Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:15 AM - SV: Bungee turns (Michel Verheughe)
2. 01:05 AM - Re: osh camping (David Steade)
3. 03:53 AM - Re: Osh Camping (W Duke)
4. 06:14 AM - Kitfox Aircraft llc at OSH (phil@lakercustom.com)
5. 08:04 AM - Rudder pedal reinforcement (Dill Family)
6. 08:26 AM - KF IV Wing Spar reinforcing rings (Colin Durey)
7. 08:29 AM - Wing types KF IV (Colin Durey)
8. 09:54 AM - Re: osh camping (John King)
9. 10:18 AM - Re: Soob temps (kurt schrader)
10. 10:27 AM - Re: Soob temps (Rob Stapleton)
11. 11:12 AM - Re: Rudder pedal reinforcement (Bradley M Webb)
12. 12:18 PM - Matronics BBS Forums (Matt Dralle)
13. 12:29 PM - Re: Rudder pedal reinforcement (Paul Seehafer)
14. 12:38 PM - Re: osh camping (Paul Seehafer)
15. 01:49 PM - Re: Bungee turns (eccles)
16. 02:15 PM - Re: Wing types KF IV (Torgeir Mortensen)
17. 02:19 PM - Re: Bungee turns (Michel Verheughe)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: Soob temps (wingsdown)
19. 04:02 PM - Re: Soob temps (John Anderson)
20. 05:24 PM - Re: Rudder pedal reinforcement (Lowell Fitt)
21. 07:47 PM - Re: Bungee turns (Dave)
Message 1
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Dear Mr Goguen and Dr Durey,
Thank you for your email. I will consider the matter thouroughly.
Dear Doctor, I regret to inform you that since my husband read your email, he is
now in great pain after falling off his chair, laughing like an idiot. He sends
his regards and says that the pain was worth the good laugh.
Cordially,
Mrs Britt Verheughe
Message 2
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Steade" <steade@btinternet.com>
Gary
I'm building a Mk 7 in the UK. They are a little thin on the ground over
here with only one flying. I am visiting Oshkosh this year and would
quite like to see yours. Is there any opportunity ?
Regards
David Steade
E-mail steade@btinternet.com
Message 3
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: W Duke <n981ms@yahoo.com>
You can ship some of your cargo in and pick it up on site also. The EAA site probably
has the specifics. We did it one year and it worked fine. Next time
I would have some sort of cart to roll the box though. It was about 2 miles from
the post office to our campsite.
Maxwell
kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
A few years ago I came across a couple at OSH camping
next to their small 2 seater. I looked and they had
very limited cargo space, so I asked.
They were there for a whole week from NY. Yes, it
only carried 40 lbs, 20 for the camping gear and 10
for each of them.
I told the guy that if he has a woman who can camp for
a week on 10 lbs, he better keep her! That got a
knowing smile from her.
Kurt S.
Do not archive
--- kirk hull wrote:
> I was thinking about going to Osh this year i the
> new kitfox and was
> wondering about the camping area. Is i posible to
> have a car bring up the
> camping gear ( as te kitfox will not hold it )and
> drop it off in the
> aircraft camping area? I would like to camp next to
> the plane but dont want
> to pack all the gear in by hand. me wife does not
> understand how to pack light.
__________________________________________________
---------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kitfox Aircraft llc at OSH |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: phil@lakercustom.com
Hi David
Kitfox Aircraft LLC will be at Oshkosh this year, and a model 7
will be in our display area. We are trying to get a row for
the Foxes to be together. EAA tells us if we can get some early
arrivals in a row, the parking crew will tend to keep the same
types together. Looking forward to see all of you.
Phil Laker
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Steade" <steade@btinternet.com>
>
> Gary
>
> I'm building a Mk 7 in the UK. They are a little thin on the ground over
> here with only one flying. I am visiting Oshkosh this year and would
> quite like to see yours. Is there any opportunity ?
>
> Regards
>
> David Steade
>
> E-mail steade@btinternet.com
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rudder pedal reinforcement |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" <Dillfamily@sbcglobal.net>
I am interested in installing the rudder pedal reinforcement kit
referenced in Service letter #47 for my M2. I would like to fabricate it
myself, is it similar to the one referenced for the vixen in SB# 38? The
Skystar kit from 1995 had a part number 35015.000. Does anybody have any
illustrations from that kit that I might be able to use to fabricate?
Jeffrey Dill, M2
_______I_______
\ -(_)- /
0 ' 0
Message 6
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| Subject: | KF IV Wing Spar reinforcing rings |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" <colin@ptclhk.com>
Amongst the bits that came with the part-finished KF IV kit that I bought
was a set of steel rings ( about 1 inch wide). In a note that was in with
the various loose bits of paper that also came with it, was one which
described them as being "wing spar reinforcing rings". It mentioned that
these were to prevent/minimise any elongation that might occur in the spar
attach pin/bolt holes. It seems that these were forwarded to the original
builder after the kit was first supplied.
Does anyone have detailed informnation on how these are to be installed,
and if, indeed, they are needed?
I am also interested in anyone's experience in covering the top of the
instrument panel and the area behind it. I have a thin, fibreglass
moulding which is obviously intended to fit there, but have no information
on how it is supposed to be fitted, and how it interfaces with the bottom
edge of the windscreen (if at all). I have come up with a few ideas of how
to do it myself, but would like to know what others have done.
There was another question I wanted to ask, but as its 1:30am (Sydney
time) it seems to have slipped out of my mind.
Regards
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073 (M)
+61-2-945466162 (F)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Wing types KF IV |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" <colin@ptclhk.com>
Typical, just clicked on the send button and then remembered what I meant
to ask in the last email...
I have noted comments on thenlist re the different wings types that were
available for the KF IV (and probably the 5, etc), namely 1050lb and
1200lb (?).
What is the difference between the two, and how to I tell what type I have
in my kit? ( I bought it part finished, and can't find any reference to
which one it is in either the manual, or the Skystar documentation. The
kit was originally shipped in mid 1994.
Regards
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073 (M)
+61-2-945466162 (F)
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King <kingjohne@adelphia.net>
Kirk,
I am flying from Virginia to Oshkosh in my Series 6 on July 26th and staying at
the University of Wisconsin dorms. Ray Gignac is flying with me in his Model
IV. We plan to return on the morning of the 30th.
--
John King
Warrenton, VA
kirk hull wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@sbcglobal.net>
>
>I was also thinking about a weather backup. if it gets bad out I can land
>and put the plane on the trailer. Im not sure how long it takes to get to
>Osh from kansas city but i hope to find out this year.
>
>Are any other kitfoxs going and where are they staying at?
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
I read the LOP info long ago before I had a plane to
use it on, so I need to re-read it and get up to
speed. Thanks for reminding me.
The liquid cooled limit you gave makes me feel better
about my excursions above 1450. Though I dont intend
to go there again, it will probably happen and it is
good to have an engine that gives me some slack.
But no Fox flying again for awhile. I am in Panama
and headed south. Please keep the items I requested
handy and Ill pay for them when I get back.
At least I can keep up with the list down here when
the net is up. Today it is down at the hotel, so I am
at a realtors house using dialup.... You do what you
have to. :-)
Kurt S.
....An air cooled engine is limited to
> approximately 1550 to 1600 F., whereas a liquid
> engine can go as high as 1725 for short bursts."
>
> Rick
__________________________________________________
Message 10
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rob Stapleton" <foto@alaska.net>
There should be no need to take a two-cyle engine above 1150 F if you are
using in-flight mixture control.
I seized a 582 due to a water cooling issue (the radiator, slung under the
craft, was full of sand from a sandbar landing and caused over heating) and
I was able to keep the EGT at 1050 my adjusting the mixture inflight. Only
one cylinder was scored and the rest of engine looked like new despite the
over heating coolant issue.
I replaced the pistons and bored 1 over stock spec. The engine has 114 hours
on it since and runs fine.
Rob
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt schrader
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Soob temps
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
I read the LOP info long ago before I had a plane to
use it on, so I need to re-read it and get up to
speed. Thanks for reminding me.
The liquid cooled limit you gave makes me feel better
about my excursions above 1450. Though I dont intend
to go there again, it will probably happen and it is
good to have an engine that gives me some slack.
But no Fox flying again for awhile. I am in Panama
and headed south. Please keep the items I requested
handy and Ill pay for them when I get back.
At least I can keep up with the list down here when
the net is up. Today it is down at the hotel, so I am
at a realtors house using dialup.... You do what you
have to. :-)
Kurt S.
....An air cooled engine is limited to
> approximately 1550 to 1600 F., whereas a liquid
> engine can go as high as 1725 for short bursts."
>
> Rick
__________________________________________________
Message 11
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| Subject: | Rudder pedal reinforcement |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
I just took my rudder tubes to a local welder, and he added small triangles
to them. It's really easy and simple. No major engineering effort, just beef
up the joint.
Bradley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dill Family
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:01 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder pedal reinforcement
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" <Dillfamily@sbcglobal.net>
I am interested in installing the rudder pedal reinforcement kit
referenced in Service letter #47 for my M2. I would like to fabricate it
myself, is it similar to the one referenced for the vixen in SB# 38? The
Skystar kit from 1995 had a part number 35015.000. Does anybody have any
illustrations from that kit that I might be able to use to fabricate?
Jeffrey Dill, M2
_______I_______
\ -(_)- /
0 ' 0
Message 12
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| Subject: | Matronics BBS Forums |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Hello Listers,
I just wanted to send out a reminder to all of the Listers regarding the new-ish
BBS (Bulletin Board System) Forums that are available at Matronics for the Email
Lists. The BBS Forums give you Web-based access into the same email content
that is generated by the Email Lists. When an email message is posted to
any of the email lists, a copy of the message is also copied to the respective
List forum section on in the BBS Forums. By the same token, when a message is
posted within the BBS Forum interface context, it will also be posted to the
respective email list.
Basically, the BBS Forums give you yet another method of accessing the Matronics
Email List content. Some people prefer email, some prefer web forums; now you
can have it either way or both with the Matronics Lists!
You'll have to register for a login/password on the BBS Forum to _post_ from the
BBS, but you can view message content without registering for an account. To
Register for an account, look for the link at the top of the main BBS Forum
page entitled "Register". Click on it and follow the instructions. Site Administrator
approval will be required (to keep spammers out), but I will try to
get these approved in less than 24 hours.
If you haven't yet taken a look at the Matronics Email List content over on the
BBS Forum, surf on over and take a peek. Its pretty cool. The URL is:
http://forums.matronics.com
I want to stress that the BBS Forums are simply an adjunct to the existing Matronics
Email Lists; another way of viewing and interacting with the Matronics List
content. If you like Email, great. If you like Web Forums, great. If you
like both, great. Its up to you how you view and create your content.
You will also find a URL link at the bottom of this email called Matronics List
Features Navigator. You can click on this link at any time to find URL links
to all of the other great features available on the Matronics site like the Archive
Search Engine, List Browse, List Download, FAQs, Wiki, and lots more.
There is a specific Navigator for each Email List and the link for this specific
List is shown below.
Thanks for all the great list participation and support; it is greatly appreciated!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder pedal reinforcement |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Bradley,
Make sure to reinforce the top of the tube also where the cable hooks to the
pedal. A friend with a Model IV Speedster recently had his break. He's
very lucky he didn't have a serious accident.
Paul Seehafer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:08 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Rudder pedal reinforcement
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
>
> I just took my rudder tubes to a local welder, and he added small
> triangles
> to them. It's really easy and simple. No major engineering effort, just
> beef
> up the joint.
>
> Bradley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dill Family
> Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 11:01 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder pedal reinforcement
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family"
> <Dillfamily@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I am interested in installing the rudder pedal reinforcement kit
> referenced in Service letter #47 for my M2. I would like to fabricate it
> myself, is it similar to the one referenced for the vixen in SB# 38? The
> Skystar kit from 1995 had a part number 35015.000. Does anybody have any
> illustrations from that kit that I might be able to use to fabricate?
>
> Jeffrey Dill, M2
>
>
> _______I_______
> \ -(_)- /
> 0 ' 0
>
>
>
Message 14
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
All,
I thought I should mention also that we usually will have a few kitfoxes at
the Oshkosh Seaplane base too. If I can arrange getting it from home
during the week (I have a truck and camper load of stuff I need to get there
first), I will probably also have my newly completed Model IV amphib there
as well. We offer pontoon boat tours of the mooring harbor so you can see
all the seaplanes. And if you find the owner of the plane that you might
want to see closer, we can arrange a boat to take you out to it, or bring it
to the dock for a closer inspection.
I haven't looked lately, but we might even have some Kitfox pics on our
website (www.oshkoshseaplanebase.com) in the photos section. If you like
seaplanes, check it out...
Paul Seehafer
Chairman, AirVenture
Seaplane Base
(and Kitfox IV owner)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Steade" <steade@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 3:03 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: osh camping
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David Steade" <steade@btinternet.com>
>
> Gary
>
> I'm building a Mk 7 in the UK. They are a little thin on the ground over
> here with only one flying. I am visiting Oshkosh this year and would
> quite like to see yours. Is there any opportunity ?
>
> Regards
>
> David Steade
>
> E-mail steade@btinternet.com
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" <eccles@chartermi.net>
about these shock cords ,, My series V manual says 8 wraps on the P/N
63003.101 bungee cords , i know for a fact that on mine 7 wraps were not
enough to keep it from sagging and eight worked fine . and 8 wraps were very
difficult to achieve ( at least for me ), good luck with the wrap session
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Colin Durey
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bungee turns
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" <colin@ptclhk.com>
Dear Mrs Verheughe,
I have consulted a number of colleagues regarding Michel's sagging
condition, and the consensus of opinion is, that the condition, usually
found in males, relates specifically to his corpus avion.
Typically, this condition occurs when insufficient stimulation of this
part occurs, or occurs at irregular intervals, such that it's performance
degrades over time. While mechanical intervention may be indicated in
extreme cases, a simple remedy first to be applied is, to correct the
lack/irregularity of use.
Reference to the literature indicates that, the active and positive
support of one's spouse has a direct and positive effect on outcomes. His
recovery may be immeasurably enhanced by your personally
encouraging/inviting him to more, and regular use of his flight skills.
Regards
Dr. Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073 (M)
+61-2-945466162 (F)
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On May 21, 2006, at 6:46 PM, Bradley M Webb wrote:
>> BTW, I've got 5 wraps.
>
> ... and I have got 6 wraps. My bungees are 7/16" thick and 55" long,
> unstretched, from eye to eye. After 13 years, they are sagging a bit.
> So, I went to buy some bungee cord and made myself a pair of new ones.
> Alas, bungees don't come only in different thickness but also strength,
> or rather, resistance to stretch. The new ones were way to soft!
> So, I put back the old one on and ... it's ok for the time being.
> Interestingly enough, they only sag when I am not flying for a while.
> The moral of the story is: I have to fly more. Please could you send an
> email to my wife, telling her I have to fly more? Thanks in advance!
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Wing types KF IV |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Collin,
Model IV 1050 was from serial number 1400 through 1722.
Model IV 1200 is from serial number 1723 and on.
Torgeir.
For more details, see this link:
http://www.sportplanellc.com/model_iv.htm
On Tue, 23 May 2006 01:29:07 +1000 (EST), Colin Durey <colin@ptclhk.com>
wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Colin Durey" <colin@ptclhk.com>
>
> Typical, just clicked on the send button and then remembered what I meant
> to ask in the last email...
>
> I have noted comments on thenlist re the different wings types that were
> available for the KF IV (and probably the 5, etc), namely 1050lb and
> 1200lb (?).
>
> What is the difference between the two, and how to I tell what type I
> have
> in my kit? ( I bought it part finished, and can't find any reference to
> which one it is in either the manual, or the Skystar documentation. The
> kit was originally shipped in mid 1994.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Colin Durey
> Sydney
> +61-418-677073 (M)
> +61-2-945466162 (F)
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee turns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On May 22, 2006, at 10:45 PM, eccles wrote:
> about these shock cords ,, My series V manual says 8 wraps on the P/N
> 63003.101 bungee cords
Yes, I did the mistake to forget mentioning that I had a model 3. I
guess the model V is heavier and needs more turns. In any case, the
model 3 is certainly not meant to have more than six because there is
already very little place for six turns and if I had to add a couple,
they would have to be on the top of others, and that is not wise, is
it?
And I agree, it takes two strong men to pull the bungee to a fit around
the bars, one under and one from the inside.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Already set aside my friend, not a problem. Does your room have the same
hot and cold running water I did, hot,cold,hot,cold,hot,cold, but still
better than the tent showers :). Stay cool.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Soob temps
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
--> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
I read the LOP info long ago before I had a plane to
use it on, so I need to re-read it and get up to
speed. Thanks for reminding me.
The liquid cooled limit you gave makes me feel better
about my excursions above 1450. Though I dont intend
to go there again, it will probably happen and it is
good to have an engine that gives me some slack.
But no Fox flying again for awhile. I am in Panama
and headed south. Please keep the items I requested
handy and Ill pay for them when I get back.
At least I can keep up with the list down here when
the net is up. Today it is down at the hotel, so I am
at a realtors house using dialup.... You do what you
have to. :-)
Kurt S.
....An air cooled engine is limited to
> approximately 1550 to 1600 F., whereas a liquid
> engine can go as high as 1725 for short bursts."
>
> Rick
__________________________________________________
Message 19
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Well, my radiator exit cowl didn't last long(2hours), it split in two! No
harm done, a vibration set up and got worse, I was just about to look for
some where to put down (plenty of good ag strips in my area) when there was
a slight bump and it went smooth. I was scanning the engine instruments and
all looked ok thinking the worst like spinner, prop, drive belt etc. Then my
safety plane buddy called up and told me that the cowl was hanging down but
landed ok and no damage done. I'm amazed at the amount of turbulence that
there must be in the area behind the cowl as it was constructed out of .040"
aviation grade alclad and had a doubler riveted across the bottom too. Two
LAMEs checked it...Test flown without it and temps still ok (for winter
anyway) Thinking of adding some VGs along the bottom of the main cowl? John
A.
_________________________________________________________________
Need a new job? Check out XtraMSN Careers http://xtramsn.co.nz/careers
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder pedal reinforcement |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Jeffrey,
I did the mod, but of my own design. It essentially triples the welded
area.
Go to:
http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=view&epoch=973467724
For a picture. I used the same tubing as used in the original weldment. I
found a certified welder to weld it up for me.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dill Family" <Dillfamily@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:01 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder pedal reinforcement
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family"
> <Dillfamily@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I am interested in installing the rudder pedal reinforcement kit
> referenced in Service letter #47 for my M2. I would like to fabricate it
> myself, is it similar to the one referenced for the vixen in SB# 38? The
> Skystar kit from 1995 had a part number 35015.000. Does anybody have any
> illustrations from that kit that I might be able to use to fabricate?
>
> Jeffrey Dill, M2
>
>
> _______I_______
> \ -(_)- /
> 0 ' 0
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee turns |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
I have a Model IV with 5 wraps instead of 6 and it works fine.
I have the 7/16s Bungees as well. I think they have 3 stripes on them.
My empty weight is under 550 lbs though.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Bungee turns
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On May 22, 2006, at 10:45 PM, eccles wrote:
>> about these shock cords ,, My series V manual says 8 wraps on the P/N
>> 63003.101 bungee cords
>
> Yes, I did the mistake to forget mentioning that I had a model 3. I
> guess the model V is heavier and needs more turns. In any case, the
> model 3 is certainly not meant to have more than six because there is
> already very little place for six turns and if I had to add a couple,
> they would have to be on the top of others, and that is not wise, is
> it?
> And I agree, it takes two strong men to pull the bungee to a fit around
> the bars, one under and one from the inside.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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