---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/01/06: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:27 AM - Cracked Eng Mount (Paul) 2. 06:11 AM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (James Shumaker) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (Floran Higgins) 4. 06:57 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (Michel Verheughe) 5. 08:04 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (Randy Daughenbaugh) 6. 08:24 AM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (Jimmie Blackwell) 7. 08:58 AM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (kurt schrader) 8. 09:21 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (kurt schrader) 9. 09:32 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (Bryan Bowen) 10. 10:39 AM - high oil temps 912 (HOLZY@aol.com) 11. 11:18 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (Michel Verheughe) 12. 11:49 AM - Anybody needing: tube gear and 582 mount model IV (Forfun3@aol.com) 13. 12:46 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (Lowell Fitt) 14. 02:07 PM - Spars / repairs (Dave G.) 15. 02:41 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (kitfoxmike) 16. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: high oil temps 912 (ron schick) 17. 03:42 PM - Re: Spars / repairs (Lowell Fitt) 18. 03:55 PM - Re: Spars / repairs (Dave) 19. 04:01 PM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (Paul) 20. 04:18 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (kitfoxmike) 21. 04:37 PM - Re: Spars / repairs (Dave G.) 22. 04:58 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (neflyer48) 23. 05:49 PM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (kitfoxmike) 24. 07:07 PM - radiator additive ? (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 25. 08:44 PM - Re: radiator additive ? (John King) 26. 09:47 PM - Re: radiator additive ? (kurt schrader) 27. 10:23 PM - Re: Re: high oil temps 912 (kurt schrader) 28. 10:30 PM - Re: Spars / repairs (kurt schrader) 29. 10:33 PM - Re: oil pressure (kurt schrader) 30. 10:51 PM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount (James Shumaker) 31. 11:31 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 32. 11:38 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:09 AM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the short tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a stain on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and the tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. Paul N102DG ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:43 AM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker Paul I just found a crack on my model III 912ul. It was on the top of the ring tube of the dynafocal mount. When I pulled the engine, one of the short tubes was also cracked. I have not even done a complete inspection yet. Will keep you informed as to what I find. Even with two cracked tubes on the mounts the engine felt tight and secure on the frame. Jim Shumaker Paul wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the short tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a stain on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and the tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. Paul N102DG ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:23 AM PST US From: "Floran Higgins" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Floran Higgins" Amen! My feelings exactly. Floran H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Matthaey" Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" > > > I know there are better performing composite props out there, but strictly > aesthetically-speaking, nothing beats a three-blade wood prop on a Kitfox. > Period ;-) Personally, I'm not looking to gain a couple knots or 100ft in > the climb-out and give up my GSC! But to each his own... > > Andrew > > do not archive > > >>From: "John Anderson" >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice >>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:29:30 +1200 >> >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" >> >> >>Well I can't say and I have to respect your opinion. I've only flown one >>Fox (mine) and behind a 3 blade 72" ground adjustable Warpdrive and one up >>and 1/2 fuel, 1500' per min at 55kts 80% power and 97kts cruise at 75% >>(after tweeking the pitch to suit) is pretty good to me. John A. >> >> >>From: "Andrew Matthaey" >>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice >>Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:14:52 -0400 >> >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" >> >> >>IMHO a good wood prop makes the Kitfox! >> >>Andrew >> >> >>do not archive >> >> >From: "John Anderson" >> >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice >> >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:57:16 +1200 >> > >> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" >> > >> > >> >Have you thought of using something simple and effective like a >>Warpdrive? >> >John A. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >From: "Michael Meyers" >> >To: >> >Subject: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice >> >Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 10:24:45 -0700 >> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michael Meyers" >> > >> > >> >Thanks to input I received from this list I have narrowed my search for >>= >> >a wood prop for my KF (Cont. 0-200 engine) to two manufactures. = >> >Sensenich makes a suitable model for $1085, unfortunately they have 3 = >> >month production backlog. Props Inc. of Newport, Oregon offers a = >> >similar model for $995 with a one month turn around. Has anyone had >> any >>= >> >experience or recommendations regarding Props Inc.? >> > >> >Michael Meyers >> >N598BM >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >_________________________________________________________________ >> >Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >>http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ >> >> >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:45 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" > but strictly aesthetically-speaking, nothing beats a > three-blade wood prop on a Kitfox. Well ... a two-bladed wooden prop isn't bad either and the Sensenich one is really cool! Right now, I have a Jabiru prop but, one day, when I grow up, I'll have a Sensenich! :-) http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/propguide.htm Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:16 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Is it true that the finish on wood props doesn't stand up to flying in rain? I wouldn't want to feel restricted from flying in rain. Maybe I am being too practical,,,,,, Randy . -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:57 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" > but strictly aesthetically-speaking, nothing beats a > three-blade wood prop on a Kitfox. Well ... a two-bladed wooden prop isn't bad either and the Sensenich one is really cool! Right now, I have a Jabiru prop but, one day, when I grow up, I'll have a Sensenich! :-) http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/propguide.htm Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:40 AM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jimmie Blackwell This the third engine mount problem, (including mine), with the 912 UL in the last two weeks. I wanted to ask Jim and Paul to post a picture of their cracked mounts on Sportflight and let's try to determine if there is are some common denominators such as torque or total hours on the mount when it fails. Looks like Paul and I had about the same amount of hours when the failure occurred. My rubber engine mount pads had been changed within 15 hours of when my engine mount broke. When changing the rubber pads I torgued all the hardware according to the latest Model IV building manual. I can't help but wonder if the torque settings may be wrong or if there was a batch of bad engine mounts produced at some point. Hopefully, some of you with more experience and knowledge can help us figure out what is causing the engine mount failures before someone hurts their Kitfox or worse, themselves. Jimmie James Shumaker wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker Paul I just found a crack on my model III 912ul. It was on the top of the ring tube of the dynafocal mount. When I pulled the engine, one of the short tubes was also cracked. I have not even done a complete inspection yet. Will keep you informed as to what I find. Even with two cracked tubes on the mounts the engine felt tight and secure on the frame. Jim Shumaker Paul wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the short tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a stain on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and the tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. Paul N102DG ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:22 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Jimmie and all, I do not have the 912, but wonder after reading other posts on this list if it isn`t a problem with start and shutdown shaking from the high compression. Unless you have inflight vibration that occurs at rpms you should stay away from, it would seem the biggest vibration is durning starting and stopping. Different props would likely mean different running vibrations, so unless your props are the same, that should not be the problem. Do you have clutches installed? How much does the plane shake when you start? Do you notice inflight vibs? Have you had exhaust cracks that would indicate running vibs? Carbs falling off? These questions have been raised before on the list and there may be a connection. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Jimmie Blackwell wrote: > This the third engine mount problem, (including > mine), with the 912 UL in the last two weeks. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:02 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi John, Sounds like good performance to me. I have CAP prop which uses Warp blades, but can`t match your performance - yet. Part of the problem is that my ROC gauge is faulty. Got it at the limits of adjustment and it shows 125 ft/min descent in level cruise. More off as it goes above zero. I forget the results of my timed climbs, but not 1500'/min. I usually climb at over 60 knots so I can see anyway. How do you determine 75% and 80%? I think I use 50% or less at 85 knots based on fuel flow. Produces a better true with altitude. I probably use 80% for takeoff. Never twice exactly the same without a pitch gauge on an adjustable prop. I agree that a wood prop would look nice too, but better on the round cowl. Kurt S. --- John Anderson wrote: > Well I can't say and I have to respect your opinion. > I've only flown one > Fox (mine) and behind a 3 blade 72" ground > adjustable Warpdrive and one up > and 1/2 fuel, 1500' per min at 55kts 80% power and > 97kts cruise at 75% > (after tweeking the pitch to suit) is pretty good to > me. John A. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:08 AM PST US From: "Bryan Bowen" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bryan Bowen" Props Inc is great to work with. If you do not achieve the RPM performance you want they will adjust the pitch until you are satisfied. >From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" >To: >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 08:58:35 -0600 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" > > >Is it true that the finish on wood props doesn't stand up to flying in >rain? >I wouldn't want to feel restricted from flying in rain. > >Maybe I am being too practical,,,,,, > >Randy > >. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel >Verheughe >Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:57 AM >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" > > but strictly aesthetically-speaking, nothing beats a > > three-blade wood prop on a Kitfox. > >Well ... a two-bladed wooden prop isn't bad either and the Sensenich one is >really cool! Right now, I have a Jabiru prop but, one day, when I grow up, >I'll have a Sensenich! :-) > >http://www.sensenichprop.com/sen_html/propguide.htm > >Cheers, >Michel > >do not archive > > _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:36 AM PST US From: HOLZY@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: HOLZY@aol.com List Members, I have been getting some very high oil temps lately on my 912. POH says up to 285 is within limits, but my gauge only goes to 260. I have been doing a lot of pattern flying & it spends most of the time pegged. It drops off a little(10-20 degrees) when I level off at 3000 ft.Pressure is only slightly high & cht's are fine so my mechanic thinks it is a gauge/sender problem. I did, however, get a new gauge & sender at the beginning of 2005. There were no high readings in 2005. Engine is 10 years old but with only 125 hours, oil change is fresh this spring. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. What are Ideal oil temps/pressure for the 912 in the summer? Thanks in advance for the advice, Mike Holzberger Milwaukee WI N104DG Model IV Speedster 912 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:56 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Jun 1, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > Is it true that the finish on wood props doesn't stand up to flying in > rain? Well, I believe there are several type of wood props, Randy. Some are epoxy coated some are ... coated with something else, I don't know. But I have a Jabiru prop because I have a Jabiru engine and direct drive engines should have a wood prop because of the vibrations, I am being told. I asked my Jabiru dealer about the effect of the rain and his words are: If you fly in rain, reduce RPM to 2,400 (3,000 being my level WOT RPM). I can live with that. My prop has a rubbery leading edge and I understand that it could be damaged if it spins for a longer time at a higher RPM. I guess the intensity of the rain has also something to say, as the size of the raindrops. I have been flying in thin drizzle rain with not effect on the prop. I guess when it's the big rain shower type of weather, I'll try to fly around it. Often showers are only very local. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:36 AM PST US From: Forfun3@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Anybody needing: tube gear and 582 mount model IV --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Forfun3@aol.com Anybody looking for the tubular gear and or a 582 mount for a Mod IV Kitfox. unused. Contact off list if needed, will make a good deal. Thanks Ralph Boling ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:21 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Mike are you using an oil cooler? Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:34 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: HOLZY@aol.com > > List Members, > > I have been getting some very high oil temps lately on my 912. POH says > up > to 285 is within limits, but my gauge only goes to 260. I have been > doing a > lot of pattern flying & it spends most of the time pegged. It drops off > a > little(10-20 degrees) when I level off at 3000 ft.Pressure is only > slightly > high & cht's are fine so my mechanic thinks it is a gauge/sender problem. > I > did, however, get a new gauge & sender at the beginning of 2005. There > were no > high readings in 2005. Engine is 10 years old but with only 125 hours, > oil > change is fresh this spring. Any ideas or suggestions would be > appreciated. > What are Ideal oil temps/pressure for the 912 in the summer? > > Thanks in advance for the advice, > > Mike Holzberger > Milwaukee WI > N104DG Model IV Speedster 912 > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:02 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an earlier one as the uphostery says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done but is damaged. The rear spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the tube just outboard of the rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or books yet and I guess I have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such a repair. Is this type of thing done? The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that is the way to go. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:54 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" This may sound weard, but turn off your charging system, when I do all my temps drop 20degrees. Still trying to figure why. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37938#37938 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:46 PM PST US From: "ron schick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" Mike do you have a ground strap on your engine, frame, panel? Ron NB Ore >From: "kitfoxmike" >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 >Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 14:37:36 -0700 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" > >This may sound weard, but turn off your charging system, when I do all my >temps drop 20degrees. Still trying to figure why. > >-------- >kitfoxmike >kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster >http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37938#37938 > > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:32 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Dave, I personally am not comfortable with a spar repair. I guess if it was engineered - OK, but one of the bragging rights we have as Kitfox pilots and owners is the history of structural integrity. Trying to invision the spar replacement - it won't be a small task though. Where are you located. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G." Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." > > I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an earlier one as the > uphostery > says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done but is damaged. The rear > spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the tube just outboard of > the > rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or books yet and I guess I > have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such a repair. Is this type > of thing done? > > The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that is the way to go. > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:33 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Hi Dave, Spar Damage is a major problem. Only fix is a new spar and I would bet you will be needing an entire wing. To remove ribs all intact will be highly unlikely and very labour intensive, plus what else is damaged ? If the spar got that damaged then surely it is likely that more could be found. Where is this Kitfox located now ? I see by your email you are in Nova Scotia. I am in Ontario. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G." Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." > > I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an earlier one as the > uphostery > says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done but is damaged. The rear > spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the tube just outboard of > the > rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or books yet and I guess I > have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such a repair. Is this type > of thing done? > > The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that is the way to go. > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:53 PM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" I will take a picture this weekend. I have had a carb come off 200 plus hrs ago, balancing carbs, new carb sockets, and spring kit seams to have taken care of that. 100 plus hrs ago I did the mod to stiffen the eng mounts (shorten the bushings). Its more than likely that this has been cracked for a wile. Its appears to emanate from the weld and I would say it went aft first and could go unnoticed easily. I am an airline mechanic for 27 years, including time as a level II NDT, PT, UT, ET & PM. If I had just wiped the stain and not go further with power coat removal, it would go till the next annual inspection, this is a very fine tight crack. I do not have a slipper clutch, and the 912 does shake if you don't get a clean start. The start procedure that was on this list of using choke with the ignition off and let sit, then set the throttle seams to work better than the primer system. ( I took that off) I have never had exhaust or any real fretting problems, when running the 912 is awsom powerplant. Paul N102DG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jimmie Blackwell > > > This the third engine mount problem, (including mine), with the 912 UL in > the last two weeks. I wanted to ask Jim and Paul to post a picture of > their cracked mounts on Sportflight and let's try to determine if there is > are some common denominators such as torque or total hours on the mount > when it fails. Looks like Paul and I had about the same amount of hours > when the failure occurred. > > My rubber engine mount pads had been changed within 15 hours of when my > engine mount broke. When changing the rubber pads I torgued all the > hardware according to the latest Model IV building manual. I can't help > but wonder if the torque settings may be wrong or if there was a batch of > bad engine mounts produced at some point. Hopefully, some of you with > more experience and knowledge can help us figure out what is causing the > engine mount failures before someone hurts their Kitfox or worse, > themselves. > > Jimmie > James Shumaker wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker > > Paul > > I just found a crack on my model III 912ul. It was on the top of the ring > tube of the dynafocal mount. When I pulled the engine, one of the short > tubes was also cracked. I have not even done a complete inspection yet. > Will keep you informed as to what I find. > > Even with two cracked tubes on the mounts the engine felt tight and secure > on the frame. > > Jim Shumaker > > Paul > wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" > > > I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the > short > tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a > stain > on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and > the > tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the > mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. > > Paul N102DG > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" good grounds, but the temps on all guages do this. I have a ground that goes to the engine, seperate ground buss for all other grounds. I come across this because my stereo was making noise and I turned off the alternator and it quit and I noticed the temps dropped when doing it. I did correct the stereo noise by putting a cap on the power lead to ground for the stereo. Nice and quit now. But the temps has me wondering might need to tackle that problem next. But then again even with this the temps don't go over 220 on head temps, oil or water(still head temp). That's with 90 f outside temp. kitfox4 1200 912ul kitfoxmike -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37959#37959 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:56 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." The aircraft is about 85 KM away in Brookfield N.S. I can get it home in a couple of hours. The damage was not caused in motion, I am told it was flipped in wind. It all looks very good with the exception of the wings needing new covering, several ribs have been replaced I'll get some pictures when I get it home. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > Hi Dave, > > Spar Damage is a major problem. > Only fix is a new spar and I would bet you will be needing an entire wing. > To remove ribs all intact will be highly unlikely and very labour > intensive, plus what else is damaged ? If the spar got that damaged then > surely it is likely that more could be found. Where is this Kitfox > located now ? > > I see by your email you are in Nova Scotia. I am in Ontario. > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave G." > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 5:01 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." >> >> I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an earlier one as the >> uphostery >> says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done but is damaged. The >> rear >> spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the tube just outboard of >> the >> rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or books yet and I guess I >> have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such a repair. Is this >> type >> of thing done? >> >> The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that is the way to go. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:06 PM PST US From: "neflyer48" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" Mine usually shows about 240 to 250 on warm days. The sending unit is in the bottom of the block, in the front port. The oil blow back hose is in the back port. I believe the high temperature reading is because the sending unit is not really submerged in oil because the oil is scavenged out of the block. The hot blowby gas in the crankcase is what is really being read by the oil pressure gauge. I thought about changing it to a different location. Jerry Kohles 912 830hrs. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:34 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: HOLZY@aol.com > > List Members, > > I have been getting some very high oil temps lately on my 912. POH says > up > to 285 is within limits, but my gauge only goes to 260. I have been > doing a > lot of pattern flying & it spends most of the time pegged. It drops off > a > little(10-20 degrees) when I level off at 3000 ft.Pressure is only > slightly > high & cht's are fine so my mechanic thinks it is a gauge/sender problem. > I > did, however, get a new gauge & sender at the beginning of 2005. There > were no > high readings in 2005. Engine is 10 years old but with only 125 hours, > oil > change is fresh this spring. Any ideas or suggestions would be > appreciated. > What are Ideal oil temps/pressure for the 912 in the summer? > > Thanks in advance for the advice, > > Mike Holzberger > Milwaukee WI > N104DG Model IV Speedster 912 > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Cracked Eng Mount From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" another thing to be concerned about is shut down. What I do is run the rpm's up to about 3000 and then turn off the mags and pull back on the throttle as far as it will go at the same time. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=37973#37973 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:38 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com any body had any luck adding something to the radiator fluid to keep it cooler ? mal ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:05 PM PST US From: John King Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: John King I use a 50/50 mix of coolant and distilled water. -- John King Warrenton, VA Malcolmbru@aol.com wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com > >any body had any luck adding something to the radiator fluid to keep it >cooler ? mal > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:37 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader That was my question to Don S. last week. Apparently nothing he changed or added worked except what he did phsically to the radiator. kurt S. --- Malcolmbru@aol.com wrote: > any body had any luck adding something to the > radiator fluid to keep it > cooler ? mal __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:45 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Mike, Try running a temporary ground wire from your gauge grounds to the battery (-) terminal. See if that changes it. You may have a bad battery ground since you get the lower reading off the battery. Kurt S. --- kitfoxmike wrote: > This may sound weard, but turn off your charging > system, when I do all my temps drop 20degrees. > Still trying to figure why. > > -------- > kitfoxmike > kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster > http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:32 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Dave, I agree, replace the spar or the entire wing. Why was the spar busted? Could it have been from something that hurt other parts too? If the wing had a chance to flex when the spar was broke, the ribs may be weakened by rotation or the epoxy come unattached from the spar. This is not worth the risk to find out in flight. Kurt S. --- "Dave G." wrote: > I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an > earlier one as the uphostery > says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done > but is damaged. The rear > spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the > tube just outboard of the > rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or > books yet and I guess I > have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such > a repair. Is this type of thing done? > > The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that > is the way to go. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:56 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: oil pressure --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Bill/ralph? How hot is hot when the pressure is 20? 20 psi is too low for any power runs, let alone flight. Kurt S. --- Bill Flick wrote: > i have a recently overhauled ea-81 sub and am > haveing trouble getting = > enough oil press after warm up. starts off around > 60 lbs and then = > shortly drops off to 20 and a little less after hot. > i have a new = > pump-new gauage and sender and have checked > everything i can think of = > but no luck yet. i am useing 20-50 castrol. any > ideas would be greatly = > appreciated. i do not have an oil cooler but am > putting one on. = > question? do i put the cooler in the return line to > my sump or in the = > inlet line to the pump? thanks ralph __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:15 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker I'll try to get pictures up this weekend also. My guess is that it is the shaking of the engine. There is not any distortion associated with the cracks on my engine and they are not cracked all the way around. Jim Shumaker Paul wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" I will take a picture this weekend. I have had a carb come off 200 plus hrs ago, balancing carbs, new carb sockets, and spring kit seams to have taken care of that. 100 plus hrs ago I did the mod to stiffen the eng mounts (shorten the bushings). Its more than likely that this has been cracked for a wile. Its appears to emanate from the weld and I would say it went aft first and could go unnoticed easily. I am an airline mechanic for 27 years, including time as a level II NDT, PT, UT, ET & PM. If I had just wiped the stain and not go further with power coat removal, it would go till the next annual inspection, this is a very fine tight crack. I do not have a slipper clutch, and the 912 does shake if you don't get a clean start. The start procedure that was on this list of using choke with the ignition off and let sit, then set the throttle seams to work better than the primer system. ( I took that off) I have never had exhaust or any real fretting problems, when running the 912 is awsom powerplant. Paul N102DG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jimmie Blackwell" Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jimmie Blackwell > > > This the third engine mount problem, (including mine), with the 912 UL in > the last two weeks. I wanted to ask Jim and Paul to post a picture of > their cracked mounts on Sportflight and let's try to determine if there is > are some common denominators such as torque or total hours on the mount > when it fails. Looks like Paul and I had about the same amount of hours > when the failure occurred. > > My rubber engine mount pads had been changed within 15 hours of when my > engine mount broke. When changing the rubber pads I torgued all the > hardware according to the latest Model IV building manual. I can't help > but wonder if the torque settings may be wrong or if there was a batch of > bad engine mounts produced at some point. Hopefully, some of you with > more experience and knowledge can help us figure out what is causing the > engine mount failures before someone hurts their Kitfox or worse, > themselves. > > Jimmie > James Shumaker wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker > > Paul > > I just found a crack on my model III 912ul. It was on the top of the ring > tube of the dynafocal mount. When I pulled the engine, one of the short > tubes was also cracked. I have not even done a complete inspection yet. > Will keep you informed as to what I find. > > Even with two cracked tubes on the mounts the engine felt tight and secure > on the frame. > > Jim Shumaker > > Paul > wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" > > > I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the > short > tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a > stain > on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and > the > tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the > mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. > > Paul N102DG > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:58 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Kitfox-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Kitfox-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Kitfox-List running smoothly for all of us. **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: kitfox-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ***************************************************************** *** Enclosures Stripped Out - Can't Get a Virus From the List *** ***************************************************************** Any enclosures that are posted to the List will automatically be stripped off, and ONLY the plain/text portion of the message will be forwarded to the List. Please configure your Email application to send Plain Text Only, and disable any "Quoted Printable" or "HTML" encoding whenever possible. Because enclosures are stripped out of incoming posts to the List, the likelihood of getting a virus from the List is extremely small. If you do receive a message that appears to be from the List, and it does include a virus, it is very likely that it was sent *directly* to you from someone on the List who has a virus. This is a specific kind of virus, and you should try to inform the sender, if possible. The best protection against viruses is a good virus protection program such as Norton Antivirus. State of the art in virus protection today's world gives maximum protection with little or no negative impact on the computer system. You can't afford to be without a good virus protection program these days. Note that some limited enclosure posting is now enabled on a number of Lists. Allowed types include .jpg, .gif, .txt, .pdf, .xls, and a few other similar types. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "kitfox-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Kitfox-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kitfox-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kitfox-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kitfox-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:43 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.]