Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:24 AM - Fabric weight (Graeme Toft)
2. 01:47 AM - Kitfox Folding Wings (paul nightingale)
3. 03:00 AM - Re: Fabric weight (Brett Walmsley)
4. 03:03 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Brett Walmsley)
5. 03:33 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Lynn Matteson)
6. 03:47 AM - Re: toe in/toe out (Bradley M Webb)
7. 04:02 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Harold Flynn)
8. 04:27 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Ceashman@aol.com)
9. 04:30 AM - Kitfox Handling Problems (Larry Martin)
10. 04:40 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Fox5flyer)
11. 06:08 AM - Re: Fabric weight (Dave and Diane)
12. 06:27 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (Alan & Linda Daniels)
13. 06:53 AM - Re: Kitfox handling problems (RaNDY Frost)
14. 08:12 AM - Re: Fabric weight (Lowell Fitt)
15. 08:22 AM - Re: Kitfox handling problems (Marco Menezes)
16. 09:01 AM - Re: Kitfox Folding Wings (jdmcbean)
17. 09:42 AM - Re: Kitfox handling problems (Bradley M Webb)
18. 09:42 AM - Re: Fabric weight (jdmcbean)
19. 09:49 AM - Re: Fabric weight (Jerry Liles)
20. 10:12 AM - Re: Kitfox handling problems Wh wiat! (Aerobatics@aol.com)
21. 10:35 AM - Re: toe in/toe out (Lowell Fitt)
22. 11:14 AM - Toe in Toe Out (Lowell Fitt)
23. 11:37 AM - Re: Ailerons retaining water (dcaofak)
24. 12:38 PM - Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Lynn Matteson)
25. 01:13 PM - Re: Fabric weight (Graeme Toft)
26. 01:14 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Graeme Toft)
27. 01:17 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Michel Verheughe)
28. 01:22 PM - Re: Kitfox handling problems Wh wiat! (Graeme Toft)
29. 01:24 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Alan & Linda Daniels)
30. 02:50 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (John Anderson)
31. 03:31 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Fred Shiple)
32. 04:10 PM - Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Frank Miles)
33. 05:12 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Aerobatics@aol.com)
34. 05:18 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Brett Walmsley)
35. 05:18 PM - Re: Kitfox handling problems (eccles)
36. 05:26 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Jerry Liles)
37. 05:40 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Don Pearsall)
38. 05:46 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Andrew Matthaey)
39. 06:18 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Randy Daughenbaugh)
40. 06:22 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Donna and Roger McConnell)
41. 06:44 PM - Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! (Lynn Matteson)
42. 07:13 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
43. 07:37 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Aerobatics@aol.com)
44. 07:48 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Frank Miles)
45. 07:55 PM - Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM (Aerobatics@aol.com)
46. 08:57 PM - 912UL coming out of storage (clemwehner)
47. 10:03 PM - DAR is wrong (Alan & Linda Daniels)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about the material
weight to use. I am told there are several different weight fabrics and
that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone confirm this for
me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful to make before I close
the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close now!!!!!
Cheers
Graeme
Message 2
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| Subject: | Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul nightingale" <paul.nightingale@ntlworld.com>
Hi everyone
My names Paul Nightingale I'm pretty new to the list, signed on a few months ago
and really enjoy reading whats going on with you guys but as yet never needed
to ask any questions. First question then i'm in the U.K. building a Mk 7 still
in the early stages had the airplane just a year now, took a year to get
it out of skystar and got screwed for landing gear wheels or brakes when they
went bang. Some friends came over last weekend to see it and asked me this question.
How much pressure is on the leading edge of the wing in flight and can
the pins shear and allow the wings to fold back in flight - i said no they cant
and there is little pressure on the leading edge but dont no for sure any comments
from you guys can this happen ???
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fabric weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
Yes,
Medium is the recommended fabric weight.
Just an observation on my part. I used uncertfied fabric for my rudder. I
did not like it at all compare to poly-fiber medium, which I found very nice
to work with.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:17 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fabric weight
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
>
> Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about
> the material weight to use. I am told there are several different weight
> fabrics and that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone
> confirm this for me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful
> to make before I close the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close
> now!!!!!
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
Someone else will surely have more specific info but.
I think the shear on that 1/4 inch pin is around 125,000 #.
An there is very little load to the rear during flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul nightingale" <paul.nightingale@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Folding Wings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul nightingale"
> <paul.nightingale@ntlworld.com>
>
> Hi everyone
>
> My names Paul Nightingale I'm pretty new to the list, signed on a few
> months ago and really enjoy reading whats going on with you guys but as
> yet never needed to ask any questions. First question then i'm in the U.K.
> building a Mk 7 still in the early stages had the airplane just a year
> now, took a year to get it out of skystar and got screwed for landing gear
> wheels or brakes when they went bang. Some friends came over last weekend
> to see it and asked me this question. How much pressure is on the leading
> edge of the wing in flight and can the pins shear and allow the wings to
> fold back in flight - i said no they cant and there is little pressure on
> the leading edge but dont no for sure any comments from you guys can this
> happen ???
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
1/4"? Mine, on a IV, is 5/16"
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
On Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 06:03 AM, Brett Walmsley wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
>
> Someone else will surely have more specific info but.
> I think the shear on that 1/4 inch pin is around 125,000 #.
> An there is very little load to the rear during flight.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul nightingale" <paul.nightingale@ntlworld.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:47 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Folding Wings
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Lowell,
Did you make a typo here? You described toe-in, and called it toe-out.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
John,
Mine also - wheels out going backward and in going forward and I know for
sure it is slightly toed out. I put spring gear on as a retrofit and paid
particular attention to wheel alighnment. I tweeked the tube gear to
correct a significant toe in before the spring gear installation.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
> <janderson412@hotmail.com>
>
> My Series 5 with spring gear seems the same when moving around the hangar
> but no tendancy to wander in anger. John A.
>
>
> From: kerrjohna@comcast.net
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 04:10:52 +0000
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>
> one more thing to keep the discussion going. Camber = toe in while in
> the
> three point position, true?
>
> when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling
> backward
> causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward. Rolling forward
> causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling
> forward. When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any
> sense
> of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel
> then
> the other.
>
> on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get it
> right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for
> alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..
>
> any thoughts.
>
> John Kerr
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
>>
>>Bradley,
>>I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be
>>achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?
>>
>>Lowell
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Bradley M Webb"
>>To:
>>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 4:07 AM
>>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>>
>>
>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb"
>> >
>> > Interesting. Mine is toed in, and I can see the logic in toe-out. I
>>don't
>> > know how hard it is to change. I imagine lots of bending, grunting, and
>> > cursing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> one more thing to keep the discussion going. Camber = toe in while in the
> three point position, true?
>
> when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling
> backward
> causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward. Rolling forward
> causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling
> forward. When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any sense
> of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel
> then
> the other.
>
> on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get it
> right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for
> alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..
>
> any thoughts.
>
> John Kerr
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <LCFITT@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>
> Bradley,
> I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be
> achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bradley M Webb" <BMWEBB@COX.NET>
> To: <KITFOX-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 4:07 AM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>
>
> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <BMWEBB@COX.NET>
>
> Interesting. Mine is toed in, and I can see the logic in toe-out. I
> don't
> know how hard it is to change. I imagine lots of bending,
> grunting, and
> cursing.
>
>
> Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
> http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Harold Flynn <hflynn46531@yahoo.com>
Brett Walmsley <n93hj@numail.org> wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
"Brett Walmsley"
Someone else will surely have more specific info but.
I think the shear on that 1/4 inch pin is around 125,000 #.
An there is very little load to the rear during flight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul nightingale"
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Folding Wings
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul nightingale"
>
>
> Hi everyone
>
> My names Paul Nightingale I'm pretty new to the list, signed on a few
> months ago and really enjoy reading whats going on with you guys but as
> yet never needed to ask any questions. First question then i'm in the U.K.
> building a Mk 7 still in the early stages had the airplane just a year
> now, took a year to get it out of skystar and got screwed for landing gear
> wheels or brakes when they went bang. Some friends came over last weekend
> to see it and asked me this question. How much pressure is on the leading
> edge of the wing in flight and can the pins shear and allow the wings to
> fold back in flight - i said no they cant and there is little pressure on
> the leading edge but dont no for sure any comments from you guys can this
> happen ???
>
Hi
When I was building my S5 I asked the same question. The answer I got from
SkyStar's Tec. adviser was that in straight and level flight you could actualy
remove the front pins and the forward lifting force of the wing would actualy
keep it in place. Never tried it though.
Harold Flynn
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Ceashman@aol.com
>Paul Nightingale wrote that he needs to be comfortable with the shear
strength of the front >attach pin.
Paul, look around the airport hangars at light airplanes being recovered
Piper cubs and things like that all have about the same flimsy looking bolt. And
these have lasted for years.
Now' If your heat shields are glowing on the leading edge there would
probably be too much friction and back pressure, this could cause extra stress
on the
pin.
I don't know, but I think if I were to taxi too fast between two hangars with
not enough space, I would probably rip the wings off, but I think the tear
would be at the end of the aluminum tube where we rivet the little steel tabs
that the pin goes through.
I would not worry about the pin.
I would worry about my sense of periphery
Not very scientific, I know. But I had fun writing it.
Eric.
do not archive.
Ex Brit living in Atlanta GA, Classic 4
Message 9
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| Subject: | Kitfox Handling Problems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" <CrownLJ@verizon.net>
The absolute best "fix" for the lack of elevator is lead on the tail. The Kitfox
CG range is nose heavy even within the range. I have tried to make my Avid
mk1V elevator 20% larger, to no avial - yes gap seals too) At the time, I had
already moved my CG from10ish to 14ish. I called the designer Dean Wilson,
and he told me to move it to the aft limit (which is still safe). I now have
the empty cg on the aft limit, people & fuel bring it forward. If I do want to
put stuff in the luggage, I simply take off lead weight to compensate. I always
land power off 3 point, as close to stall as I am able and still the tail
touches 1st. ( I'm trying to change the gear angle now) Try to mount a 5# weight
on the tail and go try it - you will like it. From there you can refine
it to your liking. I am not suggesting that you EXCEED the aft limit, but it
was set as a limit with the idea it would be flown there and the usual saftey
margins have been designed with that considered.
Larry
Time: 05:56:41 PM PST US
From: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Hi Dave,
You might be right. My empty CG is 10.65, within the range (10.2-14.28) but
admittedly toward the front end of it. How does that translate into MAC? In the
Ed Downs book, he describes the stall characteristics of a model 2 exactly like
how mine acts. I thought it was fairly typical for the design so have left
well enough alone.
Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
msm_9949@yahoo.com writes:
Bradley,
I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at
"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall" landing
in
my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more like
a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at first
until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown. Now,
if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't
tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good for
that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything else.
Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me. You
might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare.... I
believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy
Best,
Dave Patrick KF2
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I think they're all 5/16 inch.
Deke
>
> Someone else will surely have more specific info but.
> I think the shear on that 1/4 inch pin is around 125,000 #.
> An there is very little load to the rear during flight.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul nightingale"
>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 4:47 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Folding Wings
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul nightingale"
> >
>
> >
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > My names Paul Nightingale I'm pretty new to the list, signed on a few
> > months ago and really enjoy reading whats going on with you guys but as
> > yet never needed to ask any questions. First question then i'm in the
U.K.
> > building a Mk 7 still in the early stages had the airplane just a year
> > now, took a year to get it out of skystar and got screwed for landing
gear
> > wheels or brakes when they went bang. Some friends came over last
weekend
> > to see it and asked me this question. How much pressure is on the
leading
> > edge of the wing in flight and can the pins shear and allow the wings to
> > fold back in flight - i said no they cant and there is little pressure
on
> > the leading edge but dont no for sure any comments from you guys can
this
> > happen ???
> >
> Hi
> When I was building my S5 I asked the same question. The answer I
got from SkyStar's Tec. adviser was that in straight and level flight you
could actualy remove the front pins and the forward lifting force of the
wing would actualy keep it in place. Never tried it though.
>
Harold Flynn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fabric weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
Graem,
Congrats on getting ready to cover your wings - I still have a bit to do
before covering mine, now I need to catch up....
Anyway, on the fabric weight, if you are using the Polyfiber system, there are
three weights available and you want to use the medium weight. The light
weight is uncertified and intended for ultralights while the heavy weight is
for something that goes much faster than your Never Exceed Speed anyway.
Also- if you are using the Polyfiber products and do not have a copy of their
Procedure Manual No. 1 titled "How to cover an aircraft using the the
Polyfiber System" I would really recommend the book - doesn't cost that much
and if the manual is followed - a first timer can do a really good job - it
is a very good self teaching aid. I am not recommending this firm's line of
products over others, however, if you are using them - get the manual. I
don't have any familiarity with fabric weights for other brands of covering
systems.
Sincerely,
Dave S
St Paul, Mn
Do Not Archive
On Saturday 11 March 2006 3:17 am, Graeme Toft wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
>
> Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about
> the material weight to use. I am told there are several different weight
> fabrics and that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone
> confirm this for me.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
>
>
The only one I know of pulling out is when he overshot the runway on an
engine out emergency and put the model 5 through the trees and brush.
The pin was intact, but it pulled through the aluminum spar and steal
doublers, but what really surprised me was that it pulled so hard that
it actually broke the carry through tube at the center weld cluster.
That's not just tough, that's stout as heck. All he had to do was
machine an insert for the spar to replace the steal doubler and weld up
the carry through tube, replace the windshield and he was back flying. I
flew it after the repair and it was just fine. Like I have said before,
this little airplane is amazing, and will take far more than most people
imagine.
>I think they're all 5/16 inch.
>Deke
>
>
>
>>Someone else will surely have more specific info but.
>>I think the shear on that 1/4 inch pin is around 125,000 #.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox handling problems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RaNDY Frost" <jamesrfrost@hotmail.com>
Where could I get these gap seals? I have a 3 that runs out of elevator
too. Should I take some weight out of the nose? On the engine mount there
is this 1.5" pipe with lead shot inside I believe.
Randy of Gainesville, Ga
>From: Aerobatics@aol.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:20 EST
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>msm_9949@yahoo.com writes:
>
>Bradley,
>
>I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at
>"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall"
>landing in
>my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more
>like
>a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at
>first
>until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown.
>Now,
>if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't
>tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good
>for
>that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything
>else.
>
>
>Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me.
>You
>might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare....
>I
>believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy
>Best,
>Dave Patrick KF2
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fabric weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Graeme,
The larger Kitfox models use the medium weight fabric and maye the IV in
later iterations. Mine a Model IV was shipped in March 1993 and came with
the light wt fabric. There has been discussion on this in the past with
varying opinions. I have had no issues with the lighter fabric and fabric
failure has never been an issue anywhere, to my knowledge - cuts and dings
excluded, see below. For what it's worth, with your heavier engine set-up,
you might be interested in weight saving elsewhere. It is my understanding
that lighter fabric results in less total finish weight - less polybrush to
fill the weave.
I guess that if you operate on realtively unimproved strips, the tougher
fabric might lend itself to fewer gravel dings and that might be worth it.
My Model IV has been into many gravel strips and have had no issues to date
from that - 760 hours. I guess once again it is the belts and suspenders
thing - your choice.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:17 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fabric weight
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
>
> Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about
> the material weight to use. I am told there are several different weight
> fabrics and that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone
> confirm this for me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful
> to make before I close the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close
> now!!!!!
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox handling problems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Randy,
There are alot of different products that are suitable for gap seals. Check the
archives for many discussions on this topic. I used Frost King weather sealing
tape available at most any hardware store up here where it's cold. Comes clear
in 2" width. I cut two strips to length overlapped them by an inch so there's
one sticky side up, one down and applied in "S" configuration. It's cheap
and easy.
I put mine on from the get-go on lists recommendation, so I don't know how my
mod 2 would perform without them. Presumably, worse.
RaNDY Frost <jamesrfrost@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RaNDY Frost"
Where could I get these gap seals? I have a 3 that runs out of elevator
too. Should I take some weight out of the nose? On the engine mount there
is this 1.5" pipe with lead shot inside I believe.
Randy of Gainesville, Ga
>From: Aerobatics@aol.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:20 EST
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>msm_9949@yahoo.com writes:
>
>Bradley,
>
>I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at
>"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall"
>landing in
>my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more
>like
>a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at
>first
>until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown.
>Now,
>if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't
>tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good
>for
>that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything
>else.
>
>
>Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me.
>You
>might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare....
>I
>believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy
>Best,
>Dave Patrick KF2
>
>
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
Message 16
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| Subject: | Kitfox Folding Wings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Ironically.. in cruise level flight, the dynamic forces are minimal and
sometimes slightly forward.
The Single Shear on a .3125 Grade 8 is approximately 6979 lbs and on a
.3125 AN is approximately 7286 lbs.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of paul nightingale
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:47 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Folding Wings
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "paul nightingale"
<paul.nightingale@ntlworld.com>
Hi everyone
My names Paul Nightingale I'm pretty new to the list, signed on a few
months ago and really enjoy reading whats going on with you guys but as yet
never needed to ask any questions. First question then i'm in the U.K.
building a Mk 7 still in the early stages had the airplane just a year now,
took a year to get it out of skystar and got screwed for landing gear wheels
or brakes when they went bang. Some friends came over last weekend to see it
and asked me this question. How much pressure is on the leading edge of the
wing in flight and can the pins shear and allow the wings to fold back in
flight - i said no they cant and there is little pressure on the leading
edge but dont no for sure any comments from you guys can this happen ???
Message 17
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| Subject: | Kitfox handling problems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Great ideas. Especially nice to know that many of us have the same issues,
and we all can improve the planes.
I have to agree with all that's been said on this topic. It's well known
that an aft CG will make the elevator sensitive, and a forward CG makes it
mushy. I may go ahead and put my battery in the tail.
I read a study somewhere a long time ago that even a small gap in a control
surface not designed to have one, will reduce the surface effectiveness by
as much as 30%. It also pointed out that gaps did not contribute appreciably
to flutter issues (this was the point of the test, to find flutter causes),
but did greatly increase the authority of the control.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
Randy,
There are alot of different products that are suitable for gap seals.
Check the archives for many discussions on this topic. I used Frost King
weather sealing tape available at most any hardware store up here where it's
cold. Comes clear in 2" width. I cut two strips to length overlapped them by
an inch so there's one sticky side up, one down and applied in "S"
configuration. It's cheap and easy.
I put mine on from the get-go on lists recommendation, so I don't know how
my mod 2 would perform without them. Presumably, worse.
RaNDY Frost <jamesrfrost@hotmail.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RaNDY Frost"
Where could I get these gap seals? I have a 3 that runs out of elevator
too. Should I take some weight out of the nose? On the engine mount there
is this 1.5" pipe with lead shot inside I believe.
Randy of Gainesville, Ga
>From: Aerobatics@aol.com
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:50:20 EST
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:24:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>msm_9949@yahoo.com writes:
>
>Bradley,
>
>I have gap seals on my Model 2 and it still lacks elevator authority at
>"stall" speed. There's really no such thing as a flare or "full stall"
>landing in
>my 2. Not at all like I was used to in Cessnas or even Cubs. It's more
>like
>a "full mush" landing. This resulted in alot of spectacular bounces at
>first
>until someone on the list suggested carring more speed into touchdown.
>Now,
>if I touch down at 45 or so ( indicated) there's no bounce at all. Haven't
>tried using flaps to increase glide angle, slips seem to work pretty good
>for
>that. I though the flaps on Models 1-3 were more for trim than anything
>else.
>
>
>Hi I have a 2 as well, sealing the gaps made a huge difference for me.
>You
>might want to check your CG. Like you I ran out of elevator on flare....
>I
>believe empty my CG is at 27% MAC. you may be just a tad nose heavy
>Best,
>Dave Patrick KF2
>
>
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Graeme,
Medium was what was used on the later Model IV's and the Series 5 through
7. Light fabric will just fall within the loading (psf) parameter. Have
had several discussions about this and decided that at the very least Medium
on the wings.. If your going to be off airport then tail feathers should
most likely be Medium as well.
Personally... at the very least I would use Medium on the wings and tail
feathers... Fuselage.. mixed... I worry more about durability with off
airport operations... so I would most likely stay with Medium...
Just my opinion...
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Graeme Toft
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:18 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fabric weight
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about the
material weight to use. I am told there are several different weight fabrics
and that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone confirm
this for me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful to make
before I close the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close now!!!!!
Cheers
Graeme
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fabric weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
If it's a model IV or earlier and you aren't going over about 125mph
then the lighter weight fabric works fine. It's what I have on Tootie
Mae and it has held up well. Wish I could say the same for my paint
job. If it is one of the bigger, faster, heavier models, then the
medium weight is the ticket. There is no need for the heavy weight
fabric on any Kitfox.
Jerry Liles
Graeme Toft wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
>
>Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about the material
weight to use. I am told there are several different weight fabrics and
that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone confirm this for
me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful to make before I close
the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close now!!!!!
>
>Cheers
>Graeme
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox handling problems Wh wiat! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/11/2006 11:43:31 A.M. Central Standard Time,
bmwebb@cox.net writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Great ideas. Especially nice to know that many of us have the same issues,
and we all can improve the planes.
I have to agree with all that's been said on this topic. It's well known
that an aft CG will make the elevator sensitive, and a forward CG makes it
mushy. I may go ahead and put my battery in the tail.
I read a study somewhere a long time ago that even a small gap in a control
surface not designed to have one, will reduce the surface effectiveness by
as much as 30%. It also pointed out that gaps did not contribute appreciably
to flutter issues (this was the point of the test, to find flutter causes),
but did greatly increase the authority of the control.
Bradley
That's a drastic change! the ratio of nose to tail weight can be as high as
6 to one or more. Adding a 10 lbs battery in tail could be the same as 60
in nose..... you could make the plane tail heavy a very bad thing..........
calculate first!
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: toe in/toe out |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Bradley you ask a good question. I made an attempt to check the alignment
for accuracy's sake this morning, but got erratic results. I tried to use
the magnetic laser pointer against the rotor method suggested, but found
that my laser level beam is not parallel to the magnetic base.
I then tried to find the documents I generated when aligning the tube gear
and failed at that, but found the Tubo Cad drawing I made to digest the
measurements I made when I installed the aluminum spring gear. If you have
Turbo Cad or any of the other drawing programs it is easy to determine
angles simply by drawing the mesurements and asking the program to show the
angles.
I followed the alignment procedures discussed in one of the issues of the
old "Kitfox Times" and bent the tube gear to give a fraction of a degree toe
out. It was with the tube gear that I saw the gear tracking phenomenon
described. It was obvious with the bungee gear as you could see the stretch
of the bungees and the sag of the cross arms when pulling backward and the
opposite forward.
The drawing of the AL gear shows only an unloaded measurement which gives a
toe in of nearly 4 degrees. This after installation and with the airplane
still supported on jacks. I was alarmed at this and contacted Hammerhead -
at the time an offshoot of Grove simlilar to Kitfox spinning off from Avid
and now defunct - and they said the bends in the gear were designed to give
toe in unloaded, but would track parallel or slightly toe out on loading. I
was not totally thrilled with the response as first contact on landing is
with the gear in the fully unloaded position - toed in at 4 degrees. As I
think about it now, this may be the all too frequent brush off comment we
hear, but at the time it tended to satisfy me. And has since as the
tracking on landing is quite benign.
I always had used the method of wheels off and using a square on the axles
to determine data points for determining toe in or out and with the bungee
gear this was possible due to the positive stop with the bungees fully
retracted. With the spring gear, this method won't work as the gear doesn't
have a positive stop, hence my unloaded measurements. I will have to give
this a little thought.
Another method that works with the bungee gear is to put a piece of masking
tape on the rear center of the tire and mark the center of the tire with a
pen. Using a square or laser level transfer that mark to the floor. Do the
same with the other tire. Then push the airplane forward to rotate the tires
so the mark is in the same relative position forward and mark the spots on
the hangar floor, again using the square or laser level. This assumes that
the gear are fully stopped against the fuselage belly for both measurements.
Measuring the distance between the marks will give a quick rough idea of the
alignment and approximate angles can be calculated. Again this won't work
with spring gear due to the tracking phenonemon.
So in short, I don't know what to say about my spring gear. However, I was
very careful with the tube gear alignment as I hadn't flown yet and it was a
topic of discussion on the list and was, as most, somewhat fearful of my new
creation. It did track as described, though, when moving it around the
hanger or ramp. And to be strictly accurate, I don't really have reference
points to accurately describe tracking with the spring gear
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 3:46 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>
> Lowell,
> Did you make a typo here? You described toe-in, and called it toe-out.
> Bradley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 7:15 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> John,
>
> Mine also - wheels out going backward and in going forward and I know for
> sure it is slightly toed out. I put spring gear on as a retrofit and paid
> particular attention to wheel alighnment. I tweeked the tube gear to
> correct a significant toe in before the spring gear installation.
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 12:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
>> <janderson412@hotmail.com>
>>
>> My Series 5 with spring gear seems the same when moving around the hangar
>> but no tendancy to wander in anger. John A.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: toe in/toe out
>> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 04:10:52 +0000
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kerrjohna@comcast.net
>>
>> one more thing to keep the discussion going. Camber = toe in while in
>> the
>> three point position, true?
>>
>> when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling
>> backward
>> causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward. Rolling forward
>> causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling
>> forward. When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any
>> sense
>> of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel
>> then
>> the other.
>>
>> on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get
>> it
>> right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for
>> alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..
>>
>> any thoughts.
>>
>> John Kerr
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt"
>>>
>>>Bradley,
>>>I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't be
>>>achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?
>>>
>>>Lowell
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Bradley M Webb"
>>>To:
>>>Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 4:07 AM
>>>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb"
>>> >
>>> > Interesting. Mine is toed in, and I can see the logic in toe-out. I
>>>don't
>>> > know how hard it is to change. I imagine lots of bending, grunting,
>>> > and
>>> > cursing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> one more thing to keep the discussion going. Camber = toe in while in the
>> three point position, true?
>>
>> when I am moving the plane around, into to the hangar etc, rolling
>> backward
>> causes the wheels to spread....toe out rolling backward. Rolling forward
>> causes the wheels to move in tight against the frame....toe out rolling
>> forward. When I am in the plane landing, taxing etc, I don't get any
>> sense
>> of "darting" one way or the other and I often touch down with one wheel
>> then
>> the other.
>>
>> on the sight picture for straight ahead, my CFI/Cropduster couldn't get
>> it
>> right until I made a mark up by the appropriate "rocker arm" blister for
>> alignment, then there were no more chirps on touch down..
>>
>> any thoughts.
>>
>> John Kerr
>>
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: "Lowell Fitt" lcfitt@sbcglobal.net
>>
>> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <LCFITT@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>>
>> Bradley,
>> I am a strong advocate of toe out (slight) if perfectly parallel can't
>> be
>> achieved. I am curious as to the degree of toe in you have?
>>
>> Lowell
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bradley M Webb" <BMWEBB@COX.NET>
>> To: <KITFOX-LIST@MATRONICS.COM>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 4:07 AM
>> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
>>
>>
>> -- Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <BMWEBB@COX.NET>
>>
>> Interesting. Mine is toed in, and I can see the logic in toe-out. I
>> don't
>> know how hard it is to change. I imagine lots of bending,
>> grunting, and
>> cursing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
>> http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 22
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
The following is a copy of a post sent 2 Jan 1997 to the old
kitfox@lists.Colorado.EDU, by Graham E. Laucht, a name many of the old
timers on the list will remember, and a wonder of knowledge.
The post is in response to the following question:
>Im looking at my wheel alignment (classic 4) and see about 6 inches toe in
>measured at the >elevator.
>How much miss alignment is acceptable and what are the effects besides tire
>wear. I don't want >to start using a crow bar to spring the wheels of it
>isn't necessary.
_____
As a general rule toe in on a taildragger (wheel rims closer together at the
front) is strongly destabilising and therefore toe out (wheels rims further
apart at the front) is less unstable. In simple terms the risks associated
with ground loops etc. are greater with toe in. They still don't go away,
however. The position is different on a trike which in any case is strongly
stable to start with due to the CG being ahead of the main gear.
The actual angles are very much determined by the CG position, it's position
with relationship to the main gear and to the masses disposed about the CG
but again a general rule of thumb between 1 and 2 degrees of total toe out
is desirable but no more. Some types are even set up neutral and some even
assymetric to compensate for P effect. If you have heavier than design
engine installation the book figure may be incorrect. Likewise additional
tail weight, batteries up the back end etc. all conspire to alter the
dynamics and generally call for less easily breaking tailwheels.
Taildraggers that are particularly skittish on the ground can often be found
to have landing gear damage though of course there are other possible
explanations.
One of the main reasons tailwheel locking was employed in large tailwheel
aircraft like the DC3 was to do with amount of mass ahead of the CG as they
offered little corrective restraint from a yaw or skid or from assymetric
power application. Wheel 'em on , wheel 'em off being the motto.
Loose tailwheels, broken or weak steering springs, incorrect castor angle,
saggy springs all contribute to the problem.
NB the effect of one soft tyre on a dragger is exactly the same as toe in,
as I found out the other day, especially when it's on the windward side of
the crosswind. A bystander actually believed I had cleared the active runway
quickly on purpose, little did he know the driver was ten milliseconds
behind his demented supermarket trolley.
-
Graham E. Laucht
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Ailerons retaining water |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dcaofak" <dcaofak@acsalaska.net>
Luis,
When I first noticed this problem on my Model III I drilled #40 holes through the
inboard end of the flaperons as close to the trailing edge as I could get without
damaging the skins. There seems to be a 'channel' at the trailing edge
that allows all of the accumulated water to run downhill to the inboard aft corner.
This hole is virtually unnoticeable and drains well enough, but needs
to be cleaned out every year.
If your Fox is outside over night in freezing temperature, it is essential that
the water be drained before it freezes and damages the trailing edge of the flaperons.
Regards,
John Stoner
KF III, 582
Alaska
Message 24
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| Subject: | Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
flown off, etc, etc....
It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
it's time to celebrate.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fabric weight |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Thanks for the responce guys. I am going with Polyfiber Dave so thanks for
the tip on the user manual. I might stick with the medium Lowell due to the
strips I operate out of. I love this list and might get a chance to meet a
few of you as Im seriously thinking of cashing in my frequent flyer points
with Qantas and going to Oshkosh this year.
Cheers
Graeme
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Liles" <wliles@bayou.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Fabric weight
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
>
> If it's a model IV or earlier and you aren't going over about 125mph
> then the lighter weight fabric works fine. It's what I have on Tootie
> Mae and it has held up well. Wish I could say the same for my paint
> job. If it is one of the bigger, faster, heavier models, then the
> medium weight is the ticket. There is no need for the heavy weight
> fabric on any Kitfox.
> Jerry Liles
>
> Graeme Toft wrote:
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
>>
>>Hi Guys, Im really close to covering my wings and need some advice about
>>the material weight to use. I am told there are several different weight
>>fabrics and that medium is the more commonly used on the fox. Can anyone
>>confirm this for me. Also are there any modifications that would be useful
>>to make before I close the wings up again. Thanks guys, getting close
>>now!!!!!
>>
>>Cheers
>>Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Good onya Lynn. That first flight is close now.
Cheers
Graeme
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 6:39 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
> I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
> project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
> as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
> flown off, etc, etc....
> It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
> since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
> for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
> it's time to celebrate.
>
> Lynn
> Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Mar 11, 2006, at 9:39 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> They tell me that I now have an airplane!
Congrats, Lynn! You experience something I -who bought a second-hand
Kitfox - never have or will! May your TAFs always be CAVOK and the blue
side, up!
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox handling problems Wh wiat! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Graeme Toft" <msm@byterocky.net>
Just on the subject of gaps between control surfaces such as verticle
stabilisers and rudders, Colin Drury (is on the list) has a great solution
for this problem. He could probably be convinced to put some photos up on
Sportflight to show the detail.
Cheers
Graeme
----- Original Message -----
From: <Aerobatics@aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 4:10 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems Wh wiat!
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
>
> In a message dated 3/11/2006 11:43:31 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> bmwebb@cox.net writes:
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>
> Great ideas. Especially nice to know that many of us have the same
> issues,
> and we all can improve the planes.
>
> I have to agree with all that's been said on this topic. It's well known
> that an aft CG will make the elevator sensitive, and a forward CG makes
> it
> mushy. I may go ahead and put my battery in the tail.
>
> I read a study somewhere a long time ago that even a small gap in a
> control
> surface not designed to have one, will reduce the surface effectiveness
> by
> as much as 30%. It also pointed out that gaps did not contribute
> appreciably
> to flutter issues (this was the point of the test, to find flutter
> causes),
> but did greatly increase the authority of the control.
>
> Bradley
>
>
> That's a drastic change! the ratio of nose to tail weight can be as high
> as
> 6 to one or more. Adding a 10 lbs battery in tail could be the same as
> 60
> in nose..... you could make the plane tail heavy a very bad
> thing..........
> calculate first!
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
Congratulations. It is a great feeling. It is odd how anti climatic it
can be. One day you go to the shop and there just is nothing left to do.
It feels great, but then you get that nagging feeling you need to build
on a plane. Then you get to thinking what if ----. Life is good, and
these airplanes add some spice to it. Pictures, I want pictures.
Great accomplishment, something to be very proud of.
Alan
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
>I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
>project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
>as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
>flown off, etc, etc....
>It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
>since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
>for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
>it's time to celebrate.
>
>Lynn
>Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Congrats Lynn, that's two of us as I have JUST received mine!! Great feeling
after 7 years a fun, toil and every emotion one could name. First flight in
a few days, just when I get my first day off and a nice day all in one. John
A. Series 5 TD
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
flown off, etc, etc....
It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
it's time to celebrate.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
Need a new job? Check out XtraMSN Careers http://xtramsn.co.nz/careers
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Fred Shiple <fredshiple@sbcglobal.net>
Congratulations Lynn!
Fred
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Can anyone tell me what the maximum static rpm should be for a Rotax 582 in
a Kitfox lll. Also top rpm on take off?
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net writes:
Can anyone tell me what the maximum static rpm should be for a Rotax 582 in
a Kitfox lll. Also top rpm on take off?
I turn 6,500 at 55 MPH during climb out...... I talked to Lockwood.... a
fine Rotax outfit, they say I should be at 6,700 and see a big increase in
power.... I have to tell ya... it scoots at 6,500..........
Good luck
Dave KF2 582 Blue Head E Box
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
Way to go Lynn.
You started after me. And I'm just hanging the engine. You really made good
time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
> I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
> project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
> as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
> flown off, etc, etc....
> It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
> since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
> for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
> it's time to celebrate.
>
> Lynn
> Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Kitfox handling problems |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" <eccles@chartermi.net>
on the model V if the aircraft is nose heavy you will run out of elevator
with the flaps on in which case i would get the CG more in the center of the
envelope. I'm not sure on the earlier models as i know you trim with the
flaps
Steve
0-200
series V
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bradley M
Webb
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:55 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
As far as the bouncing goes, keep the tire pressure very low on large tires.
Mine has about 4-5 psi, and it has no tendency to bounce, unless I miss the
3 point attitude, and the tail drops at touchdown. My tires are ATV knobbys,
if that makes a difference.
I don't think I've yet hit the tail wheel first.
An interesting thing about my 2: With flaps deployed, it really steepens the
approach angel. It is much more noticeable than the Cessna's. but in the
flare, I don't have enough elevator authority to do a 3-point landing. I'm
thinking of getting gap seals to help it.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Malcolmbru@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox handling problems
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com
I have a KF2 and haven't flown it yet. I have almost 500 HR in two kolbs.
I have flown a cgs hawk and a Golden Circle T. Bird all tail draggers but
non have what I would call having a tendency to ground loop. I saw a guy
turn
off an asphalt runway so hard and abrupt he blew the tire on a kolb and it
just kept turning fine. I put 11-22 tires w/ 8 in rims on the kit fox and
am
a little worried about bouncing on landing. I herd 3 point is the best. I
often landed the kolb tail wheel first. Really dragging it in.
An old cub pilot told me to make sure you shake the plane from side to
side to take the load off the gear as a post flight inspection this helps
save the bungies and sometimes you can see it go from toe out to toe in.
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
You need to check the accuracy of your tach first. My Westach is off by
300rpm at the high end and it varies with temperature. I check it
everytime I fly with an optical tach. You can easily be over revving
the engine or not producing all the power you are entitled too. Once
you are certain of the tach's accuracy then follow Lockwoods
recommendations. They know what they are talking about. I like 6500
static for my climb prop, and a bit less for the cruise prop and use
6700 rpms as max. Cruise is any where from 5800 to 6000 rpms depending
on my mood.
Jerry Liles
Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net writes:
>
>Can anyone tell me what the maximum static rpm should be for a Rotax 582 in
>a Kitfox lll. Also top rpm on take off?
>
>
>I turn 6,500 at 55 MPH during climb out...... I talked to Lockwood.... a
>fine Rotax outfit, they say I should be at 6,700 and see a big increase in
>power.... I have to tell ya... it scoots at 6,500..........
>
>Good luck
>
>Dave KF2 582 Blue Head E Box
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" <donpearsall@comcast.net>
Congratulations Lynn! Way to go! Now let hear a flight report when you get
her in the air.
Don Pearsall
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:39 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
flown off, etc, etc....
It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
it's time to celebrate.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" <spaghettiohead@hotmail.com>
If you have a GSC prop, I believe they say no more than 6200 static...I
don't think I've ever been below that myself, however :)
Andrew
>From: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 - Static RPM
>Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:26:07 -0600
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jerry Liles <wliles@bayou.com>
>
>You need to check the accuracy of your tach first. My Westach is off by
>300rpm at the high end and it varies with temperature. I check it
>everytime I fly with an optical tach. You can easily be over revving
>the engine or not producing all the power you are entitled too. Once
>you are certain of the tach's accuracy then follow Lockwoods
>recommendations. They know what they are talking about. I like 6500
>static for my climb prop, and a bit less for the cruise prop and use
>6700 rpms as max. Cruise is any where from 5800 to 6000 rpms depending
>on my mood.
>
>Jerry Liles
>
>Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
>
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 3/11/2006 6:11:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> >f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net writes:
> >
> >Can anyone tell me what the maximum static rpm should be for a Rotax 582
>in
> >a Kitfox lll. Also top rpm on take off?
> >
> >
> >I turn 6,500 at 55 MPH during climb out...... I talked to Lockwood....
>a
> >fine Rotax outfit, they say I should be at 6,700 and see a big increase
>in
> >power.... I have to tell ya... it scoots at 6,500..........
> >
> >Good luck
> >
> >Dave KF2 582 Blue Head E Box
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Great News Lynn!
Be safe and enjoy and keep us informed.
Randy
Do not archive.
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
flown off, etc, etc....
It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
it's time to celebrate.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Donna and Roger McConnell" <rdmac@swbell.net>
Congrats Lynn and welcome to true airplane ownership. Now get that bird in
the air. My first flight was really a none event. I look forward to hearing
about yours. I have close to 5 hours on my ride now. Getting more
comfortable with every landing.
All the Best
Roger Mac
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Got my Airworthiness Certificate!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
They tell me that I now have an airplane! I just got my AC, and now
I'm a real airplane owner, not a project owner. It'll still be a
project, but I'm that much closer to having something to fly...as soon
as I get done with flight instruction, that is...and get the 40 hrs
flown off, etc, etc....
It's only been 18 and a half months, but it seems like an eternity
since I drove to Texas and picked up this project, and now it's ready
for test flying. One of these days I'll clean up the shop, but for now
it's time to celebrate.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Got my Airworthiness Certificate! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Thanks Brett and all...
Yeah I started after you, but I seem to recall that you have a job and
other time-consuming obligations, which I don't have, so I was able to
"give it a go" for big stretches of time at a time. Now it's time to go
after that Sport Pilot rating with great gusto so I can fly a few of
the mandated 40 hrs off myself, instead of watching someone else do
that.
Funny part about getting the AC though....the DAR says that because it
is now an airplane, I can't legally work on it, or make entries in the
log book regarding maintenance, until after the 40 is flown off, and I
have then turned in my maintenance paperwork, and in so doing, acquire
the permit to maintain it....strange, ain't it....I build the damn
thing, and now I can't work on it!...legally.
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
On Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 08:17 PM, Brett Walmsley wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
>
> Way to go Lynn.
> You started after me. And I'm just hanging the engine. You really made
> good
> time.
>
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com
I just talked to GSC and they told me 6200 max for there prop but I don't
know why. You can adjust it for cruse verse speed. I have been worried about
my 3to1 gear ratio Ebox and a 3 blade prop any thought on that?
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:13:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,
Malcolmbru@aol.com writes:
I just talked to GSC and they told me 6200 max for there prop but I don't
know why. You can adjust it for cruse verse speed. I have been worried
about
my 3to1 gear ratio Ebox and a 3 blade prop any thought on that?
well yes at 6,200 your way down on HP. I used to be at 6,200 went to 6,500
wow, huge difference... and these two strokes like to spin... less
internal stress...believe it or not... I was told.,on a KF 1,2,3 regardless of
prop gears etc, you need 55 MPH climb at 6,700 WOT 1,100 EGT on a 582....
now, 503, that's different depends on 1 or 2 carbs..... in fact LOWER RPM
than the 582.... I am told the 582 has different timing and is more efficient
due to rotary valve.
Personally, I feel its one fine 2 stroke.
Now GSC may have its own limit on prop and I would abide by that, but your
losing a lot of power... been there had a GSC ............ the wood was easy
to nick.... just a personal choice....
you can adjust prop.... been there too. BUT personally, I would adjust to
6,500 to 6,700 WOT 55 mph and cruise will be fine... if you add pitch you
might get off the pipe...been there too very scarey.
Now if you have in flight, different story.....
I have about 225 hrs on a 503 and 300 ish on a 582, I have tried all kinds
of combo, remember this is NOT a 4 stroke, its a tuned 2 stroke ....big
difference. they are very peaky
Dont take my word, call Lockwood.... or similar.......
The only warning I can give you is NOT to over pitch a 2 stroke, I went from
1,500 feet per min to 500 once when I thought more pitch meant more speed
and efficiency .... wrong..
Enjoy....
Dave
Message 44
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| Subject: | Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Most of you are talking about rpm at cruise. What should be the max rpm tied
to the ground? Static rpm?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Aerobatics@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 - Static RPM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:13:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,
Malcolmbru@aol.com writes:
I just talked to GSC and they told me 6200 max for there prop but I don't
know why. You can adjust it for cruse verse speed. I have been worried
about
my 3to1 gear ratio Ebox and a 3 blade prop any thought on that?
well yes at 6,200 your way down on HP. I used to be at 6,200 went to 6,500
wow, huge difference... and these two strokes like to spin... less
internal stress...believe it or not... I was told.,on a KF 1,2,3
regardless of
prop gears etc, you need 55 MPH climb at 6,700 WOT 1,100 EGT on a 582....
now, 503, that's different depends on 1 or 2 carbs..... in fact LOWER RPM
than the 582.... I am told the 582 has different timing and is more
efficient
due to rotary valve.
Personally, I feel its one fine 2 stroke.
Now GSC may have its own limit on prop and I would abide by that, but your
losing a lot of power... been there had a GSC ............ the wood was
easy
to nick.... just a personal choice....
you can adjust prop.... been there too. BUT personally, I would adjust to
6,500 to 6,700 WOT 55 mph and cruise will be fine... if you add pitch you
might get off the pipe...been there too very scarey.
Now if you have in flight, different story.....
I have about 225 hrs on a 503 and 300 ish on a 582, I have tried all kinds
of combo, remember this is NOT a 4 stroke, its a tuned 2 stroke ....big
difference. they are very peaky
Dont take my word, call Lockwood.... or similar.......
The only warning I can give you is NOT to over pitch a 2 stroke, I went
from
1,500 feet per min to 500 once when I thought more pitch meant more speed
and efficiency .... wrong..
Enjoy....
Dave
--
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 - Static RPM |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 3/11/2006 9:50:01 P.M. Central Standard Time,
f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net writes:
Most of you are talking about rpm at cruise. What should be the max rpm tied
to the ground? Static rpm?
Not at Cruise WOT in Best Climb speed.
I never have tied my plane down and Run it a WOT. Initial RPM on TO roll is
a bit over 6,000 and quickly climbs as plane accelerates.
Message 46
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| Subject: | 912UL coming out of storage |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "clemwehner" <clemwehner@sbcglobal.net>
I've had a 912UL sitting in my garage for 9 years in basically the
condition it came to me from the factory. My garage is air conditioned
as part of the house and the humidity here in Oklahoma is usually less
than 45 % dropping to 20-30 % during the winter months.
I have begun work to finish the last 20% of my Kitfox IV construction
and need to know what I should do to the engine.
Does it need to go to a Rotax service center for teardown, or is it
likely to be OK to use as is?
Also, do I need to replace all the hoses that were put on it back then
(fuel, water, oil)?
Anyone with experience like this?
Thanks for the advice,
Clem
Lawton, Oklahoma
KF IV-1050, 912UL
On this list daily since 1993
Message 47
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
The DAR is wrong. You can do all the work except the annual inspection
which is not due for a year until you get your repairman's certificate.
I can't believe he would tell you that nonsense. Call EAA, they can give
you chapter and verse. That is of course if it is experimental amateur
built. I am sure someone on the list will jump in with the FAR's. I will
in the AM if no one else has.
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
>Thanks Brett and all...
>
>Yeah I started after you, but I seem to recall that you have a job and
>other time-consuming obligations, which I don't have, so I was able to
>"give it a go" for big stretches of time at a time. Now it's time to go
>after that Sport Pilot rating with great gusto so I can fly a few of
>the mandated 40 hrs off myself, instead of watching someone else do
>that.
>
>Funny part about getting the AC though....the DAR says that because it
>is now an airplane, I can't legally work on it, or make entries in the
>log book regarding maintenance, until after the 40 is flown off, and I
>have then turned in my maintenance paperwork, and in so doing, acquire
>the permit to maintain it....strange, ain't it....I build the damn
>thing, and now I can't work on it!...legally.
>
>Lynn
>Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
>
>On Saturday, March 11, 2006, at 08:17 PM, Brett Walmsley wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brett Walmsley" <n93hj@numail.org>
>>
>>Way to go Lynn.
>>You started after me. And I'm just hanging the engine. You really made
>>good
>>time.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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