid clear air
turbulence last year, because I had to hold myself
down in the seat to go thru it. Worst I had seen in
many years and I wasn't about to go thru it at any
speed.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
>
> Hello Kurt,
>
> On Mar 2, 2006, at 12:29 AM, kurt schrader wrote:
>
> > In the Fox, I slow down when it scares me.
>
> So do I! But I was hoping for a slightly more
> descriptive experience..........
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: calculating Va |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:12 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote:
> Isn't that the real point of a forum such as this?
Of course, Bradly: Learning and enjoying it!
On Mar 3, 2006, at 12:39 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> I think the Kitfox is a fine airplane, well designed and engineered.
So do I, my dear Lowell "Alfred E. Neuman" Fitt! :-)
Be happy, don't worry!
On Mar 3, 2006, at 9:13 AM, kurt schrader wrote:
> I think the point is that you will reach your limit before the Fox
> will.
That is, actually, the kind of answer I was looking for, Kurt. If I am
the weakest link, I know I won't put myself in turbulence danger
because my tolerance is very low, indeed. It also matches my opinion
about sailing: Any modern sailboat will take much more than any crew
will. As an unfortunate result, life are lost at sea because vessels
are abandoned while they are found still floating after the storm. We
are the weakest link but we must learn to keep our head cool when the
sh... hum, turbulence ,,, hits the fan!
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: calculating Va |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Good one Kurt. Cleared it all right up for me.
Thanks for taking the time.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 2:48 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: calculating Va
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> Clem,
>
> Never a bad question.
>
> Some of us skin a cat front to back, some back to
> front. If John's example didn't go your direction,
> try this one. (Mom always said I was a bit backward)
>
> Suppose a plane has a gross weight of 1000 lbs. At X
> speed it can just lift 3.8 G's or 3,800 lbs before
> stalling. So X = VA speed at gross weight.
>
> If you loaded the plane to only 760 lbs and flew it at
> the same X speed, it could still lift 3,800 lbs, but
> that would take 5 G's to reach 3,800 lbs of lift and
> stall it.
>
> WT G's Wing load
> 1000 x 3.8 = 3,800 lbs
> 760 x 5 = 3,800 lbs
>
> The lighter the weight, the more G's you can pull at
> the same speed and it is the G's that cause the
> overload because the engine (and you, etc) still weigh
> the same. So you have to slow down to keep from
> exceeding 3.8 G's before stalling at lower weights.
>
> 760 lbs x 3.8 G's = 2,888 lbs of lift
>
> At 760 lbs, you need to slow down so that your wing
> can only generate 2,888 lbs of lift before stalling or
> you can exceed 3.8 G's.
>
> >From this you should see that it is not the wings that
> will fail on a Fox. They can lift gross weight at the
> designed G limit. But the other components can exceed
> their G'limit before the wings stall, let alone fail,
> at below gross weight, or higher than VA speeds.
>
> Likewise in the rock and string example, the lighter
> rock (plane) can be spun to a higher G limit before
> the string (wing) breaks. The G limit of the rock,
> not the string is the limiting factor.
>
> Hope that helps because simple is all I can do
> anymore. ;-)
>
> Kurt S. S-5
Message 4
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| Subject: | Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
Kurt,
It may be a little tough if you already have your bird covered, but have you
thought of building a floor in over the pushrod? Built with aluminum angle and
held in place with adel clamps. If interested I can send a few pictures...contact
off site.
Dan B
Mesa, AZ
www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html
kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
Probably just me, but it is the baggage floor on those
tiny little weld mounts just above the elevator push
rod that bothers me the most when I am loaded anywhere
near 150 lbs. 3.8 x 150 = 570 lbs.
Sure the baggage fabric carries some of the load to
its mounts, but those tiny weldments..... Just wish I
added a few extra braces for peace of mind, I suppose.
Did anyone ever do that?
Kurt S. S-5
Do not archive
--- jdmcbean wrote:
> ......................
> FYI.. The engine mount, baggage area even the
> horizontal tail surface was load tested.
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John McBean
> www.sportplanellc.com
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 5
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| Subject: | Poly-Fiber stuff |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Eric where are you? I will have a gallon or so of Polyspray if shipping is
not prohibitive. Ron NB Ore
do not archive
>From: "Eric" <iworonko@cox.net>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Poly-Fiber stuff
>Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 19:56:46 -0600
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Eric" <iworonko@cox.net>
>
>If anyone has any leftover covering materials ( fabric, reinforcing tapes,
>chemicals...) I would like to buy them from you as long as the chemicals
>have not expired their shelf life.
>Eric
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: JeffFowler@aol.com
Hello Everyone,
Does anyone have one of these that they can get the outside dimensions for
me? I've checked in our pictures archive and I can't even find on to view.
Thanks,
Jeff Fowler
Message 7
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Check out avidflyeraircraft. Search all one word or it doesn't come up.
Chris flys with a kayak and I think a pod under his Avid. Ron Nb Ore
>From: JeffFowler@aol.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: CARGO POD
>Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 11:49:31 EST
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: JeffFowler@aol.com
>
>Hello Everyone,
>
> Does anyone have one of these that they can get the outside dimensions
>for
>me? I've checked in our pictures archive and I can't even find on to view.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jeff Fowler
>
>
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Mine is 14.5 wide, 12 deep and 49.75 long. Depth was tricky to measure precisely
I'd say that it's only good to within 1/2 inch. The other measurements shold
be much closer.
-Luis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=19379#19379
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: JeffFowler@aol.com
Thanks Ron & Louis for the help on the cargo pod info. I didn't know the
Avid Flyer used the same unit. It does make sense though because of their
lineage.
Jeff Fowler
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: KF2 weight balance is AOK |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Mark.Summers@lwbref.com
I saw your tire size and not familiar with the size, I am looking for a
taller and a little more narrow tire than I have, mine are 18x8x8 anybody
have any suggestions of what sizes that are being used on kitfoxes I see
pictures of kitfoxes and some of them have tires that don't look like golf
cart tires. Like I say they look taller and more narrow I would guess 7"
wide.
Thanks Mark Summers
kf 2 582
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Poly-Fiber stuff |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Eric" <iworonko@cox.net>
Hi Ron,
I am in Tulsa , Oklahoma 74129
Eric
----- Original Message -----
From: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Poly-Fiber stuff
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick"
> <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
>
> Eric where are you? I will have a gallon or so of Polyspray if shipping is
> not prohibitive. Ron NB Ore
>
> do not archive
>
>>From: "Eric" <iworonko@cox.net>
>>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Kitfox-List: Poly-Fiber stuff
>>Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 19:56:46 -0600
>>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Eric" <iworonko@cox.net>
>>
>>If anyone has any leftover covering materials ( fabric, reinforcing tapes,
>>chemicals...) I would like to buy them from you as long as the chemicals
>>have not expired their shelf life.
>>Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Kurt,
That bothered me when I was building my Series 6. Also I did not like
the fabric sides as a support to contain shifting cargo in turbulence.
I decided to remove the fabric entirely and designed solid sides and a
back end with removal 3/32-inch aircraft grade plywood. The plywood
sides and bottom also supported the cargo deck. It turned into a much
more sturdier cargo bay.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
kurt schrader wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
>Probably just me, but it is the baggage floor on those
>tiny little weld mounts just above the elevator push
>rod that bothers me the most when I am loaded anywhere
>near 150 lbs. 3.8 x 150 = 570 lbs.
>
>Sure the baggage fabric carries some of the load to
>its mounts, but those tiny weldments..... Just wish I
>added a few extra braces for peace of mind, I suppose.
> Did anyone ever do that?
>
>Kurt S. S-5
>
>Do not archive
>
>--- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>......................
>>FYI.. The engine mount, baggage area even the
>>horizontal tail surface was load tested.
>>
>>Fly Safe !!
>>John McBean
>>www.sportplanellc.com
>>"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 11:05 PM 3/2/2006, you wrote:
>Probably just me, but it is the baggage floor on those
>tiny little weld mounts just above the elevator push
>rod that bothers me the most when I am loaded anywhere
>near 150 lbs. 3.8 x 150 = 570 lbs.
I did just that, except being a IV I designed it for about 6x40 =
240lb at ultimate, (failure). I then tested it by climbing in and jumping
up and down on it. (I weigh about 195, so needed some G's.)
You definitely should be bothered by the proximity of the control
rod. A failure of the baggage floor could ruin your whole day. I know some
say it's not easy to hit 3.8 g's, but when I was doing aerobatic training I
found it quite easy. Six is more difficult, but if you're flying at or near
Vne it's supposedly rather easy. (Some birds are ultra strong and Vne is
set by flutter considerations. I personally do not believe my IV is over
strong, (the spherical bearings at the outboard strut ends are marginal,)
so suspect Vne may be a structural limit. (Note discussion of motor mounts
elsewhere.))
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Sid Hausding <avidsid@yahoo.com>
Ahem, excuse me Jeff,
The Kitfox is derived directly from the Avid design...............just for your
info.
Sid
Speedwing N204S
-----------------------------------do not archive :-)
JeffFowler@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: JeffFowler@aol.com
Thanks Ron & Louis for the help on the cargo pod info. I didn't know the
Avid Flyer used the same unit. It does make sense though because of their
lineage.
Jeff Fowler
"Why can't we all just get along?"
---------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Thanks John,
Did you fasten the wood to the upper tubing with Adel
clemps, or what? Any other supports added? Did it
add much weight? I suppose it is removable. I'll do
an upgrade on that later on my plane.
Kurt S.
--- John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Kurt,
>
> That bothered me when I was building my Series 6.
> Also I did not like
> the fabric sides as a support to contain shifting
> cargo in turbulence.
> I decided to remove the fabric entirely and designed
> solid sides and a
> back end with removal 3/32-inch aircraft grade
> plywood. The plywood
> sides and bottom also supported the cargo deck. It
> turned into a much more sturdier cargo bay.
>
> --
> John King
> Warrenton, VA
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
The thing with cargo in a/c is that it MUST be tethered...so long as the
base (floor) is strong enough and secure. On my 5 I have secured the
baggage floor to the fuse mounts with ring top bolts and have a securing net
and tie downs.
John A.
Series 5 EA 81 Intercooled Turbo
From: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Baggage compartment
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Kurt,
That bothered me when I was building my Series 6. Also I did not like
the fabric sides as a support to contain shifting cargo in turbulence.
I decided to remove the fabric entirely and designed solid sides and a
back end with removal 3/32-inch aircraft grade plywood. The plywood
sides and bottom also supported the cargo deck. It turned into a much
more sturdier cargo bay.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
kurt schrader wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
><smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
>Probably just me, but it is the baggage floor on those
>tiny little weld mounts just above the elevator push
>rod that bothers me the most when I am loaded anywhere
>near 150 lbs. 3.8 x 150 = 570 lbs.
>
>Sure the baggage fabric carries some of the load to
>its mounts, but those tiny weldments..... Just wish I
>added a few extra braces for peace of mind, I suppose.
>Did anyone ever do that?
>
>Kurt S. S-5
>
>Do not archive
>
>--- jdmcbean <jdmcbean@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>
>>......................
>>FYI.. The engine mount, baggage area even the
>>horizontal tail surface was load tested.
>>
>>Fly Safe !!
>>John McBean
>>www.sportplanellc.com
>>"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>>
>>
>
>
Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids
Message 17
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| Subject: | Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Thanks Guy,
I need to improve that cargo area. I would be
uncomfortable risking sitting on my cargo floor. As
for now, I keep it limited to 135 lbs and that loaded
forward because the elevator tube could rub.
You are right about wing strut ends too. Mine had to
have the upgraded bolts to use 1550# gross. And there
are those few components that have no redundancy that
you better check every preflight and every annual too.
As for G's, it is amazing what one can achieve when
distracted. When I flew A-4's, I remember a certain
flight doing air combat maneuverine (ACM) in
particular. The "enemy" was behind me. I was flying
at full power, left hand on the stick upside down
(thumb down and elbow up) spun around in my seat to
face backwards, and standing on the peddles. After
the fight I saw 6 G's on the meter. Lost a lot of
weight in 1.5 hours on those flights! And I really
appreciate every day what our military does.
Kurt S.
Do not archive
--- Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> wrote:
> I did just that, except being a IV I
> designed it for about 6x40 =
> 240lb at ultimate, (failure). I then tested it by
> climbing in and jumping
> up and down on it. (I weigh about 195, so needed
> some G's.)
> You definitely should be bothered by the
> proximity of the control
> rod. A failure of the baggage floor could ruin your
> whole day.............
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Baggage compartment and Intercooler |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Agreed John,
I used eyebolts there too with straps and nets. I
also pull that baggage fabric as tight as I can before
it is velcroed in place to spread the floor load. I
added washers under the floor to raise it just a tad
too. Still worries me.
But now you have to tell us how you intercooled the
turbo???
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- John Anderson <janderson412@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The thing with cargo in a/c is that it MUST be
> tethered...so long as the
> base (floor) is strong enough and secure. On my 5 I
> have secured the
> baggage floor to the fuse mounts with ring top bolts
> and have a securing net and tie downs.
> John A.
> Series 5 EA 81 Intercooled Turbo
Message 19
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| Subject: | Baggage compartment |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Yes Dan,
I'd like to see how you did it. Mine is flying, but
never "done". It can always be made better.
Kurt S.
--- Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com> wrote:
> Kurt,
> It may be a little tough if you already have your
> bird covered, but have you thought of building a
> floor in over the pushrod? Built with aluminum angle
> and held in place with adel clamps. If interested I
> can send a few pictures...contact off site.
> Dan B
> Mesa, AZ
> www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html
Message 20
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
This gets heated, and depends on who you talk to. My understanding is
Dan Denning and Dean Wilson started together and made the Kitfox. Dean
did much of the design work. They ended up parting ways and both making
much the same airplane. The major difference came when the new owner
took the design of the Kitfix Model 5 to the next level, which was
extensively engineered to meet the proposed new certification. I do not
think Avid made the engineering commitment, but I am not sure. I have
talked with both men, and found them both to be fascinating. I think
they needed each other to make a good plane and start the company, but
both are very independent. Dan Denning is the can do visionary promoter
and Dean was the designer/ engineer that could make it work. So which
started first, Kitfox did, which was much Dean's design, who started
Avid after striking out on his own. I was not there so this is just my
understanding from being on the edges. I am sure there are others that
can tell how they saw it, but the how and why of the start and split is
probably only know to them, and each has his own version. Both men have
gone on the make some really cool stuff. Thunder Mustang and now a
really neat ATV and other stuff for Dan and several new airplane designs
for Dean. IMHO these two men really started the Kit airplane movement as
we know it, and for that I thank them.
Sid Hausding wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Sid Hausding <avidsid@yahoo.com>
>
>Ahem, excuse me Jeff,
>
> The Kitfox is derived directly from the Avid design...............just for your
info.
>
> Sid
> Speedwing N204S
>
> -----------------------------------do not archive :-)
>
>
>
>JeffFowler@aol.com wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: JeffFowler@aol.com
>
>Thanks Ron & Louis for the help on the cargo pod info. I didn't know the
>Avid Flyer used the same unit. It does make sense though because of their
>lineage.
>
>Jeff Fowler
>
>
>"Why can't we all just get along?"
>
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