---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/27/06: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: water temp 582 (Don Smythe) 2. 05:04 AM - IT FLEW IT FLEW IT FLEW (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 3. 05:39 AM - 582 wiring (Dill Family) 4. 06:27 AM - Re: water temp 582 (Bradley M Webb) 5. 06:33 AM - Re: IT FLEW IT FLEW IT FLEW (Lowell Fitt) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol (Lowell Fitt) 7. 08:51 AM - Re: 582 wiring (Torgeir Mortensen) 8. 09:55 AM - Re: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol (PWilson) 9. 03:58 PM - Re: water temp 582 (Guy Buchanan) 10. 06:06 PM - Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? (darinh) 11. 06:44 PM - Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? (kurt schrader) 12. 07:03 PM - Auto Fuel (Zimmermans) 13. 07:54 PM - Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? (darinh) 14. 09:11 PM - Re: Re:Rotax carb sockets (Rex) 15. 09:56 PM - Re: Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:34 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water temp 582 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Yes, 582 Do not Archive ----- Original Message ----- > Are you talking 582 here Don? We might be a cross perposes.. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:03 AM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: IT FLEW IT FLEW IT FLEW --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com . 5 HR today for my first time flying in a kit fox water temp was good it did come down after making sure the mix was 50/50 and jetting is acceptable with the chopped muffler. first landing was a little bouncy not enough back pressure 2ed one was much better only 81 days left on my 90 day solo sign off. now i need to find a person in Michigan to give me my check ride. total flight time 542.75 HR including 4.5 hr. of CFI instruction Malcolm Brubaker ASC B.F.I 000326 soon to be a sport pilot ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:29 AM PST US From: "Dill Family" Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 wiring --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" I want to trace out the wiring on my used M2 with 582 before I fly it. I = looked for a few minutes in the archives for a schematic. None was = found, however some insight was provided in "Rotax Charging" dated = 4/18/20006. I gather that I will find a grey wire which goes to the = tach. Then there is a yellow and a yellow/black wire which come from the = stator. Not to be confused with the black/yellow shorting wires. Forgive = me. At this point I am not even sure about the major components. What is = the stator and what gadgets perform the duties of magneto and alternator = on this engine?=20 Looking at the engine, I have one yellow, one brown, one grey, and three = combination yellow/black (two of which are presumably shorting wires). = Any further explanation would be appreciated.=20 I have what is probably a regulator mounted on my firewall, with two = yellow input, black ground and a red output that disappears into my = starter switch. Is it a rectifier too? Why two inputs? One of the yellow = wires is connected to the yellow wire from the engine, the other is = connected to one of the yellow/black combinations. (If the other two = yellow/blacks are for magneto grounding, I guess that names all three). = Am I homing in on the right answers? What is the brown wire for?=20 Does anybody have a link to a schematic? Jeff Dill, M2 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:37 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: water temp 582 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" That is correct, and the most important part of it. All the air that gets in the cowl, must leave via the radiator. It worked very well, but could have been better, given the time. My outlet "scoop" could have used some intelligence thrown at it, and the exhaust in the cowl really heated the air up with no coating or wrap. But, it did work satisfactorily, and I recommend it IF you wish to mount the radiator out of sight. Pics with the cowl wouldn't show anything, as it's all buried behind the muffler. Under the "Drawings" section on Sportflight, I posted the "idea-on-a-napkin". Bradley M2 N1836 Middle Georgia -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: water temp 582 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 03:27 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: >Check out my radiator location on SportFlight. It worked very well, the >speeds increased, and the 'fox classic lines are undisturbed. Bradley, That is the wildest radiator install I've ever seen! You don't show any pictures with the cowl, but I'm assuming it works because the radiator is the ONLY cowl outlet? Therefore all that air coming in the big round inlet has to go through the radiator? Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:09 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: IT FLEW IT FLEW IT FLEW --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Malcolm, This sounds really good. Thanks for the post. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 5:01 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: IT FLEW IT FLEW IT FLEW > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com > > . 5 HR today for my first time flying in a kit fox water temp was good > it > did come down after making sure the mix was 50/50 and jetting is > acceptable > with the chopped muffler. first landing was a little bouncy not enough > back > pressure 2ed one was much better only 81 days left on my 90 day solo > sign > off. now i need to find a person in Michigan to give me my check ride. > total flight time 542.75 HR including 4.5 hr. of CFI instruction > Malcolm > Brubaker ASC B.F.I 000326 soon to be a sport pilot > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:44 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" I did forget to mention in my post that the vinyl ester resins are quite fuel resistant. They do require activation which gives a limited shelf life and will of course need a hardner when used in a lay-up. In fact I did a Google search to check the spelling and found a RC site discussing this resin for alcohol based RC fuels with good recommendations. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "jdmcbean" Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:18 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" > > Paul, > It is ATLAC.. I have looked into it some.. very short self life and very > difficult to come by.. also needs to be purchased in large quantities.. > > > Fly Safe !! > John & Debra McBean > www.sportplanellc.com > "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson > Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:50 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson > > And Skystar used the exact same resin that is used in your local gas > station. It is compatible with ethanol. Trouble is: 1) They didn't > start using the new resin until late in the M4 or M5 production run. > 2) pinholes could still be present. This product is called something > like ~Aflac~, but I have no idea how it is spelled. If someone does > not give us the correct name for this resin then I will have to do a > lot of digging. Like Don I found a coating but its not West, I used a > Randolf coating that is suppose to be compatible. But the plane is > still not finished so I have no report if it is true. > > BTW, Using a resin to coat the tank is a big deal. Just ask Don about > all the trouble he went to. The epoxy resin is much harder to use > than a sloshing liquid. > > The best solution if you have a leak is to do the research and re > slosh coat the tanks with the best stuff you can find. BTW, My early > tanks were coated with The old Kreme and when I pressurized them for > a leak test there were pinhole leaks on the top surface. > Interestingly the pinholes were where the grey epoxy paint had been > scratched. > > I think we are all in trouble when the standard auto fuel becomes E85 > because the engine will have low performance even if your fuel system > does not ge corroded and fail.. > > Regards, Paul > ============================= > At 02:04 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" >> >>Don, >> >>I cannot find link but there is a product that is compatible with ethanol >>. >>I think it was called red- something. >>besides most gas stations have fiberglass tanks and contain ethanol fuel. >> >>I have no idea if our fuel in Canada has ethanol yet or what percentage >>but >>so far , so good . >> >>I have heard of some tank's lining turning to gel and clogging up fuel >>filters. >> >>Dave > > > -- > > -- > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 wiring From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Jeff, Here's a direct link to a 582 schematic at CPS's homesite: http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/part32.pdf If you go to this one, you'll find lot's of tech. articles: http://www.800-airwolf.com/pdffiles/ARTICLES/ This is just another place where you'll be able to download a Rotax 582 installation manual, roll down to page 18-4 and you'll find the right stuff: http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d00287.pdf For others, go here and you'll find most of the Rotax manuals: http://www.lycon.se/rotax/Index-eng.htm Good luck Torgeir Model II with 532 engine. On Sat, 27 May 2006 08:37:57 -0400, Dill Family wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dill Family" > > > I want to trace out the wiring on my used M2 with 582 before I fly it. I > = > looked for a few minutes in the archives for a schematic. None was = > found, however some insight was provided in "Rotax Charging" dated = > 4/18/20006. I gather that I will find a grey wire which goes to the = > tach. Then there is a yellow and a yellow/black wire which come from the > = > stator. Not to be confused with the black/yellow shorting wires. Forgive > = > me. At this point I am not even sure about the major components. What is > = > the stator and what gadgets perform the duties of magneto and alternator > = > on this engine?=20 > > Looking at the engine, I have one yellow, one brown, one grey, and three > = > combination yellow/black (two of which are presumably shorting wires). = > Any further explanation would be appreciated.=20 > > I have what is probably a regulator mounted on my firewall, with two = > yellow input, black ground and a red output that disappears into my = > starter switch. Is it a rectifier too? Why two inputs? One of the yellow > = > wires is connected to the yellow wire from the engine, the other is = > connected to one of the yellow/black combinations. (If the other two = > yellow/blacks are for magneto grounding, I guess that names all three). = > Am I homing in on the right answers? What is the brown wire for?=20 > Does anybody have a link to a schematic? > > Jeff Dill, M2 > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:43 AM PST US From: PWilson Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson Thanks, John =============== At 11:18 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" > >Paul, > It is ATLAC.. I have looked into it some.. very short self > life and very >difficult to come by.. also needs to be purchased in large quantities.. > > >Fly Safe !! >John & Debra McBean >www.sportplanellc.com >"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of PWilson >Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 4:50 PM >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox tanks and blended ethanol > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson > >And Skystar used the exact same resin that is used in your local gas >station. It is compatible with ethanol. Trouble is: 1) They didn't >start using the new resin until late in the M4 or M5 production run. >2) pinholes could still be present. This product is called something >like ~Aflac~, but I have no idea how it is spelled. If someone does >not give us the correct name for this resin then I will have to do a >lot of digging. Like Don I found a coating but its not West, I used a >Randolf coating that is suppose to be compatible. But the plane is >still not finished so I have no report if it is true. > >BTW, Using a resin to coat the tank is a big deal. Just ask Don about >all the trouble he went to. The epoxy resin is much harder to use >than a sloshing liquid. > >The best solution if you have a leak is to do the research and re >slosh coat the tanks with the best stuff you can find. BTW, My early >tanks were coated with The old Kreme and when I pressurized them for >a leak test there were pinhole leaks on the top surface. >Interestingly the pinholes were where the grey epoxy paint had been >scratched. > >I think we are all in trouble when the standard auto fuel becomes E85 >because the engine will have low performance even if your fuel system >does not ge corroded and fail.. > >Regards, Paul >============================= >At 02:04 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > > >Don, > > > >I cannot find link but there is a product that is compatible with ethanol . > >I think it was called red- something. > >besides most gas stations have fiberglass tanks and contain ethanol fuel. > > > >I have no idea if our fuel in Canada has ethanol yet or what percentage but > >so far , so good . > > > >I have heard of some tank's lining turning to gel and clogging up fuel > >filters. > > > >Dave > > >-- > >-- > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:06 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water temp 582 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 05:26 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote: >has anyone thought to call Rotax! The Rotax book says 80C/180F max during break-in, and 80C/175F max operationally. I guess they have problems converting units! (80C is 176F.) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? From: "darinh" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" I am assembling my rudder pedals on my series 7 and the torque tube bushings are bolted to the brackets and torqued to 35-40 in-lb. This holds them tight against the brackets and does not allow for any movement with the pedals. Obviously these bushings are not meant to rotate with the torque tube around the bolt but rather the torque tube rotates on the bushing. My problem is that these bushings are significantly larger than the I.D. of my torque tube and will require significant sanding to allow for a smooth movement of the pedals. Does anyone have some input on this? My inclination is that I would rather have the tube and bushing rotate as one around the bolt but this won't allow for the proper torquing of the nut/bolt combination. I don't see that as a huge problem as the load on the bolt is purely shear and not tension. The nuts are nylon lock nuts so they should not back out. Any thoughts? Or what have others done. Thanks, Darin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36895#36895 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:11 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Darin, I had to remove all the paint out of the inside of the tubes and deduce the bearings until it all fit. I spun them on a drill press and sanded them down. The first time I did it, the pedals would not return well from spring tension alone. You need to have it really work smoothly to get it right. After I worked everything to fit, I lubricated the bearings too aid in smooth runner ops. If you leave it tight, the cables can go slack and possibly catch on something or jump off track. Also I had to shim the mounts, or they would bind as torque was applied. It seems the angle is just a tad off so the mounts don't line up with the tubing. It is worth it to make this operate well. You just have to keep at it. Kurt S. S-5/NSI tirbo --- darinh wrote: > I am assembling my rudder pedals on my series 7 and > the torque tube bushings are bolted to the brackets > and torqued to 35-40 in-lb. This holds them tight > against the brackets and does not allow for any > movement with the pedals. Obviously these bushings > are not meant to rotate with the torque tube around > the bolt but rather the torque tube rotates on the > bushing. My problem is that these bushings are > significantly larger than the I.D. of my torque tube > and will require significant sanding to allow for a > smooth movement of the pedals. Does anyone have > some input on this? My inclination is that I would > rather have the tube and bushing rotate as one > around the bolt but this won't allow for the proper > torquing of the nut/bolt combination. I don't see > that as a huge problem as the load on the bolt is > purely shear and not tension. The nuts are nylon > lock nuts so they should not back out. Any > thoughts? Or what have others done. Thanks, > > Darin __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:16 PM PST US From: "Zimmermans" Subject: Kitfox-List: Auto Fuel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Zimmermans" Here in Minnesota we have 10% ethanol. The street rodders went to the = legislature and got an exemption for old cars, rods and boats or any = recreational toy. It is available at a lot of stations. This might be = worth trying before all your mo gas has ethanol. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? From: "darinh" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" Kurt, Do you see anything wrong with having the bushing and torque tube rotate as one around the bolt as with a typical bolt/bearing combination? This is the way I have it now and it is as smooth as silk with not side to side play or slop. As mentioned, the bolts are only in shear and therefore the full tension strength of the bolt or nut is not needed as long as the nut does not come loose. Being that they are nylon lock nuts, this won't be a problem. I figure the wear of the bearing from the torque tube rotating around it would be more than that of the bolt because of the much larger contact area. The bolt/bearing fit is much more precise and therefore much smoother. Do you see anything wrong with this approach. Maybe it would be best to install an AN4-11 bolt and castle nut with cotter pin, that way I would be assured that it would not come loose. What do you think? Darin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36909#36909 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:02 PM PST US From: Rex Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re:Rotax carb sockets --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex Actually I count 3 of us Rex's on this list unless there are more that are silent. Rex in Colorado M2/582 (still not flying) :-( Rexster wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rexster" > >Larry, > There's two of us Rex's on this site and you may have intended this f= >or the "big pond" guy who I think is from Australia. I have a 912, so I = >really don't know how sockets are going to work on your 582. I'm going t= >o the airport tomorrow and will post the part numbers for the 912 socket= >s. >Rex in Michigan with the Model 3, 912 > = > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:58 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Darin, I forgot, but I think that the bolt is not threaded under the bearing, correct? It is a smooth contact? If not, you certainly would get a lot of wear. Actually the pressure is spread out more on the bearing to tube contact than the bearing to bolt contact. It should wear longer as planned. Remember that you can put up to 300 lbs of force on the pedals in a panic and a pretty good amount in nornmal rudder/brake usage. The bolt hole in the bearing might elongate under use if it rotates, but the tube to bearing hole shouldn't. I think it is definately better to use a castleated nut and cotterpin on any rotating parts. If you stick with the bearing rotating on the bolt, you need the castle nut/pin. I got tired of trying to make this go together right at first, but had to go back and fix it later when my plane was done. It is best to do it right at the start. As I said, you can put the bearing-bolt assembly in a drill and file or sand it down while spinning. Try to keep it even and not tapered or rounded. After a bit it does go pretty fast and you will like the results better. Don't take too much off though. You always have a few "I-should-haves" when your plane is done. The fewer the better and none should be after an accident. In my case, I should have put blind nuts under the fuselage so that the peddal assembly can be removed and replaced entirely from above. As it is planned, you could be required to remove the engine and firewall to get at the nuts. Kurt S. --- darinh wrote: > Kurt, > > Do you see anything wrong with having the bushing > and torque tube rotate as one around the bolt as > with a typical bolt/bearing combination? This is > the way I have it now and it is as smooth as silk > with not side to side play or slop. As mentioned, > the bolts are only in shear and therefore the full > tension strength of the bolt or nut is not needed as > long as the nut does not come loose. Being that > they are nylon lock nuts, this won't be a problem. > I figure the wear of the bearing from the torque > tube rotating around it would be more than that of > the bolt because of the much larger contact area. > The bolt/bearing fit is much more precise and > therefore much smoother. Do you see anything wrong > with this approach. Maybe it would be best to > install an AN4-11 bolt and castle nut with cotter > pin, that way I would be assured that it would not > come loose. What do you think? > > Darin __________________________________________________