---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/02/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:54 AM - Re: Wood Prop Advice (John Anderson) 2. 02:57 AM - Re: Spars / repairs (Dave G.) 3. 04:24 AM - Re: radiator additive ? (Don Smythe) 4. 07:13 AM - Kitfox trim tab- Lloyd (Larry Martin) 5. 08:46 AM - Re: high oil temps 912 (kitfoxmike) 6. 11:44 AM - Re: high oil temps 912 (Lowell Fitt) 7. 11:55 AM - Re: Spars / repairs (Lowell Fitt) 8. 01:20 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (Clint Bazzill) 9. 02:06 PM - Re: high oil temps 912 (kitfoxmike) 10. 02:25 PM - Re: radiator additive ? don S (Malcolmbru@aol.com) 11. 02:43 PM - Re: radiator additive ? don S (Don Smythe) 12. 06:38 PM - Re: Cracked Eng Mount () 13. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? (Guy Buchanan) 14. 08:23 PM - Re: Nose Wheel Shimmy (Guy Buchanan) 15. 08:23 PM - Re: Re: West System Epoxy answer (Guy Buchanan) 16. 11:48 PM - Re: Spars / repairs (A Smith) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:55 AM PST US From: "John Anderson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" Yes Kurt, I tend to climb faster too but for the test result I've put it through the paces. 5000max, 4600 @55kts BRC speed 1500'pm (just one up of course) and 4300 97kts level. Ive settled at 4000 for cruise as runs smoothest there and 90. I notice quite a boost drop from 4300 down to 4000. I've very pleased with how well it has turned out (touch wood), as you know I have EFI, intercooler, EA82 turbo, strut fairings, speedster tail, elv gap seals and spring gear mounting fairings From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wood Prop Advice --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi John, Sounds like good performance to me. I have CAP prop which uses Warp blades, but can`t match your performance - yet. Part of the problem is that my ROC gauge is faulty. Got it at the limits of adjustment and it shows 125 ft/min descent in level cruise. More off as it goes above zero. I forget the results of my timed climbs, but not 1500'/min. I usually climb at over 60 knots so I can see anyway. How do you determine 75% and 80%? I think I use 50% or less at 85 knots based on fuel flow. Produces a better true with altitude. I probably use 80% for takeoff. Never twice exactly the same without a pitch gauge on an adjustable prop. I agree that a wood prop would look nice too, but better on the round cowl. Kurt S. --- John Anderson wrote: >Well I can't say and I have to respect your opinion. > I've only flown one >Fox (mine) and behind a 3 blade 72" ground >adjustable Warpdrive and one up >and 1/2 fuel, 1500' per min at 55kts 80% power and >97kts cruise at 75% >(after tweeking the pitch to suit) is pretty good to >me. John A. __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Read the latest Hollywood gossip @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/entertainment ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:33 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." Thanks Kurt. I just got a reply from the new Kitfox and spars are reasonably priced. I'll be replacing it. I'll post pictures when I actually get it home. That is tomorrow, course it's going to rain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:29 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Hi Dave, > > I agree, replace the spar or the entire wing. > > Why was the spar busted? Could it have been from > something that hurt other parts too? > > If the wing had a chance to flex when the spar was > broke, the ribs may be weakened by rotation or the > epoxy come unattached from the spar. > > This is not worth the risk to find out in flight. > > Kurt S. > > --- "Dave G." wrote: > >> I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an >> earlier one as the uphostery >> says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done >> but is damaged. The rear >> spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the >> tube just outboard of the >> rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or >> books yet and I guess I >> have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such >> a repair. Is this type of thing done? >> >> The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that >> is the way to go. > > __________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:18 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Kurt, That's true but, there are some small advantages to reducing the antifreeze ratio to say, 70% water to 30% antifreeze. The product "Waterwetter" will supposedly work wonders but only works it's best when mixed with water only and no antifreeze. I talked with the Waterwetter folks and they insured me that their product would provide all the lubrication needed without any antifreeze. I wasn't willing to trust their product without some antifreeze to lubricate the engine parts. Again, Waterwetter did provide a little improvement. Depending on what temps an engine is running, all these little extras might be enough but I don't think they will provide enough help in an engine that is running excessive high temps. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- > That was my question to Don S. last week. Apparently > nothing he changed or added worked except what he did > phsically to the radiator. > > kurt S. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:33 AM PST US From: "Larry Martin" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox trim tab- Lloyd --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Larry Martin" The New Kitfox-List Archive Web Search Engine Lloyd,=20 Would it be possible to get a copy of the diagram that you used? I am = having problems with my system, but I think it stems from the bowen = cable not tight enough, and perhaps the routing. Thanks, Larry -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 Match: #101 Message: #13768 From: "Cudnohufsky's" = <7suds(at)Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Elevator Trim systems Date: Jan = 06, 2006=20 Guy, The trim tab size was correct for my 4, however it was an XL Model with = a=20 gross of 950 and a VNE of 104mph. I was running a 503 that would cruise=20 around 70 and it worked great. I know Al has now installed a 582 and as = far=20 as I know he is still using the same trim system. The friction system on = the=20 handle worked great as well, I never had it slip on me. Another thought = is=20 what the RV guys are running, they are using a push pull very similar to = a=20 throttle, has a push button on the end to lock / unlock and make large=20 adjustments and can also twist from the lock position for micro adjust. = Have=20 never talked to anyone about how well they like it. I ran the cable out = from=20 the fuselage just under the horizontal stabilizer at about 1/2 the = chord.=20 The trim tab was close to the rudder side of the elevator and the = stand-off=20 was off set to line up with the structural tube in the elevator. Cable=20 stayed close to the bottom of the horizontal stab and did have a bit of = an=20 "S" shape to it. I also put O-Rings on the cable to keep it from = chaffing=20 the fabric / finish. Lloyd ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Guy Buchanan"=20 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Elevator Trim systems > > At 06:08 PM 1/5/2006, you wrote: >> >>Guy, >>The trim on my 4 was an after thought so I made a trim tab from light=20 >>gauge >>aluminum, about 14 ga. it was about 3.5" x 20" > > What did you think of the size. Was it about right? Too large? Too = small? > >>stock and made a friction system similar to the flap handle friction=20 >>system > > How did the friction system work? I bought a small throttle quadrant = that > uses friction but I was worried it wouldn't hold. > ... > >>The cable >>was run through the fuselage and exited below the horizontal stab at = the >>rear. 2 stand-off horns were fabbed from aluminum, one was riveted to = the >>trim tab and the other to the cross bar in the elevator. > > Did you run the cable out the angled member of the elevator? Or did = the > cable make some kind of an "S" to meet the tab perpendicular to it? > > Thanks for the help. By the way, I got your sketch off-line and it > clarified how you handled the back end. Thanks again. > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > >=20 End Msg: #101 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! -- = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Return to the Matronics Email List Homepages ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:00 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" Next time I have the cowl off I'll check the ground for the guages. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=38104#38104 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:51 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" I am really curious about what is going on here. When I was building, I went to the factory fly-in in Caldwell and noticed that most 912 powered airplanes had tape over part of their oil cooler fins to reduce air flow and thus increase oil temps. The target, of course, close to the boiling point of water to keep the condensation and blow by moisture under control. For that reason I used the 5.5 inch (between centers) Earls oil cooler rather than the 7 inch sold by Skystar at the time. I still had to put shutters on the oil cooler and can climb with temps in the green and with the exception of the hottest days, the shutters are rarely fully open. What model KF are you flying? Regrding blowby gasses, Rotax has spent a lot of energy with Service Bulletins talking about the importance if not having air (gas) in the oil. The new dipstick, oil recommendations, direction of prop rotation (hand propping) and venting of the oil system after oil change have all been to eliminate this issue and they hold that if you have bubbles in your oil, you will have much more serious problems than simply with the high oil temps. incidentally, I have just gone through my forth oil temp sender - WesTach - in two years. One lasted less than 2 months, this one almost exactly a year. What are others experience with these senders - the short one. Lowell Can yoiu give a few more details on your installation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "neflyer48" Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" > > Mine usually shows about 240 to 250 on warm days. The sending unit is in > the > bottom of the block, in the front port. The oil blow back hose is in the > back port. I believe the high temperature reading is because the sending > unit is not really submerged in oil because the oil is scavenged out of > the > block. The hot blowby gas in the crankcase is what is really being read by > the oil pressure gauge. I thought about changing it to a different > location. > > Jerry Kohles 912 830hrs. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:34 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: HOLZY@aol.com >> >> List Members, >> >> I have been getting some very high oil temps lately on my 912. POH says >> up >> to 285 is within limits, but my gauge only goes to 260. I have been >> doing a >> lot of pattern flying & it spends most of the time pegged. It drops off >> a >> little(10-20 degrees) when I level off at 3000 ft.Pressure is only >> slightly >> high & cht's are fine so my mechanic thinks it is a gauge/sender >> problem. >> I >> did, however, get a new gauge & sender at the beginning of 2005. There >> were no >> high readings in 2005. Engine is 10 years old but with only 125 hours, >> oil >> change is fresh this spring. Any ideas or suggestions would be >> appreciated. >> What are Ideal oil temps/pressure for the 912 in the summer? >> >> Thanks in advance for the advice, >> >> Mike Holzberger >> Milwaukee WI >> N104DG Model IV Speedster 912 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:50 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Dave, Lots of folks have disassembled wings for various reasons, it is doable. I am sure when you get to that point there will be lots of tips from the list. The new spar is the way to go. After stripping the fabric you will get a good look at ribs, etc and can make a judgement as to what can be re-used. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G." Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:53 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." > > Thanks Kurt. I just got a reply from the new Kitfox and spars are > reasonably > priced. I'll be replacing it. I'll post pictures when I actually get it > home. That is tomorrow, course it's going to rain. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kurt schrader" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 2:29 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I agree, replace the spar or the entire wing. >> >> Why was the spar busted? Could it have been from >> something that hurt other parts too? >> >> If the wing had a chance to flex when the spar was >> broke, the ribs may be weakened by rotation or the >> epoxy come unattached from the spar. >> >> This is not worth the risk to find out in flight. >> >> Kurt S. >> >> --- "Dave G." wrote: >> >>> I've just agreed to buy a Mod IV. It must be an >>> earlier one as the uphostery >>> says Denney under the logo. It's very nicely done >>> but is damaged. The rear >>> spar is broken and repaired with a sleeve over the >>> tube just outboard of the >>> rear strut attachment. I don't have the plane or >>> books yet and I guess I >>> have some reading ahead but I'm doubtful about such >>> a repair. Is this type of thing done? >>> >>> The Sportplane LLC site says they have spars if that >>> is the way to go. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:31 PM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" I replaced oil temp sensor at 1000 hours, and a CHT at about 800. Clint 912ULS From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" I am really curious about what is going on here. When I was building, I went to the factory fly-in in Caldwell and noticed that most 912 powered airplanes had tape over part of their oil cooler fins to reduce air flow and thus increase oil temps. The target, of course, close to the boiling point of water to keep the condensation and blow by moisture under control. For that reason I used the 5.5 inch (between centers) Earls oil cooler rather than the 7 inch sold by Skystar at the time. I still had to put shutters on the oil cooler and can climb with temps in the green and with the exception of the hottest days, the shutters are rarely fully open. What model KF are you flying? Regrding blowby gasses, Rotax has spent a lot of energy with Service Bulletins talking about the importance if not having air (gas) in the oil. The new dipstick, oil recommendations, direction of prop rotation (hand propping) and venting of the oil system after oil change have all been to eliminate this issue and they hold that if you have bubbles in your oil, you will have much more serious problems than simply with the high oil temps. incidentally, I have just gone through my forth oil temp sender - WesTach - in two years. One lasted less than 2 months, this one almost exactly a year. What are others experience with these senders - the short one. Lowell Can yoiu give a few more details on your installation. ----- Original Message ----- From: "neflyer48" Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" > > Mine usually shows about 240 to 250 on warm days. The sending unit is in > the > bottom of the block, in the front port. The oil blow back hose is in the > back port. I believe the high temperature reading is because the sending > unit is not really submerged in oil because the oil is scavenged out of > the > block. The hot blowby gas in the crankcase is what is really being read by > the oil pressure gauge. I thought about changing it to a different > location. > > Jerry Kohles 912 830hrs. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:34 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: high oil temps 912 > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: HOLZY@aol.com >> >> List Members, >> >> I have been getting some very high oil temps lately on my 912. POH says >> up >> to 285 is within limits, but my gauge only goes to 260. I have been >> doing a >> lot of pattern flying & it spends most of the time pegged. It drops off >> a >> little(10-20 degrees) when I level off at 3000 ft.Pressure is only >> slightly >> high & cht's are fine so my mechanic thinks it is a gauge/sender >> problem. >> I >> did, however, get a new gauge & sender at the beginning of 2005. There >> were no >> high readings in 2005. Engine is 10 years old but with only 125 hours, >> oil >> change is fresh this spring. Any ideas or suggestions would be >> appreciated. >> What are Ideal oil temps/pressure for the 912 in the summer? >> >> Thanks in advance for the advice, >> >> Mike Holzberger >> Milwaukee WI >> N104DG Model IV Speedster 912 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: high oil temps 912 From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" I personally have the big cooler with a thermostate. The thermostate is way cool, no more waiting for the engine to warm up, by the time I get to the runway I'm ready to go, doesn't matter if it's 30f outside or 90f, best thing, no more tape on the cooler. I've also had to replace the oil sensor about 200hrs ago, hum... last year. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=38171#38171 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:14 PM PST US From: Malcolmbru@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? don S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com what did don S do to his radiator? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:02 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? don S --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" A bunch of things. Modified the engine cowl to remove the left air exhaust on the bottom pilot side of the engine cowl, fabricated side exhaust vents on the engine cowl, fabricated a fiberglass radiator cowl that extends full width and back to the aft crossover tube, double cockpit controlled louvers on backside of radiator, deflection plate from the front bottom of the engine cowl directing air into the "P51" type radiator inlet. I could have built a Kitfox faster than all this took but, it seems to work. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: radiator additive ? don S > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Malcolmbru@aol.com > > what did don S do to his radiator? ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount --> Kitfox-List message posted by: I had to pull my engine because of a cracked motor mount. Facing the engine the top left verticle downward tube broke of 3/4" above rubber mounts and the right side of the cross tube for the upper mounts had a crack 1/2" in. I put an outer tube layer on each tube to give added strength. Gary M-IV Speedster On Fri Jun 2 1:48 , James Shumaker sent: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net> > >I'll try to get pictures up this weekend also. > > My guess is that it is the shaking of the engine. There is not any distortion associated with the cracks on my engine and they are not cracked all the way around. > > Jim Shumaker > >Paul ppeerenbo@charter.net> wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" > > >I will take a picture this weekend. I have had a carb come off 200 plus hrs >ago, balancing carbs, new carb sockets, and spring kit seams to have taken >care of that. 100 plus hrs ago I did the mod to stiffen the eng mounts >(shorten the bushings). Its more than likely that this has been cracked for >a wile. Its appears to emanate from the weld and I would say it went aft >first and could go unnoticed easily. I am an airline mechanic for 27 years, >including time as a level II NDT, PT, UT, ET & PM. If I had just wiped the >stain and not go further with power coat removal, it would go till the next >annual inspection, this is a very fine tight crack. I do not have a slipper >clutch, and the 912 does shake if you don't get a clean start. The start >procedure that was on this list of using choke with the ignition off and let >sit, then set the throttle seams to work better than the primer system. ( I >took that off) I have never had exhaust or any real fretting problems, when >running the 912 is awsom powerplant. > >Paul N102DG >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jimmie Blackwell" >To: >Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:20 AM >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cracked Eng Mount > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jimmie Blackwell >> >> >> This the third engine mount problem, (including mine), with the 912 UL in >> the last two weeks. I wanted to ask Jim and Paul to post a picture of >> their cracked mounts on Sportflight and let's try to determine if there is >> are some common denominators such as torque or total hours on the mount >> when it fails. Looks like Paul and I had about the same amount of hours >> when the failure occurred. >> >> My rubber engine mount pads had been changed within 15 hours of when my >> engine mount broke. When changing the rubber pads I torgued all the >> hardware according to the latest Model IV building manual. I can't help >> but wonder if the torque settings may be wrong or if there was a batch of >> bad engine mounts produced at some point. Hopefully, some of you with >> more experience and knowledge can help us figure out what is causing the >> engine mount failures before someone hurts their Kitfox or worse, >> themselves. >> >> Jimmie >> James Shumaker wrote: >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: James Shumaker >> >> Paul >> >> I just found a crack on my model III 912ul. It was on the top of the ring >> tube of the dynafocal mount. When I pulled the engine, one of the short >> tubes was also cracked. I have not even done a complete inspection yet. >> Will keep you informed as to what I find. >> >> Even with two cracked tubes on the mounts the engine felt tight and secure >> on the frame. >> >> Jim Shumaker >> >> Paul >> wrote: >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul" >> >> >> >> I have a Model IV with a 912UL 360TT. I found a eng mount crack on the >> short >> tube that connects the top mounts, left side. The crack looked like a >> stain >> on the powered coated mount that wiped off. I cleaned the paint off and >> the >> tube is cracked half way around. Can any one give me information on the >> mount? Wall thickness, any weld repair advice is welcome. >> >> Paul N102DG >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:12 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Pedal torque tube bushings? Question? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 11:09 AM 5/29/2006, you wrote: >Anyone have any better lubricants to use? Well I don't know if it's better, but I've long used Tri-Flon for anything plastic. I used it in my sailing days exclusively. There's a new company, McLube, that also has a lot of lubricants suitable for plastics and other marine applications. http://www.888teammclube.com/frames/sailkote/index.html Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:13 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Nose Wheel Shimmy --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 09:13 AM 5/29/2006, you wrote: >Every sense installing the faring on the nose wheel, I have had a >reoccurring shimmy. Wall occors its shimmyin'. Yur tryin' t fly the plane bakwards, dummy! The wheals sposed to be in da back! (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:13 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: West System Epoxy answer --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 09:53 AM 5/31/2006, you wrote: >Short of dropping the $10k or more to fabricate a prototype tank from >HDLPE or other compatible material, what is the best alternative? I vote: 1) properly designed and fabricated aluminum tanks. 2) Properly designed and fabricated vinyl-ester tanks. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:06 PM PST US From: "A Smith" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars / repairs --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "A Smith" If it was me. I would allways wonder what else was damaged. The correct and safe mode. Replace the wings. Just an idea. Those kind of stresses and damage have not been evaluated. The real story is you have no idea about the condition of the rest of the pieces of the wing. It has not been tested or proven.What about the rest of the plane? Lot of stress to wipe out a wing. We all hear about wing stress loading and failure point. What we do not continue to read is the damage on the rest of the structure to get it to that point. Albert