Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:01 AM - Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. (Guy Buchanan)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. (Dave)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. (Noel Loveys)
4. 07:27 AM - Re: (off topic) Sailor stuff (Noel Loveys)
5. 07:27 AM - Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. (Noel Loveys)
6. 08:07 AM - Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. (Marco Menezes)
7. 08:20 AM - Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. (Dave)
8. 08:48 AM - Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. (Dave G.)
9. 09:35 AM - Re: (off topic) Sailor stuff (Michel Verheughe)
10. 12:07 PM - Kitfox done Cessna goes (ron schick)
11. 12:45 PM - Classic IV for sale (Don Smythe)
12. 01:03 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Dave)
13. 01:17 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Don Smythe)
14. 01:23 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (jareds)
15. 02:06 PM - Re: Kitfox Crash talk after the fact (wingnut)
16. 02:21 PM - Stall in a side slip (Michel Verheughe)
17. 02:26 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Dan Billingsley)
18. 02:35 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (AMuller589@aol.com)
19. 03:08 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (kitfoxmike)
20. 03:29 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Dave)
21. 03:55 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (Dave and Diane)
22. 04:06 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (Ceashman@aol.com)
23. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Stall in a side slip (AMuller589@aol.com)
24. 04:27 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (Dave)
25. 04:27 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (John Marzulli)
26. 04:48 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (kitfoxmike)
27. 04:51 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (kitfoxmike)
28. 06:07 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Roger Standley)
29. 06:42 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (wingsdown)
30. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Stall in a side slip (Dave)
31. 08:28 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Mark Thompson)
32. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Stall in a side slip (Randy Daughenbaugh)
33. 09:59 PM - Re: rpm cruise? (Mark Thompson)
34. 10:11 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (AMuller589@aol.com)
35. 10:45 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (John Anderson)
36. 10:46 PM - Re: Stall in a side slip (John Anderson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 05:31 PM 7/27/2006, you wrote:
>On a side bar, you may want to use some heat resistant
>silicone or RTV to put around every opening you have in the firewall.
>Example would be a heater hose or throttle cable opening. It seals nicely
>and keeps fumes out. Jeff Classic IV
I used the 3m fire barrier and caulk, both expand and char when fired,
sealing the opening regardless of what burns inside. I sealed the firewall
and doors today so tomorrow's flight should be different. (Couldn't fly
today due to crosswinds.) I should get my tube tomorrow so I'll extend over
the weekend.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight. The Short and the Long. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Guy,
I doubt your fumes come through firewall. Your ball and sockets will seal
and work well with never seize paste on them. Where did you use the 3m fire
barrier caulk?
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:05 AM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> At 05:31 PM 7/27/2006, you wrote:
>>On a side bar, you may want to use some heat resistant
>>silicone or RTV to put around every opening you have in the firewall.
>>Example would be a heater hose or throttle cable opening. It seals nicely
>>and keeps fumes out. Jeff Classic IV
>
> I used the 3m fire barrier and caulk, both expand and char when fired,
> sealing the opening regardless of what burns inside. I sealed the firewall
> and doors today so tomorrow's flight should be different. (Couldn't fly
> today due to crosswinds.) I should get my tube tomorrow so I'll extend
> over the weekend.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | First Flight. The Short and the Long. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Why not check the plugs after every flight until you get the EGT readings
sorted out? It only takes a few minutes and that's using the torque wrench.
Noel
> >After you next few flights you should check your plugs to
> cross referance
> >your EGT gauges and make sure your mixture running ok and
> when weather gets
> >colder and air gets thicker a richer setting will be needed.
>
> I will.
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | (off topic) Sailor stuff |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
If you're going to batten the hatches to ride out a storm be sure to use a
sea anchor to keep you headed into the wind.
When the weather is that foul the best place for the boat to be is on the
collar. The best place for the sailor is ashore. Too bad it doesn't always
work that way.
Noel
> Absolutely, Richard. It's a question of choice. In my
> sailboat, I have
> two survival suits, the type used in the offshore oil industry up
> north. It will keep you alive 24 hours in sub-zero temperature. But I
> don't want a survival raft. My idea of riding a gale/storm is to stay
> inside, lock all hatches, and wait for the weather to change.
Message 5
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| Subject: | First Flight. The Short and the Long. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Don't worry too much about the EGT readings until you verify your plugs are
showing a good combustion. If your EGTs are reading 950 and you have nice
tan plugs then accept the fact that the location of your EGT sensors is such
that normal for you is 950.... If your plugs are a dirty black try
1050-1100 on your next flight and check the plugs again.
It also helps if you don't have to idle the plane for an hour to get back to
your parking.
I guess with the HAC, wish I had one, you intentionally jet a bit rich and
correct to normal with the dial.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Don Smythe
> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 2:34 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: First Flight. The Short and the Long.
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
> I don't have any knowledge or experience with the HAC. I always Jet
> according to the Jetting chart taking into account OAT's and
> altitude. That
> always puts me pretty close but as I said before, prop pitch
> plays a pretty
> big role on EGT's (too much pitch=LOW EGT's and too little pitch=HIGH
> EGT's.) You should be seeing in the area of 1100 degree
> EGT's at cruise.
>
> Don Smythe
>
> ---- Original Message -----
>
> > Thanks Don. My EGT's were about 980, but I've got the HACman mixture
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. |
Dave -
Where would one get that "never seize" paste for exhaust joints? I hear alot
about it, can't find in any of my catalogs.
Dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave"
Guy,
I doubt your fumes come through firewall. Your ball and sockets will seal
and work well with never seize paste on them.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. |
http://www.neverseezproducts.com/
any auto parts store will have it .
it got copper , alum and all kinds of stuff in it. Looks silvery like
when you put it on and it will lubricate the ball joints in exhaust and
helps seal them too.
Permatex makes it as well - does not have to be brand name above.
Most mechanics use it on many applications.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight.
Dave -
Where would one get that "never seize" paste for exhaust joints? I
hear alot about it, can't find in any of my catalogs.
Dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave"
Guy,
I doubt your fumes come through firewall. Your ball and sockets will
seal
and work well with never seize paste on them.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight. |
You should be able to find Permatex silver anti-sieze at most automotive
parts stores. Use a VERY thin film unless you want to clean it off
everything else inside the cowling.
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Exhaust Sealant - WAS First Flight.
Dave -
Where would one get that "never seize" paste for exhaust joints? I
hear alot about it, can't find in any of my catalogs.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: (off topic) Sailor stuff |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Jul 28, 2006, at 4:08 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> If you're going to batten the hatches to ride out a storm be sure to
> use a
> sea anchor to keep you headed into the wind.
Well, Noel, I have read about everything that has been written about
sailing, since Joshua Slocum and there are different schools of
thought. The first aspect is if there is a lee shore or not. If not,
most sailors will prefer to run with the weather and, to prevent
broaching, will pay out, from the stern, a rope - as long as possible -
to slow the ship and keep her straight.
If leeway is to be kept to a minimum, most will heave to by simply
latching the tiller to the lee side, keeping the ship at an angle to
the weather. But most think (and it is also my own experience) that a
sea anchor has little effect on a deep keel sailboat since both the
ship and the anchor will drift at about the same rate.
Sea anchors are usually very cumbersome to handle. They have a rigid
ring to keep them open and they need a tripping line for recovery. In
the 70s, I designed a better sea anchor that I tried to commercially
manufacture but ... I am not a businessman. The principle is inspired
from the release parachute that pulls the main parachute out of its
bag. It can be easily folded into a bag and the entire package is
extremely compact, made out of spinnaker nylon.
But then again, such a sea anchor is, in my humble opinion, only useful
for motorboats with little depth and superstructure that offers a
strong windage.
> When the weather is that foul the best place for the boat to be is
> on the
> collar. The best place for the sailor is ashore. Too bad it doesn't
> always
> work that way.
That is true and I have no respect for a sailor that sets sail in a bad
weather forecast. But if say, you want to cross the Bay of Biscay, you
can't predict the weather for a long time and you have to take what is
coming. My slowest crossing was 9 days and my fastest was 5 days.
When the forecast gets nasty, the hard decision is to either try to
make it to a safe harbour before the worst is over us, or try to make
for open waters and ride it in a safe open place. Because the worst
place to be in bad weather is ... near the coast.
... pretty much like flying. The worse place to experience turbulence
is ... near the ground.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kitfox done Cessna goes |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "ron schick" <roncarolnikko@hotmail.com>
Now that my Kitfox has it's aw certificate I need to lose an airplane. I
currently have my KF IV Speedster, an Avid A model, and a Cessna 152. I
love all of my birds, but there comes a point. I plan to list the 152 on
Barnstormers soon, but if anyone on the list is interested I'll let it go
anytime. Email off list for info. Sorry to advertise, but thought you and
the Avid list should get first chance. Thanks Ron NB Oregon. 541KF
117AF 67779
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
Message 11
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| Subject: | Classic IV for sale |
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine
in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more
than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off list
and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less
of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine
in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more
than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off list
and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
I'm getting blasted by several for selling too cheap. Maybe I should up
the price???? I have a very bad habit when it comes to selling things.
When I make up my mind to sell, I want it gone the same day if possible.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or
less of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through
mine in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K
(more than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off
list and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
I just sent Don an email to that effect. Amazing
Dave wrote:
> It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or
> less of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
> Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
> pricing.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Don Smythe <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
> To: Kitfox List <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
>
> While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through
> mine in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take
> $20K (more than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me
> a note off list and I'll give all the specifics.
>
> Priced to sell (I hope)
> Don Smythe
> dosmythe@cox.net <mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Crash talk after the fact |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut@spamarrest.com>
ah. That makes sense. Scary stuff landing off field. I try to make it a habbit
to scope out possible emergency landing sites wherever I fly. When possible, I
like to double check from the ground. Often, the field looks much uglier from
the ground than it does from the air. Power lines can be very hard to spot and
they're all over the place out here in SC. They just don't like to bury those
things.
Luis Rodriguez
824KF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50401#50401
Message 16
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| Subject: | Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
A question, friends:
Since I have now changed my mag testing switches and that I can switch
off my engine in flight, I do as much as I can dead-stick landings,
just to practice and not be surprised if it should happen one day
involuntary.
Doing that, I also try to do precision landing, thinking of the day I
may have to land on a field, maybe a short one. I come on final a bit
high, switch off the engine and adjust my vertical speed by side
slipping. I do it all the way to the threshold, even with full rudder
on the side, sometimes.
Talking about it with my son, he asks if it is not dangerous to side
slip so near the ground and if there is some danger to stall in a
uncoordinated attitude like a side slip.
My understanding is that a stall in a side slip is not too dangerous
because the wing up will stall first and if you are quick enough to
center the controls before it falls down, nothing will happen.
... but then, I am not so sure anymore. Has any of you tried to stall
in a side slip? Is it dangerous?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
I'm going to add my two cents worth here as well (perhaps just a penny). I believe
the resale price of our awesome birds needs to be elevated. I have also been
surprised at how low I see some of these planes go for. To invest so much time
and money in anything and then just blow it off at selling time is not doing
our brotherhood any favors. Value is value and we should not sell ourselves
short. I am currently building a IV speedster with a 912s. I will have over $40,000
invested when all is said and done. If I choose to sell the plane I would
hate to think about the loss I would take in this market. We as a group do
have a choice to change the market. We have a well known product and should treat
it as such. List what the plane is worth and don't take anything less.
Dan Billingsley
Mesa, AZ
PS...OshKosh was awesome and John and Deb were having great intrest in our new
Kitfox Aircraft company.
jareds <jareds@verizon.net> wrote:
I just sent Don an email to that effect. Amazing
Dave wrote:
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less
of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine in too.
I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more than $30K invested).
If anyone is interested, send me a note off list and I'll give all the
specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
How does one enter a spin: stall with full rudder!!!!!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
Hum, a stall on a slip, now let me ask this, don't you stall with critical angle
of attack. Now let me ask this, don't you slip with down elevator, I do. So
at this point unless you get to low in your airspeed, which I make sure is ok
before slipping, than you shouldn't have a stall on a slip. Now if you turn the
slip into a skid, well, I think you would be in trouble than, and I wouldn't
want to try one to find out what would happen either.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50411#50411
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
I see Gary Algates 582 Kitfox on Barnstormers for 29k -- still for
sale
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
I'm getting blasted by several for selling too cheap. Maybe I should
up the price???? I have a very bad habit when it comes to selling
things. When I make up my mind to sell, I want it gone the same day if
possible.
Don Smythe
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or
less of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe
To: Kitfox List
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through
mine in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K
(more than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off
list and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
Michel,
PLEASE tell me you know the answer!!!! I want you around to keep up your
excellent contributions to this list!!!
A stall in a slip near the ground is basically one of the garden variety ways
pilots use to succesfully remove themselves from the gene pool. Nobody gets a
Darwin Award for it because it is not a particularily novel act.
A stall in a slip at altitude will usually not accomplish one's removal from
the gene pool because either the airplane will get itself organized when the
suprized pilot takes his/her hands and feet off the controls to properly emit
a primal scream; or the pilot does something like cutting the power,
straightening out the alierons, stepping on the sky and doing something about
all that darn dirt he/she is looking at through the windscreen as some sort
of survival instinct (or training) kicks in.
A slip is also a very useful and traditional way of loosing altitude quickly
or keeping an approach organized in a crosswind - if you fly, you should be
good at it and use it a lot - the trick is TO KEEP THE STALL OUT OF THE
EQUATION when you have a slip going, UNLESS you are so high up you need
oxygen, AND have been trained in spins.
For anyone who has not had spin training, it is a really good thing to do. The
first time people find it a bit confusing because of the relatively rapid
attitude changes and the changing g-forces. Spin training is safe IF a person
gets a competent instructor and uses an airplane approved for spins. What
will spin training do for a person? After training, It will be absolutely
clear why a person does not spin an airplane near the ground, and one will
know exactly how to keep it from happening - low level stall-spin accidents
are normally things that people stumble into because they haven't experienced
safe practice in stall/spins under proper training.
Sincerely (and I mean sincerely),
Dave S
St Paul, MN
On Friday 28 July 2006 4:19 pm, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> A question, friends:
>
>
> My understanding is that a stall in a side slip is not too dangerous
> because the wing up will stall first and if you are quick enough to
> center the controls before it falls down, nothing will happen.
>
> ... but then, I am not so sure anymore. Has any of you tried to stall
> in a side slip? Is it dangerous?
>
> Cheers,
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
Michel said.
>>"I come on final a bit high, switch off the engine and adjust my vertical
speed by side
slipping. I do it all the way to the threshold, even with full rudder
on the side, sometimes."
>>"Talking about it with my son, he asks if it is not dangerous to side
slip so near the ground and if there is some danger to stall in a
uncoordinated attitude like a side slip".
Hi Michel.
It looks like you are growing big cahooners (I think I spelled that correct)
Switching a perfectly good running engine off.
But it looks like you are having fun and especially having practice.
Your son inquired if it could be dangerous to side slip so close to the
ground when one would consider a stall.
That would suck if it happened a couple of 50 feet above grass.
What would happen if you tried this, lets say at a couple or maybe 4 thousand
feet above ground?
The risk would be minimal to experiment.
Let us know what the results are? (NO! I am only kidding)
When I need to slip (which is quite often with a little head wind) (these
Kitfoxes do not like to come down when there is a breeze) I am ground tracking
in
a straight line to the runway and I am not pulling back too much on the
stick. As explained, I want to come down but not too quickly. But I must admit,
I
have never tried to point the nose upwards and risk dropping out of the sky.
Any stunt pilots in the group who can provide the answer?
Eric. Atlanta, Classic IV
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
I only have a scanned file of the Kitfox Pilots Operating Handbook available
and couldn't find anything on spins. A spin is achieved by entering a full
stall with full rudder in either direction and holding this condition to keep
speed in limit. A slip uses the same technique but will not result in a spin
(normally) if you maintain approach speeds (1.3 times stall)(Kitfox Series V
POH pp.39). Page 25 warns that with 1/2 or more flaps Series I, II, III lose
up to 50% of their roll control (flaperon). Series IV, V lose up to 30%.
Therefore experiment with these flap, rudder, low speed combinations at
altitude (normally this is 1,500AGL). Be aware also that some aircraft like the
C-172 recommend no more than Half flaps for cross winds/slips due to the
possibility of spins.
As I recall we were able to get no stick load trim with the KF V and the
flap/load alleviator device installed so we didn't have stick force forward.
Before the load alleviator It seems like we had considerable forward stick
pressure. If you have considerable forward stick pressure you will definitely
spin
should you have an elevator control failure or let release the stick. I know
of two Kitfox elevator control failures where the old style elevator idler
bell-crank pin broke. In this event you must immediately get flaps to a no
pitch configuration and control R/C with throttle.
To summarize you can't spin without getting your approach speed too low,
unless you yank the stick back and add full rudder at or above stall speed in
which case you get a snap roll. This is a prohibited maneuver in a Kitfox.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Good info there Dave.
I have had spin training and I am not sure why it is not part of every
flight test anymore.
In Canada you only have to demonstrate spins for commerical and instructor
rating.
Private pilot license you used to have to as well. Why not now ? I have no
idea.
Personally I think all pilots should be tested on their flight reviews and
on flight tests the following,
Stalls,(stall on take off and approach) Spins ( fully developed) , Spirals,
unusual attitudes and alot of slow fight.
And of course recovery from all the above.
And how about turning final at approach speed and going inverted ? There
are deaths from the above every year that could be prevented.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:02 PM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>
> Michel,
>
> PLEASE tell me you know the answer!!!! I want you around to keep up your
> excellent contributions to this list!!!
>
> A stall in a slip near the ground is basically one of the garden variety
> ways
> pilots use to succesfully remove themselves from the gene pool. Nobody
> gets a
> Darwin Award for it because it is not a particularily novel act.
>
> A stall in a slip at altitude will usually not accomplish one's removal
> from
> the gene pool because either the airplane will get itself organized when
> the
> suprized pilot takes his/her hands and feet off the controls to properly
> emit
> a primal scream; or the pilot does something like cutting the power,
> straightening out the alierons, stepping on the sky and doing something
> about
> all that darn dirt he/she is looking at through the windscreen as some
> sort
> of survival instinct (or training) kicks in.
>
> A slip is also a very useful and traditional way of loosing altitude
> quickly
> or keeping an approach organized in a crosswind - if you fly, you should
> be
> good at it and use it a lot - the trick is TO KEEP THE STALL OUT OF THE
> EQUATION when you have a slip going, UNLESS you are so high up you need
> oxygen, AND have been trained in spins.
>
> For anyone who has not had spin training, it is a really good thing to do.
> The
> first time people find it a bit confusing because of the relatively rapid
> attitude changes and the changing g-forces. Spin training is safe IF a
> person
> gets a competent instructor and uses an airplane approved for spins. What
> will spin training do for a person? After training, It will be absolutely
> clear why a person does not spin an airplane near the ground, and one will
> know exactly how to keep it from happening - low level stall-spin
> accidents
> are normally things that people stumble into because they haven't
> experienced
> safe practice in stall/spins under proper training.
>
> Sincerely (and I mean sincerely),
>
> Dave S
> St Paul, MN
>
> On Friday 28 July 2006 4:19 pm, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>>
>> A question, friends:
>>
>
>>
>> My understanding is that a stall in a side slip is not too dangerous
>> because the wing up will stall first and if you are quick enough to
>> center the controls before it falls down, nothing will happen.
>>
>> ... but then, I am not so sure anymore. Has any of you tried to stall
>> in a side slip? Is it dangerous?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
>
> A stall in a slip near the ground is basically one of the garden variety
> ways
> pilots use to succesfully remove themselves from the gene pool. Nobody
> gets a
> Darwin Award for it because it is not a particularily novel act.
I'm going to add that to my list of great aviation qoutes. It'll site right
next to "Caution: Cape does not enable user to fly"
On 7/28/06, Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
>
> Michel,
>
> PLEASE tell me you know the answer!!!! I want you around to keep up your
> excellent contributions to this list!!!
>
> A stall in a slip near the ground is basically one of the garden variety
> ways
> pilots use to succesfully remove themselves from the gene pool. Nobody
> gets a
> Darwin Award for it because it is not a particularily novel act.
>
> A stall in a slip at altitude will usually not accomplish one's removal
> from
> the gene pool because either the airplane will get itself organized when
> the
> suprized pilot takes his/her hands and feet off the controls to properly
> emit
> a primal scream; or the pilot does something like cutting the power,
> straightening out the alierons, stepping on the sky and doing something
> about
> all that darn dirt he/she is looking at through the windscreen as some
> sort
> of survival instinct (or training) kicks in.
>
> A slip is also a very useful and traditional way of loosing altitude
> quickly
> or keeping an approach organized in a crosswind - if you fly, you should
> be
> good at it and use it a lot - the trick is TO KEEP THE STALL OUT OF THE
> EQUATION when you have a slip going, UNLESS you are so high up you need
> oxygen, AND have been trained in spins.
>
> For anyone who has not had spin training, it is a really good thing to do.
> The
> first time people find it a bit confusing because of the relatively rapid
> attitude changes and the changing g-forces. Spin training is safe IF a
> person
> gets a competent instructor and uses an airplane approved for spins. What
> will spin training do for a person? After training, It will be absolutely
> clear why a person does not spin an airplane near the ground, and one will
> know exactly how to keep it from happening - low level stall-spin
> accidents
> are normally things that people stumble into because they haven't
> experienced
> safe practice in stall/spins under proper training.
>
> Sincerely (and I mean sincerely),
>
> Dave S
> St Paul, MN
>
> On Friday 28 July 2006 4:19 pm, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
> >
> > A question, friends:
> >
>
> >
> > My understanding is that a stall in a side slip is not too dangerous
> > because the wing up will stall first and if you are quick enough to
> > center the controls before it falls down, nothing will happen.
> >
> > ... but then, I am not so sure anymore. Has any of you tried to stall
> > in a side slip? Is it dangerous?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
>
>
--
John Marzulli
http://701Builder.blogspot.com/
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
Ok Dave, I give, why worry about going inverted after turning base to final? The
only reason I can see this is if one of your flaps didn't go down, I don't
use them on landing, so I guess that is out. Hitting turbulance from another
aircraft, generally a commercial jet, I know of that also, that is why I fly at
a higher glide path and settle after the nose of the aircraft touches down of
the said aircraft, do that all the time also. In fact I've been taught to recognize
turbulance from landing aircraft by dropping down into turbulance very
carefully and feeling it, good to know that one as well.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50428#50428
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
Michael,
I have to say there is much better ways to have fun in a fox. Sorry, turning off
the engine isn't one of them. Usually when I turn the engine off I'm about
to put the plane in the hanger, that's no fun either. IF your so concerned about
the engine quiting than you must be close to TBO on your engine and your
getting concerned.
--------
kitfoxmike
kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
rv7 wingkit
reserved 287RV
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50429#50429
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Classic IV for sale |
I have been on this list for awhile and have heard many things. I have
seen a good number of Foxes up close. And lets face it, not all builders
are alike or build or even attempt to build to near factory standards.
And for than reason, maybe some Foxes aren't worth much. Have you ever
seen a KitFox that you would not take a ride in? I have!
Well, no one is touching my Model IV-912UL for less than $60K. In fact,
if I was offered $75K today, I would not take it. I know how it was
built and how it flies and how I feel when I fly it. If I sold it, I
would have to build another to feel the same way. When I am not going to
fly it any more, I will give it away before accepting less than $60K!
And mine is nothing special next to some of the really nice Foxes I've
seen.
Roger
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave<mailto:dave@cfisher.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or
less of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Smythe<mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
To: Kitfox List<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through
mine in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K
(more than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off
list and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net<mailto:dosmythe@cox.net>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Classic IV for sale |
Roger,
As much as I admire craftsmanship, quality, well thought out design and
correctly selected components and beauty, you are safe. No one is going
to match or top your offer expectations. But let me be the first to say
I would appreciate being placed first on the give it away list since I
have nothing to fly. The market place is the judgment seat for selling
prices, only we the builders can place our own intrinsic worth and
esoteric value on our creations. I agree. It is worth at least $60K.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger
Standley
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:03 PM
I have been on this list for awhile and have heard many things. I have
seen a good number of Foxes up close. And lets face it, not all builders
are alike or build or even attempt to build to near factory standards.
And for than reason, maybe some Foxes aren't worth much. Have you ever
seen a KitFox that you would not take a ride in? I have!
Well, no one is touching my Model IV-912UL for less than $60K. In fact,
if I was offered $75K today, I would not take it. I know how it was
built and how it flies and how I feel when I fly it. If I sold it, I
would have to build another to feel the same way. When I am not going to
fly it any more, I will give it away before accepting less than $60K!
And mine is nothing special next to some of the really nice Foxes I've
seen.
Roger
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:02 PM
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less
of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate
pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine
in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more
than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off list
and I'll give all the specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Wake turbulence is one way but you usually have enough separation on final
.( I did have this one during IFR training under the hood) One scenario is
if one was on base turning final and you are tight and wide. So you add
more rudder and get more turn and more bank and use opposite aileron to
lessen the bank and you are low and give aft stick then see what happens
before you splat into ground.
I land nearly fully stalled in Kitfox every time on grass, pavement snow,ice
or water. I will take a high glideslope if landing behind a heavy and land
beyond their touchdown. In Kitfox I rarely get behind heavies though. I
most likely fly through my own wake turbulence more than anyone elses when
horsing around ;-)
And dead stick landings , certainly another good thing to learn. If you
have not done any well you have not learnt yet. It can happen at anytime.
i.e. bird strike,engine out , prop failure etc. Failure to leave your
self an out will not leave you an "out" .
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 7:47 PM
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>
> Ok Dave, I give, why worry about going inverted after turning base to
> final? The only reason I can see this is if one of your flaps didn't go
> down, I don't use them on landing, so I guess that is out. Hitting
> turbulance from another aircraft, generally a commercial jet, I know of
> that also, that is why I fly at a higher glide path and settle after the
> nose of the aircraft touches down of the said aircraft, do that all the
> time also. In fact I've been taught to recognize turbulance from landing
> aircraft by dropping down into turbulance very carefully and feeling it,
> good to know that one as well.
>
> --------
> kitfoxmike
> kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
> http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
> rv7 wingkit
> reserved 287RV
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50428#50428
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Classic IV for sale |
this is great,I love it.....awsome guys....wow what sales pitch...lol
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/28/2006 9:50:11 PM
Roger,
As much as I admire craftsmanship, quality, well thought out design and correctly
selected components and beauty, you are safe. No one is going to match or
top your offer expectations. But let me be the first to say I would appreciate
being placed first on the give it away list since I have nothing to fly. The
market place is the judgment seat for selling prices, only we the builders can
place our own intrinsic worth and esoteric value on our creations. I agree.
It is worth at least $60K.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:03 PM
I have been on this list for awhile and have heard many things. I have seen a good
number of Foxes up close. And lets face it, not all builders are alike or
build or even attempt to build to near factory standards. And for than reason,
maybe some Foxes aren't worth much. Have you ever seen a KitFox that you would
not take a ride in? I have!
Well, no one is touching my Model IV-912UL for less than $60K. In fact, if I was
offered $75K today, I would not take it. I know how it was built and how it
flies and how I feel when I fly it. If I sold it, I would have to build another
to feel the same way. When I am not going to fly it any more, I will give it
away before accepting less than $60K! And mine is nothing special next to some
of the really nice Foxes I've seen.
Roger
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:02 PM
It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less of the
cost to build a new one and you can fly it now.
Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate pricing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM
While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine in too.
I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more than $30K invested).
If anyone is interested, send me a note off list and I'll give all the
specifics.
Priced to sell (I hope)
Don Smythe
dosmythe@cox.net
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Hey, I like this thread. I want to complicate it a bit by asking a
question. Michel, do you mean a side slip? I think you mean a forward
slip.
I do a slip nearly every landing at home. Once I clear the tops of the
trees, I do a forward slip to help get down and then straighten out to land.
Randy
Message 33
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|
Thankyou to all for your advice,I am now wondering can I put a inflight adjust
prop on a VW?
I now that vw calls for a wood prop for the harmonic balance,but can a prop be
used in this application using an inflight adjustment/or constant speed?.......
Thanks ....Mark
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/25/2006 8:23:44 AM
Mark,
Very nice looking Kitfox.
I assume by the short prop your are running direct drive ?
I think the VW like to run higher rpm that 2500 in cruise so your cruise would
be higher in that case.
You have a heavy IV at 753 so with the short prop and heavy weight 600 fpm not
that bad really in your climate. Wait till cooler days and see how it is.
I read this ad on the Mosler here http://www.greatplainsas.com/chooseaircrft.html -- The claims are far from what you but they claiming a 490 empty weight as well which I find hard to believe.
Keep us up to date on how your tweaking improves things. I always like the AeroVee
but I don't like to be limited to a short prop as you will lose your short
field performance.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 6:40 AM
Hi All,I had my first flight in my kitfox 4,all seemed to go well considering all
my new updates and mods that we did,but I am curious to know what some of you
are getting on you climb out and rpm cruise settings?
I am using a VW mosler 80hp powerplant and I am getting around 600 ft permin climb,this
is solo carrying 16 gal of fuel with an empty weight of 753 lbs,I wish
I had better climb rate,but maybe I am spoiled from rotax engines in other
aircraft and of course it is hot and hummid here in florida.
I am only getting 75 mph cruise at 2500 rpm even though my engine redlines at
3600 rpm,but on my static run up I am at 3000 rpm full throttle,
Anyone out there running a VW?,Do you run at cruise at a higher rpm than 2500 ?,can
I run at 2900-3200 at cruise.I know other engines guys run a feww hundred
rpm lower than their max redline,but does this also apply to a VW ?
Thanks for any ideas in this area.......................
ps I have attached a picture of my completed bird,another member of the fox family.....
Sincerely Mark Thomson N61AC
Mark Thompson
kr2@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Stall in a side slip |
John Marzulli, we do not teach actual power out landings this low to the
ground by shutting off the engine . The normal way we practice power out
landings is to fly at the POH recommended flap and power setting. this simulates
safely simulates an engine out landing; that way you can correct mistakes.
Lacking a recommended power and flap setting in your Kitfox POH or in a SPAM CAN
we go to a safe altitude shut the engine down, give it time to stabilize dead
power rpm while maintaining the recommended approach speed, and determine the
rate of sink. Then restart the engine and at the same altitude set min power
hold rate of sink at the power off rate of sink and set flaps and add power
as required to maintain that rate of sink. Some power may be required when
flap settings are in increments that cannot exactly match the power off rate
of sink.
I would like to know what engine you are using and if the engine stops
rotating when you turn it off. Do you do it with the key or mixture? What airspeed
do you hold? Normally the engine keeps rotating until you slow up to at or
near stalling speed; therefore if you lose the engine and maintain best glide
speed the engine continues to windmill which is a higher drag condition than
with stopped prop. One way to minimize wind-milling drag to extend your glide
is to open the throttle fully. To fully stop engine rotation you slow up
until it stops but this is not recommended in an emergency because a stall
greatly reduces glide distance. Some engines stop rotating on their own at best
glide speed, some don't, depending on engine condition, gear box or not, etc.
The main thing in practicing power off landings is be safe therefore don't
shut it down. Using the above procedure you can make every landing a practice
power off landing safely. Good luck and enjoy!!!!
Message 35
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| Subject: | Stall in a side slip |
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