---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/15/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:21 AM - Re: Rotec Radial Engine (Fox5flyer) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: Middle Georgia? (W Duke) 3. 05:27 AM - Re: Rotec Radial Engine (wingnut) 4. 09:28 AM - Re: static port location on Series 6 (Michael Gibbs) 5. 10:08 AM - Re: GPS altitude. (Michel Verheughe) 6. 10:11 AM - GPS Elevation Readings (Jim Crowder) 7. 10:37 AM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Michel Verheughe) 8. 11:07 AM - Re: Re: Rotec Radial Engine & CG (Matt Teixeira) 9. 01:17 PM - Re: GPS altitude. (Bradley M Webb) 10. 02:41 PM - Sailing (Michel Verheughe) 11. 02:47 PM - Mod. IV Flaperon (Bob Robertson) 12. 04:13 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (Ronald K. Stevens) 13. 04:15 PM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Paul Wilson) 14. 04:27 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (Frank Miles) 15. 05:24 PM - retorque (fred leinberger) 16. 06:18 PM - Re: GPS Elevation Readings (Jim Crowder) 17. 09:25 PM - Re: Mod. IV Flaperon (wingsdown) 18. 11:45 PM - SV: Sailing (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:39 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotec Radial Engine --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I couldn't make the link below work, however here's the link to the web site for everything you need to know. I'm sure with some surfing the mpg can be found. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Standley" Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:42 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotec Radial Engine > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Roger Standley" > > > Here is the link: > > www.rotecradialengines.com/clips/startup.mpg > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Marco Menezes > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotec Radial Engine ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:22 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Middle Georgia? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke I have never jumped either. I can't say whether I will or will not. This thing this weekend is a HUGE once a year event. I think they had 300 jumpers last year. They were trying to set the State record for the largest formation. Last year they had two Cassuts and a Caravan that flew non stop on Saturday. Really non stop. Also had a helicopter. The airport turned into a little parachute village. Incidentally the distance is about 39 nm. Maxwell Bradley M Webb wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" Fantastic! I'd love to shoot over and chat. I hear the Dublin guys jumping all the time on the radio. Never did it myself, but maybe someday. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of W Duke Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 4:43 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Middle Georgia? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke Bradley, I was at KPXE Saturday a couple of weeks ago with our S6. I got a brief look at your Fox. If you are ever over near Dublin (KDBN), give me a call 478 689 4942. Our airplane is based at KDBN now but if I can get my hangar finished I will move it to 32 degrees 22.85 N 83 degrees 03.50 W You are welcome to land there any time. Almost exactly halfway between KDBN and KEZM. 2000 ft long appr east west runway next to a pond. Arch building near one end Also there will be some big time parachute activity in Dublin this weekend if you would like to come watch. I expect to be at the airport most of the day Saturday. Maxwell Duke do not archive Bradley M Webb wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" That's exactly where I am. I'm based out at Perry, KPXE. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Logan Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:19 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Middle Georgia? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michael Logan" Bradley, Where in Middle Georgia are you located? I grew up in Warner Robins and get back there a couple of times a year. It can get hot and steamy for long periods of time in the summer. Mike Logan Series 5 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bradley M Webb Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 3:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: [Off-topic] Today's flight --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" Well, you can feel even more jealous...a balmy 80 degrees and calm here in Middle Georgia. As soon as I finish this note, I'm off to the airport to log some time. All but you, Michel. I wish our landscape was as gorgeous as that. And take heart, Lowell. I miss the occasional snowball fight with the kids. Bradley --------------------------------- Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Maxwell Duke S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing --------------------------------- Brings words and photos together (easily) with ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec Radial Engine From: "wingnut" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" The rotec site has a page listing all known projects, complete and otherwise: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customerprojects.htm They have links to info on two complete kitfoxes, a model 4 and a model 5. The model 5 has a detailed writeup. Rotec used to list the price for the 2800 right on the main page. Looks like they took it off. I wonder if the price went up. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=21882#21882 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:54 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: static port location on Series 6 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Bradley sez: >...our GPS reading is significantly off from indicated (by a couple >thousand feet). Now that you mention it, I think it is due to >setting 29.92 at 18K'. Hence the GPS would be actual, and the >altimeter would be relative. Michel is right about GPS altitude errors, even with selective availability turned off. GPS altitude is based on a computer model of the earth's shape, not your actual distance from the dirt, and can be off considerably. Long-term testing of a GPS unit at a particular location will not reveal errors in the earth-model. Although GPS is a 3-dimensional positioning system, the altitude component does not have the same accuracy that lateral position has. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:15 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS altitude. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Mar 14, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote: > Yes, I've heard that too. But was that when the U.S. Military degraded > the > GPS signal? It's no longer degraded, and should be within 10 meters (?) > accuracy, IIRC. Ah, I remember it as if it was yesterday, Bradley. The 1st of May 2000 (or was it 1st April?), when on the TV, we saw President Clinton saying that the Selective Availability (SA) was removed from the GPS system. A great day for all navigators. > Based on the way GPS works, that error is in all 3 dimensions, not just > altitude. GPS doesn't know or care which dimension you're in. > As Mike points out, I understand that the latitude, longitude position is more accurate than the elevation. It seems to make sense if you imagine satellites moving in orbit and the angle the make with the earth. The greater the angle, the better the accuracy of the cocked hat. When I sailed, in the days of the sextant, I would take a morning sight, giving a line of position close to a meridian, then a noon sight (much easier) giving my latitude. The two lines (the morning one reported by my dead-reckoning) were crossing at a right angle and gave a fairly accurate position - if about 5 NM can be said accurate! :-) Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:27 AM PST US From: Jim Crowder Subject: Kitfox-List: GPS Elevation Readings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder I have a Garmin that is WAAS enabled. I may not be spelling that correctly. It is remarkably accurate. It will consistently show my sail boat in my slip. However, it will also show me to be about 50' above sea level while on the sea in Hawaii. The tides are very small in Hawaii, so that is not the cause. It must be the earth model. Also, I remove it and use it in my motor home on the mainland, and whenever I cross a pass where an elevation sign is provided, I will be right on. That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is the greatest error I ever remember noting. This is over a three year period. Jim Crowder At 10:25 AM 3/15/2006, you wrote: >Michel is right about GPS altitude errors, even with selective >availability turned off. GPS altitude is based on a computer model >of the earth's shape, not your actual distance from the dirt, and can >be off considerably. Long-term testing of a GPS unit at a particular >location will not reveal errors in the earth-model. > >Although GPS is a 3-dimensional positioning system, the altitude >component does not have the same accuracy that lateral position has. > >Mike G. >N728KF ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:07 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Elevation Readings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:10 PM, Jim Crowder wrote: > That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is the greatest error I ever > remember noting. That is an error in the geoidal height (a.k.a geoidal separation), Jim, i.e. the difference between the ellipsoid the calculation is made on, and the correction for the actual elevation of the MSL. Compared to the ellipsoid, the sea level varies all around the world. Your GPS has a worldwide correction look-up table that is coarse to accommodate the memory chips it is stored on. Say that the table gives a correction by one by one degree of latitude and longitude, within these 60 NM wide tiles, the geoidal height may vary as much as the 50 feet you are talking about. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec Radial Engine & CG From: "Matt Teixeira" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Matt Teixeira" In my desire to learn more about the Model IV and CG... Can anyone comment as to whether the Rotec 2800 would land within the Model IV CG without weight in the tail? If so, could it just be a well placed battery installation? The Rotec website lists the engine at a dry weight of 225# including the starter, alternator, and Bing Carb. The CG of the engine is listed (I'm adding 2" to remove the rear accessories) at 5" from CG to mount plate, 8.7" from mount plate to back of carb, and 2" of finger room to firewall equaling 15.7" from firewall to 225# of CG - no prop. How does this compare to a Subaru with a redrive? Thanks. Matt K4-1200 Fresno, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:22 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotec Radial Engine --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" The rotec site has a page listing all known projects, complete and otherwise: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/customerprojects.htm They have links to info on two complete kitfoxes, a model 4 and a model 5. The model 5 has a detailed writeup. Rotec used to list the price for the 2800 right on the main page. Looks like they took it off. I wonder if the price went up. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=21882#21882 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:17:45 PM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS altitude. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" The link I sent says the same. Altitude is not calculated the same as lat/long. Interesting. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS altitude. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Mar 14, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote: > Yes, I've heard that too. But was that when the U.S. Military degraded > the > GPS signal? It's no longer degraded, and should be within 10 meters (?) > accuracy, IIRC. Ah, I remember it as if it was yesterday, Bradley. The 1st of May 2000 (or was it 1st April?), when on the TV, we saw President Clinton saying that the Selective Availability (SA) was removed from the GPS system. A great day for all navigators. > Based on the way GPS works, that error is in all 3 dimensions, not just > altitude. GPS doesn't know or care which dimension you're in. > As Mike points out, I understand that the latitude, longitude position is more accurate than the elevation. It seems to make sense if you imagine satellites moving in orbit and the angle the make with the earth. The greater the angle, the better the accuracy of the cocked hat. When I sailed, in the days of the sextant, I would take a morning sight, giving a line of position close to a meridian, then a noon sight (much easier) giving my latitude. The two lines (the morning one reported by my dead-reckoning) were crossing at a right angle and gave a fairly accurate position - if about 5 NM can be said accurate! :-) Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:16 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Sailing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe This is off the list, Richard, not to post too much off-topic to the Kitfox builders. On Mar 14, 2006, at 5:34 AM, Richard Rabbers wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" > > > > Michel wrote: >> On Mar 13, 2006, at 4:40 PM, Richard Rabbers wrote: >> >> 1936? That's funny, Richard! I owned a 25 feet Cornish gaff-rigged >> cutter > > > Nice boat Michel! - flying / sailing is a good mix. Indeed. The same planning, weather considerations, navigation and the greatness of nature. ... although flying goes a little faster! :-) > She's a canoe stern double ender, copper riveted iroko on oak. A double ender, typical of Scandinavia. My present boat is also a double ender. Here she is as she goes in the water for the season. The fjords freeze during the winter and all boats are on land from Christmas to Easter. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:10 PM PST US From: "Bob Robertson" Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi all, Need a bit of info from the list. Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ? Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!! regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:58 PM PST US From: "Ronald K. Stevens" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens" I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless John has them, I don't know of another source. Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi all, Need a bit of info from the list. Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ? Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!! regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:16 PM PST US From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Elevation Readings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Paul Wilson Michel & Jim, Here is what I understand about GPS accuracy. Please correct me if I have it muddled. What Michel said is correct, You get different altitude accuracy depending on where on earth you are located. But take note of the impact on the difference in satellite location. For example for an altitude calculation if one is in a location where the horizon is not visible - say in a canyon - then the angle between the satellites is less so the accuracy is not as good as it would be if the visible satellites would be on opposite horizons. However, with regard to X-Y calculations overhead satellites give adequate accuracy. In boats and planes the horizon is visible (with regard to the RF transmission) so this is much less a factor and the accuracy is mostly dependent on the distance of the satellite above the horizon and whether WAAS satellites are visible. This explains why the altitude varies while you have not changed your physical altitude - like when you are parked or driving along slowly on a flat road. BTW I get only a 10'-20' elevation error on the northern part of the sea of Cortez. WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) involves additional satellites funded by the US government and is used to enhance coordinates including elevation. This enhancement as always depends on where these specialized satellites are located in the sky. I get WAAS accuracy even here in Baja. Of course WAAS is not complete so the availability is intermittent. Your GPS should have a setting to give you an alarm when WAAS is not available. One more thing in case you want to compare GPS readings with a map is that you must set your GPS to have the correct map datum which should be "NAD27 CONUS" for the US & Mexico to match our topos.The default for my two different brands of GPS is "WGS84"="NAD83". Want to see how much of a change is there between the two datum just switch back and forth and see the result. I noticed that one has to wait longer to get accurate altitude readings than to get X-Y readings - so be patient. This is especially noticeable when sitting on a known bench mark on top of a mountain. Some times I have waited 10-15 minutes before I got the GPS to agree with the real elevation. Once more I am sure is has to do with the location of the satellites as well as a slower calculation algorithm. Note for accurate altitude the GPS antenna has to be able to see both horizons. So in a boat, plane or auto does the GPS have to look thru structure or humans? Is your antenna above all things that can affect the horizontal view? Does your GPS even have a remote antenna to allow good or better placement? What all this means to a pilot is you had better plan on at least a 50' error for altitude. Jim, if you don't like the altitude error where you are located, just put a correction into your GPS. Works just fine until you get to a different look up location as Michel explained. That GPS feature is designed for just that purpose. Regards, Paul ================== At 10:34 AM 3/15/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > >On Mar 15, 2006, at 7:10 PM, Jim Crowder wrote: > > > That 50' elevation error in Hawaii is the greatest error I ever > > remember noting. > >That is an error in the geoidal height (a.k.a geoidal separation), Jim, >i.e. the difference between the ellipsoid the calculation is made on, >and the correction for the actual elevation of the MSL. Compared to the >ellipsoid, the sea level varies all around the world. Your GPS has a >worldwide correction look-up table that is coarse to accommodate the >memory chips it is stored on. Say that the table gives a correction by >one by one degree of latitude and longitude, within these 60 NM wide >tiles, the geoidal height may vary as much as the 50 feet you are >talking about. > >Cheers, >Michel > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:17 PM PST US From: "Frank Miles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Frank Miles" It looks like Skystar is back up and running. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald K. Stevens Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens" I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless John has them, I don't know of another source. Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi all, Need a bit of info from the list. Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ? Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!! regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net -- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:31 PM PST US From: "fred leinberger" Subject: Kitfox-List: retorque --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fred leinberger" what is the proper way to retorque gasketed parts like heads and parts that use any type of gasket sealer like case halves? props seem easy as one can just loosen everything and start over .hopefully Bob Robertson can jump in on this one. thanks Pete ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:32 PM PST US From: Jim Crowder Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: GPS Elevation Readings --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Crowder The error is no big deal as on the boat I know what my elevation is. When I use it in my motor home, I have never detected a noticeable error, not that I don't think there has not been one. It's better than any altimeter I have ever used. My previous GPSs were not that accurate. The Garmin I am talking about updates very quickly when it can see the sky. I updates so quickly, as I turn the motor home the course up screen rotates with the turn. Jim Crowder At 05:13 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote: >Jim, if you don't like the altitude error where you are located, just put a >correction into your GPS. Works just fine until you get to a different look >up location as Michel explained. That GPS feature is designed for just that >purpose. > Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:35 PM PST US From: "wingsdown" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" If they are the same I have two, used and in great shape. In my hangar CNO, chino California. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ronald K. Stevens Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:12 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ronald K. Stevens" --> I believe they are the same, but maybe John McBean has a more definitive answer. The real question is...where are you going to buy one? Unless John has them, I don't know of another source. Ron -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Robertson Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Mod. IV Flaperon --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Robertson" Hi all, Need a bit of info from the list. Are the flaperons on the Mod. IV the same as those on the Mod. V ? Thanks for getting back to us in short order as we need to order one!!! regards Bob Robertson Light Engine Services Ltd. Rotax Service Center Aero Control Enterprises, Inc. St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8 Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164 Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE) www.rtx-av-engines.ca www.aerocontrols.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:30 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Sailing --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > From: Michel Verheughe [michel@online.no] > This is off the list, Richard, not to post too much off-topic to the > Kitfox builders. Oops! Stupid me did it again! It was meant directly to Richard. Sorry, guys! Cheers, Michel do not archive