---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/09/06: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:44 AM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (Jimmie Blackwell) 2. 12:46 AM - Re: Lost Carbs (Jimmie Blackwell) 3. 03:27 AM - Spars-reminder (Dave G.) 4. 04:29 AM - Re: Spars-reminder (Fox5flyer) 5. 05:04 AM - Rotax 582 cover plate (kitfox) 6. 05:40 AM - Re: Kitfox III-A W&B, Preflight report (Noel Loveys) 7. 05:53 AM - Kitfox Storage pod (Noel Loveys) 8. 06:45 AM - Re: Rotax 582 cover plate (Aerobatics@aol.com) 9. 06:45 AM - Re: Kitfox Storage pod (Rexster) 10. 06:47 AM - Re: Spars-reminder (Dave G.) 11. 10:06 AM - Flying without doors (tc9008@aol.com) 12. 11:00 AM - Re: Flying without doors (flier) 13. 11:10 AM - Re: Flying without doors (wingnut) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: Flying without doors (Lowell Fitt) 15. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: sales/use tax RV 9 (Ron Liebmann) 16. 12:04 PM - Re: Flying without doors (darinh) 17. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (W Duke) 18. 12:26 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (flier) 19. 12:33 PM - Re: Flying without doors (Michel Verheughe) 20. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (Randy Daughenbaugh) 21. 12:55 PM - Re: Flying without doors (wingnut) 22. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (tc9008@aol.com) 23. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (Lowell Fitt) 24. 01:37 PM - Re: Flying without doors (Fox5flyer) 25. 02:11 PM - Re: Flying without doors (Richard Rabbers) 26. 02:54 PM - Re: Flying without doors (flier) 27. 03:02 PM - Re: Flying without doors (Marco Menezes) 28. 03:46 PM - Re: Kitfox Storage pod (Noel Loveys) 29. 04:11 PM - Re: Flying without doors (Barry West) 30. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (John Anderson) 31. 04:16 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (Steve Wilson) 32. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (RAY Gignac) 33. 05:37 PM - Re: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul (jeff puls) 34. 06:39 PM - Carbs falling off 912's (Rex Shaw) 35. 08:38 PM - Re: Carbs falling off 912's (Richard Rabbers) 36. 08:41 PM - Re: Flying without doors (john perry) 37. 08:50 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (Cudnohufsky's) 38. 08:56 PM - Re: Flying without doors (darinh) 39. 09:45 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (kurt schrader) 40. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: Flying without doors (kurt schrader) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:07 AM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul I talked to Lockwood aviation and the Tech said that the real problem was that we Kitfoxers turn the intake manifold around which puts the carb in a position to be more vulnerable to shaking. That does not help us much because as far as I know we do not have a choice about swapping the intake manifolds. I believe the real problem is a material defect in the newest rubber flanges. Soon as I get my replacement rubber flanges installed I am sending the old one (which is less than a year old) to Phil Lockwood and ask him to examine the pitting inside this rubber flange. It would probably be a good idea for anyone who has the new type rubber flanges, (that is the type with the 8mm spacer, Rotax part # 267788), to check in side for signs of pitting. Jimmie jeff puls wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" Grant, Stick with the orignal design of the Rotax. Something else is going on. Is your prop properly balanced and pitched? Are you using the latest sockets (check the part numbers)? Have you talked to a Rotax tech? Jeff Classic IV 912UL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Fluent" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent > > Jimmie, > I posted a question and an idea to the list a while > back concerning the 912 carbs shaking off but got > little feedback. I had the idea of making a pair of > brackets that would bolt to the top of the cylinder > heads on each side that go rearward bending under the > carb bowl and back up to a ring that would support the > back of the carburetor. These brackets would bolt to > the spare threaded hole on the top of each cylinder > head. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that this > threaded hole will be used for on my Classic IV (still > building). For as little weight as they would add, it > would sure give me piece of mind that the carbs aren't > going to fall off after takeoff. I still plan on > using Clint Bazzill's method of startup and shutdown. > Has anyone else thought of doing this or has done > this? > Grant Fluent > Newcastle, NE > Classic IV 912S > > > --- Jimmie Blackwell > wrote: > >> Hope to have two top springs plus new rubber flange >> in the mail tomorrow. Sure hope that fixes the >> problem. >> >> Thanks John >> >> Jimmie >> >> John King wrote: >> Jimmie, >> >> The springs on each side of the carbs were provided >> by SkyStar as part of the firewall kit. The one >> spring on the top of the carbs is a Rotax provided >> part and can be ordered through Lockwood. >> >> -- John King Warrenton, VA >> >> Jimmie Blackwell wrote: >> They are the stiffer ones and I think are >> impregnated with kevlar. >> >> I did just discover one possible cause. My carb >> has two retaining springs, one on each side. They >> do not have the spring on top of the carb that >> attaches to the balancing tube. Do you have this >> top spring? >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:11 AM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lost Carbs Great information ED. Thank you. Jimmie Ed Grasso wrote: Ive been seeing a lot of posts about carbs popping out. I had this problem early on with my 912S. Here are some of the things I did to cure it. 1 Look on the sportflight site I posted some pics on how I setup my carb springs (lower springs from hardware store) 2 Had slipper clutch installed by Lockwood. 3 Rough up carb inlet where they fit into sockets with scotchbrite. 4 Clean carb socket with acetone. 5 Dont over tighten the clamp I used washers for the 7mm gap. 6 Make sure your carbs are in sync I used a synchromate 2 I got from Bing Agency you can contact them at 800-309-5808 much better than the dual vacuum gauges also has a built in tach. 7 Use Clints start procedure here is how I do it. He may correct me. 1 Dont use a primer close the throttle and crank 10 seconds with mags off (you must have switches separate from the start switch) holding the enrichiner out to prime. 2 Set throttle to a spot you know will idle 2000 and turn on mags and start. If the engine does not start right up STOP and prime again or clear flood by mags off throttle open and crank. Also after your engine breaks in you will notice much improvement. You can contact me at 610-564-0803 with any questions I will be happy to help. I have not lost a carb in 225 hrs. Ed Grasso ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:39 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Hi John. I had contacted you just as you were on the way out the door for Oshkosh about my spars and inserts and a few other bits. I thought I would dash off a reminder in case the request got lost in the rush. If you need more information, just ask. Thanks. Dave Goddard ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:06 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Dave, if this message was meant for John McBean, his address is jdmcbean@cableone.net Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave G. To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 6:26 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Hi John. I had contacted you just as you were on the way out the door for Oshkosh about my spars and inserts and a few other bits. I thought I would dash off a reminder in case the request got lost in the rush. If you need more information, just ask. Thanks. Dave Goddard ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:12 AM PST US From: kitfox Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 cover plate --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kitfox I have a Rotax 582 blue head I'm putting in a KF III. It has an E gear box on it. I took off the rope pull start mechanism. This leaves an area on the back of the engine where the starter would go if using a C gear box. Should I fashion a cover plate for this area before I install it or will it not matter. It will not really keep out dirt as the cover can not easily be air tight. It would mostly just cover that attach area for the starter. Opinions ? Bruce ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:57 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III-A W&B, Preflight report My mistake....This should get the file to you. Sorry 'bout that. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Wilson Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III-A W&B, Preflight report This info would be interesting to review, but there was no attachment. Steve Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 6:47 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III-A W&B, Preflight report I did up this X-Cell file to make flight planning a little easier... it works for my plane on Aerocet 1100 straight floats. to use this calculator; First unprotect the sheet and change cell [B10] to the magnetic variation for your part of the world, [C16] and [D16] to your empty weight and CG. Then re-protect the sheet to avoid making input errors. When you are ready to fly all you have to do is input the correct data, in black bold in cells [B4 to B12] except [B10] the excel does the rest for you. To update all the Performance data change the contents of E29 and E30 ( Launch location and altitude) then excel will calculate the cross wind effects and pressure altitude. the sheet is easily changed for conventional and tri gear too. I usually print one copy to staple to a flight itinerary and up load a copy to my PDA for reference. Note: the cell protection doesn't work on the PDA... The advantages of using the PDA are in case I take on more fuel or weight at a remote location. Fly Fish, Fly Floats, Fly Safe! Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMuller589@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 8:23 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance Attached is subject page from SERIES V POH page 2-4. I found a way to reduce it from 2.4mb to 266.4KB. Hope I can figure a way to repeat it for future X-MSN. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader What was the source of the note? First I have seen that. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- AMuller589@aol.com wrote: ...... An associated note said > > " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection be > limited to (unspecified) > notch on Series V tail draggers when operating at CG > stations forward of 11.70 > inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a > three point attitude upon > landing at extreme forward CG stations with full > flaps...... ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:09 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Storage pod John: Can you post a picture of a kitfox with the storage pod you manufacture installed or a picture of the pod alone? Also will that pod attach to my mod III-A on floats? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:45 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards We can make them. and yes they are easy to attach. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards Where could I find a storage pod for a KF5 and are they easy to attach? Layne ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:19 AM PST US From: Aerobatics@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 cover plate That's a good question... I did in fact make a cover plate for my 582 BH because I used a e box.... 260 hours later perfect... Dave KF2 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:19 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Storage pod Noel, I have the pod on my model III. It's been on the entire 580 hours and I like it a lot. If you need pictures, I can get you some. Rex in Michigan -- "Noel Loveys" wrote: John:Can you post a picture of a kitfox with the storage pod you manufac ture installed or a picture of the pod alone? Also will that pod attac h to my mod III-A on floats? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-s erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:45 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards We can make them=85 and yes they are easy to attach=85 Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-s erver@matronics.com]On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards Where could I find a storage pod for a KF5 and are they easy to attach? Layne ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

Noel,

  I have the pod on my model III. It's been on the entire 580 ho urs and I like it a lot. If you need  pictures, I can get you some.

Rex in Michigan



-- "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>&n bsp;wrote:

John:
Can you post a pict ure of a kitfox with the storage pod you manufacture installed or a pict ure of the pod alone? 
  ;
Also will that pod attach to my mod III-A on floats?
 

Noel

-----Original Message-----
From: ow ner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@ma tronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Sent: Tuesday, Augus t 08, 2006 9:45 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject : RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards

We can make them=85 and yes they are easy to at tach=85

 

Fly Safe !!

John & Debra McBean

208.337.5111

www.kitfoxaircr aft.com   

" The Sky is not the Limit...  It's a Playground"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mail to:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:26 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics. com
Subject: Re: Kitf ox-List: Kitfox Awards

 

Where could I find a storage pod for a KF5 and are they easy to at tach?    Layne



________________ ________________________________________________________
Try Juno Pla tinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:03 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Yes it was, I've got his address thanks. I just hit the wrong button. ----- Original Message ----- From: Fox5flyer To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Dave, if this message was meant for John McBean, his address is jdmcbean@cableone.net Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave G. To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 6:26 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spars-reminder Hi John. I had contacted you just as you were on the way out the door for Oshkosh about my spars and inserts and a few other bits. I thought I would dash off a reminder in case the request got lost in the rush. If you need more information, just ask. Thanks. Dave Goddard ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:16 AM PST US From: tc9008@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:38 AM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" Flown my IV with'em open, not off, but it shouldn't make any difference. Flies fine. Lot of breeze! Just make sure your turtledeck is secure as there's a lot of pressure on it. Regards, Ted --- Original Message --- From: tc9008@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? >_____________________________________________________ ___________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:16 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors From: "wingnut" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Did you do something to secure your doors in the up position? I'd like to try it but my doors are only supported by the lift struts. I was worried that the doors would bang around. How about flying without a turtledeck? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53678#53678 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:25 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Although I have never flown with the doors removed, I have flown with both doors open and mine open as I take photos. I find that with the doors open, the doors give a little bit of lift as the nose will pitch up a bit as the door rises. Others have much more experience with open door flying and I know there are listers that routinely remove their doors for summer flying. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:04 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:52 AM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: sales/use tax RV 9 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ron Liebmann" mist ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Smythe" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:25 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: sales/use tax RV 9 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" > > Read and weep > > http://www.sctax.org/Publications/mov2sc.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wingnut" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:01 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: sales/use tax RV 9 > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" >> >> What!? You have to pay 6%/year just to own your airplane? Yikes. My state >> (SC) has a personal property tax but it never occured to me that it might >> cover airplanes. I'll sell the damn thing and switch to an ultralight >> before I pay them 6% though. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53354#53354 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:42 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors From: "darinh" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" I have flown with them off and also with them open. Didn't notice a difference between the two. I should mention that these were the bubble doors, not the stock doors. Darin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53691#53691 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:42 PM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors I fly our 6 with doors open occasionally. No extra support is needed but I limit airspeed to less than 80 kts. I had the left door "flutter" once in a descent at about 85-90kts. It was a slow cycle not what I would typically think of as flutter but it went up and down forcefully enough to cause a small crack in the LP bubble door. Maxwell S6/TD/IO240 wingnut wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Did you do something to secure your doors in the up position? I'd like to try it but my doors are only supported by the lift struts. I was worried that the doors would bang around. How about flying without a turtledeck? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53678#53678 Maxwell Duke S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:24 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" The doors 'fly' fine when they're open on only the lift struts. --- Original Message --- From: "wingnut" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" > >Did you do something to secure your doors in the up position? I'd like to try it but my doors are only supported by the lift struts. I was worried that the doors would bang around. > >How about flying without a turtledeck? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php? p=53678#53678 > > >_- ===================================================== ===== browse Subscriptions page, FAQ, List >_- ===================================================== ===== (was 2MB) >_- ===================================================== ===== Web Forums! >_- ===================================================== ===== >_- ===================================================== ===== Admin. >_- ===================================================== ===== > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:13 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 9, 2006, at 8:36 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > Although I have never flown with the doors removed, I have flown with > both doors open and mine open as I take photos. Just like Lowell, I also open a door when I, or my passenger want to take photos. It may be different from model to model but my Kitfox model 3 will keep the door open, even if there was no lift struts. Closing them is not difficult either, it takes a bit of a pull but not too much. Landing with the doors open doesn't seem to affect the flying characteristics nor the stall speed, even as the door is pretty close to the wing. One thing, though: Try to avoid having loose objects, like maps, etc. when opening the doors and preferably, don't side slip. Someone on this list managed to blow off his turtle deck by doing that, if I am not mistaking. Also from reading this list and not from own experience, flying without turtle deck is very much reducing the lift of the plane. Someone else will certainly explain to you why. Cheers, Michel ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:10 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors Wing nut, I fly my series 5/7 with doors open. But I do try to limit speed to about 85 mph. There was a caution on the list a while back to NOT fly without the turtle deck. I don't have any experience with this, but can believe that is not a good idea. Randy . _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of W Duke Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors I fly our 6 with doors open occasionally. No extra support is needed but I limit airspeed to less than 80 kts. I had the left door "flutter" once in a descent at about 85-90kts. It was a slow cycle not what I would typically think of as flutter but it went up and down forcefully enough to cause a small crack in the LP bubble door. Maxwell S6/TD/IO240 wingnut wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Did you do something to secure your doors in the up position? I'd like to try it but my doors are only supported by the lift struts. I was worried that the doors would bang around. How about flying without a turtledeck? Read this topic online ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:29 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors From: "wingnut" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Cool. This is good news. The heat index in South Carolina has been in the triple digits for a couple of weeks now. I've often thought about flying with the doors up but never had the courage to try it. Maybe now I'll give it a try.. Sheesh, my palms are getting a little sweaty just writing about it... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53702#53702 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:47 PM PST US From: tc9008@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors I actually took the doors off and left them off all summer. I was afraid it would damage the shocks if I didn't . It appears to decend very rapidly but in NC it's a blessing with the heat. Travis -----Original Message----- From: wingnut@spamarrest.com Sent: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 3:54 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Cool. This is good news. The heat index in South Carolina has been in the triple digits for a couple of weeks now. I've often thought about flying with the doors up but never had the courage to try it. Maybe now I'll give it a try.. Sheesh, my palms are getting a little sweaty just writing about it... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53702#53702 ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:07 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" This post brings to mind a flutter I had early this year. I attributed it to weak gas struts. I ordered new ones and for the one most often open - mine, I ordered a stronger strut. No problems since. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "W Duke" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors >I fly our 6 with doors open occasionally. No extra support is needed but I >limit airspeed to less than 80 kts. I had the left door "flutter" once in >a descent at about 85-90kts. It was a slow cycle not what I would >typically think of as flutter but it went up and down forcefully enough to >cause a small crack in the LP bubble door. > > Maxwell S6/TD/IO240 > > wingnut wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" > > Did you do something to secure your doors in the up position? I'd like to > try it but my doors are only supported by the lift struts. I was worried > that the doors would bang around. > > How about flying without a turtledeck? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53678#53678 > > > Maxwell Duke > S6/IO240/Phase II Flight Testing > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:38 PM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I've never actually removed mine either. They fly just fine opened up so I never felt a need to remove them. So long as the ball is in the center there's very little wind. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Although I have never flown with the doors removed, I have flown with both > doors open and mine open as I take photos. I find that with the doors open, > the doors give a little bit of lift as the nose will pitch up a bit as the > door rises. > > Others have much more experience with open door flying and I know there are > listers that routinely remove their doors for summer flying. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:04 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > > > > Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:15 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors From: "Richard Rabbers" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" No real time KF experience here - just thoughts. Doors and cabin breeze - It might be interesting to clamp on some sort of deflect at the front edge of - like a sun roof on a car. Turtle Deck - I'd imagine alot of turbulance as a result of 'no turtle deck' flight. Same wonder as above - might a deflector help windflow and reduce turbulance. Lost lift must be a result of turbulant. -------- Richard in SW Michigan Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53712#53712 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:48 PM PST US From: "flier" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" There's suction back across the turtledeck from the lift created by the wings and aft cabin. Coupled with windblast puts a lot of pressure on the turtledeck. --- Original Message --- From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > >Also from reading this list and not from own experience, flying without >turtle deck is very much reducing the lift of the plane. Someone else >will certainly explain to you why. > >Cheers, >Michel > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:27 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors Does it make any difference if only one door is open? Fox5flyer wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" I've never actually removed mine either. They fly just fine opened up so I never felt a need to remove them. So long as the ball is in the center there's very little wind. Deke Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:00 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Storage pod Rex: Yes please... I'd appreciate them.... Will the pod install while the plane is on floats? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rexster Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Storage pod Noel, I have the pod on my model III. It's been on the entire 580 hours and I like it a lot. If you need pictures, I can get you some. Rex in Michigan -- "Noel Loveys" wrote: John: Can you post a picture of a kitfox with the storage pod you manufacture installed or a picture of the pod alone? Also will that pod attach to my mod III-A on floats? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 9:45 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards We can make them. and yes they are easy to attach. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Awards Where could I find a storage pod for a KF5 and are they easy to attach? Layne ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:25 PM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Barry West" I fly my model IV often with one door open and it is mostly held open by the slipstream but occasionally trys to close. With both doors open it is just too windy. I think the open door slows me a bit but not enough to worry about. I would not fly it with the trutledeck removed. Barry West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Although I have never flown with the doors removed, I have flown with both > doors open and mine open as I take photos. I find that with the doors > open, the doors give a little bit of lift as the nose will pitch up a bit > as the door rises. > > Others have much more experience with open door flying and I know there > are listers that routinely remove their doors for summer flying. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:04 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors > > >> Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:04 PM PST US From: "John Anderson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --- MIME Errors - No Plain-Text Section Found --- A message with no text/plain MIME section was received. The entire body of the message was removed. Please resend the email using Plain Text formatting. HOTMAIL is notorious for only including an HTML section in their client's default configuration. If you're using HOTMAIL, please see your email application's settings and switch to a default mail option that uses "Plain Text". --- MIME Errors No Plain-Text Section Found --- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:02 PM PST US From: "Steve Wilson" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Wilson" Bubble Doors? I have been trying to get information on Bubble Doors. What are they like? Can you send a photo? Did you build them, or did you buy them? If you bought them, where and how much? Steve Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" > > I have flown with them off and also with them open. Didn't notice a > difference between the two. I should mention that these were the bubble > doors, not the stock doors. > > Darin > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53691#53691 > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:50 PM PST US From: "RAY Gignac" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" I have the bubble doors on my Model IV, and luv them> you can buy them from L/P aero plastics. Ray >From: "Steve Wilson" >To: >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors >Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 17:15:35 -0600 > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Wilson" > >Bubble Doors? I have been trying to get information on Bubble Doors. What >are they like? Can you send a photo? Did you build them, or did you buy >them? If you bought them, where and how much? >Steve Wilson > >----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:03 PM >Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" >> >>I have flown with them off and also with them open. Didn't notice a >>difference between the two. I should mention that these were the bubble >>doors, not the stock doors. >> >>Darin >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53691#53691 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:02 PM PST US From: "jeff puls" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" Grant, The slipper clutch will help. I have not lost a socket but I am cautious. I have a rough running engine when I retard the throttle going through about 3400 rpm. Never could get it out. The engine has never so much as hiccupped. It is great at high rpm. Are you making your brackets out of stainless steel? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Fluent" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 11:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on 912Ul > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent > > Jeff, > Thanks for your reply. My Classic IV is not flying > yet but I'm trying to plan ahead. With all of the > reports of carbs falling off, it will probably happen > to me too until I get everything fine tuned. What I > was planning on doing was making a simple bracket for > each side that would fasten to the clamp at the air > filters so the carb couldn't wiggle up and down in the > socket. I agree with you about sticking to original > designs. I feel that one of the main reasons people > have trouble losing the carbs is due to the swapped > manifolds not being a Rotax design. It's really too > bad that the engine mount requires the manifold > relocation. I have shortened my engine mount bushings > to the Skystar recommended length so hopefully that > should help. Also, the engine is new enough that it > came from the factory with the slipper clutch. > Grant Fluent > Newcastle, NE > Classic IV 912S > > > --- jeff puls wrote: > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jeff puls" >> >> >> Grant, >> Stick with the orignal design of the Rotax. >> Something else is going on. Is >> your prop properly balanced and pitched? Are you >> using the latest sockets >> (check the part numbers)? Have you talked to a Rotax >> tech? Jeff Classic IV >> 912UL >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Grant Fluent" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 5:37 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Carburetor Troubles on >> 912Ul >> >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent >> >> > >> > Jimmie, >> > I posted a question and an idea to the list a >> while >> > back concerning the 912 carbs shaking off but got >> > little feedback. I had the idea of making a pair >> of >> > brackets that would bolt to the top of the >> cylinder >> > heads on each side that go rearward bending under >> the >> > carb bowl and back up to a ring that would support >> the >> > back of the carburetor. These brackets would bolt >> to >> > the spare threaded hole on the top of each >> cylinder >> > head. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that >> this >> > threaded hole will be used for on my Classic IV >> (still >> > building). For as little weight as they would >> add, it >> > would sure give me piece of mind that the carbs >> aren't >> > going to fall off after takeoff. I still plan on >> > using Clint Bazzill's method of startup and >> shutdown. >> > Has anyone else thought of doing this or has done >> > this? >> > Grant Fluent >> > Newcastle, NE >> > Classic IV 912S >> > >> > >> > --- Jimmie Blackwell >> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Hope to have two top springs plus new rubber >> flange >> >> in the mail tomorrow. Sure hope that fixes the >> >> problem. >> >> >> >> Thanks John >> >> >> >> Jimmie >> >> >> >> John King wrote: >> >> Jimmie, >> >> >> >> The springs on each side of the carbs were >> provided >> >> by SkyStar as part of the firewall kit. The one >> >> spring on the top of the carbs is a Rotax >> provided >> >> part and can be ordered through Lockwood. >> >> >> >> -- John King Warrenton, VA >> >> >> >> Jimmie Blackwell wrote: >> >> They are the stiffer ones and I think are >> >> impregnated with kevlar. >> >> >> >> I did just discover one possible cause. My >> carb >> >> has two retaining springs, one on each side. >> They >> >> do not have the spring on top of the carb that >> >> attaches to the balancing tube. Do you have this >> >> top spring? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List >> >> (was 2MB) >> >> Web Forums! >> >> >> Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:28 PM PST US From: "Rex Shaw" Subject: Kitfox-List: Carbs falling off 912's Hi ! Guys, just a thought re all this talk of carbs falling of Rotax 912's. I may not know what I'm talking about here as I fly behind a 582 but just in case it helps here goes ! The carb socket problem on the 582 is cracking allowing air leakage not the carbs falling off. About 12 months ago I purchased two aftermarket carb sockets from some place called JBM in USA. I am in Australia. Anyway the guy was very nice and he said he flew an ultralight and ran this business making various rubber parts for autos. He said the aftermarket carb sockets he was making to solve his and everyone elses problem were actually made out of a different material that he did name at the time and they would last for ten years, possibly for ever. They look slightly different in material composition and shape. They are smoother surface and tapered rather than stepped. They hold the carbs much better. The original Rotax sockets let the carbs sag a bit. IF this guy makes carb sockets for 912's I would think he might well have solved your problem. Sorry I don't know how to contact him now [ I wish I did as I might need him again ] but if someone knows who I'm talking about and he does make carby sockets for 912's I would think it worth a try. His price was also very good. In Australia it still only cost me the same to get these better sockets as to buy the original Rotax very inferior product in this instance. I have been using these sockets for about 12 months now and they are great. The originals last about 2 years. I see someone mention roughening the carb surface where it goes into the socket and I can confirm this has solved the same issue in a different situation for me in the past. Goodluck, Rex Shaw. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Carbs falling off 912's From: "Richard Rabbers" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" JBM Industries, Kent, OHIO 330-678-9537 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53789#53789 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:32 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors many very fun and exciting hours flying with them open and or off the plane .A lot of times I will take off then after climb out open doors and let them fly in the breeze then before landing shut them . I have also landed with them open I do not have the gas struts on them so therefor they start to shut when slowing down in the rollout . Fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD 582 c box /GSC 3 blade DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: tc9008@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:04 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Flying without doors Has anyone Flown their kitfox without doors? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:09 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@chartermi.net> My experience flying with doors open in a Kitfox 4, my 10 year old son and I did a short x-country a few years back. We stopped for lunch in Wisconsin, landing was front left quartering x-wind 18 gusting to 22. I told my son to eat light because it was going to be a bumpy ride home, just in case right before we left I told him if he felt sick to pop the door open and let it fly. About 1/2 way home at 4K feet and cruising 70, with no warning he slipped his mic up on his headset, popped open the door and commenced to hang out on the ends of the shoulder harnesses and let it fly. He then gently rolled back in, slid his mic down and asked if I could get the door for him, I did so (Had pull straps mounted on the center bar of the door). We got home and his mom asked how the trip was, he said OK. The next day we had some cleanup to do on the tail of the plane. Flying with doors open and opening and closing in flight was no problem at the speeds my plane was capable of. My door latches were twist latches at the bottom of the doors so I made an extension that would allow me to either latch the door completely closed or latch about 1/2" open, made for a nice breeze not to much. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "RAY Gignac" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "RAY Gignac" > > I have the bubble doors on my Model IV, and luv them> you can buy them > from L/P aero plastics. > > Ray > > >>From: "Steve Wilson" >>To: >>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors >>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 17:15:35 -0600 >> >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Steve Wilson" >> >>Bubble Doors? I have been trying to get information on Bubble Doors. >>What are they like? Can you send a photo? Did you build them, or did you >>buy them? If you bought them, where and how much? >>Steve Wilson >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:03 PM >>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors >> >> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" >>> >>>I have flown with them off and also with them open. Didn't notice a >>>difference between the two. I should mention that these were the bubble >>>doors, not the stock doors. >>> >>>Darin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53691#53691 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:46 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors From: "darinh" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" Steve, The bubble doors are the only way to go on a Fox! They add about 3" of shoulder room on each side and they give incredible visibility. You can get them from John McBean at kitfoxaircraft.com or direct from lpaero.com. The shipping is not cheap (neither are the doors) so be prepared. I just ordered a pair for my Series 7 and the doors were $217 each and shipping was $87! They are worth it in my mind. Below is a picture of my model III (not mine anymore...sold it). Darin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53793#53793 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/l_front_4_181.jpg ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:00 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Just some theoritical thoughts on - no turtledeck: You stand the chance of turning the tail of your plane into a big windsock, depending on the security of your cargo compartment. You can add a lot of turbulence to the tail and reduce controlability. You would probably lose 10-15% of your lift. That would draw a lot of air thru the cockpit and put more pressure on the windscreen. It could be very windy inside. Don't think you would like it on purpose, but you could get home if it happened by mistake, long as it didn't jamb in the tail somewhere. Kurt S. --- Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > Wing nut, > > I fly my series 5/7 with doors open. But I do try > to limit speed to about 85 mph. > > There was a caution on the list a while back to NOT > fly without the turtle > deck. I don't have any experience with this, but > can believe that is not a good idea. > > Randy __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:21 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Flying without doors --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader And then Lloyd said: > ..."so I made an extension that would allow me to either latch the door completely closed or latch about 1/2" open, made for a nice breeze not to much." > Lloyd It crossed my mind that you could add a snap strap, or velcro strap to the bottom of the door and let it open only a few inches in flight, if you want. Whatever amount necessary for a nice breeze without it having to be all or nothing. Attach the strap to the door and the loose end to another spot up the door frame when not in use. Add a fastener to the front, bottom door sill or some other convienent place and attach the end of the strap there before you unlatch the door in flight. Let the strut hold it out against the strap. Now you've got big controllable vents without much weight or hardware! No broken door glass from cracked vent holes either. Thanks Lloyd :-) Kurt S. __________________________________________________