Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:19 AM - Brake Callipers (Rex Shaw)
2. 04:28 AM - Re: Brake Callipers (Jimmie Blackwell)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe)
4. 07:39 AM - Tank Sealer (Dave)
5. 07:57 AM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Guy Buchanan)
6. 08:03 AM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Guy Buchanan)
7. 08:19 AM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
8. 08:51 AM - Re: Tank Sealer (Dave G.)
9. 10:11 AM - Re: Tank Sealer (darinh)
10. 12:13 PM - Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Torgeir Mortensen)
11. 12:33 PM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Torgeir Mortensen)
12. 02:06 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe)
13. 05:34 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Torgeir Mortensen)
14. 05:41 PM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Guy Buchanan)
15. 05:41 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Guy Buchanan)
16. 05:55 PM - Re: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe)
17. 06:01 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe)
18. 07:13 PM - A Couple Things... (Andrew Matthaey)
Message 1
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I have a MKIV with dual differential braking and Douglas 8" chromed
steel rims. The master cylinders are Matco MC-1 but does anybody have
any idea what the calippers are likely to be as my right hand one is
slowly leaking and I would like to get a kit before I actually touch it
if possible. I do have the Grove undercarriage too if that alters the
situation. The callipers are mounted on the inside of the disc. Any
advice would be much appreciated. Thankyou,
Rex Shaw
Australia.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Brake Callipers |
Rex
Sounds like you have the same setup as mine. Mine are Matco calipers, but will
look when I go to the hangar today and look for any markings. I know that
I got brake pads from Matco and they worked fine.
Jimmie
Rex Shaw <rexjan@bigpond.com> wrote:
I have a MKIV with dual differential braking and Douglas 8" chromed steel
rims. The master cylinders are Matco MC-1 but does anybody have any idea
what the calippers are likely to be as my right hand one is slowly leaking and
I would like to get a kit before I actually touch it if possible. I do have
the Grove undercarriage too if that alters the situation. The callipers are mounted
on the inside of the disc. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thankyou,
Rex Shaw
Australia.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Guy,
Nice pics. You can do a fuel flow check easily by taking loose the fuel
line at the input of the fuel pump and letting it gravity drain in a bucket.
You want 150% fuel flow based on the max fuel usage of the engine or say,
150% X 7 gallons = 10.5 gallons per hour. Just drain a quart and do the
rest by math. BTW, keep the collection bucket at the same height as the
fuel pump. If you extend the line down to the hanger floor it will give you
incorrect fuel flow readings.
I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your fuel
pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse line
on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how
important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump mounted on
it side.
Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high speed
engine running??? BTW, I'll bet your heating problem will go away once in
the air. Or at least be OK during cruise. I always had a problem during
climb on hot days. I think my modifications pretty well fixed everything.
Yesterday I flew with 167 degrees on an extended climb and temps went to 165
at cruise (OAT was 80). The input / output temps of the radiator were 10
degrees different.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
> mains on stands and run it for a while with the tanks near empty to make
> sure I've got good fuel flow. I'm then going to check flows with the tanks
> full. I'll probably put at least an hour on it static so I'll want the
> capability to keep it cool.
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 4
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Fuel_Tank_Sealer.html
Is this a suitable sealer for tanks ?
Dave
-----
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 10:34 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
>Guy nice pics,
>
>It might be me, but that air scoop looks like it is restricted by the cowl
>exit.
Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I
thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front
of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the
edges as much as across the core...
>Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling issues but
>most likely a larger cooling source than a OEM Skystar rad. My rad is
>about 4 inch x 20 inch by 2 inch thick with 582.
That sounds about like mine, though I doubt mine is two inches thick, more
like 1.5. It's the stock Skystar unit. I like Murle's aluminum radiator a
lot. I wonder if it's interchangeable with the Skystar unit?
>Fuel flow can be checked static as well. You will need min. 6 to 7 gals
>free flow per hour from gravity alone.
I had 12 gph static sitting on the wheels with 1 gallon in the tanks. I
plan to put the mains on 10" ramps and check it again.
>You should get increased fuel flow from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed
>properly.
Yeah, I heard about the sealing problem. It's a good reminder to make sure
they seal well.
>Sharp looking Kitfox and I hope the temperature does not run as red as the
>paint job :)
Thanks.
>I see that it is 99.9 % done - does that mean a test flight any day now ?
My DAR will be in town the 17th. I'm hoping to have it inspected within the
week. I think I'll then trailer it up to Corona and have Dave Stevenson
check it out and fly it. Bottom line - less than two weeks.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 04:57 AM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
>Guy,
> Nice pics.
Thanks.
>You can do a fuel flow check easily by taking loose the fuel
>line at the input of the fuel pump and letting it gravity drain in a bucket.
>You want 150% fuel flow based on the max fuel usage of the engine or say,
>150% X 7 gallons = 10.5 gallons per hour.
I did that and got about 12 gph with 1 gallon in the tanks. I'm going to do
it again with the mains on ramps.
> I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your fuel
>pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse line
>on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how
>important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump mounted on
>it side.
Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in the
input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump. Thus,
with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will eventually fill
with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the efficiency of the pump. (I
haven't decided if it will, as theoretically the pump would work even full
of fluid, but with some reduction in efficiency caused by the increased
fluid friction of the liquid.) However, the hole for the drain is so small,
(so as to minimize the pulse loss,) that I have serious doubts it would
drain fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome. ;-) Of course, once the
pulsing started it would probably spit out any fuel in that cavity.)
Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the aircraft; It's what
Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about it; and many others have
mounted them the same way. I think I will replace the input elbow with one
with no hole, then drill a similar sized hole in the bottom of the pulse
cavity - same effect, vertical mount.
> Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high speed
>engine running???
I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme descent,
empty tank time to exhaustion.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
"Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I
thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front
of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the
edges as much as across the core..."
Guy, one of the rules of thumb is that adequate cooling requires 3 times the exit
area in relation to the inlet area. There are always exceptions, but it is
possible that restricting the flow of air through the engine compartment increases
the heat-soak condition previously described. Note that in Don's previous
post that he was getting 10* temp drop through the radiator. That number is
consistant with other reports seen in the past. I believe that the 582 is expected
to operate in a free-air environment.
John Kerr
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan
>
> At 10:34 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote:
> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave"
> >
> >Guy nice pics,
> >
> >It might be me, but that air scoop looks like it is restricted by the cowl
> >exit.
>
> Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I
> thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front
> of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the
> edges as much as across the core...
>
> >Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling issues but
> >most likely a larger cooling source than a OEM Skystar rad. My rad is
> >about 4 inch x 20 inch by 2 inch thick with 582.
>
> That sounds about like mine, though I doubt mine is two inches thick, more
> like 1.5. It's the stock Skystar unit. I like Murle's aluminum radiator a
> lot. I wonder if it's interchangeable with the Skystar unit?
>
> >Fuel flow can be checked static as well. You will need min. 6 to 7 gals
> >free flow per hour from gravity alone.
>
> I had 12 gph static sitting on the wheels with 1 gallon in the tanks. I
> plan to put the mains on 10" ramps and check it again.
>
> >You should get increased fuel flow from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed
> >properly.
>
> Yeah, I heard about the sealing problem. It's a good reminder to make sure
> they seal well.
>
> >Sharp looking Kitfox and I hope the temperature does not run as red as the
> >paint job :)
>
> Thanks.
>
> >I see that it is 99.9 % done - does that mean a test flight any day now ?
>
> My DAR will be in town the 17th. I'm hoping to have it inspected within the
> week. I think I'll then trailer it up to Corona and have Dave Stevenson
> check it out and fly it. Bottom line - less than two weeks.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>"Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it IS restricted. I <BR>thought
that might be a good thing, increasing the static pressure in front <BR>of
the radiator. I suppose it's possible that the radiator cools around the
<BR>edges as much as across the core..."<BR><BR>Guy, one of the rules of thumb
is that adequate cooling requires 3 times the exit area in relation to the inlet
area. There are always exceptions, but it is possible that restricting
the flow of air through the engine compartment increases the heat-soak condition
previously described. Note that in Don's previous post that he was
getting 10* temp drop through the radiator. That number is consistant
with other reports seen in the past. I believe that the 582 is expected
to operate in a free-air environment.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kerr</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Guy Buchanan
<bnn@nethere.com> <BR><BR>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy
Buchanan <BNN@NETHERE.COM><BR>> <BR>> At 10:34 PM 6/13/2006, you wrote:
<BR>> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <DAVE@CFISHER.COM><BR>>
> <BR>> >Guy nice pics, <BR>> > <BR>> >It might
be me, but that air scoop looks like it is restricted by the cowl <BR>> >exit.
<BR>> <BR>> Well the ONLY exit is the radiator, so in a sense it
IS restricted. I <BR>> thought that might be a good thing, increasing the static
pressure in front <BR>> of the radiator. I suppose it's possible that
the radiator cools around the <BR>> edges as much as across the core... <BR>>
<BR>> >Bob Robertson is a good guy and I would expect he had no cooling
issues but <BR>> >most likely a larger c
ooling
source than a OEM Skystar rad. My rad is <BR>> >about 4 inch x 20 inch by
2 inch thick with 582. <BR>> <BR>> That sounds about like mine, though
I doubt mine is two inches thick, more <BR>> like 1.5. It's the stock Skystar
unit. I like Murle's aluminum radiator a <BR>> lot. I wonder if it's interchangeable
with the Skystar unit? <BR>> <BR>> >Fuel flow can be checked
static as well. You will need min. 6 to 7 gals <BR>> >free flow per
hour from gravity alone. <BR>> <BR>> I had 12 gph static sitting on the
wheels with 1 gallon in the tanks. I <BR>> plan to put the mains on 10" ramps
and check it again. <BR>> <BR>> >You should get increased fuel flow
from Pitot tubes on caps if they sealed <BR>> >properly. <BR>> <BR>>
Yeah, I heard about the sealing problem. It's a good reminder to make sure
<BR>> they seal well. <BR>> <BR>> >Sharp looking Kitfox and I
hope the temperature does not run as red as the <BR>&
gt; &g
>>
Message 8
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
Can't tell for sure, I've been curious about POR-15. It claims to be immune
to even large concentraions of alchohol and does not contain MEK, I think
we've all seen too much MEK.
http://www.por15.com/HOME/tabid/36/Default.aspx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Tank Sealer
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>
> http://www.4secondsflat.com/Fuel_Tank_Sealer.html
>
>
> Is this a suitable sealer for tanks ?
>
>
> Dave
>
> -----
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
I called both companies and they both said their sealers are not for fiberglass
tanks and will not adhere to them. Sorry guys. We are still looking for a good
sealer for fiberglass that will withstand ethanol.
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=41010#41010
Message 10
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| Subject: | Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature |
Questions
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
Hi Guy,
Very nice airplane!
Thought I'll warn you about installing the Mikuni pump in horizontal
position with the "bleeding hole" down, cause this is wrong!!!
The Mikuni pump shall be installed as it is in your plane, vertically with
the texture right readable, this is the right position.
The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost
half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce
very much the efficient of the pump.
This pump contain four different "working" cambers, plus two buffering
cambers the latter smoothening out the peak pressure from the pump.
Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole is
meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air moisture
- this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing camber.
Vertical installed Mikuni pump (the round type) is the position that there
is less entrapped air, and is the position where the pump is most
efficient.
Torgeir.
>> I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your fuel
>> pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse
>> line
>> on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how
>> important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump
>> mounted on
>> it side.
>
> Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in the
> input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump. Thus,
> with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will eventually
> fill with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the efficiency of the
> pump. (I haven't decided if it will, as theoretically the pump would
> work even full of fluid, but with some reduction in efficiency caused by
> the increased fluid friction of the liquid.) However, the hole for the
> drain is so small, (so as to minimize the pulse loss,) that I have
> serious doubts it would drain fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome.
> ;-) Of course, once the pulsing started it would probably spit out any
> fuel in that cavity.) Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the
> aircraft; It's what Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about
> it; and many others have mounted them the same way. I think I will
> replace the input elbow with one with no hole, then drill a similar
> sized hole in the bottom of the pulse cavity - same effect, vertical
> mount.
>
>> Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high
>> speed
>> engine running???
>
> I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme
> descent, empty tank time to exhaustion.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
This scoope is the original SS type, however it is almost half covered by
the protrusion of the bottom cowl. This dimish the effectiviness of the
scoope. Make this cowl bottom flat and vent the eng comp. at the engine
cowl. sides.
Seal the area around the rad. inside the scoope.
Throw out that thermostat and install a double flapper valves, as Don did.
Later on you may make a very efficient low weight cabin heater
system... :)
BTW. My rad is (20 X 4 X 2)".
This work.
Torgeir.
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:11:30 -0700, Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> wrote:
> At 05:49 AM 6/13/2006, you wrote:
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
>>
>> Guy, could you take a picute of your setup ? Now that attachments can
>> be
>> added to post it would make it more clear. Did you say you have a cowl
>> over the radiator or is it original?
>
> I think it's the Speedster cowl. I've added a back plate which forces all
> the incoming air through the radiator. I'll dig up a picture.
>
>
>> And how did you maintain 175 F on breakin but not now ? I assume with a
>> hose?
>> New engines will generally run hotter for the first 10 to 20 hours as
>> well.
>
> I don't know. Bob Robertson did the break in. I'm going to try the hose
> because I have to do more full throttle static runs. I'm going to put the
> mains on stands and run it for a while with the tanks near empty to make
> sure I've got good fuel flow. I'm then going to check flows with the
> tanks
> full. I'll probably put at least an hour on it static so I'll want the
> capability to keep it cool.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 |
Temperature Questions
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/mikunipump_mount.htm
http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/RotaxTips.html
Torgeir,
The above two web sites talk about mounting the fuel pump horizontal
(weep hole down) and give a little reasoning as to why. Their reasoning
sort of makes sence to me. In the past I have detected a bit of oil/fuel
from that weep hole. Are you saying that a horizontal mount it wrong?
Where did you get the mounting instructions saying that vertical is correct?
I'm curious because I always thought I had mine installed correctly. This
has become an interesting topic to me.
Thanks,
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torgeir Mortensen" <torgemor@online.no>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:10 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582
Temperature Questions
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
> Thought I'll warn you about installing the Mikuni pump in horizontal
> position with the "bleeding hole" down, cause this is wrong!!!
>
> The Mikuni pump shall be installed as it is in your plane, vertically with
> the texture right readable, this is the right position.
>
> The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost
> half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce
> very much the efficient of the pump.
>
> This pump contain four different "working" cambers, plus two buffering
> cambers the latter smoothening out the peak pressure from the pump.
>
> Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole is
> meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air
> moisture - this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing
> camber.
>
> Vertical installed Mikuni pump (the round type) is the position that there
> is less entrapped air, and is the position where the pump is most
> efficient.
>
>
> Torgeir.
>
>
>>> I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your fuel
>>> pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse
>>> line
>>> on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how
>>> important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump mounted
>>> on
>>> it side.
>>
>> Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in the
>> input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump. Thus,
>> with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will eventually fill
>> with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the efficiency of the pump. (I
>> haven't decided if it will, as theoretically the pump would work even
>> full of fluid, but with some reduction in efficiency caused by the
>> increased fluid friction of the liquid.) However, the hole for the drain
>> is so small, (so as to minimize the pulse loss,) that I have serious
>> doubts it would drain fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome. ;-) Of
>> course, once the pulsing started it would probably spit out any fuel in
>> that cavity.) Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the aircraft;
>> It's what Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about it; and many
>> others have mounted them the same way. I think I will replace the input
>> elbow with one with no hole, then drill a similar sized hole in the
>> bottom of the pulse cavity - same effect, vertical mount.
>>
>>> Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high
>>> speed
>>> engine running???
>>
>> I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme
>> descent, empty tank time to exhaustion.
>>
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>> http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 |
Temperature Questions
Hi Don,
Well, there is not such an instruction as far as I'll know for the Mikuni
(I've searched Mikuni web sites to find info about the horizontal mounting
but never found such info), however, if you study the pump this is easy to
figure out. When the pump is in function, the air must escape through "top
mounted" valves. I.E. when the pump is installed in the proper "working
attitude", the air must be able to escape through the pump without
collecting up inside the pump. A wrongly installed pump might be a solid
block for fuel feed if evaporation take place.
If there is a collection of condensed water built up inside the "dry"
pulse camber, the only way to get read of such problem is to mount the
pump horizontally, or drill a hole in the lower part of pulse camber as
Gus suggested (and remember to blank the existing "elbow hole"), in order
to have the pump vertical mounted. I've never had any problem with such
condensation -but might be a problem in other places(?).
Well here's my first attachment. The first picture shows the round Mikuni
(DF 52). Here you'll see the inlet at the lower right side. Also the
in/out fittings is marked with arrows.
The next picture show the center part of the pump, the lower part is the
inlet camber with the one way valve directed into the picture, fuel going
from here and into the "wet" pulsing camber on the reverse side of center
unit. The upper camber is the outlet camber, here the fuel is being pumped
from the "wet" pulsing camber via the one way valve going toward us.
You'll see that both valves is located in the top position, allowing air
to escape easily. If this pump is installed horizontally, the air must go
downward to escape the camber- so if we can do that...
I've got a picture of both, the "wet" pulse camber and the dry pulse
chamber, but in order to keep attachment size at minimum, I skipped two
pictures, however can send them if needed.
Just a little note here; as you can see there is space to install a third
pressure outlet right on the top of the center unit, this will make the
pump even more efficient.
Torgeir.
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:03:11 -0400, Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
> http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/mikunipump_mount.htm
>
> http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/RotaxTips.html
>
> Torgeir,
> The above two web sites talk about mounting the fuel pump horizontal
> (weep hole down) and give a little reasoning as to why. Their reasoning
> sort of makes sence to me. In the past I have detected a bit of
> oil/fuel from that weep hole. Are you saying that a horizontal mount it
> wrong? Where did you get the mounting instructions saying that vertical
> is correct? I'm curious because I always thought I had mine installed
> correctly. This has become an interesting topic to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Don Smythe
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torgeir Mortensen"
> <torgemor@online.no>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:10 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More
> 582 Temperature Questions
>
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen
>> <torgemor@online.no>
>
>> Thought I'll warn you about installing the Mikuni pump in horizontal
>> position with the "bleeding hole" down, cause this is wrong!!!
>>
>> The Mikuni pump shall be installed as it is in your plane, vertically
>> with the texture right readable, this is the right position.
>>
>> The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost
>> half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will
>> reduce very much the efficient of the pump.
>>
>> This pump contain four different "working" cambers, plus two buffering
>> cambers the latter smoothening out the peak pressure from the pump.
>>
>> Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole
>> is meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air
>> moisture - this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing
>> camber.
>>
>> Vertical installed Mikuni pump (the round type) is the position that
>> there is less entrapped air, and is the position where the pump is most
>> efficient.
>>
>>
>> Torgeir.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your
>>>> fuel
>>>> pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the
>>>> pulse line
>>>> on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how
>>>> important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump
>>>> mounted on
>>>> it side.
>>>
>>> Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in
>>> the input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump.
>>> Thus, with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will
>>> eventually fill with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the
>>> efficiency of the pump. (I haven't decided if it will, as
>>> theoretically the pump would work even full of fluid, but with some
>>> reduction in efficiency caused by the increased fluid friction of the
>>> liquid.) However, the hole for the drain is so small, (so as to
>>> minimize the pulse loss,) that I have serious doubts it would drain
>>> fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome. ;-) Of course, once the
>>> pulsing started it would probably spit out any fuel in that cavity.)
>>> Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the aircraft; It's what
>>> Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about it; and many others
>>> have mounted them the same way. I think I will replace the input elbow
>>> with one with no hole, then drill a similar sized hole in the bottom
>>> of the pulse cavity - same effect, vertical mount.
>>>
>>>> Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high
>>>> speed
>>>> engine running???
>>>
>>> I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme
>>> descent, empty tank time to exhaustion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Guy Buchanan
>>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>>> http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
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>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>> http://wiki.matronics.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 12:33 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen <torgemor@online.no>
>
>This scoope is the original SS type, however it is almost half covered by
>the protrusion of the bottom cowl. This dimish the effectiviness of the
>scoope. Make this cowl bottom flat and vent the eng comp. at the engine
>cowl. sides.
Uggh. More work.
>Seal the area around the rad. inside the scoope.
Done.
>Throw out that thermostat and install a double flapper valves, as Don did.
Love to do that. Much more work.
>Later on you may make a very efficient low weight cabin heater
>system... :)
Don't think I'll need that until my first trip to Alaska. (I'm in sunny SoCal.)
Thanks Torgeir!
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More |
582 Temperature Questions
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 12:10 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
>The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost
>half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce
>very much the efficient of the pump.
Ah! I think I understand! Are you saying that the fuel chambers will
contain trapped air if I mount the pump flat?
>Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole is
>meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air moisture
>- this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing camber.
So I would be best if I mounted the pump vertically and moved the bleed
hole to the bottom of the pulse chamber. Then the pulse chamber would never
fill even half way with fluid.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: More 582 Temperature Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
Guy,
This is exactly what I did and it's not "Uggh more work". It's "UGGH A
WHOLE LOT MORE WORK". However, I think (more testing needed in real hot
weather) it did the trick.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
>>scoope. Make this cowl bottom flat and vent the eng comp. at the engine
>>cowl. sides.
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More |
582 Temperature Questions
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
See below. I'm having a real hard time understanding this.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
> Ah! I think I understand! Are you saying that the fuel chambers will
> contain trapped air if I mount the pump flat?
If the chamber will contain trapped air, it will contain trapped air no
matter which way you mount it????
> So I would be best if I mounted the pump vertically and moved the bleed
> hole to the bottom of the pulse chamber. Then the pulse chamber would
> never fill even half way with fluid.
I'm totally lost. Why would we need to drill a new weep hole so we could
mount the thing vertically. There is already a weep hole in the so called
bottom.
Somebody help me.
Don Smythe
Message 18
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| Subject: | A Couple Things... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" <spaghettiohead@hotmail.com>
Well, I passed my Commercial Multi/Instrument ride yesterday in Florida -
Yeehawww! I celebrated in First-Class on the flight back LoL - Flight
Attendants Love Pilots ;-) so I got upgraded from steerage! Now it's off to
get 100 hrs multi and then my resume is in for Pilot w/my airline :)
So, I also flew the 'Fox today for the first time in a few weeks and found
she wouldn't start...I figure it's the battery, so I just Hand-Propped it
(never have before), and she started right up quite nicely. I flew into
Manchester, a busy Class-C not far from here and shut-down for a few minutes
- yep, started right up. From there, I flew into a Class-D and shut-down,
and she wouldn't start back up! Tried hand-propping and all...ended up
jumping it with a pick-up. After we got her started, I flew into a buddies
grass-strip and shut-down - started right up!
Any ideas why I would be having intermittent battery problems like that?
Could it be the terminals, the battery itself? Is it normal to have problems
hand-propping a 582 w/C-Box??
Thanks!
Andrew
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