Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:23 AM - Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? (Don Smythe)
2. 08:35 AM - Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? (Marco Menezes)
3. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? (wwillyard@AOL.COM)
4. 08:53 AM - Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? (Joel Mapes)
5. 09:27 AM - Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? (N53dw@aol.com)
6. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? (Lynn Matteson)
7. 07:34 PM - Top Gun Dave (Ron Liebmann)
8. 08:13 PM - Re: Top Gun Dave (Aerobatics@AOL.COM)
9. 08:52 PM - Re: Top Gun Dave (James Shumaker)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
This always reminds me of a story I've mentioned before. I used to work in
Submarine Torpedo systems. The torpedo tubes are 21" in dia. and close to
2" thick with outer muzzle doors that are held shut with 3000# of hydraulic
on large pistons. Every time there was work performed on the tubes, it was
required to do an internal hydro to check for leaks. Air pressure over 5
PSI would cause the outer doors to creep open "against" the 3000# holding
them shut. Pressure is an awesome thing and would hate to see what 5 PSI
would do to a drum. I pressurized my glass fuel tanks and header with
"MOUTH" pressure only and you could see the tanks bulge.
I think the only type pump that would be somewhat safe is a small hand
pump similar to blowing up basketballs.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Shumaker" <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Pressurized fuel filling tanks?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker
> <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
>
> DOES ANYBODY SEE A PROBLEM WITH PRESSURIZING A GAS TANK TO FORCE FUEL INTO
> AN AIRCRAFT????!!!
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Marco Menezes <msm_9949@yahoo.com>
I have sometimes used a Goat Throat hand pump to fill my tanks. It fits snuggly
atop the fuel container and has a plunger that will pressurize the tank to 3-6
psi. This is enough pressure to force fuel up about 9' above its level in the
container. When you're done, a relief valve on the side depressurizes quickly
and safely. Sadly, it takes alot of pumping to maintain enough pressure to pump
my tanks full, so I've stopped using it even tho it's safe and clean. But
my point is, I don't see why fuel can't safely be transferred from a tank temporarily
pressurized at very low pressures, provided it is depressurized when
not actively pumping.
James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net> wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted
by: James Shumaker
DOES ANYBODY SEE A PROBLEM WITH PRESSURIZING A GAS TANK TO FORCE FUEL INTO AN AIRCRAFT????!!!
I certainly have several problems with this method and none of them have good outcomes.
1) Any leak in the container will force out fuel and/or volatile mixtures of gas
air until the pressure is relieved. That could be the whole 55 gallons or whatever.
2) The leak will not manifest itself when you are actually at the tank and can
take care of it.
3) No mention of relieving the pressure was mentioned. If there were such a relief
the air gas mixture would probably be at an ignitable ratio and of a much
larger volume than normal unpressurized venting.
4) How do you monitor the pressure in the tank. Without a fail-safe system the
potential for overpressure is great. The risk of an overpressure include, leaks,
rupture and explosion.
5) In the case of an overpressure without rupture there is a real possibility of
spontaneous combustion. Worst case is a shop air compressor connected to the
tank to add a couple pounds of pressure. The cell phone rings and a minutes distraction
allows the nearly full tank to reach compressor tank pressure. That
is about 125 psi right? 10 to 1 compression in a cylinder would mean 147 pounds
of pressure so we are close to a pressure where diesel engines operate without
spark plugs. Phone call means the flight is canceled. Turn off the compressor
and leave. Now the tank is going to bake in the sun during the day and raise
the pressure a little higher. It won't take much to touch this off. Did I mention
this is a 55 gallon non certified barrel. The lid didn't quite seal so
a gasket was added to keep in that little 5 pound pressure. But now the lid is
not well grounded to the barrel and the little spark that jumps from the spout
handle finds an easy path to jump INSI
DE the
barrel...and we have ignition!!!
Has that actually happened? well...maybe not the cell phone part....but it is fun
to think about and the dangers are very real. Pretty unrealistic anyways because
a 55 gallon barrel would probably burst from that much pressure....and then
ignite.
And yes I AM an Electrician and Yes THIS STUFF ABOUT TANKS CERTIFIED FOR HAZARDOUS
ATMOSPHERES, PRESSURIZED FUEL TANKS AND PROPER GROUNDING IS IN THE CODES BECAUSE
IT IS DANGEROUS.
Jim Shumaker
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: wwillyard@aol.com
I simply used a small air pressure regulator in conjunction with my air compressor.
I chose to use the drum in the vertical mode on a dolly, so I had to fabricate
a dip tube to pick up fuel near the bottom of the drum. I used an automotive
fuel filter at the outlet of the drum to eliminate any dirt that may be picked
up as a result of transporting fuel in 6 gal. cans. I applied the air to
the smaller tapped opening in the top of the drum. I would seal the drum tightly
between fuellings to keep the fuel fresher. I used this to my advantage and
bought fuel when the price was down (fuel prices are very volatile in West Michigan
- 10 to 15 cent per gallon per day change is not unusual.) Also with this
method I only had to lift the cans as high as the drum which is much easier
for me than pouring directly into the tank and saves the mess of fuel running
over the wing from an overfill. I also followed safe grounding procedures including
a ground connection at the dispensing valve a
t the end of the hose.
Bill W.
-----Original Message-----
From: wingnut <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
Sent: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:05:56 -0800
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How do you refuel your kitfox?
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
You use air pressure to pump the gas? That sounds like a winner. What is your
air presure source and how do you hook it up? Maybe I can use this technique
with this tank that I found on ebay. Anyone know of a downside to this
approach?
> I also used a 55 gal. drum and applied 5 psi of air pressure to dispense fuel.
That way I could see when the tank was full and close the valve on the supply
hose.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=25632#25632
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pressurized fuel filling tanks? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Joel Mapes" <foxfloatflyer@hotmail.com>
I owned a '59 straight tail 172 with an autogas STC. For several years I
fueled from a 22 gallon drum that had a pickup tube to within a 1/2 inch of
the bottom of the drum and a tire stem without core on the top. I used a
small vibrator compressor with a regulator set at 5 psi and dispensed the
fuel through a gas station style fuel hose and nozzle. The nozzle was
grounded to the drum, which was grounded to my van, which I grounded to the
plane and hanger. The system worked well and there was never evidence of air
in the dispensed fuel. I also have a pump rescued from an old gas station
pump. It has a return path to relieve over pressure and to allow continuous
flow for cooling. There is more evidence of mixing of the fuel with this
commercial pump than with the air driven system.
Joel
Model 5 nearing completion
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: N53dw@aol.com
I'm surprised no one mentioned the Syphon Mate. It works great. Just park
the gas can up on the wing, give the hose a couple of jiggles, and go do the
rest of your preflight. Just make sure there's room in your tank for the
whole can.
Danny Williamson
Pride, LA
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How do you refuel your kitfox? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I did a continuity check and found .5 ohm (one-half ohm) between the
tank neck (where my bonding strap is soldered on), and the exhaust
pipe. With a jumper cable clamped onto the exhaust pipe and then onto a
pipe that is driven into the hangar floor (dirt floor....pipe is for
holding hangar doors closed) the reading between tank neck and dirt
floor is 5.something ohms...that is, less than 6 ohms.
That seems to me to be adequate for carrying the "bad stuff" to
ground...am I right? (My main source for all things electrical, Duane,
is off playing with his 'fox today, so out of the loop for a direct
answer....anybody else want to chime in?)
Lynn
Kitfox IV...Jabiru 2200
On Saturday, April 1, 2006, at 08:08 AM, mscotter wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "mscotter" <mscotter@comcast.net>
>
>
> I think a continuity check would be well advised to confirm your
> ground path
> Lynn. I work around solvents quite often in my work and we often have
> to go
> to extensive lengths to ground and bond everything, but it is better
> than
> the alternative. And yes, more than once I have had someone check
> with a
> meter to make sure we had good continuity rather than just assuming.
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Hey Dave Patrick.......I just saw the Top Gun program on the DIY TV
network..............You were fantastic!!!!! And to think that we are
Kitfox buddies makes me proud....
Ron N55KF
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Top Gun Dave |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Aerobatics@aol.com
In a message dated 4/2/2006 9:36:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
rliebmann@comcast.net writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" <rliebmann@comcast.net>
Hey Dave Patrick.......I just saw the Top Gun program on the DIY TV
network..............You were fantastic!!!!! And to think that we are
Kitfox buddies makes me proud....
Ron N55KF
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Wow really? Thanks! I never saw it , honest, LOL I heard about it.... of
course I remember the interview and know Chris fairly .... will have to see
it some day.
In fact, I will be flying the Warrior 2 to Top Gun on the 23 to 30 but cant
compete as plane is not ready. Will observe the competition, enjoy the sun and
fly RC every day to great ready for this seasons demonstrations...
Thanks for the kind words...
And will be flying the KF soon as weather breaks!
Dave
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Top Gun Dave |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Lynn
6 ohms is plenty low. In fact anything below 100 ohms is fine. Because the
voltage (think pressure) must be very high in order to get a spark to jump a gap
(normal static sparks are on the order of 10,000 volts) high resistances can
drain off the charge before enough voltage builds up. Where you need to be
careful is that you use a semiconducting funnel or a metal fuel spout when pouring
into the tank. When the fuel falls into the tank and the little drops seperate
from the main stream they each carry a charge which can build up a differential
potential (another way of saying voltage). Thus if you had an insulating
funnel then the charge differential would be between the planes fuel tank
and the filling can. A conducting funnel has a high resitance that lets the
charge leak slowly back to the can.
Jim Shumaker
Ron Liebmann <rliebmann@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann"
Hey Dave Patrick.......I just saw the Top Gun program on the DIY TV
network..............You were fantastic!!!!! And to think that we are
Kitfox buddies makes me proud....
Ron N55KF
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|