Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:20 AM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (Michel Verheughe)
2. 02:11 AM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (Michael Gibbs)
3. 03:15 AM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (Michel Verheughe)
4. 03:55 AM - Re: Jackson Fly-In (Lynn Matteson)
5. 04:26 AM - Re: DAR Inspection (kirk hull)
6. 06:06 AM - Re: Trim servo (Dan Billingsley)
7. 08:55 AM - Kitfox Newbie Questions (brad@vision-technology.com)
8. 10:19 AM - Re: Jackson Fly-In (jeff puls)
9. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Jackson Fly-In (jeff puls)
10. 10:20 AM - Shut Down Procedures (jeff puls)
11. 10:50 AM - Rotax vs. Jabiru (Lowell Fitt)
12. 10:52 AM - Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! (Marwynne Kuhn)
13. 11:09 AM - Re: Shut Down Procedures (Clint Bazzill)
14. 11:21 AM - Re: Rotax vs. Jabiru (Michel Verheughe)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! (Clint Bazzill)
16. 11:32 AM - New member to the club! (Michel Verheughe)
17. 12:42 PM - Re: Rotax vs. Jabiru (darinh)
18. 12:51 PM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (darinh)
19. 01:05 PM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (darinh)
20. 01:23 PM - Re: New member to the club! (kurt schrader)
21. 01:37 PM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (kurt schrader)
22. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (kurt schrader)
23. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (kurt schrader)
24. 01:50 PM - Re: Warp drive hub.Very Strange (kurt schrader)
25. 01:54 PM - Re: speed and drag reduction (kurt schrader)
26. 02:48 PM - Re: Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! (Marwynne Kuhn)
27. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (Clint Bazzill)
28. 06:39 PM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (darinh)
29. 06:47 PM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 (darinh)
30. 07:15 PM - Re: Trim servo (wingsdown)
31. 09:28 PM - Re: Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (Clint Bazzill)
32. 09:52 PM - Re: Warp drive hub.Very Strange (John Anderson)
33. 09:55 PM - Re: speed and drag reduction (John Anderson)
34. 11:28 PM - Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? (Tom Tomlin)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Jul 2, 2006, at 6:43 AM, darinh wrote:
> I believe Michel here on the forums is the only one I know with the
> Jabiru and he is in Europe.
... but you're still welcome to visit me in Norway, Darin! If you take
an airliner to Torp ENTO, I can be there to meet you with my Kitfox!
:-)
I think both Rotax and Jabiru are fine engines. Much wisdom has been
said in this tread and I have little to add, if it isn't an
observation: Jabiru sells aircraft and engines. If you install a Jabiru
engine on another aircraft, do it as Jabiru recommends. It will be easy
and trouble-free for years to come.
On the Jabiru Yahoo list, those who have had problems are those who
think they know better that the Jabiru engineers and use unorthodox
solutions.
Last; as for any air-cooled engine, the shaping of the cowling is the
alpha and omega of temperature management. You can install a Jabiru
engine in maybe one day, but you may need many days in epoxy and
fiberglass to shape a good cowling.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>But the Rotax has the problems often talked about on our site.
>Thrown carbs, shaking start, cracks and stuff. It just makes me
>think the Jabber is a bit better.
Anyone following the light sport category developments of the last
few years will note that the Rotax 912 and 912S dominate the field.
There are also certified aircraft (such as the Diamond Katana) flying
behind certified versions of the 912. There must be a reason they
are so popular with manufacturers.
I am no expert on the Jabirus but from what I have heard from members
of the Desert Fox Squadron, the 4-stroke Rotax engines are lighter,
produce more thrust, and burn less fuel. Murle Williams told me
today of a couple of friends of his that had 912-powered 'foxes that
flew with a Jabiru-powered 'fox of the same model and configuration
on a cross country trip. The Rotax-powered planes had to slow down
by about 10 mph for the Jabiru to keep up and when they landed, the
latter took on significantly more fuel.
There is no perfect solution to any problem, and the 912 family is
not perfect either. But the problems mentioned above all have
solutions and I'm sure the 3300 has problems as well.
As for me, my last 'fox had a 912S and the next one will as well. My
Model IV-1200 with Ivo medium prop could launch in 120 feet (solo),
sustain a 40 degree climb angle, hit Vne (140 mph) in level flight,
and sipped gas like it was something expensive...wait...I guess it
is. Empty weight came in at 660 pounds.
>I simply want to have a few more ponies than 100 so I can get a bit
>more cruise out of the airplane...
Additional horsepower is not what you need to increase your cruise
speed, it's additional thrust. More horsepower MIGHT give you more
thrust but it depends upon a lot of other factors as well.
As with all opinions, this one is worth what you paid for it. :-)
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Jul 2, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
> from what I have heard from members of the Desert Fox Squadron, the
> 4-stroke Rotax engines are lighter, produce more thrust, and burn less
> fuel.
I don't know, Mike, since I never had a 912 but I think it would be
strange that a Rotax, with its gearbox and water cooling system is
lighter than a Jabiru. My fuel consumption at cruise speed (Kitfox 3)
is about 12 liters per hour. How does that compare to a 80 HP Rotax?
Here is an interesting link from UK:
http://www.sportair.co.uk/cgi-bin/Page87L2.htm
Cheers,
Michel
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Jackson Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I just re-sent them, Jeff. I sent them through your personal
address...again, let me know if they make it.
Lynn
do not archive
On Saturday, July 1, 2006, at 10:25 PM, jeff puls wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
>
> Lynn,
> Didn't come through. Thanks anyway. Jeff
> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 5:58 PM
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@sbcglobal.net>
I know the feeling 205AK was signed off a little over a week ago. It has 5
hours on it now but I have yet to fly it yet. I have very little tail wheel
time and thought it best to let someone with more experiance fly off the 40
so I can use an instructor for my first flight. You are lucky to be able to
fly with someone else in a similar plane to get the feel of it
---Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:58 PM
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 11:06 AM 7/1/2006, you wrote:
>What's that? Two years to make it fly and 11 to make
>it look that good??? I suspect it will fly on
>pride and use lift as a backup.
Thanks for all the kind words. Yes, I'm excited, because more and more I'm
thinking I'll do the first flight. Robert Harris was exceedingly kind to me
today, taking me up for an hour or so and even letting me try to land his
O-200 series 5. He's a very brave man. I'm going to get some more hours
this week and do some more taxi tests to ascertain whether the cooling
system's going to work.
Thanks again,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Recently someone advertised a trim servo for $400.00...indicating that he spent
$1000 on it new. Are we talking the elevator trim tab servo? I just checked on
new ones and they can be purchased for under $200.00??
Dan
AMuller589@aol.com wrote:
These can also be repaired economically.
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Kitfox Newbie Questions |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: brad@vision-technology.com
Hi Everybody,
I'm new here. Just sold my Cherokee 180 and am in the market for either a IV-1200
or a RANS S6. So I thought I might find some help on the IV-1200.
2 questions for starters:
1) Is the IV a relatively tame taildragger? I haven't flown TD in 4 years. Before
that had 60 hours in a Fisher Classic and 140 hours in Hatz biplane.
2) What kind of cruise should I expect with a 80 or 100hp Rotax. (I know that
varies a lot, just curious about general ranges).
Thanks!
Brad
Mandan ND
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Jackson Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
Lynn,
They did. Thanks. They look great. Jeff
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:54 AM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> I just re-sent them, Jeff. I sent them through your personal
> address...again, let me know if they make it.
>
> Lynn
> do not archive
> On Saturday, July 1, 2006, at 10:25 PM, jeff puls wrote:
>
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
>>
>> Lynn,
>> Didn't come through. Thanks anyway. Jeff
>> ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 5:58 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Jackson Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" <pulsair@mindspring.com>
Great!! Count me in. Jeff
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 11:36 PM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
> Jeff,
>
> Lynn took more photos than I did but here's a shot of him giving us a
> listen to his Jabiru.
>
> Best wishes to you and your wife through the challenge.
>
> Bill Willyard suggested a brunch flyin at his base near Jennision MI this
> fall. I didn't catch the date but will let you know.
>
> Maybe this can be Kitfox fall gathering.
> I hope we can meet up then.
>
> --------
> Richard in SW Michigan
> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44269#44269
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/lynn_starting_up_196.jpg
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Shut Down Procedures |
Clint,
What is your shut down procedure for the 912ULS? Will it work on a
912UL. Mine shakes on shutdown. I even have the shorter spacers in the
engine mount. Jeff Classic IV 912UL
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Rotax vs. Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Michel,
During the Rotax vs. NSI EA-81 weight dicussions, Murle Williams weighed
both and the Rotax 912 UL came in at 169 lbs with fluids, so I am told by
one of the Desert Fox guys. He put everything on a platform scale and
weighed the whole thing in one shot. Accordint to Jabiru USA, the 2200
weighs 132 lbs. This appears to save about 30 lbs, but one weight is from a
builder assist shop and the other is from the vendor (?), The 3300, which
is the engine in the discussion is reported to weigh 178 lbs for a weight
penalty of 11 lbs for the additional 20 hp and the Rotax 912 ULS weight is a
bit higher - well under 10 lbs I believe. This is not bad if all that power
can be transferred through the
prop.
Last week during the first leg of the Utah flight, I flew 3.5 hours and
burned 14.2 US gallons and the line boy topped up the fuel tanks higher than
I did on departure so actual fuel burn was a tad less than that. Using that
number and the
handy on line volume conversion and a calculator, I find that I burned 4.057
gallons per hour and the equivalent of 15.4 liters per hour - somewhat more
than your 12 liters per hour, but keep in mind this included an initial
climb to 10,500 feet to clear the Sierras - 9,300 foot (net) - and a cruise
of about 105 mph. As the crow flies the distance was 314 miles and in
actuality was probably closer to 325 miles or so given that we fly the
highways when traversing the mountains and diverted a bit to Derby (LOL)
because we thought three other airplanes - Rans, in fact - were expected to
catch up to us there - they didn't so we pressed on.
It is interesting that in the article you referenced - good read,
incidentally - the cruise RPMs given for the Rotax (4750) is well below the
Rotax allowable cruise of (5500). In fact Rotax recommends that cruise be
kept above 5000 rpm due to gear box issues. My cruise was about 5000
during my trip. My only fault in the article is that data like that can be
confusing. For example, there is a beautiful Grass Strip in Idaho called
Johnson Creek. It is over 3000 ft long and 150 ft wide. All arrivals are
made to the south to avoid over flying the donors private residence and all
departures are made to the North for essentially the same reason. There is
a ridge that extends partially into the valley floor to the East beyind the
departure end of the runway with a fork in the river turning Eastward behind
it. The main river turning gently Westward beyind the fork and beneath a
high ridge we call the notch. A typical deperture is to lift off and
immediately turn toward the right side of the canyon to catch any ridge lift
there. The airplane seems to disappear behind the Eastern ridge as it
follows the contour and reappears as it flies against the slope under the
"notch" only to disappear again behind the ridge to the West as it follows
the main river to gain altitude. The typical certified airplane departing
will be about 1/3 the height of the "notch" as it passes Westward below it.
One of our testesterone tests is to see who can climb straight through the
"notch" We fly in loose formation so the conditions are all identical, as
are likely the flying weights (Max Gross) as we all have our camping gear
including camp chair, full fuel etc. I think this type of test could settle
most questions, but not all, of course. It includes not only the climb
performance of the airframe, engine and prop, but addresses cooling issues
as well. On the upward slide of the Sierras last week some of the Rans
lagged behind due to cooling issues. That was not engine related, but
rather installation related as we were all running Rotax. If the airframe
was all Kitfox, the same issues might surface, but it could then be more
easily thought of as an engine issue as engine / prop mated to airframe is
the real issue as far as performance is concerned.
Then, of course would be the long straight flights at all sorts of altitudes
in cruise and then the inevitable fuel stop and all the eyes on the fuel
quantity gauge. We are, in fact, a competitive, though congeniel group.
What does all this mean? Who knows. That is why I would look forward to a
Jabiru powered airplane to accompany us to the back country to evaluate the
performance in all perameters - cooling, fuel burn, climb, cruise etc.
After the four or five trips there with the airplanes, engines and props, I
think there are some conclusions that can be made. we just need more
variety in engines. We have had a 582 on three of the trips, GSC, Warp as
well as NSI CAP and PowerFin props, clean airplanes, and cleaned up
airplanes. The rest of the engines have been 912 ULs and 912 ULSs, Kitfox
IVs and Vs nothing newer than that and of course the Rans S6S and Rans S7.
And of course the pilots - big differences can be seen there too. Some can
just get more out of an airplane than others can.
Personally, I would go again with the Rotax, but that is what I know and for
me it has been near bulletproof. No cooling issues, never a thrown
carburetor, no cracks anywhere, but to be strictly honest I suffered four
stuck valves in Afton Wyoming two years ago on the way to Oshkosh - likely
from the lead in the Avgas. This was solved by running a couple of quarts
of ATF through the engine there - we couldn't find Marvel Mystery oil. I
carry it faithfully now, but haven't used any, except in my lawnmower.
Incidentally, I just went through 790 hours on the way home last week.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 3:05 AM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On Jul 2, 2006, at 11:09 AM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
>
>> from what I have heard from members of the Desert Fox Squadron, the
>> 4-stroke Rotax engines are lighter, produce more thrust, and burn less
>> fuel.
>
> I don't know, Mike, since I never had a 912 but I think it would be
> strange that a Rotax, with its gearbox and water cooling system is lighter
> than a Jabiru. My fuel consumption at cruise speed (Kitfox 3) is about 12
> liters per hour. How does that compare to a 80 HP Rotax? Here is an
> interesting link from UK:
>
> http://www.sportair.co.uk/cgi-bin/Page87L2.htm
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marwynne Kuhn" <marwynne@verizon.net>
I found a number for the shock mounts that support my electronic modules on
my 912ul. (Skystar part number 47000 shock mount). Any body have an idea
where to purchase them. I have one that broke completely and two that are
have dry rot. Any help would be appreciated,
Thanks Guys
Marwynne
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Shut Down Procedures |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax vs. Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Jul 2, 2006, at 7:48 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> Personally, I would go again with the Rotax, but that is what I know
> and for me it has been near bulletproof.
I am sure it is, Lowell. As I wrote earlier, both are fine engines,
and, as you wrote yourself, we need different engines to choose from.
The more the better.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | New member to the club! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Hello lister, please welcome a new member to the ground loop club!
Today, I went flying in the mountains with my son, he was the PIC. We
landed at one of our favourite mountain airfield and ... it ended with
a ground loop. A gentle one, at low speed. We couldn't figure out why
it happened, until he gave throttle to taxi to the apron when I noticed
the unusual nose up attitude and the rattling sound behind. ... we
broke the tailwheel spring!
Lift the tail, push the plane to the apron, assess the damages. The
spring broke in two, the tailwheel is fine, the rudder has the typical
damage of such an accident: some pipe welding, fabric gluing, paint,
and it will be fine. One and half hour away by plane and three by car,
what were we to do? Someone came along, presented himself as an Avid
Flyer pilot with a car repair workshop nearby. He said he could
provisory weld and reinforce the spring so that we could fly home.
Which he did, and we flew home with no problem.
But, what now? Can I get a new tailwheel spring for a model 3
somewhere? If not, what about the aluminium one? Could I get someone
here to make me a custom-made spring? Is it wise?
I know that has been discussed before on the list but I don't remember
the "bottom line." Please refresh my memory as I wish to fix that ASAP
since we are at the best season of the year for flying. Thanks in
advance.
Cheers,
Michel
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Rotax vs. Jabiru |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
Lowell,
I may very well be that "other" Kitfox to fly into Idaho with you in year or so
if I go with the Jabiru. I am located out of Ogden, Utah and get into Idaho
a number of times a year. It would be great to be able to compare a number of
different engines on essentially the same airframe. However, I don't want to
regret my engine choice as it is a very significant amount of money so I will
keep doing my homework and hopefully make the best decision for me and my type
of flying. Once the choice is made it is a bit difficult to swap as you know.
Thanks for the input,
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44397#44397
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
Michel,
Thanks for the invite! I have an older brother who lived in Norway for a couple
of years and speaks the language fluently. I have always wanted to take a fishing
trip there with him so this may be a good excuse. If I get there, I will
definately look you up. I appreciate you posts and comments on the Jabiru.
The engine is definately a work of art and is simply beautiful being completely
CNC machined...if overall looks of the engine were the only judging point,
the Jabiru would be it for sure.
About the cowling and cooling issues. I understand that it is imperative that
cooling be addressed with any engine and that it may take more effort to properly
fit baffling, etc. than it does to install the engine. My understanding is
that Jabiru makes a complete FWF kit for the Series 7 and I would expect that
they have included any baffling that would be necessary to ensure the engine
runs within its limits. I will definately let you all know which route I choose.
Thanks,
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44399#44399
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
Michel,
My last Fox (Model III like yours) had the 80 hp 912 and it burned right around
what you are getting with the 2200...about 3-3.5 gph at 75%.
Mike,
I understand that it is thrust that give you speed but as you said this is dependent
on a whole lot more than your engine's power. It depends very much on the
prop as well. That is why I am trying to figure out if the Jabiru is compatible
with an in-flight adjustable prop. If so, I would think that you could
get very good use out of the extra 20 hp by adjusting the prop and hence getting
a bit more speed out of the airplane. I appreciate your input and as stated,
have no problems with the 912 (I have owned one and loved it and will most
likely go with another for this kit) I simply want to explore my options and I
figure you guys can help me make and informed decision.
Can anyone out there give me some real life data on a Series 7 with a 912S and
an IFA prop? What kind of cruise do you see?...How about climb rates? Keep in
mind that I am in Utah (4500' msl) so the sea level data doesn't mean much to
me. I would like to find someone who has flown in and out of say...the Idaho
backcountry with the setup mentioned. Anybody got any numbers...?
Thanks,
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44400#44400
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: New member to the club! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Michel,
You just wanted to do it before I did! :-) Where I
am hangared now, there is a nearly contunious 12-20
mph crosswind on the long runway. The grass rwy is
into the wind more, but sometimes requires floats.
I'll have plenty of chances to square dance at this
airport.
If you can find a good local spring builder, that
would be my first choice for Norway. Isn't that how
the name "Leaf Spring" came about??? :-)
Well, even if not, the ability to make a good one
should be age old. Better to make it several small
leaves than one thick one so a break is a weaking
instead of a failure.
Then some springs from Aircraft Spruce are known to
fit, if you want to send for them.
Finally, if the New KitFox company has the sources,
you can try to be an early customer.
I don't think Grove makes the Aluminum ones any more.
Oh, and check with the EuroFox company and see if they
have a spring near you.
Wish there was a carbon fiber spring out there....
Glad it was a minor problem, not one requiring full
power to taxi.
Kurt S.
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
> Hello lister, please welcome a new member to the
> ground loop club! ...........
__________________________________________________
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Darin,
You sure know how to stir things up. People here
marry their engines like they do their planes.
Luckily you didn't ask which was better, a Fox or a
Rans. :-)
Someone here has a 3300 on a Fox, but I forgot who.
I am not an owner of either engine choice, so I hope
impartial.
John McBean sells some inflight adjustables props and
has some good data on them, if he is around and has
the time to share. I think he has been flying with
them himself.
I think it is the weight and stiffness or resonance of
the prop that is the issue with the Jabbers. The
first engines had cranks that were too light for some
of the props people tried. I think that was fixed,
but a light weight prop is still required.
You have the extra HP from the 3300, even with the
greater fixed pitch prop loss. If you can use an
adjustable, it should be a great performer. Closer to
a 914 at much less price and repair costs.
The Roo 3300 is certainly a simpler installation to
work on, assuming you can remove the ducting easily.
Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo/CAP
--- darinh <gerns25@netscape.net> wrote:
> Michel,
>
> My last Fox (Model III like yours) had the 80 hp 912
> and it burned right around what you are getting with
> the 2200...about 3-3.5 gph at 75%.
>
> Mike,
>
> I understand that it is thrust that give you speed
> but as you said this is dependent on a whole lot
> more than your engine's power. It depends very much
> on the prop as well. That is why I am trying to
> figure out if the Jabiru is compatible with an
> in-flight adjustable prop. If so, I would think
> that you could get very good use out of the extra 20
> hp by adjusting the prop and hence getting a bit
> more speed out of the airplane. I appreciate your
> input and as stated, have no problems with the 912
> (I have owned one and loved it and will most likely
> go with another for this kit) I simply want to
> explore my options and I figure you guys can help me
> make and informed decision.
>
> Can anyone out there give me some real life data on
> a Series 7 with a 912S and an IFA prop? What kind
> of cruise do you see?...How about climb rates? Keep
> in mind that I am in Utah (4500' msl) so the sea
> level data doesn't mean much to me. I would like to
> find someone who has flown in and out of say...the
> Idaho backcountry with the setup mentioned. Anybody
> got any numbers...?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Darin
__________________________________________________
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Michel,
--- Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
...............
> Here is an interesting link from UK:
>
> http://www.sportair.co.uk/cgi-bin/Page87L2.htm
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
Good link and story. I do think the engines are
almost equal and you have to go with the little
preferences, or less price.
Kurt S.
__________________________________________________
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Darin,
--- darinh <gerns25@netscape.net> wrote:
>..... It is my understanding that the 7 was built
> with the 914 in mind and thus the much higher cruise
> speeds......
I think the cruise speed increase was more a function
of "true speed" gained at high altitude with a turbo
than the greater HP. It probably indicated around the
same as other fox's. If you really want that speed,
you need the turbo and to fly high.
Kurt S.
__________________________________________________
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Warp drive hub.Very Strange |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I just stuck by the book on mine and the rigging
turned out square on the ground and in flight, just
slow. I used a gravity, not digital inclinometer
(?)to get it right.
I suspect some reflex of the flapperons is called for
and I can do a bit quickly thru the flap linkage. On
the to-do list.
Thanks John,
Kurt S.
--- John Anderson <janderson412@hotmail.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
Hmmm, I originally set all my controls up with a
spirit level, but then on the final setup used a
electronic inclinonmeter(?spelling) and changed the
flaperons quite a lot. GPS confirms ASI too. Could be
that Kurt. John
__________________________________________________
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: speed and drag reduction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
That is what I think to Deke.
I checked my ASI and it was within 2 knots. That
might have changed a little with the scoop added
because it disturbes the airflow differently behind it
compared to the raw radiator.
I would sure like to see 105 knots at around 4 GPH. I
burn 5 GPH to get 85 now. But I purposely started
with no siginificant drag reductions on the plane. I
wanted to see what each would do as I add them and
report that. Still have a lot to go.
Library is closing. Got to go.
Kurt S.
--- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
> Kurt, assuming your airspeed is accurate, something
> is definitely wrong......
__________________________________________________
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts! |
Thanks Clint, I will give them a look see. have a great day
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:20 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill"
McMaster Carr as just what you need. At a tenth the price. Cllint
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Marwynne Kuhn" <marwynne@verizon.net>
To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Electronic Moudle Shock Mounts!
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 12:52:27 -0700
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Marwynne Kuhn"
<marwynne@verizon.net>
I found a number for the shock mounts that support my electronic modules
on
my 912ul. (Skystar part number 47000 shock mount). Any body have an
idea
where to purchase them. I have one that broke completely and two that
are
have dry rot. Any help would be appreciated,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
I agree with Kurt, the high cruise with the 914 was at altitude and I am not going
to be cruising at 15k plus so I ruled this engine out long ago.
Clint,
clint_bazzill(at)hotmail. wrote:
> If you want speed, don't build a slow airplane. Clint
I think you have misunderstood my use of "cruise speed". I am not looking for
blazing speed...I know that the kitfox is not fast and I don't expect it to be
(I have owned one before you know, a Model III that cruised at 75 - 80). I am
perfectly aware that I am not going to break any speed records in one. That
being said, I would like to get as much speed as possible without sacrificing
the reason I am building another Kitfox...low and slow, tree-top flying with
those short backcountry strips in mind. I have a cabin with a private 1300' one
way strip located the Bitterroot mountains (within 100 nm of virtually all
the strips in Idaho) that I need to get in and out of. But, I live in Utah and
I would love to have a cruise of say 120 - 130ish which would put flight time
at approximately 3 -3.5 hours assuming usual winds. I am simply trying to learn
if the Jabiru 3300 will provide this type of cruise while maintaining the
great short field properties of the Kitfox...if not I will go with the proven
912S.
It sounds like nobody can tell me if the Jabiru will provide me with both, so it
will come down to a decision and without any other first hand field experience,
I would have to say I would go with the Rotax because I know its performance,
which by the way is good enough for me, just always looking and hoping for
more.
By the way, if I would have wanted all-out speed, I would have continued with the
build of my RV7 but cut that short for another Kitfox because that is where
my flying passion lies...on the undeveloped strips of Idaho and Utah.
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44459#44459
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300 |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho wrote:
> Darin,
>
> You sure know how to stir things up. People here
> marry their engines like they do their planes.
> Luckily you didn't ask which was better, a Fox or a
> Rans. :-)
I guess they do but I wouldn't be so ignorant to ask such a thing as which was
better a Fox or a Rans...the answer is obvious isn't it? [Wink] ...I love the
Rotax...just looking at options.
>
> You have the extra HP from the 3300, even with the
> greater fixed pitch prop loss. If you can use an
> adjustable, it should be a great performer. Closer to
> a 914 at much less price and repair costs.
That would be exactly what I am looking for! Just don't know if it is compatible
with the IFA props. I will talk to Jabiru tomorrow.
Darin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44462#44462
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Dan,
That someone was me. You had me contact you off list with a price. I
think I had it listed for 500 and told you 400. I have only the info
Skystar quoted me when I was wanting a spare and that was 1200. I
thought 400 was a steal. If the Part numbers match by all means go with
the new 200 dollar unit. Please send me a pic of the new unit when you
get it so I know what to ask for mine down the road. For those that
may want the one Dan is suggesting, don't tell them it is going on an
airplane. Electric lift for a boat cover maybe.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Billingsley
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:04 AM
Recently someone advertised a trim servo for $400.00...indicating that
he spent $1000 on it new. Are we talking the elevator trim tab servo? I
just checked on new ones and they can be purchased for under $200.00??
Dan
AMuller589@aol.com wrote:
These can also be repaired economically.
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found ---
A message with no text/plain MIME section was received.
The entire body of the message was removed. Please
resend the email using Plain Text formatting.
HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section
in their client's default configuration. If you're using
HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings
and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text".
--- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found ---
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Warp drive hub.Very Strange |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
I guess Kurt a bit of trial and error in the flaperon area may tell you a
lot...Spoke to my son (my LAME and rigger). Said if it's flying wings level
and both flapperons travel is the same it should be ok. In my early fixed
wing days we had one C185 that was just a 'dog', from day one and nothing on
earth would make it go..someone put it through fence in the end to nobodys
surprise. Not suggesting you wee love machine is in that cat but I was
flying mine this afternoon and just lower the nose in cruise a little an 110
just like that?? And hard to slow it on approach too with the tapered
prop... Be good if you were just down the road, we could compare..John
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
I just stuck by the book on mine and the rigging
turned out square on the ground and in flight, just
slow. I used a gravity, not digital inclinometer
(?)to get it right.
I suspect some reflex of the flapperons is called for
and I can do a bit quickly thru the flap linkage. On
the to-do list.
Thanks John,
Kurt S.
--- John Anderson <janderson412@hotmail.com> wrote:
---------------------------------
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson"
Hmmm, I originally set all my controls up with a
spirit level, but then on the final setup used a
electronic inclinonmeter(?spelling) and changed the
flaperons quite a lot. GPS confirms ASI too. Could be
that Kurt. John
__________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals
http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid 0731
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: speed and drag reduction |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Could be quite a lot of drag created at the back end of the radiator. I'm
sure the air behind mine isn't happy as at higher speeds there is quite a
buffeting vibration, I had an exit cowl but it cracked so raw in that area
at the moment but intend to build another. John
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
That is what I think to Deke.
I checked my ASI and it was within 2 knots. That
might have changed a little with the scoop added
because it disturbes the airflow differently behind it
compared to the raw radiator.
I would sure like to see 105 knots at around 4 GPH. I
burn 5 GPH to get 85 now. But I purposely started
with no siginificant drag reductions on the plane. I
wanted to see what each would do as I add them and
report that. Still have a lot to go.
Library is closing. Got to go.
Kurt S.
--- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
> Kurt, assuming your airspeed is accurate, something
> is definitely wrong......
__________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 912s vs. Jabiru 3300? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Tomlin" <ThomasTomlin@comcast.net>
Darin,
Sorry I'm jumping in here late, but I just thought I'd throw in a couple
more comments here.
I'm heading out for a two week vacation on the 4th, so I probably will not
be able to answer
any questions before I go.
I have a 3300 on my IV Speedster.
Yes, I also had some teething problems with it...
Running hot...worked on the baffling.
Oil temp too high/low...worked on the oil cooler scoop.
Not enough speed..changed 60" Jab wood to 64" Sensenich G.A. prop
Cabin heat...still wish I had some...
Fuel burn too high...installed carb economy kit...what a difference!
Is any of this different from any new engine installation???
Probably not, but the knowledge base is better for the Rotax...
for now anyway.
What do I really know......I like it!
Is it the best engine out there???? Absolutely...
Not.
All engines, props and for that matter airplanes are a compromise.
I recently flew from Greeley CO to St Francis KS (150 miles) for the
Stearman Fly-in.
Next day a storm came in, so I flew 30 miles south to hangar overnight.
Next morning back to St Francis to buy fuel.
Those three legs total 210 miles and three warmups from cold.
You should have seen the Stearman drivers face after I'd told him where I'd
been
and the pump stopped at 8.4 gallons....priceless.
I'm probably the guy Murle Williams was talking about that flew to the
desert
Fox fly-in last year. We were three IV speedsters. Theirs were 912ul and
IFA Ivoprops.
Their planes were also much cleaner aerodynamically. I had no wheel pants
and 6.00x6
Clevelands hanging out in the breeze.
Yes, they had to slow down for me and I burned more fuel...a bunch more.
I'd like to make that trek again this year. It'll be cheaper and faster.
What I have is a nice sounding, simple, smooth, and powerful engine.
Theirs can descend quicker...less shock cooling risk and IFA prop is a big
plus.
Their cabins were warm. I'm still fuddling with an ineffective heat system.
I think you know all the other plusses and minuses.
Am I glad I installed a Jabiru?
How about I fly to Utah, maybe in late August and you can see one happy
owner.
Is it the Jabiru engine that makes me so happy?
Heck no...It's because I flying a Kitfox!
And if I could afford it, I'd have a big old thirsty Stearman too....
Tom Tomlin
N5XT
132.3 hours in 13 months...but who's counting?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 10:29 PM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" <gerns25@netscape.net>
>
> I am trying to make a decision between the 912s and the Jabiru 3300 for my
> series 7 and would like any and all comments or thoughts on either one.
> If anyone has experience with both, their comments would be greatly
> appreciated. I like the fact that the Jabiru doesn't have a gearbox and
> has 20 more hp. I also like the fact that it has a longer TBO and the
> cost of that overhaul is substantially less than the Rotax. The Jabiru is
> a bit heavier but not much so the weight to hp ratio is about the same. I
> have owned a 912UL and I know they are bulletproof (at least mine was),
> but...
>
> All comments welcome.
>
> Thanks, Darin
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=44086#44086
>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|