---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/04/06: 59 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:32 AM - Re: Slips and all the rest. (Michael Gibbs) 2. 03:39 AM - Re: (humour) was: Flaps. for Eric (Ceashman@aol.com) 3. 04:23 AM - Michigan Kitfoxers (Fox5flyer) 4. 04:59 AM - Passenger safety. was: Flaps. (Michel Verheughe) 5. 05:27 AM - SV: Survival at sea. (Michel Verheughe) 6. 05:52 AM - Re: Michigan Kitfoxers (Sid Hausding) 7. 06:38 AM - Passenger safety - Michel (Jose M. Toro) 8. 08:07 AM - Re: Passenger safety. was: Flaps. (wingnut) 9. 08:24 AM - Re: Slips and all the rest. (kitfoxmike) 10. 08:32 AM - Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 (Andrew Matthaey) 11. 09:42 AM - Re: Michigan Kitfoxers (Richard Rabbers) 12. 10:02 AM - Re: Passenger safety - Michel (Michel Verheughe) 13. 10:14 AM - Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Jimmie Blackwell) 14. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: Slips and all the rest. (Michel Verheughe) 15. 10:31 AM - Re: Slips and all the rest. (kitfoxmike) 16. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Slips and all the rest. (Clint Bazzill) 17. 10:54 AM - Re: Slips and all the rest. (kitfoxmike) 18. 10:54 AM - more on Atlanta crash (Marco Menezes) 19. 10:55 AM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (flier) 20. 11:19 AM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (kitfoxmike) 21. 11:26 AM - Re: Slips and all the rest. (kitfoxmike) 22. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (kurt schrader) 23. 11:39 AM - Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 (kurt schrader) 24. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (6440 Auto Parts) 25. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Slips and all the rest. (Clint Bazzill) 26. 11:53 AM - Re: Passenger safety - Michel (John Marzulli) 27. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (jdisher@intergate.com) 28. 12:04 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Jimmie Blackwell) 29. 12:08 PM - Re: Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Jimmie Blackwell) 30. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Clint Bazzill) 31. 12:14 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (kitfoxmike) 32. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Marco Menezes) 33. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Marco Menezes) 34. 12:43 PM - Re: Passenger safety - Michel (Jose M. Toro) 35. 12:44 PM - Re: (humour) was: Flaps. for Michel. (kurt schrader) 36. 01:55 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Barry West) 37. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (John Disher) 38. 03:50 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Jimmie Blackwell) 39. 03:52 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Lowell Fitt) 40. 04:04 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Rexster) 41. 05:20 PM - Re: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 (Rex Shaw) 42. 05:21 PM - Re: Kitfox Crash-Latest report (David Estapa) 43. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (eccles) 44. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Rexster) 45. 06:05 PM - Latest report (Sid Hausding) 46. 06:11 PM - Michigan Kitfoxers (Sid Hausding) 47. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (eccles) 48. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (eccles) 49. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (flier) 50. 06:36 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (flier) 51. 07:04 PM - Kitfox Crash (Clint Bazzill) 52. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash-Latest report (wingsdown) 53. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Lowell Fitt) 54. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Don Pearsall) 55. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Crash (Rexster) 56. 09:15 PM - Re: Michigan Kitfoxers (Richard Rabbers) 57. 10:38 PM - Motorcycle grip Throttle (Kenneth and Alice Jones) 58. 11:52 PM - (off-topic) temperature. WAS Passenger safety - Michel (Michel Verheughe) 59. 11:57 PM - (off-topic) Hurricanes WAS Passenger safety - Michel (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:07 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Clint sez: >I will buy your whole family dinner if you can demonstrate a spin >from a slip in a Kitfox. I'd collect on that if I hadn't wrecked my plane, Clint. I did it many a time. You slip an airplane by "cross controlling," i.e., rudder opposite of the aileron input. You spin an airplane by stalling it while "uncoordinated," i.e., rudder inappropriate (or even, opposite) for the aileron input. You do the math. Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:43 AM PST US From: Ceashman@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (humour) was: Flaps. for Eric posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Eric: You are certainly conscious about safety... Well Jose' You can never be too relaxed when it comes to safety!!! ~I make sure the passenger door is good and tight before the wheels start rolling. ~I make sure the safety belt harness is not twisted , correctly aligned and the clasp is secured. All this is done after I make sure the passenger door is good and tight (Ha!Ha!) Now I am not kidding. On one flight, the passenger strapped in and closed and secured the door. We rolled down the runway and headed for altitude and no where in particular. Not long after there was this laud intermittent banging sound on the airframe. It frightened the life out of me, did I break a right side bungee??? and how will I land with a lame right leg!!! Being the calm experienced pilot (in front of my passenger) I explained that I will go through a thorough analytical process of the situation (buying time with sweat running down my spine). Groping around the cabin, I discovered that when my passenger secured the safety belt, the long excessive length of lap belt was hanging out the door before the door was closed. And this was batting the side of the plane below the door at the break neck speed we were doing. It frightened the weight and balance out of me. Cheers. Eric. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:02 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Kitfoxers I've gone through my messages and dug out those who said they wanted to be part of the Michigan Kitfoxers. I don't know if I got them all or not, and I suspect that I didn't so if any of you out there want to be part of this group, please add your name to it and send it back to me. I have no idea where this will go, but for now I'll at the very least keep and maintain the list so that when we decide to do something it'll be easy to make contact. I'll also provide a copy of the list to all of those who are on it. To all those on the list, please ensure the name is spelled correctly, add your email address, location, aircraft type, and phone number (optional), whether still building, flying, or lurking, and any other pertinent info. Don't worry, I won't be using this list for telemarketing, nor providing it to any sort of marketing entity. Your information is safe with me. Like I said, I don't know what's next, but this is a start. Deke Mikado MI, S5 Marco Menezes Lynn Matteson Sid Hausding Fred Shiple Rexter Malcolm Deke Morisse Richard Rabbers John Pery (Kansas) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:32 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Passenger safety. was: Flaps. > From: Ceashman@aol.com > I discovered that when my passenger secured the > safety belt, the long excessive length of lap belt was hanging out the door > before the door was closed. Been there, done that, Eric. Only that it was my own belt hanging out. But, for my passengers, I have made a "preflight" instructions that they can read while I do my own preflight. The plastified card is always in my right door side pocket. It says, in Norwegian, approximatively the following: - As a passenger in a hombuilt aircraft, you are not covered by your normal insurance but by the aircraft compulsory third-party insurance. - The flight is for your pleasure. If, at any time, it feels unpleasant, please notify the pilot and he will return as soon as possible to the airfield. - When you hear ATC speaking, stop talking to the pilot, it may be a message addressed to us. - If you lean heavily on the door, it may open. Simply pull it closed again, it doesn't affect the flight. - Under take-off and landing, make sure you give the pilot enough room for the stick and pedals since he may need full deployment. My passengers take this information very positively. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:49 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: SV: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. > From: John King [kingjohne@adelphia.net] > Use lots of ping pong balls. They add very little weight and can be stuffed in a lot of small places. You know, John, I am old and my memory is failing me, but I am sure I read, many, many years ago, about ping pong balls in aircraft wings. Was it in British aircraft during WWII? When they landed on the makeshift runway, across the flat land leading to the rock of Gibraltar? Or am I mixing everything? But I am sure I read about ping pong balls earlier. One thing is for sure, it doesn't have to be resistant to high pressure. When I e.g. remove the sensor of the log (speedometer) of my sailboat, at the bottom of the keel, there is hardly any pressure and I can hold it with my hand. You have to go down to 10 meters to double the surface pressure (2 atmospheres). Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:57 AM PST US From: Sid Hausding Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Michigan Kitfoxers Sounds like a cool idea and one that might benefit all of us for info, building assistance and parts........make it a lot faster for area information, flying conditions and airport availability, along with the ideas, materials and swapping of building pieces and tips..........not to subtract from or stray from the original Kitfox forum or lists, just to augment, and provide local connections to improve the already good system(s) and lists. Sid ---------------- Fox5flyer wrote: I've gone through my messages and dug out those who said they wanted to be part of the Michigan Kitfoxers. I don't know if I got them all or not, and I suspect that I didn't so if any of you out there want to be part of this group, please add your name to it and send it back to me. I have no idea where this will go, but for now I'll at the very least keep and maintain the list so that when we decide to do something it'll be easy to make contact. I'll also provide a copy of the list to all of those who are on it. To all those on the list, please ensure the name is spelled correctly, add your email address, location, aircraft type, and phone number (optional), whether still building, flying, or lurking, and any other pertinent info. Don't worry, I won't be using this list for telemarketing, nor providing it to any sort of marketing entity. Your information is safe with me. Like I said, I don't know what's next, but this is a start. Deke Mikado MI, S5 Marco Menezes Lynn Matteson Sid Hausding 2140 So. Third Ave. Alpena, Michigan 49707 989-356-0048 avidsid@yahoo.com Avid Speedwing, 582, TG N204S lurker 'wannabee' Fred Shiple Rexter Malcolm Deke Morisse Richard Rabbers John Pery (Kansas) "Why can't we all just get along?" --------------------------------- Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:46 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Kitfox-List: Passenger safety - Michel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Michel: This "passengers preflight checklist" is excellent. I would add an entry for the use of "floating device" when flying over water if applicable. I used to be member of a Navy Flying Club that had a couple of Cessna T-41. That was part of the passenger's preflight briefing. Is it that checklist copyrighted??? I would like to use it, but don't want to trigger an "international legal action"! Saludos my friend, Jose --- Michel Verheughe wrote: > But, for my passengers, I have made a "preflight" > instructions that they can read while I do my own > preflight. The plastified card is always in my right > door side pocket. > > It says, in Norwegian, approximatively the > following: > - As a passenger in a hombuilt aircraft, you are not > covered by your normal insurance but by the aircraft > compulsory third-party insurance. > - The flight is for your pleasure. If, at any time, > it feels unpleasant, please notify the pilot and he > will return as soon as possible to the airfield. > - When you hear ATC speaking, stop talking to the > pilot, it may be a message addressed to us. > - If you lean heavily on the door, it may open. > Simply pull it closed again, it doesn't affect the > flight. > - Under take-off and landing, make sure you give the > pilot enough room for the stick and pedals since he > may need full deployment. > > My passengers take this information very positively. > > Cheers, > Michel > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:18 AM PST US From: "wingnut" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Passenger safety. was: Flaps. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" That's a really good idea. I'm going to do that too. > But, for my passengers, I have made a "preflight" instructions that they can read while I do my own preflight. The plastified card is always in my right door side pocket. > > It says, in Norwegian, approximatively the following: > - As a passenger in a hombuilt aircraft, you are not covered by your normal insurance but by the aircraft compulsory third-party insurance. > - The flight is for your pleasure. If, at any time, it feels unpleasant, please notify the pilot and he will return as soon as possible to the airfield. > - When you hear ATC speaking, stop talking to the pilot, it may be a message addressed to us. > - If you lean heavily on the door, it may open. Simply pull it closed again, it doesn't affect the flight. > - Under take-off and landing, make sure you give the pilot enough room for the stick and pedals since he may need full deployment. > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52280#52280 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:00 AM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" Oh come on guys, you can't tail spin in a slip. Why? because you don't have critical angle of attack, that is if you are doing a proper slip, meaning you have forward stick. I want to add a tid bit here. Last night at altitude I went and did one of those base to final turns that somebody, not saying who, was mentioning with the tightening the turn with rudder, wow, that scared the crap out of my wife, I didn't tell her I was going to do it, I just did a 30degree left bank and then put in a bunch of left rudder to make a steeper turn then I leveled the wing(to keep 30degree angle) or made a right input in the aileron, I tell ya, it woke me up, felt awful weard. If you guys are doing this on approach, STOP, because this WILL put you right into a spin before you can say crap. DO NOT use the rudder to make turns, make the angle steeper with a corridanated turn (ie. use a little rudder) and raise your air speed or make a go around. If you are not sure how to handle a short approach, get some instruction, by all means do not experiment. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52288#52288 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:31 AM PST US From: "Andrew Matthaey" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" I love it ;-) Thanks John! Andrew do not archive >From: John King >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:46:48 -0400 > >Andrew, > >An ultralight that was flying the Caribbean filled his wings with ping pong >balls. All the floatation was in the wings. They were later removed. > >-- >John King Warrenton, VA > > >Andrew Matthaey wrote: > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Andrew Matthaey" >> >> >>John, are you really serious - Ping Pong balls?? It is a brilliant idea >>LoL... >> >>Andrew >> >> >>>From: John King >>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 >>>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:41:32 -0400 >>> >>>Michel, >>> >>>Use lots of ping pong balls. They add very little weight and can be >>>stuffed in a lot of small places. >>> >>>-- >>>John King Warrenton, VA >>> >>> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:05 AM PST US From: "Richard Rabbers" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Michigan Kitfoxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" > Michigan Kitfoxers Seems like a good 'location / type' contact list could benefit all on (our) Matronics list. The existing member list includes many voids and is not very well suited for sorting. Perhaps someday the structure could be improved. (not to minimize the great work that they do) It seems to me that those involved on this list might all welcome the chance to make contact with others no matter where they may find themselves. (when traveling, on lay-overs...etc) It might be tuff to avoid keeping a list that included contact info/email addresses from being captured by 'the outside' creating junk mail or other? Meantime I'm glad to be part of this new effort and assume good will come. Richard Rabbers 627 W Main Street Benton Harbor, MI 49022 (269) 925-1901 rira1950@yahoo.com Kitfox Model 1 - s/n 168 (purchased from 2nd owner - slowly being restored) Rotax 618, Powerfin prop Full Lotus floats - I'm enjoying this list very much. It's great to be able to become familar with Kitfox prior to flight... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52307#52307 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:43 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Passenger safety - Michel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 4, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote: > Is it that checklist copyrighted??? Jose, you will have to discuss that with my lawyer at: crook@corrupt.com ... Kidding! I am only please if I can help. Use it as you wish. Regarding the floating device, I have plenty of them on my sailboat and I always take them, for me and an eventual passenger, when I fly over the fjord to e.g. Sweden. I don't think it is necessary to have it on the check list because if the passenger refuses to take it, I refuse to open the right hand door! :-) Incidentally, for the last three weeks, I have been swimming in the sea nearly every day, we enjoy an extraordinary nice summer in south Norway. The water temperature is 22 degrees C. Not a record for Puerto Rico, I know, but ... remember that we are at latitude 60 north! I am just back from the beach and on my way to the airfield for a bit of late Kitfox flying, when the sun is low and the temperature cool. So, here I am, singing: Coge tu sombrero y pontelo, vamos a la playa, calienta el sol! :-) Fuerte abrazo, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:18 AM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. These are some of the things I have done and noted: - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, part # 267 788. - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well balanced. - After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. - My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, no burrs. - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago. At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. Jimmie ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:38 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 4, 2006, at 5:23 PM, kitfoxmike wrote: > Oh come on guys, you can't tail spin in a slip. Guys! I think we all agree! Uncoordinated attitude is always a risk. But - and as my initial question was - I understand that a slip is not as dangerous than a skid. It doesn't mean that a slip cannot be dangerous, it means that it is less so and we have to be careful, anyway, anytime and under any circumstance. So, let us smoke the peace calumet and have a good time, flying safe. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:07 AM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" Interesting enough, this same type of thread is on the vansairforce site. This was posted and is very interesting to watch. http://www.apstraining.com/clips/skidded_turn_high.wmv -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52321#52321 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:04 AM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:11 AM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" If I do remember right there was one post that one reported about worrying about going inverted on base to final, being brought out by using rudder to sharpen the turn, this video demonstrates what happens when you do that. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52330#52330 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:42 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Kitfox-List: more on Atlanta crash classic mistake, tragic results. http://www.ajc.com/wireless/content/metro/fayette/stories/0803planecrash.html Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:31 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Are those the stiff rubber (aftermarket I believe) flanges Jimmie? If so, I'm surprised you're having any trouble as I've been running mine now for years. If not, you need to switch over. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- list@matronics.com> >Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. > > One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. > > These are some of the things I have done and noted: > > - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, part # 267 788. > > - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well > balanced. > > - After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has > two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and > several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. > > - My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange > had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of > the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, no burrs. > > - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago. > > At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. > > Jimmie ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:17 AM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" actually he said they were the rotax newer ones, they are bad in my opinion, I've tried them and didn't like them. I now use the aftermarket ones, been on there over 300 hrs with no problems. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52339#52339 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:36 AM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" first off, I'm not upset, just concerned and I don't want to read anymore about accidents. Now, if a person is in a slip and gets messed up in there thinking, they can go into a skid. Now, I've read some post were people are slipping and going in a side slip, now in my opinion a side slip is ok, but not to be mistaken for doing a base to final, or any other turn, it's just for alignment when off slightly on your final with the runway. The skid can accure if doing a slip on base to final, expecially if you are turning one direction over the other depends which side you are slipping. My advice, take out the slip when making any kind of turn and make sure you have proper down elevator. Last note: this thread says slips and all the rest. Skids are one of the rest. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52346#52346 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:23 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rick Cooler > > > > >here is the link > > > >http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9621436/detail.html?subid=22105243&qs=1;bp=t > > Wow. A departure stall/spin in a Kitfox. I thought > only Lancair's did > that. >:-} > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly > to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:38 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Add air filled zip-lock bags as floatation devices. Some put them in their flightsuit pockets in the Marines (ah, during survival training to ofset the heavy flight boots. Shoosh) Kurt S. --- Malcolmbru@aol.com wrote: > when a Flight star flew from south America across > the Ocean to sun fun the > pilot put over 300 inflated condoms in the wings > DO NOT ARCHIVE __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:17 AM PST US From: "6440 Auto Parts" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "6440 Auto Parts" If that is the only fatalities involved then it would be prudent to install an angle of attack and that problem should go away. Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 1:29 PM > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident > summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about > 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths > in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep > takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very > survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on > takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: >> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rick Cooler >> >> > >> >here is the link >> > >> >>http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9621436/detail.html?subid=22105243&qs=1;bp=t >> >> Wow. A departure stall/spin in a Kitfox. I thought >> only Lancair's did >> that. >:-} >> >> >> Guy Buchanan >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly >> to Bob Ducar. >> >> Do not archive > > __________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:15 AM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slips and all the rest. --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:29 AM PST US From: "John Marzulli" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Passenger safety - Michel A water temp of 22C? Wow, I think I need to move to Norway to get warm! It's cold out here in Seattle. Last week we had four days of summer and an OAT of about 95F, but a water temp of about 55F. On 8/4/06, Michel Verheughe wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > On Aug 4, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote: > > Is it that checklist copyrighted??? > > Jose, you will have to discuss that with my lawyer at: crook@corrupt.com > ... > Kidding! I am only please if I can help. Use it as you wish. > > Regarding the floating device, I have plenty of them on my sailboat and > I always take them, for me and an eventual passenger, when I fly over > the fjord to e.g. Sweden. I don't think it is necessary to have it on > the check list because if the passenger refuses to take it, I refuse to > open the right hand door! :-) > > Incidentally, for the last three weeks, I have been swimming in the sea > nearly every day, we enjoy an extraordinary nice summer in south > Norway. The water temperature is 22 degrees C. Not a record for Puerto > Rico, I know, but ... remember that we are at latitude 60 north! I am > just back from the beach and on my way to the airfield for a bit of > late Kitfox flying, when the sun is low and the temperature cool. So, > here I am, singing: Coge tu sombrero y pontelo, vamos a la playa, > calienta el sol! :-) > > Fuerte abrazo, > Michel > > do not archive > > -- John Marzulli http://701Builder.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:09 PM PST US From: jdisher@intergate.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jdisher@intergate.com Are they sure it was a stall spin? I have a IV Speedster and its a hard plane to keep in a stalled condition. It just mushes down till it gets a little speed back, and if you insist on holding the stick back it will do it again, but no wild break and pitch like my Bonanza. The photos look like he flew it straight down cause its all in a pile. From the limited info of the pictures I also wondered if the lift strut on the left wing didn't separate and let it just stream down. I always figured that it the structure held together I could put it down anywhere. A large roof-top, a tree, somebodies back yard, a subdivision street. Somewhere. How bad can you get beat up at 35 mph if you're the least bit attentive. Don't worry about the fox at that point, she belongs to the insurance company. It's time to sya. Quoting kurt schrader : > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident > summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about > 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths > in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep > takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very > survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on > takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: >> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rick Cooler >> >> > >> >here is the link >> > >> >> http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9621436/detail.html?subid=22105243&qs=1;bp=t >> >> Wow. A departure stall/spin in a Kitfox. I thought >> only Lancair's did >> that. >:-} >> >> >> Guy Buchanan >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly >> to Bob Ducar. >> >> Do not archive > > __________________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:16 PM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul They are the stiffer ones and I think are impregnated with kevlar. I did just discover one possible cause. My carb has two retaining springs, one on each side. They do not have the spring on top of the carb that attaches to the balancing tube. Do you have this top spring? flier wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Are those the stiff rubber (aftermarket I believe) flanges Jimmie? If so, I'm surprised you're having any trouble as I've been running mine now for years. If not, you need to switch over. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- list@matronics.com> >Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. > > One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. > > These are some of the things I have done and noted: > > - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, part # 267 788. > > - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well > balanced. > > - After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has > two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and > several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. > > - My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange > had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of > the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, no burrs. > > - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago. > > At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. > > Jimmie ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:23 PM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul When you say, "aftermarket", do you mean a rubber flange that is different from the ones that Rotax sells and has the 8mm spacer or a flange that someone other than Rotax sells? If someone other than Rotax sells them they may be a lot cheaper. Thanks Jimmie kitfoxmike wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" actually he said they were the rotax newer ones, they are bad in my opinion, I've tried them and didn't like them. I now use the aftermarket ones, been on there over 300 hrs with no problems. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52339#52339 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:14 PM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:20 PM PST US From: "kitfoxmike" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" I think they are mekuni(spelling) and they are much cheaper. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52361#52361 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:18 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash Good advice for whatever airplane one might be driving, Kurt. do not archive kurt schrader wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rick Cooler > > > > >here is the link > > > >http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9621436/detail.html?subid=22105243&qs=1;bp=t > > Wow. A departure stall/spin in a Kitfox. I thought > only Lancair's did > that. >:-} > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly > to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive __________________________________________________ Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:47 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. jdisher@intergate.com wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jdisher@intergate.com Are they sure it was a stall spin? I have a IV Speedster and its a hard plane to keep in a stalled condition. It just mushes down till it gets a little speed back, and if you insist on holding the stick back it will do it again, but no wild break and pitch like my Bonanza. The photos look like he flew it straight down cause its all in a pile. From the limited info of the pictures I also wondered if the lift strut on the left wing didn't separate and let it just stream down. I always figured that it the structure held together I could put it down anywhere. A large roof-top, a tree, somebodies back yard, a subdivision street. Somewhere. How bad can you get beat up at 35 mph if you're the least bit attentive. Don't worry about the fox at that point, she belongs to the insurance company. It's time to sya. Quoting kurt schrader : > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident > summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about > 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths > in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep > takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very > survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on > takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: >> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rick Cooler >> >> > >> >here is the link >> > >> >> http://www.wsbtv.com/news/9621436/detail.html?subid=22105243&qs=1;bp=t >> >> Wow. A departure stall/spin in a Kitfox. I thought >> only Lancair's did >> that. >:-} >> >> >> Guy Buchanan >> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly >> to Bob Ducar. >> >> Do not archive > > __________________________________________________ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:50 PM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Passenger safety - Michel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" Michel: Can I go with you for that late Kitfox flying? Have not flown since February and am feeling by this time like an addict without his stuff. Right now, Puerto Rico is in the hurricane season, so most of the light planes are stored in a garage. Some time soon...I hope... Jose --- Michel Verheughe wrote: I am > just back from the beach and on my way to the > airfield for a bit of > late Kitfox flying, when the sun is low and the > temperature cool. So, > here I am, singing: Coge tu sombrero y pontelo, > vamos a la playa, > calienta el sol! :-) > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:07 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: (humour) was: Flaps. for Michel. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader I agree that the throttle is a good thing to hold on to. I intentionally mounted my prop control switch where I could use my index finger to operate it. And my thumb operates the landing light switch while still holding on to the throttle too. I had thought about putting a motorcycle grip throttle on the flap handle and operating it like a helo collective. Better spot landings. ;-) I also wrote my checklists to always be in a left to right and then down, cockpit sweep. I tried twice to takeoff using the sweep without the checklist. First time it suddenly cooled off in the cockpit as the right door slowly opened in flight. The checklist, feeling rejected, blew out the door. The second time I forgot to set my prop pitch on a stop and go. There I went down the runway being chased by a landing plane as I set power, pitch, power, pitch.... and finally took off at cruise power. Embarrassing, all those RPM changes! Too old to sweep well. Got to use the checklist. Kurt S. Do not archive __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:34 PM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Jimmy, I am surprised you are having this problem with the 912 UL. I have a 912 ULS and went through a lot of problem with the shaking at start up and shut down of the engine. It was really violent. I sent the gearbox to Lockwood for them to tighten the sprag clutch and this greatly reduced the shaking. The 912 ULS tended to shake more than the other 912's and of course it is exagerated because the carbs are further away from the center of the engine than in other applications. I also bought rubber flanges from a motorcyle shop. They ordered them from a catlog. Remember, BMW used Bing carburettors - don't know if they still do. They were less than half the cost from Lockwood. These things together solved the problem. About 200 hours now and no more carburettors coming loose or tearing of the rubber flanges. I guess this is what others are calling aftermarket but I think they were exactly the same as Rotax supplies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimmie Blackwell To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. These are some of the things I have done and noted: - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, part # 267 788. - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well balanced. - After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. - My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, no burrs. - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago. At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. Jimmie ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:37 PM PST US From: "John Disher" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash That's why we have always been told to go straight ahead and find a soft spot if you atren't up to a specific altitude. I have lost power on takeo ff twice, although not completely, that is if that 4 banger with two cylinde rs shut Dow can still put out anything, but I was at about 200 to 250 feet which gives you lots of time in a lightly loaded Fox. I was able to maint ain about 45mph and do a very slow easy turn back and still had about half of the runway left. On the second one I must have looked a little ruffled, because a spectator asked my if I carried toilet paper in the plane. -------Original Message------- Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. jdisher@intergate.com wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: jdisher@intergate.com Are they sure it was a stall spin? I have a IV Speedster and its a hard plane to keep in a stalled condition. It just mushes down till it gets a little sp eed back, and if you insist on holding the stick back it will do it again, bu t no wild break and pitch like my Bonanza. The photos look like he flew it straight down cause its all in a pile. From the limited info of the pictures I als o wondered if the lift strut on the left wing didn't separate and let it ju st stream down. I always figured that it the structure held together I could put it down anywhere. A large roof-top, a tree, somebodies back yard, a subdivision street. Somewhere. How bad can you get beat up at 35 mph if you're the least bit attentive. Don't worry about the fox at that point, she belongs to the insurance company. It's time to sya. Quoting kurt schrader : > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Before I decided to build my Fox I got the accident > summary on kitFox's from the EAA and went thru about > 300 reports. In all of that there were only 4 deaths > in 2 of the 300 accidents. Both were from steep > takeoff stalls. I gathered that the kitFox was a very > survival plane, if one just doesn't try to show off on > takeoff and is prepared for engine failure. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Guy Buchanan wrote: > >> At 12:21 PM 8/3/2006, you ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:30 PM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Thank you for the information on BMW's. I think we all expect to pay a premium to enjoy our hobby of flying, but in my opinion Rotax is starting to gouge us to hard. For example, the rubber flange for the bing carb connection is shown in the latest Lockwood catalog as $44.00. Yet when I priced it today the cost to us has more doubled to $95.00. With the trouble I have been having lately I am starting to think Jabiru. Barry West wrote: Jimmy, I am surprised you are having this problem with the 912 UL. I have a 912 ULS and went through a lot of problem with the shaking at start up and shut down of the engine. It was really violent. I sent the gearbox to Lockwood for them to tighten the sprag clutch and this greatly reduced the shaking. The 912 ULS tended to shake more than the other 912's and of course it is exagerated because the carbs are further away from the center of the engine than in other applications. I also bought rubber flanges from a motorcyle shop. They ordered them from a catlog. Remember, BMW used Bing carburettors - don't know if they still do. They were less than half the cost from Lockwood. These things together solved the problem. About 200 hours now and no more carburettors coming loose or tearing of the rubber flanges. I guess this is what others are calling aftermarket but I think they were exactly the same as Rotax supplies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimmie Blackwell To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. These are some of the things I have done and noted: - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, part # 267 788. - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well balanced. - After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. - My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, no burrs. - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago. At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. Jimmie ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:26 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. . ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:41 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Hi Guys, This thread ran a month or two ago. I have a part number for "aftermar ket" flanges that are used on Sea Doo snowmobile engines. Mine have been on for years and work fine. Cost? Less than $10 each! Rex in Michigan -- Jimmie Blackwell wrote: Thank you for the information on BMW's. I think we all expect to pay a premium to enjoy our hobby of flying, but in my opinion Rotax is startin g to gouge us to hard. For example, the rubber flange for the bing car b connection is shown in the latest Lockwood catalog as $44.00. Yet whe n I priced it today the cost to us has more doubled to $95.00. With the trouble I have been having lately I am starting to think Jabiru. Barry West wrote:Jimmy, I am surprised you are having t his problem with the 912 UL. I have a 912 ULS and went through a lot of problem with the shaking at start up and shut down of the engine. It w as really violent. I sent the gearbox to Lockwood for them to tighten t he sprag clutch and this greatly reduced the shaking. The 912 ULS tende d to shake more than the other 912's and of course it is exagerated beca use the carbs are further away from the center of the engine than in oth er applications. I also bought rubber flanges from a motorcyle shop. Th ey ordered them from a catlog. Remember, BMW used Bing carburettors - d on't know if they still do. They were less than half the cost from Lock wood. These things together solved the problem. About 200 hours now and no more carburettors coming loose or tearing of the rubber flanges. I g uess this is what others are calling aftermarket but I think they were e xactly the same as Rotax supplies.----- Original Message ----- From: Jim mie Blackwell To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 04, 200 6 12:13 PMSubject: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had trouble kee ping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL. One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the engine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retaining springs. These are some of the things I have done and noted: - My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8 mm spacer, part # 267 788. - Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyway and they are well balanced. - After taking the ca rb off I noted that the inside of the rubber flange has two places whe re the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing. - M y thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange. Not the case, the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flang e is smooth, no burrs. - Both of my rubber flanges were put on new abou t a year ago. At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should last longer. Would appreciate any ideas from you folks. Jimmie

Hi Guys,

  This thread ran a month or two ago. I have a part number for " aftermarket" flanges that are used on Sea Doo snowmobile engines. Mine h ave been on for years and work fine. Cost? Less than $10 each!

Rex in Michigan

-- Jimmie Blackwell <jimmieb lackwell@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Thank you for the information on BMW's.  I think we all expect to pay a premium to enjoy our hobby of flying, but in my opinion Rotax is starting to gouge us to hard. 
 
For example, the rubber flange for the bing carb connection is show n in the latest Lockwood catalog as $44.00.  Yet when I priced it t oday the cost to us has more doubled to $95.00.  With the trouble I have been having lately I am starting to think Jabiru.

Bar ry West <barry@pgtc.com> wrote:
Jimmy, I am surprised you are having th is problem with the 912 UL.  I have a 912 ULS and went through a lo t of problem with the shaking at start up and shut down of the engine.&n bsp; It was really violent.  I sent the gearbox to Lockwood for the m to tighten the sprag clutch and this greatly reduced the shaking.  ; The 912 ULS tended to shake more than the other 912's and of course it is exagerated because the carbs are further away from the center of the engine than in other applications.
 
I also bought rubber flanges from a mot orcyle shop.  They ordered them from a catlog.  Remember, BMW used Bing carburettors - don't know if they still do.  They we re less than half the cost from Lockwood.
 
These things together solved the proble m.  About 200 hours now and no more carburettors coming loose or te aring of the rubber flanges.
 
I guess this is what others are calling aftermarket but I think they were exactly the same as Rotax supplies.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12: 13 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul

Wanted to check and find out if any of you are having or had troubl e keeping the Bing carbs on the 912 UL.
 
One of my carbs works part way out of the rubber flange after the e ngine runs about 15 minutes and would fall off were it not for the retai ning springs.
 
These are some of the things I have done and noted:
 
-  My rubber flanges are the new type with the 8mm spacer, par t # 267 788.
 
-  Engine is running smooth, but checked for carb balance anyw ay and they are well
   balanced.
 
-  After taking the carb off I noted that the inside of the ru bber flange has
   two places where the rubber material is missing, about the size of a match head and
   several other much smaller areas where rubber material is missing.
 
-  My thought was that perhaps the metal part of the carb that fits into the rubber flange
   had a rough spot that rubbed on the rubber flange.&nbs p; Not the case, the metal part of
   the carb that fits into the rubber flange is smooth, n o burrs.
 
-  Both of my rubber flanges were put on new about a year ago.
 
At $87.00 apiece it seems to me that these rubber flanges should la st longer.  Would appreciate any ideas from you folks.
 
Jimmie

________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:14 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Survival at sea. WAS: Rotax 912 Now that's a good idea and you might happen to find a second use for them but I don't know about the whole 300. Rex. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:01 PM PST US From: David Estapa Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash-Latest report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: David Estapa Witnesses (non-aviation types) are reporting that the engine went quiet at about 200 feet and the pilot tried to turn back, and went straight in. The airplane hit about even with the end of the runway and several hundred feet to the left. Apparently there is a golf course close by but don't know where it is in respect to the runway. The airplane was one of the first customer built Vixens. The builder received the manual in installments as it was being written. Had a 80 hp 912. The pilot was a ground instructor for Delta, recently retired and was or has built a Glasair. He had been flying for 25 years. I met him and his son soon after he bought the airplane. I remembered the encounter because his 12 or 13 year old son knew far more about the Kitfox than I did. Rattled off all the specs. They wanted me to show them how to fold the wings because they had never folded them. I can't help but think of that young lad now. I had watched the first flight of this airplane at McCollum (RYY) in Cobb County, Georgia several years prior (when did the Vixen come out-around 94?). To my knowledge there are three Kitfoxes built in my little berg of Woodstock, GA. (Atlanta suburb)Now 2 have been involved in fatal crashes in less than a year. (The other was the IV on Christmas eve allegedly doing low level aerobatics with 2 aboard out west). The third Kitfox is mine, which was signed off by a DAR last week. (anybody know the number for Allied Van Lines-I'm moving). Anyway for political reason (re: the ruler of my house) I'll probably wait a few more days to move my bird to the airport. I have had calls from everyone I know who knows about my Kitfox-Have you heard...? Its sad, I've been involved in aviation for about 10 years and know far too many that have succumbed to this hobby. I have the words "FLY THE PLANE" in big letters in front of the pilots seat on the front spar carry thru. I just hope and pray if I am subjected to an emergency that I will abide by that. But you never know until you are confronted. The Kitfox can be replaced-I can't. C David Estapa Woodstock, GA S5TD N97DE (first flight soon) > > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on > climb-out > > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:05 PM PST US From: "eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have never been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will be but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. .. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:52 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skysta r (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have ne ver been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will b e but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. T he argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by h ow much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grind ing. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighbo ring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went furthe r to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot populat ion of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb- out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. =2E ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt . It's just called a Kitfox now.

-- "eccles" <eccle s@Chartermi.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message& nbsp;posted by: "eccles" <eccles@chartermi.net>

well if I remember my flight training& nbsp;correctly, they say if you have an
emergency on take off to fly straight&nbs p;ahead and Never try to turn back
espe cially when you don't have any altitude&nb sp;or in this case any airspeed
either  .and it sounds like he had neither. i t still wont bring him back but
it  ;is something for the rest of us to&n bsp;try and remember. I myself have never< BR>been in this situation except in traini ng and I hope that i never will  be
but just the same, You need to  be very aware of what you can and&nbs p;cannot do,
I feel that the skystar Ki tfox is a very safe aircraft if flown  with
respect,    just my two  ;cents


-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-kitfo x-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM< BR>

--> Kitfox-List message posted by:&nbs p;"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>

Marco's&nb sp;post reminds me of a post I recent ly sent to the Lancair list.
There has& nbsp;been a long thread having to with&nbs p;aircraft accident stastics.
Something about how  to measure them - flight hour or&nbs p;passenger miles.  The
argument involved wh ether general aviation is more or less&nbs p;safe and by how
much, than the schedu led air carriers and if so why.   ;Lots of talk about
concern for passengers&n bsp;keeping ones mind on business etc. ski ll level,
training and, of course, a lo t of posturing, pontificating and axe grin ding.

Anyway my comment had to do w ith my airman physical that I took Tu esday and
a conversation I had with ano ther pilot there for the same reason  - but his
was a Class I while mine  was the class III.  I found we& nbsp;lived in neighboring
towns and I asked& nbsp;him if he had an airplane.  He&n bsp;said no and went further to
say tha t he would not fly in a general  aviation airplane.  Then he
volunteered that  his company - US Air, to his kn owledge, loses about 3
pilots a year to  general aviation accidents.

Now if this  is a valid number and given US  Air's published pilot population
of 3228, th ey lose just under one pilot per thou sand per year.  I guess the
way I& nbsp;read this, assuming my new friend's n umbers are somewhat accurate, it
can be  ;concluded that there is a problem here.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
Sent:&nbs p;Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM


& gt; Latest report suggests pilot (an airli ne retiree) lost power on climb-out
>&nbs p;and tried to turn 180 degrees to th e runway he'd just left.
.








 
 
 
________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:38 PM PST US From: Sid Hausding Subject: Kitfox-List: Latest report David, "We learn from others mistakes".........I realize it sounds pretty cold and callous right now, but its our way of dealing with these incidents, and it works. Your little signage on the crossover will get you through, as well as your wits and training.........fly the plane. Good motto! We all fly with some second thoughts, but that is exactly what keeps most of us out of trouble. Knock on wood........... Sid ---------------------------- David Estapa <> wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: David Estapa Witnesses (non-aviation types) are reporting that the engine went quiet at about 200 feet and the pilot tried to turn back, and went straight in. The airplane hit about even with the end of the runway and several hundred feet to the left. Apparently there is a golf course close by but don't know where it is in respect to the runway. The airplane was one of the first customer built Vixens. The builder received the manual in installments as it was being written. Had a 80 hp 912. The pilot was a ground instructor for Delta, recently retired and was or has built a Glasair. He had been flying for 25 years. I met him and his son soon after he bought the airplane. I remembered the encounter because his 12 or 13 year old son knew far more about the Kitfox than I did. Rattled off all the specs. They wanted me to show them how to fold the wings because they had never folded them. I can't help but think of that young lad now. I had watched the first flight of this airplane at McCollum (RYY) in Cobb County, Georgia several years prior (when did the Vixen come out-around 94?). To my knowledge there are three Kitfoxes built in my little berg of Woodstock, GA. (Atlanta suburb)Now 2 have been involved in fatal crashes in less than a year. (The other was the IV on Christmas eve allegedly doing low level aerobatics with 2 aboard out west). The third Kitfox is mine, which was signed off by a DAR last week. (anybody know the number for Allied Van Lines-I'm moving). Anyway for political reason (re: the ruler of my house) I'll probably wait a few more days to move my bird to the airport. I have had calls from everyone I know who knows about my Kitfox-Have you heard...? Its sad, I've been involved in aviation for about 10 years and know far too many that have succumbed to this hobby. I have the words "FLY THE PLANE" in big letters in front of the pilots seat on the front spar carry thru. I just hope and pray if I am subjected to an emergency that I will abide by that. But you never know until you are confronted. The Kitfox can be replaced-I can't. C David Estapa Woodstock, GA S5TD N97DE (first flight soon) > > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on > climb-out > > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Why can't we all just get along?" --------------------------------- Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:02 PM PST US From: Sid Hausding Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Kitfoxers Richard, Say hi to Lee Sherwitz out at the airport and have fun at your Military flyin this weekend! Met two gentlmen from Benton Harbor while walking along Kitfox row in Oshkosh..........both older gentlemen, one using an electric cart and the other, his friend, who is restoring a rather large seaplane.........nice people! Get that one of yours up and flying and come north to visit. Sid Alpena just north of Deke in Mikado ------------------------------------------------ Richard Rabbers wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" > Michigan Kitfoxers Seems like a good 'location / type' contact list could benefit all on (our) Matronics list. The existing member list includes many voids and is not very well suited for sorting. Perhaps someday the structure could be improved. (not to minimize the great work that they do) It seems to me that those involved on this list might all welcome the chance to make contact with others no matter where they may find themselves. (when traveling, on lay-overs...etc) It might be tuff to avoid keeping a list that included contact info/email addresses from being captured by 'the outside' creating junk mail or other? Meantime I'm glad to be part of this new effort and assume good will come. Richard Rabbers 627 W Main Street Benton Harbor, MI 49022 (269) 925-1901 rira1950@yahoo.com Kitfox Model 1 - s/n 168 (purchased from 2nd owner - slowly being restored) Rotax 618, Powerfin prop Full Lotus floats - I'm enjoying this list very much. It's great to be able to become familar with Kitfox prior to flight... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52307#52307 "Why can't we all just get along?" --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:50 PM PST US From: "eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash sorry -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rexster Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:58 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have never been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will be but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. . ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:21 PM PST US From: "eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash When I bought my series V the company was owned by Phil Reed and they did everything that they could to make sure that i was completely satisfied with my aircraft , I really don't know what happened when Downs took over but i will support the new owners if there is ever anything I need. [eccles] -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rexster Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:58 PM ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have never been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will be but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. . ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:06 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash Personally I took a buddy up with me to a couple thousand feet and practiced engine out turn-arounds. Power on, pull it into a steep climb till it slows to best climb, hand off the throttle, and had him pull the power abruptly. Then he noted how much altitude it took me to do a 180. I know if I'm at least 500ft I'm safe to do a 180 at nearly gross in a IV... Regards, Ted -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:11 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Clint Bazzill" If you want to find out about take off accidents. Go to altitude, set up a steep take off climb, pull back the power (don't touch any thing and see what happens) I think you might be suprised. If you lose power on take off with a steep deck angle and turn back to the airport before letting the nose of the airplane drop below the horiz,. you most likely will spin. take some spin training, I taught them even though it wasn't required. Clint ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:26 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul I safety wired the top of my carbs long ago. Drilled a small hole in the web on the carb and put a few (slack) loops of wire around it and the balance tube fitting on both sides just in case. However, with that said, the carbs won't come out of the stiffer aftermarket sockets even without the wire... -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jimmie Blackwell Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 2:03 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul They are the stiffer ones and I think are impregnated with kevlar. I did just discover one possible cause. My carb has two retaining springs, one on each side. They do not have the spring on top of the carb that attaches to the balancing tube. Do you have this top spring? flier wrote: ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:52 PM PST US From: "Clint Bazzill" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Crash --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:21 PM PST US From: "wingsdown" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash-Latest report --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingsdown" Yep the fatal turn back. I am so thankful for those words I read in Rod Macados books "fly the plane; fly the plane; fly the plane". They have served me well several times. In the last event the fox was totaled but I was fortunate to have made the decision not to turn back. It was a real temptation and with the free wheeling prop major drag and increased sink beyond any dead stick I had ever done. Great list. Lets keep each other going. I too feel for his family and friends. My we never have to know personally those that have paid the ultimate price. I hope we can all remember we are human and subject to poor judgment, fatal circumstances and chains of events that can capture us. Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Estapa Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:19 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: David Estapa Witnesses (non-aviation types) are reporting that the engine went quiet at about 200 feet and the pilot tried to turn back, and went straight in...snip ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:03 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Hey Rexter, Are you saying the kit I ordered from Dan Denney and that was delivered by Skystar has had a name change? I think since Skystar delivered the kit, I'll still call it a Skystar Kitfox Model IV. Thanks, Lowell Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:57 PM ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have never been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will be but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. .. =================================== =================================== =================================== =================================== ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:51 PM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Pearsall" I have to agree with Lowell. The name of the plane remains, even if the company is out of business. I once owned a DeSoto Powermaster. Since then Chrysler took over the line, but if you see one on the street, it is still called a DeSoto. So I think it is still a Skystar Vixen. Don Pearsall -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:24 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Hey Rexter, Are you saying the kit I ordered from Dan Denney and that was delivered by Skystar has had a name change? I think since Skystar delivered the kit, I'll still call it a Skystar Kitfox Model IV. Thanks, Lowell Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:57 PM ..............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have never been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will be but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. The argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by how much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grinding. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighboring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went further to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot population of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb-out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. .. =================================== =================================== =================================== =================================== ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:41 PM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Crash Lowell, Oh, I don't know the details of that. I ordered from Dan Denney too an d it was called Denny Aerocraft, I think. The McBeans could give you the official answer to your question, but to most of us, "Skystar" is not s omething we want to associate with. MANY people paid for parts (includin g complete engines) and they never received them from Skystar. Lots of e mpty promises over the last few years as they were going bankrupt. I bel ieve the company is now called Kitfox LLC, but check with John and Debra for sure. From what I saw and heard at Oshkosh, the company is headed i n the right direction. Everybody I spoke with seemed impressed and happy with them. I hope they do well and I intend to buy a model 7 within two years. I'll build that and then sell my model 3. Cheers, Rex Phelps in Michigan -- "Lowell Fitt" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Hey Rexter, Are you saying the kit I ordered from Dan Denney and that was delivered by Skystar has had a name change? I think since Skystar delivered the kit, I'll still call it a Skystar Kitfox Model IV. Thanks, Lowell Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:57 PM =2E.............One small thing. It's not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skys tar (Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many Kitfox pilots/owners in debt. It's j ust called a Kitfox now. -- "eccles" wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "eccles" well if I remember my flight training correctly, they say if you have an emergency on take off to fly straight ahead and Never try to turn back especially when you don't have any altitude or in this case any airspeed either .and it sounds like he had neither. it still wont bring him back but it is something for the rest of us to try and remember. I myself have ne ver been in this situation except in training and I hope that i never will b e but just the same, You need to be very aware of what you can and cannot do, I feel that the skystar Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if flown with respect, just my two cents -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52 PM --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Marco's post reminds me of a post I recently sent to the Lancair list. There has been a long thread having to with aircraft accident stastics. Something about how to measure them - flight hour or passenger miles. T he argument involved whether general aviation is more or less safe and by h ow much, than the scheduled air carriers and if so why. Lots of talk about concern for passengers keeping ones mind on business etc. skill level, training and, of course, a lot of posturing, pontificating and axe grind ing. Anyway my comment had to do with my airman physical that I took Tuesday and a conversation I had with another pilot there for the same reason - but his was a Class I while mine was the class III. I found we lived in neighbo ring towns and I asked him if he had an airplane. He said no and went furthe r to say that he would not fly in a general aviation airplane. Then he volunteered that his company - US Air, to his knowledge, loses about 3 pilots a year to general aviation accidents. Now if this is a valid number and given US Air's published pilot populat ion of 3228, they lose just under one pilot per thousand per year. I guess the way I read this, assuming my new friend's numbers are somewhat accurate, it can be concluded that there is a problem here. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM > Latest report suggests pilot (an airline retiree) lost power on climb- out > and tried to turn 180 degrees to the runway he'd just left. =2E ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== ===========

Lowell,

  Oh, I don't know the details of that. I ordered from Dan Denne y too and it was called Denny Aerocraft, I think. The McBeans could give you the official answer to your question, but to most of us, "Skystar" is not something we want to associate with. MANY people paid for parts ( including complete engines) and they never received them from Skyst ar. Lots of empty promises over the last few years as they were going ba nkrupt. I believe the company is now called Kitfox LLC, but check with J ohn and Debra for sure. From what I saw and heard at Oshkosh, the compan y is headed in the right direction. Everybody I spoke with seemed impres sed and happy with them. I hope they do well and I intend to buy a model 7 within two years. I'll build that and then sell my model 3.

Cheers,

Rex Phelps in Michigan

 


-- "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>  ;wrote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by:&nbs p;"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>

Hey R exter,

Are you saying the kit I ord ered from Dan Denney and that was del ivered by 
Skystar has had a name  change?  I think since Skystar delivered&n bsp;the kit, 
I'll still call it a  ;Skystar Kitfox Model IV.

Thanks,

Lowell

Do Not Archive
----- Original Message - ---- 
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:5 7 PM


..............One small thing. It's& nbsp;not a Skystar Kitfox anymore. Skystar  ;
(Skyscam) is bankrupt and left many K itfox pilots/owners in debt. It's just 
called a Kitfox now.

-- "eccles" <ec cles@Chartermi.net> wrote:
--> Kitfox-List messa ge posted by: "eccles" <eccles@chartermi.net>< BR>
well if I remember my flight traini ng correctly, they say if you have an
emergency on take off to fly straight& nbsp;ahead and Never try to turn back
e specially when you don't have any altitude  or in this case any airspeed
either&nb sp;.and it sounds like he had neither.&nbs p;it still wont bring him back but
it&n bsp;is something for the rest of us t o try and remember. I myself have nev er
been in this situation except in tra ining and I hope that i never will&nb sp;be
but just the same, You need to&nb sp;be very aware of what you can and& nbsp;cannot do,
I feel that the skystar  ;Kitfox is a very safe aircraft if fl own with
respect,    just my two&n bsp;cents


-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-ki tfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell F itt
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 5:52  PM


--> Kitfox-List message posted by:& nbsp;"Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>

Marco's  post reminds me of a post I rec ently sent to the Lancair list.
There h as been a long thread having to with& nbsp;aircraft accident stastics.
Something about  how to measure them - flight hour or& nbsp;passenger miles.  The
argument involved  ;whether general aviation is more or less& nbsp;safe and by how
much, than the sch eduled air carriers and if so why. &n bsp;Lots of talk about
concern for passenger s keeping ones mind on business etc.  skill level,
training and, of course, a  ;lot of posturing, pontificating and axe g rinding.

Anyway my comment had to do&nbs p;with my airman physical that I took  ;Tuesday and
a conversation I had with  another pilot there for the same reason&nb sp;- but his
was a Class I while m ine was the class III.  I found  we lived in neighboring
towns and I ask ed him if he had an airplane.  H e said no and went further to
say  that he would not fly in a general&nb sp;aviation airplane.  Then he
volunteered t hat his company - US Air, to his  ;knowledge, loses about 3
pilots a year  ;to general aviation accidents.

Now if t his is a valid number and given US&nb sp;Air's published pilot population
of 3228,  ;they lose just under one pilot per t housand per year.  I guess the
way  ;I read this, assuming my new friend's&nbs p;numbers are somewhat accurate, it
can be&n bsp;concluded that there is a problem here .

Lowell
----- Original Message -----
Sent:& nbsp;Friday, August 04, 2006 12:40 PM

> Latest report suggests pilot (an ai rline retiree) lost power on climb-out
>& nbsp;and tried to turn 180 degrees to  ;the runway he'd just left.
.
















======== ======================== ====

================== ==================

==== ======================== ========
=============== =====================

< ======================== ======================== nbsp;the Matronics List Features Navigator to&n bsp;Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,&                                        ======================== sp;          - NE  the All New Matronics Email List Wik nbsp;           & nbsp;           & nbsp;           < ======================== ========================       - List Contribution W p;           &nbs p;           &nbs ======================== ======================== ===



 
 
 

________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:28 PM PST US From: "Richard Rabbers" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Michigan Kitfoxers --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" > Say hi to Lee Sherwitz out at the airport ...... and have fun at your Military flyin this weekend! ......Get that one of yours up and flying and come north to visit. Hello Sid, - What does Lee do at BEH? - A couple flights today... I'll be working on a project on the north (airport) side of my place this weekend. I expect some good sights. - Many projects underway... sure looking forward to getting in the air. Richard Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=52490#52490 ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:53 PM PST US From: "Kenneth and Alice Jones" Subject: Kitfox-List: Motorcycle grip Throttle --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kenneth and Alice Jones" Cut Schrader's comment about a motorcycle grip throttle caught my attention. I'm building an S7 taildragger. I have a bad left leg from polio as a child - not enough strength for left rudder. I used to fly an RV-4. Sold it to build the Kitfox - no need for speed anymore. I had left rudder and left brake hand controls on the RV-4. On landings I cut the power to idle when the field was made. I needed the left hand for rudder (particularly on crosswinds) and right for the stick. I never did wheel landings - a bit too cautious I guess. I don't know much about motorcycles. Could a motorcycle grip throttle be installed on the S7 stick, but still have a regular throttle for others would might fly the plane? I'm using a Rotax 912S, which, of course, has two carbs. Sure, I could probably fly the S7 like the RV-4, but I would much rather have use of the throttle on the landing and roll-out - more options, you know. I hadn't thought about the motorcycle grip before. Is it even feasible to run two throttle cables to two carbs? How could the motorcycle throttle be locked to maintain cruise RPM? Any ideas would be appreciated. If this sounds a little dumb, have some compassion - I'm a good accountant - not an engineer. Ken Jones ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:48 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: (off-topic) temperature. WAS Passenger safety - Michel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 4, 2006, at 8:52 PM, John Marzulli wrote: > A water temp of 22C? Climate is funny, John. In Belgium, where I was born and where the tidal difference is nearly 5 meters, the sea water stays always cool from its circulation. But in Norway, we have practically no tide, the water sedates and, that far north, nearly 20 hours of sunlight at midsummer. Hence the warm temperature in the small sandy coves we have as beaches. Seattle is, of course, under the influence of a cold Pacific current, as opposed to the blessed Gulf Stream we have here. Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:47 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: (off-topic) Hurricanes WAS Passenger safety - Michel --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 4, 2006, at 9:43 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote: > Right now, Puerto Rico is in the hurricane season, so most of the light > planes are stored in a garage. Yes, I know. Time to immigrate to Norway, hombre! :-) I have a friend in West Palm Beach who is retired and when the hurricane season is at its worse, he gets in his mobile home, called Mother Earth, and moves north. Cheers, Michel do not archive