Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:21 AM - Re: Rotec Radial Engine (Fox5flyer)
2. 04:55 AM - Re: Middle Georgia? (W Duke)
3. 05:27 AM - Re: Rotec Radial Engine (wingnut)
4. 09:28 AM - Re: static port location on Series 6 (Michael Gibbs)
5. 10:08 AM - Re: GPS altitude. (Michel Verheughe)
6. 10:11 AM - GPS Elevation Readings (Jim Crowder)
7. 10:37 AM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Michel Verheughe)
8. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: Rotec Radial Engine & CG (Matt Teixeira)
9. 01:17 PM - Re: GPS altitude. (Bradley M Webb)
10. 02:41 PM - Sailing (Michel Verheughe)
11. 02:47 PM - Mod. IV Flaperon (Bob Robertson)
12. 04:13 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (Ronald K. Stevens)
13. 04:15 PM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Paul Wilson)
14. 04:27 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (Frank Miles)
15. 05:24 PM - retorque (fred leinberger)
16. 06:18 PM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Jim Crowder)
17. 09:25 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (wingsdown)
18. 11:45 PM - SV: Sailing (Michel Verheughe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotec Radial Engine |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I couldn't make the link below work, however here's the link to the web site
for everything you need to know. I'm sure with some surfing the mpg can be
found.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotec Radial Engine
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley" <taildragon@msn.com>
>
>
> Here is the link:
>
>
www.rotecradialengines.com/clips/startup.mpg<http://www.rotecradialengines.c
om/clips/startup.mpg>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marco Menezes<mailto:msm_9949@yahoo.com>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotec Radial Engine
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke <n981ms@yahoo.com>
I have never jumped either. I can't say whether I will or will not. This thing
this weekend is a HUGE once a year event. I think they had 300 jumpers last
year. They were trying to set the State record for the largest formation. Last
year they had two Cassuts and a Caravan that flew non stop on Saturday. Really
non stop. Also had a helicopter. The airport turned into a little parachute
village.
Incidentally the distance is about 39 nm.
Maxwell
Bradley M Webb <bmwebb@cox.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb"
Fantastic! I'd love to shoot over and chat. I hear the Dublin guys jumping
all the time on the radio. Never did it myself, but maybe someday.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of W Duke
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Middle Georgia?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke
Bradley,
I was at KPXE Saturday a couple of weeks ago with our S6. I got a brief
look at your Fox. If you are ever over near Dublin (KDBN), give me a call
478 689 4942. Our airplane is based at KDBN now but if I can get my hangar
finished I will move it to
32 degrees 22.85 N
83 degrees 03.50 W
You are welcome to land there any time. Almost exactly halfway between
KDBN and KEZM. 2000 ft long appr east west runway next to a pond. Arch
building near one end
Also there will be some big time parachute activity in Dublin this weekend
if you would like to come watch. I expect to be at the airport most of the
day Saturday.
Maxwell Duke
do not archive
Bradley M Webb wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb"
That's exactly where I am. I'm based out at Perry, KPXE.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Logan
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Middle Georgia?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michael Logan"
Bradley,
Where in Middle Georgia are you located? I grew up in Warner Robins and get
back there a couple of times a year. It can get hot and steamy for long
periods of time in the summer.
Mike Logan
Series 5
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: [Off-topic] Today's flight
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb"
Well, you can feel even more jealous...a balmy 80 degrees and calm here in
Middle Georgia. As soon as I finish this note, I'm off to the airport to log
some time.
All but you, Michel. I wish our landscape was as gorgeous as that.
And take heart, Lowell. I miss the occasional snowball fight with the kids.
Bradley
---------------------------------
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
Maxwell Duke
S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotec Radial Engine |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
The rotec site has a page listing all known projects, complete and otherwise: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customerprojects.htm
They have links to info on two complete kitfoxes, a model 4 and a model 5. The
model 5 has a detailed writeup.
Rotec used to list the price for the 2800 right on the main page. Looks like they
took it off. I wonder if the price went up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=21882#21882
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: static port location on Series 6 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Bradley sez:
>...our GPS reading is significantly off from indicated (by a couple
>thousand feet). Now that you mention it, I think it is due to
>setting 29.92 at 18K'. Hence the GPS would be actual, and the
>altimeter would be relative.
Michel is right about GPS altitude errors, even with selective
availability turned off. GPS altitude is based on a computer model
of the earth's shape, not your actual distance from the dirt, and can
be off considerably. Long-term testing of a GPS unit at a particular
location will not reveal errors in the earth-model.
Although GPS is a 3-dimensional positioning system, the altitude
component does not have the same accuracy that lateral position has.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: GPS altitude. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Mar 14, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote:
> Yes, I've heard that too. But was that when the U.S. Military degraded
> the
> GPS signal? It's no longer degraded, and should be within 10 meters (?)
> accuracy, IIRC.
Ah, I remember it as if it was yesterday, Bradley. The 1st of May 2000
(or was it 1st April?), when on the TV, we saw President Clinton
saying that the Selective Availability (SA) was removed from the GPS
system. A great day for all navigators.
> Based on the way GPS works, that error is in all 3 dimensions, not just
> altitude. GPS doesn't know or care which dimension you're in.
>
As Mike points out, I understand that the latitude, longitude position
is more accurate than the elevation. It seems to make sense if you
imagine satellites moving in orbit and the angle the make with the
earth. The greater the angle, the better the accuracy of the cocked
hat. When I sailed, in the days of the sextant, I would take a morning
sight, giving a line of position close to a meridian, then a noon sight
(much easier) giving my latitude. The two lines (the morning one
reported by my dead-reckoning) were crossing at a right angle and gave
a fairly accurate position - if about 5 NM can be said accurate! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 6
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| Subject: | GPS Elevation Readings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
I have a Garmin that is WAAS enabled. I may not be spelling that
correctly. It is remarkably accurate. It will consistently show my
sail boat in my slip. However, it will also show me to be about 50'
above sea level while on the sea in Hawaii. The tides are very small
in Hawaii, so that is not the cause. It must be the earth
model. Also, I remove it and use it in my motor home on the
mainland, and whenever I cross a pass where an elevation sign is
provided, I will be right on. That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is
the greatest error I ever remember noting. This is over a three year period.
Jim Crowder
At 10:25 AM 3/15/2006, you wrote:
>Michel is right about GPS altitude errors, even with selective
>availability turned off. GPS altitude is based on a computer model
>of the earth's shape, not your actual distance from the dirt, and can
>be off considerably. Long-term testing of a GPS unit at a particular
>location will not reveal errors in the earth-model.
>
>Although GPS is a 3-dimensional positioning system, the altitude
>component does not have the same accuracy that lateral position has.
>
>Mike G.
>N728KF
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Elevation Readings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:10 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is the greatest error I ever
> remember noting.
That is an error in the geoidal height (a.k.a geoidal separation), Jim,
i.e. the difference between the ellipsoid the calculation is made on,
and the correction for the actual elevation of the MSL. Compared to the
ellipsoid, the sea level varies all around the world. Your GPS has a
worldwide correction look-up table that is coarse to accommodate the
memory chips it is stored on. Say that the table gives a correction by
one by one degree of latitude and longitude, within these 60 NM wide
tiles, the geoidal height may vary as much as the 50 feet you are
talking about.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotec Radial Engine & CG |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Matt Teixeira" <mteixeira@wmlylesco.com>
In my desire to learn more about the Model IV and CG...
Can anyone comment as to whether the Rotec 2800 would land within the
Model IV CG without weight in the tail? If so, could it just be a well
placed battery installation?
The Rotec website lists the engine at a dry weight of 225# including the
starter, alternator, and Bing Carb. The CG of the engine is listed (I'm
adding 2" to remove the rear accessories) at 5" from CG to mount plate,
8.7" from mount plate to back of carb, and 2" of finger room to firewall
equaling 15.7" from firewall to 225# of CG - no prop.
How does this compare to a Subaru with a redrive? Thanks.
Matt K4-1200
Fresno, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:22 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec Radial Engine
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
The rotec site has a page listing all known projects, complete and
otherwise: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customerprojects.htm
They have links to info on two complete kitfoxes, a model 4 and a model
5. The model 5 has a detailed writeup.
Rotec used to list the price for the 2800 right on the main page. Looks
like they took it off. I wonder if the price went up.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=21882#21882
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
The link I sent says the same. Altitude is not calculated the same as
lat/long. Interesting.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS altitude.
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Mar 14, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote:
> Yes, I've heard that too. But was that when the U.S. Military degraded
> the
> GPS signal? It's no longer degraded, and should be within 10 meters (?)
> accuracy, IIRC.
Ah, I remember it as if it was yesterday, Bradley. The 1st of May 2000
(or was it 1st April?), when on the TV, we saw President Clinton
saying that the Selective Availability (SA) was removed from the GPS
system. A great day for all navigators.
> Based on the way GPS works, that error is in all 3 dimensions, not just
> altitude. GPS doesn't know or care which dimension you're in.
>
As Mike points out, I understand that the latitude, longitude position
is more accurate than the elevation. It seems to make sense if you
imagine satellites moving in orbit and the angle the make with the
earth. The greater the angle, the better the accuracy of the cocked
hat. When I sailed, in the days of the sextant, I would take a morning
sight, giving a line of position close to a meridian, then a noon sight
(much easier) giving my latitude. The two lines (the morning one
reported by my dead-reckoning) were crossing at a right angle and gave
a fairly accurate position - if about 5 NM can be said accurate! :-)
Cheers,
Michel
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
This is off the list, Richard, not to post too much off-topic to the
Kitfox builders.
On Mar 14, 2006, at 5:34 AM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers"
> <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Michel wrote:
>> On Mar 13, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Richard Rabbers wrote:
>>
>> 1936? That's funny, Richard! I owned a 25 feet Cornish gaff-rigged
>> cutter
>
>
> Nice boat Michel! - flying / sailing is a good mix.
Indeed. The same planning, weather considerations, navigation and the
greatness of nature. ... although flying goes a little faster! :-)
> She's a canoe stern double ender, copper riveted iroko on oak.
A double ender, typical of Scandinavia. My present boat is also a
double ender. Here she is as she goes in the water for the season. The
fjords freeze during the winter and all boats are on land from
Christmas to Easter.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 11
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| Subject: | Mod. IV Flaperon |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" <aerocontrols@clearwave.ca>
Hi all,
Need a bit of info from the list.
Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ?
Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!!
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
Message 12
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| Subject: | Mod. IV Flaperon |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens" <rkstevens@verizon.net>
I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive
answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless John
has them, I don't know of another source.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
<aerocontrols@clearwave.ca>
Hi all,
Need a bit of info from the list.
Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ?
Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!!
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Elevation Readings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul Wilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Michel & Jim,
Here is what I understand about GPS accuracy. Please correct me if I have
it muddled.
What Michel said is correct, You get different altitude accuracy depending
on where on earth you are located. But take note of the impact on the
difference in satellite location. For example for an altitude calculation
if one is in a location where the horizon is not visible - say in a canyon
- then the angle between the satellites is less so the accuracy is not as
good as it would be if the visible satellites would be on opposite
horizons. However, with regard to X-Y calculations overhead satellites give
adequate accuracy. In boats and planes the horizon is visible (with regard
to the RF transmission) so this is much less a factor and the accuracy is
mostly dependent on the distance of the satellite above the horizon and
whether WAAS satellites are visible. This explains why the altitude varies
while you have not changed your physical altitude - like when you are
parked or driving along slowly on a flat road. BTW I get only a 10'-20'
elevation error on the northern part of the sea of Cortez.
WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) involves additional satellites
funded by the US government and is used to enhance coordinates including
elevation. This enhancement as always depends on where these specialized
satellites are located in the sky. I get WAAS accuracy even here in Baja.
Of course WAAS is not complete so the availability is intermittent. Your
GPS should have a setting to give you an alarm when WAAS is not available.
One more thing in case you want to compare GPS readings with a map is that
you must set your GPS to have the correct map datum which should be "NAD27
CONUS" for the US & Mexico to match our topos.The default for my two
different brands of GPS is "WGS84"="NAD83". Want to see how much of a
change is there between the two datum just switch back and forth and see
the result. I noticed that one has to wait longer to get accurate altitude
readings than to get X-Y readings - so be patient. This is especially
noticeable when sitting on a known bench mark on top of a mountain. Some
times I have waited 10-15 minutes before I got the GPS to agree with the
real elevation. Once more I am sure is has to do with the location of the
satellites as well as a slower calculation algorithm.
Note for accurate altitude the GPS antenna has to be able to see both
horizons. So in a boat, plane or auto does the GPS have to look thru
structure or humans? Is your antenna above all things that can affect the
horizontal view? Does your GPS even have a remote antenna to allow good or
better placement?
What all this means to a pilot is you had better plan on at least a 50'
error for altitude.
Jim, if you don't like the altitude error where you are located, just put a
correction into your GPS. Works just fine until you get to a different look
up location as Michel explained. That GPS feature is designed for just that
purpose.
Regards, Paul
==================
At 10:34 AM 3/15/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
>On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:10 PM, Jim Crowder wrote:
>
> > That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is the greatest error I ever
> > remember noting.
>
>That is an error in the geoidal height (a.k.a geoidal separation), Jim,
>i.e. the difference between the ellipsoid the calculation is made on,
>and the correction for the actual elevation of the MSL. Compared to the
>ellipsoid, the sea level varies all around the world. Your GPS has a
>worldwide correction look-up table that is coarse to accommodate the
>memory chips it is stored on. Say that the table gives a correction by
>one by one degree of latitude and longitude, within these 60 NM wide
>tiles, the geoidal height may vary as much as the 50 feet you are
>talking about.
>
>Cheers,
>Michel
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Mod. IV Flaperon |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
It looks like Skystar is back up and running.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald K.
Stevens
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens"
<rkstevens@verizon.net>
I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive
answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless John
has them, I don't know of another source.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
<aerocontrols@clearwave.ca>
Hi all,
Need a bit of info from the list.
Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ?
Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!!
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
--
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fred leinberger" <farmers4@verizon.net>
what is the proper way to retorque gasketed parts like heads and parts that use
any type of gasket sealer like case halves? props seem easy as one can just loosen
everything and start over .hopefully Bob Robertson can jump in on this
one.
thanks
Pete
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: GPS Elevation Readings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder <jimlc@att.net>
The error is no big deal as on the boat I know what my elevation
is. When I use it in my motor home, I have never detected a
noticeable error, not that I don't think there has not been
one. It's better than any altimeter I have ever used. My previous
GPSs were not that accurate. The Garmin I am talking about updates
very quickly when it can see the sky. I updates so quickly, as I
turn the motor home the course up screen rotates with the turn.
Jim Crowder
At 05:13 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote:
>Jim, if you don't like the altitude error where you are located, just put a
>correction into your GPS. Works just fine until you get to a different look
>up location as Michel explained. That GPS feature is designed for just that
>purpose.
> Regards, Paul
Message 17
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| Subject: | Mod. IV Flaperon |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
If they are the same I have two, used and in great shape. In my hangar
CNO, chino California.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald K.
Stevens
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens"
--> <rkstevens@verizon.net>
I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive
answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless
John has them, I don't know of another source.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Robertson
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson"
<aerocontrols@clearwave.ca>
Hi all,
Need a bit of info from the list.
Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ?
Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!!
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> From: Michel Verheughe [michel@online.no]
> This is off the list, Richard, not to post too much off-topic to the
> Kitfox builders.
Oops! Stupid me did it again! It was meant directly to Richard. Sorry, guys!
Cheers,
Michel
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