---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/15/06: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:29 AM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Dave) 2. 04:50 AM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe) 3. 06:28 AM - SV: Mikuni fuel pump installation position (Torgeir Mortensen) 4. 06:53 AM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position (Don Smythe) 5. 07:21 AM - Selling C-IGVW (Algate) 6. 02:22 PM - Re: A Couple Things... (Torgeir Mortensen) 7. 02:31 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Torgeir Mortensen) 8. 04:03 PM - Re: Selling C-IGVW (QSS) 9. 05:50 PM - Re: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions (Don Smythe) 10. 06:36 PM - Re pump mounting (Rex Shaw) 11. 10:48 PM - Re: A Couple Things... (Andrew Matthaey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:37 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Don, Good heads up on that Fuel pump install. The impulse line should be 12 " or less as well as heavy wall line that will not collapse under vacuum. Now I also read about your Kitfox Cowl . Do you have a picture how you re - directed your exit underneath? I agree that the original cowl exit dumps mostly into the rad area and I have thought about re working that area as well. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > http://www.ultralightnews.com/safety_bulletins/mikunipump_mount.htm > > http://www.recreationalmobility.com/cgi-bin/recreation/RotaxTips.html > > Torgeir, > The above two web sites talk about mounting the fuel pump horizontal > (weep hole down) and give a little reasoning as to why. Their reasoning > sort of makes sence to me. In the past I have detected a bit of oil/fuel > from that weep hole. Are you saying that a horizontal mount it wrong? > Where did you get the mounting instructions saying that vertical is > correct? I'm curious because I always thought I had mine installed > correctly. This has become an interesting topic to me. > > Thanks, > Don Smythe > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Torgeir Mortensen" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:10 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 > Temperature Questions > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen > >> Thought I'll warn you about installing the Mikuni pump in horizontal >> position with the "bleeding hole" down, cause this is wrong!!! >> >> The Mikuni pump shall be installed as it is in your plane, vertically >> with the texture right readable, this is the right position. >> >> The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost >> half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce >> very much the efficient of the pump. >> >> This pump contain four different "working" cambers, plus two buffering >> cambers the latter smoothening out the peak pressure from the pump. >> >> Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole is >> meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air >> moisture - this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing >> camber. >> >> Vertical installed Mikuni pump (the round type) is the position that >> there is less entrapped air, and is the position where the pump is most >> efficient. >> >> >> Torgeir. >> >> >> >>>> I noticed something in your picture that I think it wrong. Your >>>> fuel >>>> pump is mounted on it's side and should be mounted flat with the pulse >>>> line >>>> on the bottom. I've read this in several articles and not sure how >>>> important it is. I've seen a batch of ultralights with the pump >>>> mounted on >>>> it side. >>> >>> Yes. I've heard about this. The micro drain for the pulse pump is in the >>> input elbow which enters the center of the back side of the pump. Thus, >>> with the pump sideways the pressure side of the pump will eventually >>> fill with fluid to half way, possibly reducing the efficiency of the >>> pump. (I haven't decided if it will, as theoretically the pump would >>> work even full of fluid, but with some reduction in efficiency caused by >>> the increased fluid friction of the liquid.) However, the hole for the >>> drain is so small, (so as to minimize the pulse loss,) that I have >>> serious doubts it would drain fuel if horizontal! (Small hole syndrome. >>> ;-) Of course, once the pulsing started it would probably spit out any >>> fuel in that cavity.) Unfortunately my pump was mounted when I got the >>> aircraft; It's what Skystar recommended; no SB or SL's come out about >>> it; and many others have mounted them the same way. I think I will >>> replace the input elbow with one with no hole, then drill a similar >>> sized hole in the bottom of the pulse cavity - same effect, vertical >>> mount. >>> >>>> Just curious as to why you need to do another hours worth of high >>>> speed >>>> engine running??? >>> >>> I want to check the extreme climb, empty tank flow and the extreme >>> descent, empty tank time to exhaustion. >>> >>> >>> Guy Buchanan >>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >>> http://wiki.matronics.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >> http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:31 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" I'll try to get pics soon. Don Smythe Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" > Now I also read about your Kitfox Cowl . Do you have a picture how you > re - directed your exit underneath? > I agree that the original cowl exit dumps mostly into the rad area and I > have thought about re working that area as well. > > > Dave ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:15 AM PST US From: Torgeir Mortensen Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position Sorry if you've been confused. Made this little drawing and hope this clear up. Torgeir. > From: Don Smythe [dosmythe@cox.net] > Sent: 2006-06-15 03:00:49 CEST > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > See below. I'm having a real hard time understanding this. > Don Smythe > ----- Original Message ----- > > Ah! I think I understand! Are you saying that the fuel chambers will > > contain trapped air if I mount the pump flat? > > If the chamber will contain trapped air, it will contain trapped air no > matter which way you mount it???? > > > So I would be best if I mounted the pump vertically and moved the bleed > > hole to the bottom of the pulse chamber. Then the pulse chamber would > > never fill even half way with fluid. > > I'm totally lost. Why would we need to drill a new weep hole so we could > mount the thing vertically. There is already a weep hole in the so called > bottom. > > Somebody help me. > Don Smythe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:11 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Torgeir, I must say, this has been on my mind constantly since yesterday. I now see your theory and must admit, it makes some good sense. However, this would require a mod to the pump. Like you said, add a new weep hole in the bottom and plug the old one near the pulse line. Interesting??? There is a test you can run to find leaks in the fuel system. Start a siphon at the low point and if you see air bubbles, you have a leak somewhere back up the line. I chased bubbles for about three days before finding a web site that talked about auto fuel "gassing" off. Anytime auto fuel passes through a larger surface like a large filter or fuel pump, the fuel gasses off and it appears that only half the filter (for example) is full of fuel. I put a mik pump on the end of a clear hose. Put the hose in the wing tank and started the siphon. No bubbles in the fuel line but massive bubbles coming out of the pump. Moved the rig over to a plane with 100LL and, NO bubbles anywhere. Hence, one of the advantages of 100LL is that it doesn't gas off like autofuel and therefore is less prone to vapor lock. So, the Mik pump will develop pockets of fuel vapor (maybe not air) during a gravity drain. I was not able to test the appearance of the vapor during actual pump operation. Thanks, Don Smythe Become more aware of something everyday. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torgeir Mortensen" Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position > > > Sorry if you've been confused. > > Made this little drawing and hope this clear up. > > Torgeir. > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:28 AM PST US From: "Algate" Subject: Kitfox-List: Selling C-IGVW Ladies and Gents, I am offering C-IGVW for sale as I will be returning to Australia and have decided that it will probably be more cost effective to sell here and re-buy there. 2001 Registered as Model 4-1200 with 582 Blue Head Registered in Canada as Advanced Ultralight TT is approx 480 hrs with 130 hrs on engine since major O/Haul by Light Engine Services (Bob Robertson)- changes daily! Plane is immaculate, recent annual completed and lots of mods: Fairings-struts and radiator Strobe and landing lights In Flight adjustable IVO 2 blade medium prop ICOM radio and Sigtronics panel Comm Tinted windows and screen Cabin Heat Custom carpets and door panels etc Black on White Aerothane Nice VFR Instrument panel Cruise at 90mph Sweet plane with no damage history 10/10 inside and out Full Mtce logs Looking for Cdn$28,000 Located Barrie, Ontario Regards Gary Algate ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A Couple Things... From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Hi Andrew, congratulation with your multi engine / instrument certification, this is -kind of "barrier" to pass. - Normally, a few weeks of resting for a lead acid battery should be "peace of cake", however, if there is a leak, something in your el. system that is draining the battery. The battery will soon loose it's capacity. Use an ammeter to check that no current is drawn from the battery when the master switch is in off position. If this is OK., then check the battery electrolyte level (assuming that you're using a standard lead acid battery) and add distilled water if nec. Is there any deposit around the battery poles (terminals)? If there is, remove this by using hot water, don't use any brushes to scrub this stuff away, just hot water with a rag. This is the correct way to remove this kind of oxidation. After everything is dried up, cover the terminals with a tiny layer of light grease (Vaseline). This will protect the terminals from oxidation. But if your terminals is clean, you dont have to do anything. If this is OK,. check that your generator system has the correct voltage, this will be around 13,5 V in the summertime with the normal load present, radio transponder etc. The max. load for a 582 should not be much more than 10 Amps. If all of the above is OK., change your battery. Good luck. Torgeir. On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:10:37 -0400, Andrew Matthaey wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" > > > Well, I passed my Commercial Multi/Instrument ride yesterday in Florida > - Yeehawww! I celebrated in First-Class on the flight back LoL - Flight > Attendants Love Pilots ;-) so I got upgraded from steerage! Now it's > off to get 100 hrs multi and then my resume is in for Pilot w/my airline > :) > > So, I also flew the 'Fox today for the first time in a few weeks and > found she wouldn't start...I figure it's the battery, so I just > Hand-Propped it (never have before), and she started right up quite > nicely. I flew into Manchester, a busy Class-C not far from here and > shut-down for a few minutes - yep, started right up. From there, I flew > into a Class-D and shut-down, and she wouldn't start back up! Tried > hand-propping and all...ended up jumping it with a pick-up. After we got > her started, I flew into a buddies grass-strip and shut-down - started > right up! > > Any ideas why I would be having intermittent battery problems like that? > Could it be the terminals, the battery itself? Is it normal to have > problems hand-propping a 582 w/C-Box?? > > Thanks! > > Andrew > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions From: Torgeir Mortensen --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen Yes, you've got it. I'm still using the pump (in my plane) vertically mounted with the original "elbow" bleed, this -as I've never seen any sign of corrosion in the bottom of the "dry" pulse camber. Wonder if anyone out there (on this list) have seen such corrosion? Torgeir. On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:36:43 -0700, Guy Buchanan wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 12:10 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote: >> The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost >> half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce >> very much the efficient of the pump. > > Ah! I think I understand! Are you saying that the fuel chambers will > contain trapped air if I mount the pump flat? > >> Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole >> is >> meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air >> moisture >> - this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing camber. > > So I would be best if I mounted the pump vertically and moved the bleed > hole to the bottom of the pulse chamber. Then the pulse chamber would > never fill even half way with fluid. > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:16 PM PST US From: "QSS" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Selling C-IGVW --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "QSS" G'Day Gary, I noticed in your photo's that you have a fuel mizer and wondered if you could comment on there effectiveness as a fuel management instrument. As fuel supply was the issue that contributed to my accident I will be fitting some type of gauge to monitor fuel use and was considering the mizer as an option. Maybe others that have similar types of systems would comment on their preferences as there appears to be many options ranging in price from the cheaper types to very expensive. Also what features should be considered as a minimum before purchasing. Regards Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Algate" Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 12:23 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Selling C-IGVW > > Ladies and Gents, > > I am offering C-IGVW for sale as I will be returning to Australia and have > decided that it will probably be more cost effective to sell here and > re-buy > there. > > 2001 Registered as Model 4-1200 with 582 Blue Head > Registered in Canada as Advanced Ultralight > TT is approx 480 hrs with 130 hrs on engine since major O/Haul by Light > Engine Services (Bob Robertson)- changes daily! > Plane is immaculate, recent annual completed and lots of mods: > > Fairings-struts and radiator > Strobe and landing lights > In Flight adjustable IVO 2 blade medium prop > ICOM radio and Sigtronics panel Comm > Tinted windows and screen > Cabin Heat > Custom carpets and door panels etc > Black on White Aerothane > Nice VFR Instrument panel > Cruise at 90mph > Sweet plane with no damage history 10/10 inside and out > Full Mtce logs > > Looking for Cdn$28,000 > Located Barrie, Ontario > > Regards > > Gary Algate > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:52 PM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Torgeir, I've never seen corrosion but I do get a slight oily residue at the weep hole (mounted horizontal). I can see a problem with the pump mounted vertical without adding another weep hole on the bottom side. 1/2 of the pulse chamber could fill up before getting to the level of the original weep hole which is centered at the pulse elbow. Don Smythe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torgeir Mortensen" Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Mikuni fuel pump installation position was: More 582 Temperature Questions > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen > > Yes, you've got it. > > I'm still using the pump (in my plane) vertically mounted with the > original "elbow" bleed, this -as I've never seen any sign of corrosion in > the bottom of the "dry" pulse camber. > > Wonder if anyone out there (on this list) have seen such corrosion? > > Torgeir. > > > On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:36:43 -0700, Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >> >> At 12:10 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote: >>> The reason, half of the inlet camber will contain entrapped air, almost >>> half of the pressure camber also contain entrapped air, this will reduce >>> very much the efficient of the pump. >> >> Ah! I think I understand! Are you saying that the fuel chambers will >> contain trapped air if I mount the pump flat? >> >>> Then to the bleeding hole in the pulse input "nipple elbow", this hole >>> is >>> meant to bleed out a little mixture plus eventually collected air >>> moisture >>> - this is to avoid internal corrosion inside the dry pulsing camber. >> >> So I would be best if I mounted the pump vertically and moved the bleed >> hole to the bottom of the pulse chamber. Then the pulse chamber would >> never fill even half way with fluid. >> >> >> Guy Buchanan >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >> http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:20 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re pump mounting Hi ! Guys, re which way to mount the pump I'm not going to stick my neck out here and pretend to be an expert but I do know from experience racing two strokes in Karts years ago that those diaphram pulse pumps can cause lean running mounted flat. We always assumed it was the weight of the fuel getting bounced up and down in sympathy with engine vibration causing ineficient pumping. We certainly also found mounting ignition modules flat that they soon broke off but if mounted vertically they never did. This seems to support the idea of the weight of fuel getting bounced up and down. Somewhere and I'm pretty sure it was from Rotax I read that little breather hole in the pulse line inlet elbow was to let any oil dragged in from the crankcase drain. I don't remember any further comment but it would therfore seem logical to mount the pump flat with that drain hole down and perhaps this is why it has been done. However we are left with a conflict here so perhaps the best idea is as has been suggested to mount the pump vertical, block the existing drain hole, drill a new one down low in the pulse chamber, have the fuel outlets up so the air gets out. Sounds good to me. Incidentally I'm pretty sure Rotax are the only ones using that vent hole. Makes you wonder if there is any real need but I guess the minute loss in efficiency does not warrant playing aroung without it. Rex Shaw. PS just before posting this I have looked up the Rotax Installation Manual and it says, " The fuel pump should be installed in a cool place [ not on the engine itself ], with the small drain hole near the impulse connection towards the bottom. This hole drains oil condensate from the pump diaphram chamber." ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:05 PM PST US From: "Andrew Matthaey" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A Couple Things... --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" Thanks Torgeir - I'll give those a look over when I head to the airport tomorrow! Andrew >From: Torgeir Mortensen >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: A Couple Things... >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:17:45 +0200 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Torgeir Mortensen > >Hi Andrew, > >congratulation with your multi engine / instrument certification, this is >-kind of "barrier" to pass. > >- > >Normally, a few weeks of resting for a lead acid battery should be "peace >of cake", however, if there is a leak, something in your el. system that is >draining the battery. The battery will soon loose it's capacity. > >Use an ammeter to check that no current is drawn from the battery when the >master switch is in off position. If this is OK., then check the battery >electrolyte level (assuming that you're using a standard lead acid battery) >and add distilled water if nec. > > >Is there any deposit around the battery poles (terminals)? If there is, >remove this by using hot water, don't use any brushes to scrub this stuff >away, just hot water with a rag. This is the correct way to remove this >kind of oxidation. After everything is dried up, cover the terminals with a >tiny layer of light grease (Vaseline). This will protect the terminals from >oxidation. But if your terminals is clean, you dont have to do >anything. > >If this is OK,. check that your generator system has the correct voltage, >this will be around 13,5 V in the summertime with the normal load present, >radio transponder etc. The max. load for a 582 should not be much more than >10 Amps. > >If all of the above is OK., change your battery. > >Good luck. > >Torgeir. > > >On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:10:37 -0400, Andrew Matthaey > wrote: > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" >> >> >>Well, I passed my Commercial Multi/Instrument ride yesterday in Florida - >>Yeehawww! I celebrated in First-Class on the flight back LoL - Flight >>Attendants Love Pilots ;-) so I got upgraded from steerage! Now it's off >>to get 100 hrs multi and then my resume is in for Pilot w/my airline :) >> >>So, I also flew the 'Fox today for the first time in a few weeks and found >>she wouldn't start...I figure it's the battery, so I just Hand-Propped it >>(never have before), and she started right up quite nicely. I flew into >>Manchester, a busy Class-C not far from here and shut-down for a few >>minutes - yep, started right up. From there, I flew into a Class-D and >>shut-down, and she wouldn't start back up! Tried hand-propping and >>all...ended up jumping it with a pick-up. After we got her started, I flew >>into a buddies grass-strip and shut-down - started right up! >> >>Any ideas why I would be having intermittent battery problems like that? >>Could it be the terminals, the battery itself? Is it normal to have >>problems hand-propping a 582 w/C-Box?? >> >>Thanks! >> >>Andrew >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >>http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >http://wiki.matronics.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/