Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:16 AM - Throttle Body (QSS)
2. 03:41 AM - Running on one wing tank? (Fox5flyer)
3. 04:57 AM - More newbie questions. (Dave G.)
4. 05:52 AM - Re: More newbie questions. (kirk hull)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: Running on one wing tank? (Lowell Fitt)
6. 07:12 AM - Re: More newbie questions. (Lowell Fitt)
7. 07:15 AM - Re: Ethanol Question (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
8. 07:22 AM - Re: Running on one wing tank? (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
9. 07:57 AM - New Web Site (jdmcbean)
10. 08:32 AM - Re: Ethanol Question (Randy Daughenbaugh)
11. 08:51 AM - Re: New Web Site (Don Pearsall)
12. 09:02 AM - Re: New Web Site (jdmcbean)
13. 09:37 AM - Re: New Web Site (JOHN LARSEN)
14. 10:18 AM - Re: Ethanol Question (kitfoxmike)
15. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Don Smythe)
16. 11:57 AM - Re: Ethanol Question (RAY Gignac)
17. 01:36 PM - Re: New Web Site (Michel Verheughe)
18. 01:45 PM - Re: New Web Site (Algate)
19. 01:49 PM - Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Lynn Matteson)
20. 01:54 PM - Re: Ethanol Question (kitfoxmike)
21. 02:50 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Rueb, Duane)
22. 02:50 PM - Jabiru gas WAS: New Web Site (Michel Verheughe)
23. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Lowell Fitt)
24. 03:25 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Lowell Fitt)
25. 03:38 PM - Re: New Web Site (Lowell Fitt)
26. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Don Smythe)
27. 03:55 PM - Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Rexster)
28. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Herbert R Gottelt)
29. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Don Smythe)
30. 05:49 PM - Re: Specs (wingsdown)
31. 06:40 PM - Re: Specs (wingsdown)
32. 07:12 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Lowell Fitt)
33. 07:58 PM - Re: Specs (John Anderson)
34. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol Question (Ron Liebmann)
35. 08:27 PM - Re: More newbie questions.Paint shelf life (Ceashman@aol.com)
36. 08:40 PM - Fuselage Fabric Wrinkles (W & R Beck)
37. 08:49 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Lynn Matteson)
38. 08:52 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Lynn Matteson)
39. 08:53 PM - Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday (Guy Buchanan)
40. 09:10 PM - Re: New Web Site (Lynn Matteson)
41. 09:11 PM - Re: Specs (wingsdown)
42. 09:59 PM - Re: Fuselage Fabric Wrinkles (kurt schrader)
43. 10:55 PM - Re: Specs (kurt schrader)
44. 11:26 PM - Re: Specs (kurt schrader)
45. 11:30 PM - Re: Throttle Body (kurt schrader)
Message 1
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Hi Guys, I have just received my Ellison throttle body back from the USA
after a factory overhaul. In the manual provided I note that
Mogas/premium motor fuel is not recommended for use. I had run my engine
on mogas until my accident and was unaware of any restriction on the use
of particular fuels through these throttle bodies. Can anyone with the
Ellison system comment on how critical this policy on burning only avgas
is and if using mogas is a real no-no. I dont have a problem using avgas
but sourcing it in our area is very difficult and I would like to avoid
using 44 gallon storage drums if at all possible.
Regards
Graeme
Message 2
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| Subject: | Running on one wing tank? |
Rex, that WW2 pilot was correct. Slightly left or right yaw trim will
cause one tank to flow faster than the other. Also, don't forget to
check those cap seals and the mating surface of the tank neck for nicks.
Those vent tubes on the caps produce a constant pressure in the tanks
and if one cap is leaking at the seal area the pressure differential
will cause the fuel from the opposite tank will flow to the leaking
tank.
On my first Kitfox I had this problem and I fooled with it for about a
year before I found that I had a small nick in the neck surface. Some
careful work with a file and fine sand paper solved the problem. After
that, so long as I flew coordinated, both tanks flowed at the same rate.
Hope this helps a little.
Deke in Michigan
----- Original Message -----
From: Rexster
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Running on one wing tank?
Paul,
I usually find my tanks empty at different rates, but not always the
same tank. Here's a theory my buddy and I were recently discussing. If
you don't keep the ball centered, one tank will flow easier than the
other. A WW2 pilot was telling this to us saying that he learned it many
years ago. He said if you have the ball off to one side, one tank will
flow. Move the ball to the other side and the other tank flows. I'm
going to test out this theory next time I fly.
Rex in Michigan
-- "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Question for the group;
My left wing tank aruns out of fuel twice as fast as the right tank in
my
model IV-1200. (I have the poly header tank under the turtledeck cover
fwiw). Is this a common problem?
Also, since I put a shut off valve in line from each wing tank, can I
run
one tank at a time, or do I risk causing fuel starvation because only
the
right tank is actually vented to the header tank?
I thought it was easier to ask those of you that have experienced
these
problems rather than to find out the hard way...
Paul Seehafer
Central Wisconsin
Model IV-1200
912u=======================
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Message 3
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| Subject: | More newbie questions. |
The previous owner of my model IV - 1200 gave me two cans of Loctite
Hysol which are a few years old. He indicated that it was the proper
adhesive for the rib to spar joints that I have to do when replacing the
spar. He also indicated that it may have a limited shelf life although I
don't see that indicated on the cans. Any ideas about this?
I also inherited a few partial cans of Polybrush, Polyspray and
Aerothane which should likely date back about 15 years. All are still
liquid although I have not looked at any of it. Still useful?
Message 4
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| Subject: | More newbie questions. |
I would replace it all. that stuf is not very expensive and not worth the
chance. when it comes to aircraft it is better safe then sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave G.
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:52 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: More newbie questions.
The previous owner of my model IV - 1200 gave me two cans of Loctite Hysol
which are a few years old. He indicated that it was the proper adhesive for
the rib to spar joints that I have to do when replacing the spar. He also
indicated that it may have a limited shelf life although I don't see that
indicated on the cans. Any ideas about this?
I also inherited a few partial cans of Polybrush, Polyspray and Aerothane
which should likely date back about 15 years. All are still liquid although
I have not looked at any of it. Still useful?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Running on one wing tank? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Paul,
I think Rex's explanation is accurate. It is a common phenomenon at least
in the IVs. Having flown behind lots of guys, flying with the wings level
is not that common. Once after a fuel stop and fill-up one of the guys was
losing gas from one of his caps. A fly by showed everything in order and
once he leveled his wings, the spill stopped. We also had a guy we met in
Idaho that did a fuel system teardown at Elk City. He insisted that we help
him measure flow rates from each wing tank. All was in order, he just
wasn't flying right. In my opinion - not to worry.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rexster" <runwayrex@juno.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Running on one wing tank?
Paul,
I usually find my tanks empty at different rates, but not always the same
tank. Here's a theory my buddy and I were recently discussing. If you don't
keep the ball centered, one tank will flow easier than the other. A WW2
pilot was telling this to us saying that he learned it many years ago. He
said if you have the ball off to one side, one tank will flow. Move the ball
to the other side and the other tank flows. I'm going to test out this
theory next time I fly.
Rex in Michigan
-- "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
Question for the group;
My left wing tank aruns out of fuel twice as fast as the right tank in my
model IV-1200. (I have the poly header tank under the turtledeck cover
fwiw). Is this a common problem?
Also, since I put a shut off valve in line from each wing tank, can I run
one tank at a time, or do I risk causing fuel starvation because only the
right tank is actually vented to the header tank?
I thought it was easier to ask those of you that have experienced these
problems rather than to find out the hard way...
Paul Seehafer
Central Wisconsin
Model IV-1200 912ul
Aerocet amphibian
===================================
===================================
===================================
===================================
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: More newbie questions. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
I agree that the Hysol being a structural component, it should be replaced.
For me, though I wouldn't toss it, just label it as expired. I am a
tinkerer at heart and old Hysol as an adhesive is probably better than the
fresh stuff available in hardware stores. I'd try a batch and if hardens
use it in non critical projects.
The Polyfiber products might still be OK with the exception of the hardner
for the Aerothane. Before tossing that stuff contact a Polyfiber
distributor and get the word. It is my understanding that it is the hardner
that has the critical shelf life.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:52 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: More newbie questions.
The previous owner of my model IV - 1200 gave me two cans of Loctite Hysol
which are a few years old. He indicated that it was the proper adhesive for
the rib to spar joints that I have to do when replacing the spar. He also
indicated that it may have a limited shelf life although I don't see that
indicated on the cans. Any ideas about this?
I also inherited a few partial cans of Polybrush, Polyspray and Aerothane
which should likely date back about 15 years. All are still liquid although
I have not looked at any of it. Still useful?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
what about conducting the process at or below 32 degrees?
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Randy,
I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen things
(you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear. You sound
like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think I'll go
with plan "B". However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this moment. Another
old saying, "There is a way"
BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so that flying
behind might be safer? I'm talking about a method that can be home made.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Daughenbaugh
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
Don,
The basics of what you suggest will work. BUT,,,,
You are at risk of making a mistake and loading your tank with a little water if
you dont get a good clean phase separation. Also, as it cools(cold weather
flying), more aqueous layer will separate out. stuff that was in the gasoline
layer at room temperature. Even with the phase separation, there is some ethanol
and water in the gasoline layer and some gasoline in the aqueous layer.
Also, the addition of oil may cause some more water/ethanol layer to separate out.
(If you are feeding a 2-stroke.)
And the last thing that comes to mind immediately is that the difference of 3 octane
points may not be precise. In other words sometimes more than 3 points
loss, sometimes less.
And then you will have some gasoline contaminated vodka to dispose of. Dont drink
it!
But it is a great idea. Just not one that I would fly behind.
Randy
.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
All,
I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it will "Phase
Separate" if too much water is present in the fuel. Someone mentioned this
the other day and I had no idea what he was talking about. One article on
the Rotax 582 said that if phase separation occurs then you have a good amount
of combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your system which won't burn.
Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose about 3 points on the octane
rating. So, 93 octane would be about 90 octane.
This is really reaching out there but, what if a person built himself a rig
where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and "ADD" 1 gallon
of water. Stir slowly and allow to sit for a period of time. Design the
rig so that the bottom portion would be small like a funnel and have a valve
located above the accumulated water/ethanol line. Once the phase separation
occurs and all settles, shut the valve and drain off the water/ethanol. You end
up with pure gasoline minus 3 octane.
What do some of you Chemical Engineers think? I'm willing to test anything.
Don Smythe
Too much time on my hands.
<html><body>
<DIV>what about conducting the process at or below 32 degrees?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Don Smythe"
<dosmythe@cox.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Randy,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> I use an old saying, "For
every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen things (you didn't think of) that
will come out and bite you in the rear. You sound like you have some
very good knowledge on this subject so I think I'll go with plan "B".
However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this moment. Another old saying,
"There is a way"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> BTW, is there a method to
insure a better clean phase separation so that flying behind might be safer?
I'm talking about a method that can be home made.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Don Smythe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Do Not Archive</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=rjdaugh@rapidnet.com href="mailto:rjdaugh@rapidnet.com">Randy Daughenbaugh</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kitfox-list@matronics.com href="mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com">kitfox-list@matronics.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Don,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The basics of what you suggest will work.
BUT,,,,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">You are at risk of making a mistake and
loading your tank with a little water if you dont get a good clean phase separation.
Also, as it cools(cold weather flying), more aqueous layer will separate
out. stuff that was in the gasoline layer at room temperature.
Even with the phase separation, there is some ethanol and water in the gasoline
layer and some gasoline in the aqueous layer.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Also, the addition of oil may cause some
more water/ethanol layer to separate out. (If you are feeding a 2-stroke.)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And the last thing that comes to mind immediately
is that the difference of 3 octane points may not be precise.
In other words sometimes more than 3 points loss, sometimes less.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And then you will have some gasoline contaminated
vodka to dispose of. Dont drink it! </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But it is a great idea. Just not one
that I would fly behind.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Randy</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoAutoSig><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=blue size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt; COLOR: blue">.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times
New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Don Smythe<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:44 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Kitfox List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">All, </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline
and the fact that it will "Phase Separate" if too much water is present
in the fuel. Someone mentioned this the other day and I had no idea
what he was talking about. One article on the Rotax 582 said that if phase
separation occurs then you have a good amount of combined water/ethanol
laying somewhere in your system which won't burn. Also, once phase
separation occurs you will loose about 3 points on the octane rating. So,
93 octane would be about 90 octane.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> This is really reaching out there but, what if
a person built himself a rig where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline
w/ 10% ethanol and "ADD" 1 gallon of water. Stir slowly and allow to sit
for a period of time. Design the rig so that the bottom portion would
be small like a funnel and have a valve located above the accumulated water/ethanol
line. Once the phase separation occurs and all settles, shut the
valve and drain off the water/ethanol. You end up with pure gasoline minus
3 octane.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> What do some of you Chemical Engineers think?
I'm willing to test anything.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Don Smythe</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Too much time on my hands.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></body></html>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Running on one wing tank? |
there have been several theories put forward as to why one tank tends to provide
fuel at a faster rate than the other. It is something that we have all experienced.
I have not heard of nor experienced an actual exhaustion of fuel in
the a particular tank. I will frequently take off with an imbalance because of
the way the plane was parked, but careful attention to coordinated flight and
wings-level it does not take long to balance out. This tells me that there
remains a free flow of fuel between wing tanks/header tank while in flight mode.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Paul Seehafer" <av8rps@tznet.com>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Seehafer"
>
> Question for the group;
>
> My left wing tank aruns out of fuel twice as fast as the right tank in my
> model IV-1200. (I have the poly header tank under the turtledeck cover
> fwiw). Is this a common problem?
>
> Also, since I put a shut off valve in line from each wing tank, can I run
> one tank at a time, or do I risk causing fuel starvation because only the
> right tank is actually vented to the header tank?
>
> I thought it was easier to ask those of you that have experienced these
> problems rather than to find out the hard way...
>
>
> Paul Seehafer
> Central Wisconsin
> Model IV-1200 912ul
> Aerocet amphibian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>there have been several theories put forward as to why one tank tends to provide
fuel at a faster rate than the other. It is something that we have
all experienced. I have not heard of nor experienced an actual exhaustion
of fuel in the a particular tank. I will frequently take off
with an imbalance because of the way the plane was parked, but careful attention
to coordinated flight and wings-level it does not take long to balance out.
This tells me that there remains a free flow of fuel between wing tanks/header
tank while in flight mode.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kerr</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Paul Seehafer"
<av8rps@tznet.com> <BR><BR>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by:
"Paul Seehafer" <AV8RPS@TZNET.COM><BR>> <BR>> Question for the group;
<BR>> <BR>> My left wing tank aruns out of fuel twice as fast as the right
tank in my <BR>> model IV-1200. (I have the poly header tank under the turtledeck
cover <BR>> fwiw). Is this a common problem? <BR>> <BR>> Also,
since I put a shut off valve in line from each wing tank, can I run <BR>>
one tank at a time, or do I risk causing fuel starvation because only the <BR>>
right tank is actually vented to the header tank? <BR>> <BR>> I
thought it was easier to ask those of you that have experienced these <BR>>
problems rather than to find out the hard way... <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Paul
Seehafer <BR>> Central Wisconsin <BR>> Mode
l IV-1
tronic
Message 9
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Hey guys,
Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already know
that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
<http://www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com/>
Many thanks to Rich Cunningham (sp) , a fellow Kitfox driver. His help was
instrumental in getting the website up quickly.
Im sure everyone is wondering what is going on Well here is a short
brief:
Things have been very busy. We are currently working in the existing
facility. We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up
production. We will be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look
forward to seeing everyone there. Oshkosh is reserved and we are in booth
#426 in the North Aircraft Display.
We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
<http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
--
Message 10
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| Subject: | Ethanol Question |
Don,
This is a common chemical process operation. In correctly designed
equipment it can be consistently successful if certain complications don't
appear. Also, chemical plants have analytical QC labs to keep an eye on the
process.
The worst complication is contamination with surfactants (soaps or
detergents) that stabilize emulsions. Milk is a stable emulsion. It should
separate into two layers, but it doesn't (Usually!). Gas companies often
have additive packages that they add to gas so they can justify charging
high prices. - maybe to keep fuel injectors clean.. If these stabilize the
emulsion, you will have a hard time getting phase separation.
It is an intriguing idea. Maybe we should be entrepreneurial and design
small units to locate at FBO's. These could be complete with instructions,
small QC kits and mole sieves swing units to dry the gas after separation.
(This would make the gas safe to use a cold temperatures.) But it might be
easier to buy the gas BEFORE they add the alcohol.
Randy
.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
Randy,
I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a dozen
things (you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.
You sound like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think
I'll go with plan "B". However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this
moment. Another old saying, "There is a way"
BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so that
flying behind might be safer? I'm talking about a method that can be home
made.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy <mailto:rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> Daughenbaugh
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
Don,
The basics of what you suggest will work. BUT,,,,
You are at risk of making a mistake and loading your tank with a little
water if you don't get a good clean phase separation. Also, as it
cools(cold weather flying), more aqueous layer will separate out. - stuff
that was in the gasoline layer at room temperature. Even with the phase
separation, there is some ethanol and water in the gasoline layer and some
gasoline in the aqueous layer.
Also, the addition of oil may cause some more water/ethanol layer to
separate out. (If you are feeding a 2-stroke.)
And the last thing that comes to mind immediately is that the difference of
3 octane points may not be precise. In other words sometimes more than 3
points loss, sometimes less.
And then you will have some gasoline contaminated vodka to dispose of.
Don't drink it!
But it is a great idea. Just not one that I would fly behind.
Randy
.
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
All,
I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it will
"Phase Separate" if too much water is present in the fuel. Someone
mentioned this the other day and I had no idea what he was talking about.
One article on the Rotax 582 said that if phase separation occurs then you
have a good amount of combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your
system which won't burn. Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose
about 3 points on the octane rating. So, 93 octane would be about 90
octane.
This is really reaching out there but, what if a person built himself a
rig where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and
"ADD" 1 gallon of water. Stir slowly and allow to sit for a period of time.
Design the rig so that the bottom portion would be small like a funnel and
have a valve located above the accumulated water/ethanol line. Once the
phase separation occurs and all settles, shut the valve and drain off the
water/ethanol. You end up with pure gasoline minus 3 octane.
What do some of you Chemical Engineers think? I'm willing to test
anything.
Don Smythe
Too much time on my hands.
Message 11
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John the web site looks great! It has a lot of potential and I am sure it
will grow.
BUT there is no sales information. How does a potential builder buy a
Kitfox? As you know, buyers want to know how much $$ and when will I get it
after I buy.
Congratulations again. We are all rooting for you to have great success.
Don Pearsall
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
Hey guys,
Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already know
that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
<http://www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com/>
Many thanks to Rich Cunningham (sp) , a fellow Kitfox driver. His help was
instrumental in getting the website up quickly.
I'm sure everyone is wondering what is going on. Well here is a short
brief:
Things have been very busy. We are currently working in the existing
facility. We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up
production. We will be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look
forward to seeing everyone there. Oshkosh is reserved and we are in booth
#426 in the North Aircraft Display.
We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
<http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 12
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Its all coming Thought it important to get something up sooner rather then
later.. for now.. give a call..
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
<http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Don Pearsall
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
John the web site looks great! It has a lot of potential and I am sure it
will grow.
BUT there is no sales information. How does a potential builder buy a
Kitfox? As you know, buyers want to know how much $$ and when will I get it
after I buy.
Congratulations again. We are all rooting for you to have great success.
Don Pearsall
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
Hey guys,
Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already know
that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
<http://www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com/>
Many thanks to Rich Cunningham (sp) , a fellow Kitfox driver. His help was
instrumental in getting the website up quickly.
Im sure everyone is wondering what is going on Well here is a short
brief:
Things have been very busy. We are currently working in the existing
facility. We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up
production. We will be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look
forward to seeing everyone there. Oshkosh is reserved and we are in booth
#426 in the North Aircraft Display.
We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
<http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
--
Message 13
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Don
Please take me off the list. Thanks for a good season
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Pearsall
Sent: 6/7/2006 10:08:11 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
John the web site looks great! It has a lot of potential and I am sure it will
grow.
BUT there is no sales information. How does a potential builder buy a Kitfox? As
you know, buyers want to know how much $$ and when will I get it after I buy.
Congratulations again. We are all rooting for you to have great success.
Don Pearsall
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
Hey guys,
Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already know that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
Many thanks to Rich Cunningham (sp) , a fellow Kitfox driver. His help was instrumental
in getting the website up quickly.
Im sure everyone is wondering what is going on Well here is a short brief:
Things have been very busy. We are currently working in the existing facility.
We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up production. We will
be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look forward to seeing everyone
there. Oshkosh is reserved and we are in booth #426 in the North Aircraft
Display.
We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
"The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
let me ask these questions, is this problem mainly because of the use of a 2 stroke
and the other, is the problem because the fuel will be sitting too long,
hence old fuel. Answer to both, first the four stroke and second, fly two hours
a day. [Laughing]
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=39206#39206
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
I'm concerned that Ethanol might cause damage to many components of both 2
and 4 stroke systems. For example, I just purchased new filters elements w/
"O" rings for the Puralator glass filters. Are the "O" rings compatible
with Ethanol??? How about the diaphragm in the Mik fuel pumps??? Not to
mention the fiberglass tanks, low fuel sensors, gascalators, fuel primer
and the list goes on.....
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>
> let me ask these questions, is this problem mainly because of the use of a
> 2 stroke and the other, is the problem because the fuel will be sitting
> too long, hence old fuel. Answer to both, first the four stroke and
> second, fly two hours a day. [Laughing]
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
> http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=39206#39206
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" <kitfoxpilot@msn.com>
I thought the big problem with ethanol or the like was it would disolve the
coating in the fiberglass tanks thus causing them to leak!
Ray
>From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
>To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:31:23 -0600
>
>Don,
>
>This is a common chemical process operation. In correctly designed
>equipment it can be consistently successful if certain complications don't
>appear. Also, chemical plants have analytical QC labs to keep an eye on
>the
>process.
>
>
>The worst complication is contamination with surfactants (soaps or
>detergents) that stabilize emulsions. Milk is a stable emulsion. It
>should
>separate into two layers, but it doesn't (Usually!). Gas companies often
>have additive packages that they add to gas so they can justify charging
>high prices. - maybe to keep fuel injectors clean.. If these stabilize
>the
>emulsion, you will have a hard time getting phase separation.
>
>
>It is an intriguing idea. Maybe we should be entrepreneurial and design
>small units to locate at FBO's. These could be complete with instructions,
>small QC kits and mole sieves swing units to dry the gas after separation.
>(This would make the gas safe to use a cold temperatures.) But it might be
>easier to buy the gas BEFORE they add the alcohol.
>
>
>Randy
>
>
>.
>
>
> _____
>
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe
>Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:02 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
>
>
>Randy,
>
> I use an old saying, "For every good idea on a Kitfox there are a
>dozen
>things (you didn't think of) that will come out and bite you in the rear.
>You sound like you have some very good knowledge on this subject so I think
>I'll go with plan "B". However, I don't have a plan "B" right at this
>moment. Another old saying, "There is a way"
>
> BTW, is there a method to insure a better clean phase separation so
>that
>flying behind might be safer? I'm talking about a method that can be home
>made.
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Don Smythe
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>From: Randy <mailto:rjdaugh@rapidnet.com> Daughenbaugh
>
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:16 PM
>
>Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
>
>
>Don,
>
>The basics of what you suggest will work. BUT,,,,
>
>
>You are at risk of making a mistake and loading your tank with a little
>water if you don't get a good clean phase separation. Also, as it
>cools(cold weather flying), more aqueous layer will separate out. - stuff
>that was in the gasoline layer at room temperature. Even with the phase
>separation, there is some ethanol and water in the gasoline layer and some
>gasoline in the aqueous layer.
>
>
>Also, the addition of oil may cause some more water/ethanol layer to
>separate out. (If you are feeding a 2-stroke.)
>
>
>And the last thing that comes to mind immediately is that the difference of
>3 octane points may not be precise. In other words sometimes more than 3
>points loss, sometimes less.
>
>
>And then you will have some gasoline contaminated vodka to dispose of.
>Don't drink it!
>
>
>But it is a great idea. Just not one that I would fly behind.
>
>
>Randy
>
>
>.
>
>
> _____
>
>
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe
>Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:44 PM
>To: Kitfox List
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol Question
>
>
>All,
>
> I've been reading about this Ethanol gasoline and the fact that it
>will
>"Phase Separate" if too much water is present in the fuel. Someone
>mentioned this the other day and I had no idea what he was talking about.
>One article on the Rotax 582 said that if phase separation occurs then you
>have a good amount of combined water/ethanol laying somewhere in your
>system which won't burn. Also, once phase separation occurs you will loose
>about 3 points on the octane rating. So, 93 octane would be about 90
>octane.
>
> This is really reaching out there but, what if a person built himself
>a
>rig where he could pour in say 5 gallons of gasoline w/ 10% ethanol and
>"ADD" 1 gallon of water. Stir slowly and allow to sit for a period of
>time.
>Design the rig so that the bottom portion would be small like a funnel and
>have a valve located above the accumulated water/ethanol line. Once the
>phase separation occurs and all settles, shut the valve and drain off the
>water/ethanol. You end up with pure gasoline minus 3 octane.
>
> What do some of you Chemical Engineers think? I'm willing to test
>anything.
>
>
>Don Smythe
>
>Too much time on my hands.
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: New Web Site |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Very nice web site, John! Let me know if you need a small Flash
animation, it would be my pleasure to help you.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 18
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Algate" <algate@attglobal.net>
Michel
Are you running AVGAS or Mogas in your Jabiu
Gary
Gary
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Very nice web site, John! Let me know if you need a small Flash
animation, it would be my pleasure to help you.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 19
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| Subject: | Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in
and Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters,
have fun at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to
the east coast might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual
all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual
"east-of-the-Rockies" Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen
later) for fun and whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in
is Sunday only) which is described on sportflight.com under
fly-in/airshows. (The file is HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast
is held in the EAA hangar...you won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd
like to see as many Kitfoxes as possible. Let's try to out-number the
metal monsters, if possible. If you don't have a Kitfox, jump into your
favorite experimental (or whatever) and come join us.
There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25
automobile trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight
jacket to be raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other
food is available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
Questions? Give me a holler....
Lynn
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
I went and changed all my hoses to injection hose, ff, I only have clear paper
filters, ya I know, but I change them every oil change, cheap. I regularly check
the carbs for water, I'm constantly checking all systems on the airplane, I
replaced the fuel pump at the ending of last year(600hrs) didn't want to trust
it anymore. I did ask lockwood if the pump was ok for ethanol and they said
it was safe. I have the blue hose where there isn't steel line from the tanks
to the firewall and injection line from there to the rest. I fly on the average
of 50hrs a month and I haven't had any trouble. When I fly in the winter I
switch to 100ll and tcp.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=39230#39230
Message 21
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| Subject: | Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
Lynn:
Here on the left coast we have enough problems with scheduling
already, since June 10 is the date of both Lowell Fitt's barbecue fly-in
and the EAA Golden West fly-in at Marysville. Although it is probably
not practical for one airplane to make a showing at both, due to
arrival/departure control, by driving to them, one could do so. I am
considering it, especially since I am not through with either my
checkout in mine nor the service session that it is now undergoing. I
know this is not what it is really all about, but wouldn't that be
better than missing one or the other or both?
Duane Rueb
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in
and Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters,
have fun at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to
the east coast might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual
all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual
"east-of-the-Rockies" Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen
later) for fun and whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in
is Sunday only) which is described on sportflight.com under
fly-in/airshows. (The file is HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast
is held in the EAA hangar...you won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd
like to see as many Kitfoxes as possible. Let's try to out-number the
metal monsters, if possible. If you don't have a Kitfox, jump into your
favorite experimental (or whatever) and come join us.
There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25
automobile trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight
jacket to be raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other
food is available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
Questions? Give me a holler....
Lynn
Message 22
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| Subject: | Jabiru gas WAS: New Web Site |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Jun 7, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Algate wrote:
> Are you running AVGAS or Mogas in your Jabiu
Both, Gary. My Jabiru seems to be happy with both and I am happy with
my Jabiru! :-)
Incidentally, a hangar tale around here says that AVGAS is on its way
out. Apparently there is too little of it sold to justify its
production. The rumour says they are looking at a new type of gas that
will be used by aircraft and cars. I hope it will be without ethanol.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Don,
All valid issues. I remember while in the early building phase, skystar
offered replacement o-rings for the fuel valve - Viton for the supplied
N-Buna for those using Mogas. My guess is that since the filter you are
using is designed for mogas it will be compatible.
I just went on line to find a metric o-ring for a pressure washer. O-rings
are available in numerous materials and cheap. The $.75 o-ring locally goes
for $8.00 per fifty on line. A friend here has the dimensions of the Rotax
rocker cover o-rings and they are pennies compared to the dollars for the
"genuine" Rotax part. Can't help with the diaphragms and other proprietary
parts, but since there are so many Rotax engines out there - Seadoo, Skidoo
and aviation, my gurss is that rather than Rotax having all these engines
retired, they are hard at work developing servicable parts.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
> I'm concerned that Ethanol might cause damage to many components of both 2
> and 4 stroke systems. For example, I just purchased new filters elements
> w/ "O" rings for the Puralator glass filters. Are the "O" rings
> compatible with Ethanol??? How about the diaphragm in the Mik fuel
> pumps??? Not to mention the fiberglass tanks, low fuel sensors,
> gascalators, fuel primer and the list goes on.....
>
> Don Smythe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:15 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>>
>> let me ask these questions, is this problem mainly because of the use of
>> a 2 stroke and the other, is the problem because the fuel will be sitting
>> too long, hence old fuel. Answer to both, first the four stroke and
>> second, fly two hours a day. [Laughing]
>>
>> --------
>> kitfoxmike
>> kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
>> http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=39206#39206
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Thanks for the plug for our fly-in. If the forcast is accurate, we appear
to be in the running for the best weather ever - high 80's and clear with
light winds.
I wish I could be at the Michigan event and hope that another later in the
Summer might be in order. I really enjoy putting faces on the names I have
come to recognize here on the list. I have a mental picture of all of you,
but so far not once have I been close in my mental guess, but maybe
someday...
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in and
> Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters, have fun
> at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to the east coast
> might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual all-you-can-eat
> pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual "east-of-the-Rockies"
> Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen later) for fun and
> whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in is Sunday only) which
> is described on sportflight.com under fly-in/airshows. (The file is
> HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast is held in the EAA hangar...you
> won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd like to see as many Kitfoxes as
> possible. Let's try to out-number the metal monsters, if possible. If you
> don't have a Kitfox, jump into your favorite experimental (or whatever)
> and come join us.
>
> There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25 automobile
> trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight jacket to be
> raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other food is
> available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
>
> Questions? Give me a holler....
>
> Lynn
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: New Web Site |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Good work, John. As before, I can only imagine how full your days are.
Thanks for mentioning our Cameron park fly-in. Kay and I just got back from
food shopping. Thanks to her, it comes off. I susppect most of us have
wonderful partners that spend a lot of time making us look good. My thanks
to them all big time.
Lowell
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jdmcbean" <jdmcbean@cableone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: New Web Site
> Hey guys,
> Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already know
> that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
> <http://www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com/>
>
> Many thanks to Rich Cunningham (sp) , a fellow Kitfox driver. His help
> was
> instrumental in getting the website up quickly.
>
> I'm sure everyone is wondering what is going on. Well here is a short
> brief:
>
> Things have been very busy. We are currently working in the existing
> facility. We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up
> production. We will be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look
> forward to seeing everyone there. Oshkosh is reserved and we are in booth
> #426 in the North Aircraft Display.
>
> We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
>
> Fly Safe !!
> John & Debra McBean
> www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com www.sportplanellc.com
> <http://www.sportplanellc.com/>
> "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground"
>
>
> --
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Lowell old Buddy,
You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious on
these issues and beat them to death a bit. I believe that some parts of the
US have been using Ethanol for some time. Are there people out there
pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?
Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his Cessna.
He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol. I believe the STC
say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get you must switch back
to 100LL.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
> "genuine" Rotax part. Can't help with the diaphragms and other
> proprietary parts, but since there are so many Rotax engines out there -
> Seadoo, Skidoo and aviation, my gurss is that rather than Rotax having all
> these engines retired, they are hard at work developing servicable parts.
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
Lynn,
I plan to be there Sunday! I'll be coming from 57D (Ray Community) w
hich is about 20 miles north of Detroit. We're pretty close to Selfridge
Air National Guard base. Anybody else going?
Rex Phelps Model 3
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in
and
> Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters, have f
un
> at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to the east c
oast
> might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual all-you-can-eat
> pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual "east-of-the-Rockies"
> Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen later) for fun and
> whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in is Sunday only) whi
ch
> is described on sportflight.com under fly-in/airshows. (The file is
> HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast is held in the EAA hangar...yo
u
> won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd like to see as many Kitfoxes as
> possible. Let's try to out-number the metal monsters, if possible. If
you
> don't have a Kitfox, jump into your favorite experimental (or whatever
)
> and come join us.
>
> There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25 automo
bile
> trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight jacket to
be
> raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other food is
> available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
>
> Questions? Give me a holler....
>
> Lynn
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
<html><P><BR>Lynn,</P>
<P> I plan to be there Sunday! I'll be coming from 57D
(Ray Community) which is about 20 miles north of Detroit. We're pretty
close to Selfridge Air National Guard base. Anybody else going?</P>
<P>Rex Phelps Model 3</P>
<P> </P>
<P><BR><BR>> --> Kitfox-List message posted&nb
sp;by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net><BR>><BR>
> Don't forget that the Jackson, Michig
an (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in and <BR>
> Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 1
1. All you west-coasters, have fun <
BR>> at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, a
nd those of you closer to the east&nb
sp;coast <BR>> might want to think abou
t coming to the 38th Annual all-you-can-ea
t <BR>> pancake breakfast, combined with&nbs
p;the 1st annual "east-of-the-Rockies" <BR>> 
;Kitfox get-together (official name to be
chosen later) for fun and <BR>> whateve
r. This is an all-weekend event (the
fly-in is Sunday only) which <BR>> is&n
bsp;described on sportflight.com under fly-in/airsho
ws. (The file is <BR>> HUGE...sorry abo
ut that.) The breakfast is held in th
e EAA hangar...you <BR>> won't get wet&
nbsp;perchance it rains. We'd like to see&
nbsp;as many Kitfoxes as <BR>> possible.&nbs
p;Let's try to out-number the metal monste
rs, if possible. If you <BR>> don't&nbs
p;have a Kitfox, jump into your favorite&n
bsp;experimental (or whatever) <BR>> and com
e join us.<BR>><BR>> There will be c
ars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 2
5 automobile <BR>> trophies to be award
ed, as well as a genuine leather flig
ht jacket to be <BR>> raffled off
at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast,&nb
sp;other food is <BR>> available on-site,&nb
sp;and DJ music will be played.<BR>><BR>>
Questions? Give me a holler....<BR>><BR>>
; Lynn<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<BR>> http://wiki.matronics.com<B
R>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>&n
========================
sp; - The 
p;Matronics List Features Navigator to browse<B
bsp;& Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,<BR
========================
========================
sp; - NEW MATRO
nbsp; &
nbsp; &
nbsp; &
========================
========================
- List Contribution Web Site
p; &nbs
p; -Mat
========================
=======================<BR
><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR></P></html>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
Don, and all other 10% ethanol users:
I am using this stuff for over 4 years without any problems in the Chicago area.
Herbert Gottelt
Mount Prospect, IL
M4-1200,912UL.
Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe"
Lowell old Buddy,
You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious on
these issues and beat them to death a bit. I believe that some parts of the
US have been using Ethanol for some time. Are there people out there
pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?
Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his Cessna.
He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol. I believe the STC
say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get you must switch back
to 100LL.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt"
> "genuine" Rotax part. Can't help with the diaphragms and other
> proprietary parts, but since there are so many Rotax engines out there -
> Seadoo, Skidoo and aviation, my gurss is that rather than Rotax having all
> these engines retired, they are hard at work developing servicable parts.
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
Herbert,
Thanks, I guess that's good news. I assume you've been using the 10%
ethanol?
How about any 2 strokers with a similar report?
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Herbert R Gottelt
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
Don, and all other 10% ethanol users:
I am using this stuff for over 4 years without any problems in the
Chicago area.
Herbert Gottelt
Mount Prospect, IL
M4-1200,912UL.
Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe"
Lowell old Buddy,
You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious
on
these issues and beat them to death a bit. I believe that some parts
of the
US have been using Ethanol for some time. Are there people out there
pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?
Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his
Cessna.
He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol. I believe
the STC
say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get
Message 30
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Boy 1/4 sure seems small. Did you do a flow test. Under full power you
can flow as much as 16.5 GPH maybe more. With that 1/4 line I could see
how you might have pressure but lack adequate volume/ flow. Minimum
would be 3/8 to my thinking.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
--> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
Right now it is set so that the primary pump gives its
4-6 psi and the B/U pump comes on when pressure drops
to 3.5 psi for any reason in flight.
Before this setup, I ran one pump in flight, except
T/O and landing, and found the pressure could get down
below 2 psi under high power on one pump.
In neither case could I catch the fuel pressure being
the cause. Not ruled out, but EGT was good for the
entire flight, or not good, and fuel pressure varied
with power, not per flight.
I plan to revamp the fuel system, tank to engine, and
see if I can stumble across a cure. One size larger
tubing too. 1/4th inch ID for the smallest line right
now.
Kurt S.
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
> Are you leaving the fuel pump on all the time? If
> you are not seeing 5
> psi all the time that could be a possible problem.
> With the pump off you
> will see higher EGTs. Has that been your experience
> as well.
>
> Rick
__________________________________________________
Message 31
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Well we can not count all the stock exhaust cross over failures until we
got the new SS set. I think I had just the right number of fingers
though. 350 hours seems about right, and it was an exhaust valve that
snapped just below the scallop number 3 cylinder. That was stock
components. SS with bronze guides is the only way to go for the boost
folks. If I were doing another set of heads I would coat at least coat
the exhaust runners and ports with Swain coating. The beat would be a
complete coating of the combustion chamber in the heads and all exposed
aluminum. I did the SS valve crowns as well.
OK misread the whole dang post.
Compression was good from the get go and only improved marginally over
time. I don't remember the numbers but I want to say 140 all around. No
real blow by on new engine. I wish I had kept better notes. I also had
the block, rings and pistons cryogenic treated so who knows. I was
really looking forward to a 3000hr TBO :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
--> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
About when did your Soob break in? What were the
symptoms? Temps, blowby oil accumulated, power?
I heard that about 300 hrs is the magic number. Since
yours was a superior engine, I understand results may
vary. :-)
Kurt S.
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
> Thanks. Yes some folks don't realize that the engine
> actually breathes
> quite a lot of air through breather vents. I drained
> them about ever
> other oil change or 50 hours. The more blow- by you
> have the more that is accumulated in the separators.
__________________________________________________
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
.Thanks for the post, Duane. And sorry for the confict created by the
overlapping date.
I might mention some of the thinking regarding our date. First, It has
always been on the second Saturday in June with one exception. One year
FOCA (Friends of Cameron Park Airport) scheduled thier street fair on the
second Saturday. We had six months notice and decided that safety concerns
dictated a date with fewer non flyers on the airpark street / taxiways.
Golden West has bounced around a bit on dates as has their venue and they
have not been in the habit of announcing dates early. They seem to still be
somewhat in the gestation stage.
I had heard rumors in the past that they wanted us to feed Kitfoxes to their
fly-in, but until this year it was only rumors. I did get a call a couple
of months ago from a woman I knew from the Hangtown Chapter of EAA asking if
I could do just that. As politely as I could, I asked what there would be
there for us, i.e, why will we want to go. I got no specific response.
Then I gave my reason for the question. About 4 years ago, I took my
airplane there early on Friday and left it until late Sunday afternoon. I
entered my Model IV for judging. I probably had as many judge initials on
my prop card as any other airplane there. I was pretty excited. When they
announced the awards they were in four divisions as I recall, Warbird,
Certified, Antique and Homebuilt. They awarded First, Second and Third
places in the four catagories. The winners in the homebuilt division were
all professionally finished plastic airplanes - you all have seem them.
Incidentally, I don't recall another Kitfox there, I drove home each night,
but spent all three days there.
I asked if this year there would be a tube and fabric judging division, she
said, "I doubt it". She then said that if I were to promise a certain
number of Kitfoxes next year, she would promise a judging award for our
type. In other words it seemed that if we promised to appear, they would do
something for us. Sort of reverse marketing - we have to market ourselves to
them.
This woman is active on the Lacair builders list - actually her husband -
and her next comment didn't surprise me. She said that the homebuilt
movement is moved by the most popular airplanes and that is why there was
nothing planned for the low and slow types. A quick check of the Golden
West website confirmed my suspicions. Their board of directors is dominated
by builders and owners of flight level airplanes. Pardon the venting, but
has anyone compared Sport Pilot and Kitplanes magazines lately? We are
being pretty much ignored by the powers in EAA.
I considered this a bit and sort of concluded that the folks that can build
and fly $200,000 airplanes are likely to be the ones that like to sit on the
boards of organizations and it is not too curious that they see what they
see, think what they think and get what they want. I did agree to work with
Golden West, I don't know how yet, to make the event more Kitfox friendly
next year. If it requires a date change for us, I don't see that as a
problem. But at present, I really don't see much of a conflict as they are
two quite different events.
Lowell
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
>
> Lynn:
>
> Here on the left coast we have enough problems with scheduling
> already, since June 10 is the date of both Lowell Fitt's barbecue fly-in
> and the EAA Golden West fly-in at Marysville. Although it is probably
> not practical for one airplane to make a showing at both, due to
> arrival/departure control, by driving to them, one could do so. I am
> considering it, especially since I am not through with either my
> checkout in mine nor the service session that it is now undergoing. I
> know this is not what it is really all about, but wouldn't that be
> better than missing one or the other or both?
>
> Duane Rueb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:50 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in
> and Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters,
> have fun at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to
> the east coast might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual
> all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual
> "east-of-the-Rockies" Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen
> later) for fun and whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in
> is Sunday only) which is described on sportflight.com under
> fly-in/airshows. (The file is HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast
> is held in the EAA hangar...you won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd
> like to see as many Kitfoxes as possible. Let's try to out-number the
> metal monsters, if possible. If you don't have a Kitfox, jump into your
> favorite experimental (or whatever) and come join us.
>
> There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25
> automobile trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight
> jacket to be raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other
> food is available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
>
> Questions? Give me a holler....
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
Message 33
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
This is new news to me Rick, you saying that the stock soob turbo valves not
good? I have the stock (original) valve gear still fitted?? John
From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Well we can not count all the stock exhaust cross over failures until we
got the new SS set. I think I had just the right number of fingers
though. 350 hours seems about right, and it was an exhaust valve that
snapped just below the scallop number 3 cylinder. That was stock
components. SS with bronze guides is the only way to go for the boost
folks. If I were doing another set of heads I would coat at least coat
the exhaust runners and ports with Swain coating. The beat would be a
complete coating of the combustion chamber in the heads and all exposed
aluminum. I did the SS valve crowns as well.
OK misread the whole dang post.
Compression was good from the get go and only improved marginally over
time. I don't remember the numbers but I want to say 140 all around. No
real blow by on new engine. I wish I had kept better notes. I also had
the block, rings and pistons cryogenic treated so who knows. I was
really looking forward to a 3000hr TBO :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
--> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
About when did your Soob break in? What were the
symptoms? Temps, blowby oil accumulated, power?
I heard that about 300 hrs is the magic number. Since
yours was a superior engine, I understand results may
vary. :-)
Kurt S.
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thanks. Yes some folks don't realize that the engine
>actually breathes
>quite a lot of air through breather vents. I drained
>them about ever
>other oil change or 50 hours. The more blow- by you
>have the more that is accumulated in the separators.
__________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Question |
I live by Herb and I have been using 10% ethanol for years too with no
effect on my tanks or performance. I fly a greyhead 582.
Ron N55KF
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
Herbert,
Thanks, I guess that's good news. I assume you've been using the
10% ethanol?
How about any 2 strokers with a similar report?
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Herbert R Gottelt
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol Question
Don, and all other 10% ethanol users:
I am using this stuff for over 4 years without any problems in the
Chicago area.
Herbert Gottelt
Mount Prospect, IL
M4-1200,912UL.
Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe"
Lowell old Buddy,
You are probably right but it doesn't hurt to get a little curious
on
these issues and beat them to death a bit. I believe that some
parts of the
US have been using Ethanol for some time. Are there people out
there
pumping Gasoline W/10% Ethanol and having no problems?
Was talking to a guy yesterday that has an auto fuel STC for his
Cessna.
He's still buying auto gas like crazy with 10% Ethanol. I believe
the STC
say's, "NO" Ethanol and if Ethanol is all you can get
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: More newbie questions.Paint shelf life |
>I also inherited a few partial cans of Polybrush, Polyspray and Aerothane
>which should likely date back about 15 years. All are still liquid although
>I have not looked at any of it. Still useful?
Dave.
When it comes to paint product shelf life, the hardener (if it does not have
accelerators) normally a shelf life of 2 years.
The color (Aerothane) this usually has a shelf life of 4 years.
These times are usually based at storage of unopened cans and at room
temperature or 70 degrees F.
If the cans have been opened and or the temperature has increased to 90
degrees F, you can expect the product to have lost some of it's desired qualities.
These would be poor application, orange peel or seedy, poor drying, little or
no curing of the top coat, poor gloss, poor resistance to UV (fading or micro
cracks) to name a couple of potential problems.
I don't know what the exact shelf life is of the Polyfiber products are, but
they should be close to what I described.
If the cans have been opened and it was not you that opened them and stored
them. I would take them to someplace that will accept them as waste.
Agreeing with others, structural adhesive, your life is on the line. The
paint products, you really don't want things messing up after all the hard work.
Be careful guys. If you are intending to buy a partial completed project and
he says he has lots of the original paint products that came with the kit
(many years ago) First consider if you can and want to use it. If it ends up that
you do not use it it is difficult to get rid of.
Eric. C IV, Atlanta.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Fuselage Fabric Wrinkles |
Hello Folks:
I am an old time member of the Kitfox List from about 8 years ago; just
returned to the US and newly signed up. I need some advice.
A few days ago, after having folded the wings on my 310-hour Model IV
1050, I noticed some subtle longitudinal (front-to-back) wrinkles on the
top fuselage fabric, in the bay that starts about a foot in front of the
vertical stabilizer. I have never seen them before and cannot think of
any reason, or abuse to the plane, that could have caused them to
appear. The wrinkles smooth out a bit when the wings are swung out for
flight. It is surely not temperature related, and no one to my knowledge
has ham-fistedly handled the plane in a way that would bend tubing. It
is always hangared and my hangar mate's plane has been off getting its
annual and some new paint for the last
2 weeks.
My initial thought was that I had a broken weld somewhere, tempered
somewhat by the knowledge that I have not heard of this happening to any
other Kitfox. I spent an hour yesterday visually looking over, then
pulling and pushing on the individual tubes inside the fuselage that I
could reach from the opening below the turtledeck and through inspection
holes, and pushing against those I could not reach with a wooden stick.
I found none loose. Then a Pitts owner and I spent about an hour trying
to torque the fuselage weldment any way we could, by the vertical and
horizontal tails, pushing down on the fuselage, by the wingtips with
wings out, by the wings when folded, etc., and we could not find any
combination that would increase or make any visually discernible
difference in the wrinkles, nor were there any abnormal airframe sounds
or clicking. These crude tests don't eliminate the possibility of a
broken weld but do diminish it.
The wrinkles are to me a rather strange anomaly -suddenly there for no
apparent reason.
Has anyone on the List come across anything similar? Any advice on
further checks I could make?
Thanks in advance.
Robert Beck
PS Hi Ron!
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Yup, drive to both of 'em, Duane, and when the sun goes down, head on
out to the sprint car races at Marysville...that's what I'd do if I
still lived out there! Then grab the red-eye flight to DTW, give me a
holler, and I'll pick you up and we'll go the JXN breakfast together.
And if that's not enough of a crowded weekend, we could go on up to
Otsego Lake for the annual Splash-in, and see all the Widgeons and
other float planes.
Lynn
On Wednesday, June 7, 2006, at 05:49 PM, Rueb, Duane wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane"
> <ruebd@skymail.csus.edu>
>
> Lynn:
>
> Here on the left coast we have enough problems with scheduling
> already, since June 10 is the date of both Lowell Fitt's barbecue
> fly-in
> and the EAA Golden West fly-in at Marysville. Although it is probably
> not practical for one airplane to make a showing at both, due to
> arrival/departure control, by driving to them, one could do so. I am
> considering it, especially since I am not through with either my
> checkout in mine nor the service session that it is now undergoing. I
> know this is not what it is really all about, but wouldn't that be
> better than missing one or the other or both?
>
> Duane Rueb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:50 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Don't forget that the Jackson, Michigan (JXN) Pancake Breakfast Fly-in
> and Cruise-in happens this Sunday, June 11. All you west-coasters,
> have fun at Lowell's Cameron Park fly-in, and those of you closer to
> the east coast might want to think about coming to the 38th Annual
> all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast, combined with the 1st annual
> "east-of-the-Rockies" Kitfox get-together (official name to be chosen
> later) for fun and whatever. This is an all-weekend event (the fly-in
> is Sunday only) which is described on sportflight.com under
> fly-in/airshows. (The file is HUGE...sorry about that.) The breakfast
> is held in the EAA hangar...you won't get wet perchance it rains. We'd
> like to see as many Kitfoxes as possible. Let's try to out-number the
> metal monsters, if possible. If you don't have a Kitfox, jump into your
> favorite experimental (or whatever) and come join us.
>
> There will be cars, motorcycles, trucks, model airplanes.... 25
> automobile trophies to be awarded, as well as a genuine leather flight
> jacket to be raffled off at 2 pm, Sunday. Besides the breakfast, other
> food is available on-site, and DJ music will be played.
>
> Questions? Give me a holler....
>
> Lynn
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Hope to see you there, Rex...by the way, your Chapter has its meeting
Thursday night, right? Maybe I can drive over there and put in a plug
for the JXN thing.
Lynn
do not archive
On Wednesday, June 7, 2006, at 06:52 PM, Rexster wrote:
>
> Lynn,
>
> I plan to be there Sunday! I'll be coming from 57D (Ray Community)
> which is about 20 miles north of Detroit. We're pretty close to
> Selfridge Air National Guard base. Anybody else going?
>
> Rex Phelps Model 3
>
>
>
>
> >-->Kitfox-Listmessagepostedby:LynnMatteson<lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >
> >Don'tforgetthattheJackson,Michigan(JXN)PancakeBreakfastFly-
> inand
> >Cruise-inhappensthisSunday,June11.Allyouwest-
> coasters,havefun
> >atLowell'sCameronParkfly-
> in,andthoseofyouclosertotheeastcoast
> >mightwanttothinkaboutcomingtothe38thAnnualall-you-can-eat
> >pancakebreakfast,combinedwiththe1stannual"east-of-the-
> Rockies"
> >Kitfoxget-together(officialnametobechosenlater)forfunand
> >whatever.Thisisanall-weekendevent(thefly-
> inisSundayonly)which
> >isdescribedonsportflight.comunderfly-in/airshows.(Thefileis
> >HUGE...sorryaboutthat.)ThebreakfastisheldintheEAAhangar...y
> ou
> >won'tgetwetperchanceitrains.We'dliketoseeasmanyKitfoxesa
> s
> >possible.Let'strytoout-
> numberthemetalmonsters,ifpossible.Ifyou
> >don'thaveaKitfox,jumpintoyourfavoriteexperimental(orwhateve
> r)
> >andcomejoinus.
> >
> >Therewillbecars,motorcycles,trucks,modelairplanes....25autom
> obile
> >trophiestobeawarded,aswellasagenuineleatherflightjacketto
> be
> >raffledoffat2pm,Sunday.Besidesthebreakfast,otherfoodis
> >availableon-site,andDJmusicwillbeplayed.
> >
> >Questions?Givemeaholler....
> >
> >Lynn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> >http://wiki.matronics.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >&n========================sp;-Thep;MatronicsListFeatures
> Navigatortobrowse
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Michigan Fly-in this Sunday |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 06:41 PM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
>This woman is active on the Lacair builders list - actually her husband -
>and her next comment didn't surprise me. She said that the homebuilt
>movement is moved by the most popular airplanes...
Is that popular in dollars? Or popular in numbers? If the latter, I suspect
the next five years will see the number of LSA overwhelm the fast glass
machines. (Particularly at the rate the Lancair guys kill themselves. I
just hope they don't kill the whole experimental movement in the process.)
>Pardon the venting, but has anyone compared Sport Pilot and Kitplanes
>magazines lately? We are being pretty much ignored by the powers in EAA.
Has anyone noticed that EAA NEVER mentions AOPA? Does anyone else think
that EAA is trying to replace AOPA? Has anyone else noticed that EAA copies
AOPA assiduously? (Insurance, flight planning, airport support, medical
support.) Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between their two
monthlies. I too wish EAA would stay with their core competency, and leave
the (albeit necessary,) bureaucratic work to AOPA.
>If it requires a date change for us, I don't see that as a problem. But
>at present, I really don't see much of a conflict as they are two quite
>different events.
I could never do both, and would much prefer your fly-in to something like
Golden-West.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: New Web Site |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Glad to see you making the Cameron Park event, John and Debra....now
how about spooling up the ol' winged thing and overnight it to JXN
where we'll reserve a spot for you. : ) Or perhaps a little more
practical, save a calendar date for a possible late-summer Kitfox thing
to be decided upon later...as suggested by Lowell. In any event, I
look forward to seeing you both at Oshkosh.
Lynn
do not archive
On Wednesday, June 7, 2006, at 10:56 AM, jdmcbean wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> Just as an update wanted to let those that do not already
> know that Kitfox Aircraft has a new web site www.kitfoxaircraftllc.com
>
>
>
>
> Many thanks to Rich Cunningham(sp) , afellow Kitfox driver.His help
> was instrumental in getting the website up quickly.
>
>
>
> Im sure everyone is wondering what is going onWell here is a short
> brief:
>
>
>
> Things have been very busy.We are currently working in the existing
> facility. We now have the first 3 kits available and are spooling up
> production.We will be at Cameron Park this Saturday the 10th and look
> forward to seeing everyone there.Oshkosh is reserved and we are in
> booth #426 in the North Aircraft Display.
>
>
>
> We are very excited.. and looking forward to seeing everyone.
>
>
>
> Fly Safe !!
>
> John & Debra McBean
>
> www.kitfoxaircraftllc.comwww.sportplanellc.com
>
> "The Sky is not the Limit...It's a Playground"
>
>
>
Message 41
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Just what I believe to be true. Stock valves are just that stock steel
valves. Our application subjects them to IMHO abnormal stresses. I have
by no means done any subjective test nor do I have reams of research to
document anything. Just based on my observations, personal, observed and
read. What's great about this media we exchange ideas, thoughts and
experiences in is the collective wisdom or at least red flags that are
raised. If I built another engine these things I would do.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
--> <janderson412@hotmail.com>
This is new news to me Rick, you saying that the stock soob turbo valves
not
good? I have the stock (original) valve gear still fitted?? John
From: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" <wingsdown@comcast.net>
Well we can not count all the stock exhaust cross over failures until we
got the new SS set. I think I had just the right number of fingers
though. 350 hours seems about right, and it was an exhaust valve that
snapped just below the scallop number 3 cylinder. That was stock
components. SS with bronze guides is the only way to go for the boost
folks. If I were doing another set of heads I would coat at least coat
the exhaust runners and ports with Swain coating. The beat would be a
complete coating of the combustion chamber in the heads and all exposed
aluminum. I did the SS valve crowns as well.
OK misread the whole dang post.
Compression was good from the get go and only improved marginally over
time. I don't remember the numbers but I want to say 140 all around. No
real blow by on new engine. I wish I had kept better notes. I also had
the block, rings and pistons cryogenic treated so who knows. I was
really looking forward to a 3000hr TBO :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kurt
schrader
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Specs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
--> <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
About when did your Soob break in? What were the
symptoms? Temps, blowby oil accumulated, power?
I heard that about 300 hrs is the magic number. Since
yours was a superior engine, I understand results may
vary. :-)
Kurt S.
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
>Thanks. Yes some folks don't realize that the engine
>actually breathes
>quite a lot of air through breather vents. I drained
>them about ever
>other oil change or 50 hours. The more blow- by you
>have the more that is accumulated in the separators.
__________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Fuselage Fabric Wrinkles |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Robert,
I'd immediately assume the same things you did, that
there is some flexing going on there. Usually the
fabric tension doesn't release enough under normal
flex to wrinkle. That would create a problem on our
wings and tail surfaces!
Is that the bay with the lift handle? Just a
thought...
Because that is a small width of fabric back there, a
smaller flex would show quicker, in my opinion.
Not sure if you tried this, but put a straight edge to
the tubing between welds on either side of the
wrinkles and see if they are drawn in. Then push on
these tubes 1/2 way between welds and see if the
fabric shows a change. If the fabric had been too
tight to begin with, the tubes could have curved in
and began flexing over time.
Check with another same model Fox and see how straight
they are so I don't mislead you, if they are meant to
be curved on your model. I think they are nearly
straight between bays?
Those are the only additional raw checks I can think
of.
Kurt S. S-5
--- W & R Beck <trevorkebb@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello Folks:
>
> I am an old time member of the Kitfox List from
> about 8 years ago; just returned to the US and newly
> signed up. I need some advice.
>
> A few days ago, after having folded the wings on my
> 310-hour Model IV 1050, I noticed some subtle
> longitudinal (front-to-back) wrinkles on the top
> fuselage fabric, in the bay that starts about a foot
> in front of the vertical stabilizer. I have never
> seen them before and cannot think of any reason, or
> abuse to the plane, that could have caused them to
> appear. The wrinkles smooth out a bit when the wings
> are swung out for flight. It is surely not
> temperature related, and no one to my knowledge has
> ham-fistedly handled the plane in a way that would
> bend tubing. It is always hangared and my hangar
> mate's plane has been off getting its annual and
> some new paint for the last
> 2 weeks.
>
> My initial thought was that I had a broken weld
> somewhere, tempered somewhat by the knowledge that I
> have not heard of this happening to any other
> Kitfox. I spent an hour yesterday visually looking
> over, then pulling and pushing on the individual
> tubes inside the fuselage that I could reach from
> the opening below the turtledeck and through
> inspection holes, and pushing against those I could
> not reach with a wooden stick. I found none loose.
> Then a Pitts owner and I spent about an hour trying
> to torque the fuselage weldment any way we could, by
> the vertical and horizontal tails, pushing down on
> the fuselage, by the wingtips with wings out, by the
> wings when folded, etc., and we could not find any
> combination that would increase or make any visually
> discernible difference in the wrinkles, nor were
> there any abnormal airframe sounds or clicking.
> These crude tests don't eliminate the possibility of
> a broken weld but do diminish it.
>
> The wrinkles are to me a rather strange anomaly
> -suddenly there for no apparent reason.
>
> Has anyone on the List come across anything similar?
> Any advice on further checks I could make?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Robert Beck
__________________________________________________
Message 43
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|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Good info anyway Rick,
You are way ahead of the rest of us on Soob Nuke
hardening. ;-)
Correcting my oil blowing breather, I capped the old
one off and ran a large ID, long, clear line from it
to my new breather, which I put on the right seat.
(That probably hasn't been done too often) Flew that
for a while and watched the engine breath.
Interesting! Not exactly what I expected. The engine
was tight and had only a slow migration of oil mist to
the collector. The white oily air wafted out the
filter and drifted around the cockpit showing very
little blowby. I suppose there was a lot more air
exchange left-right-left-right going on thru the old
breather and the pan.
Other lessons from the test were that I have few air
leaks in the cockpit, even though I didn't drop down
the curved up corners on my canopy. You are going to
get an oily mist blowing around under your cowl. And
don't mention "smoke in the cockpit" on Unicom where
someone who doesn't understand might hear it!
Casually mentioned "only light smoke in the cockpit"
to my ground support, as someone else ran out to
prepare the runway at another airport. :-( Last
lesson, good range on my radio..... ;-)
My SS exhaust was not done well and I sent it back for
fixing. The left exhaust was welded over a hole in
the crossover about 1/2 the size of the pipe and I
thought it would flow badly. Also the tap for my
Fuel/Air ratio probe ran right into the turbo-out pipe
and was unusable. I asked them to open the exhaust
hole and rotate the probe tap 30 degrees. They
improved the hole, but rotated the tap 70 degrees on
the next try, right into the engine head.
I gave up and fixed it myself. The clincher was that
they threw a bag of nuts in with the second attempt.
I am from Wisconsin like the welder, but still didn't
like the humor in that. Not good customer relations,
especially since I was very kind to them. For the
$700 it eventually cost, I wanted a quality part.
Rick, did you smooth out the intake/exhaust ports for
better flow before coating?
I haven't had mine apart much, but did see that the
case was in raw form with jagged holes around the
pushrods from the casting. I suspect that the engine
could be spiffied up some, be a pound lighter and
breath a little easier.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
> Well we can not count all the stock exhaust cross
> over failures until we
> got the new SS set. I think I had just the right
> number of fingers
> though. 350 hours seems about right, and it was an
> exhaust valve that
> snapped just below the scallop number 3 cylinder.
> That was stock
> components. SS with bronze guides is the only way to
> go for the boost
> folks. If I were doing another set of heads I would
> coat at least coat
> the exhaust runners and ports with Swain coating.
> The beat would be a
> complete coating of the combustion chamber in the
> heads and all exposed
> aluminum. I did the SS valve crowns as well.
>
> OK misread the whole dang post.
>
> Compression was good from the get go and only
> improved marginally over
> time. I don't remember the numbers but I want to say
> 140 all around. No
> real blow by on new engine. I wish I had kept better
> notes. I also had
> the block, rings and pistons cryogenic treated so
> who knows. I was
> really looking forward to a 3000hr TBO :)
>
> Rick
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Rick,
--- wingsdown <wingsdown@comcast.net> wrote:
> Boy 1/4 sure seems small. Did you do a flow test.
> Under full power you
> can flow as much as 16.5 GPH maybe more. With that
> 1/4 line I could see
> how you might have pressure but lack adequate
> volume/ flow. Minimum would be 3/8 to my thinking.
>
> Rick
Yes, I checked it gravity and with each pump. Got the
exact results somewhere because I was trying to
calibrate the FF gauge too. Could only gravity flow
for the FF gauge to keep it on scale.
Had plenty of gravity for cruise (I think 7-8 GPH
static (no tank ram pressure) and off the meter with a
pump on. I forget the pump rates when I timed them.
I timed for 1 and 5 gallons each test and it seemed
plenty. Must have done 10 tests or more.
In fact, my engine kept running in cruise with both
pumps off and the valve blown out my gascolator, when
flying down here. It had a little boost from the tank
vents, so it showed about 8 to 8.5 GPH with an
estimated 3 GPH of that blowing out the gascolator in
flight.
I thought the engine had to be sucking some air with
the fuel in the gascolator like that, but it ran, and
luckily it was one of those times where it was running
normally richer. At full enrichment I could still
keep 1450 EGT, no pumps and dumping! But at 3200
rpm....
And it runs rich, 1300-1350 EGT's at full power. But
left full rich, it can hit 1550 at 4000 rpm.
I suspect I damaged the carb at the start with
overpressure, or unknownly buying fuel with alcohol
early on. It is the only thing I can think of.
Still, I am going to larger lines.
Kurt S.
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| Subject: | Re: Throttle Body |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Graeme,
What did the overhaul cost? I might do it too. I
used local fuel for 2 years until I found it had
unlabeled addatives.
>From what I was told, they can see the damage from
alcohol right off. Don't know if it is the seals or
if the aluminum body corrodes from it. Maybe both? I
haven't called them yet on it.
kurt s.
--- QSS <msm@byterocky.net> wrote:
> Hi Guys, I have just received my Ellison throttle
> body back from the USA after a factory overhaul. In
> the manual provided I note that Mogas/premium motor
> fuel is not recommended for use. I had run my engine
> on mogas until my accident and was unaware of any
> restriction on the use of particular fuels through
> these throttle bodies. Can anyone with the Ellison
> system comment on how critical this policy on
> burning only avgas is and if using mogas is a real
> no-no. I dont have a problem using avgas but
> sourcing it in our area is very difficult and I
> would like to avoid using 44 gallon storage drums if
> at all possible.
>
> Regards
> Graeme
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