---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/14/06: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:44 AM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanks (Mark R Miller) 2. 11:21 AM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanks (Bob Unternaehrer) 3. 11:21 AM - sloshes (Bob Unternaehrer) 4. 12:17 PM - Spark Plug Wires (jeff puls) 5. 01:19 PM - Re: Little help with windshield please. (Jim Carriere) 6. 04:57 PM - Re: Spark Plug Wires (Paul) 7. 07:57 PM - Re: 912ULS - Oil in Exhaust (John Banes) 8. 08:48 PM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanks (WBL) 9. 09:42 PM - Re: small file Blank series V weight and balance (Mark Thompson) 10. 09:48 PM - thanks (Mark Thompson) 11. 09:50 PM - ENGINE MOUNT (Mark Thompson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:33 AM PST US From: "Mark R Miller" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark R Miller" Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Michel, Pro seal has been used in the BD-4 since the beginng (of the BD-4And 5) the fiberglass pannels of the BD-4 were very porris and weeped a lot. So Proseal was ued to seal the holes and bond the wing panels together. It is not a sloshing compound. It is very thick and is applied with a putty knife. It is also used today to seal the RV fuel tanks and many orther modern kit aircraft. Mak Miller > My only thought on that is that the military and airlines do not use > alcohol containing fuels, but jet-(something). I'm pretty sure I wouldn,t > want to be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol containing mo-gas. > I have already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't want to do it > again or make that twice if the Thiakol material doesn't work. > > ' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that there is a BD-4 > thread recommending the material in the metal wing conversion. I don't > know which fuel they use. > > Lowell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michel Verheughe" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:36 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe >> >> I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times but on the >> Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following: >> >> "The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and Military use a >> Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC." >> >> Then later, >> >> "I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and maintenance >> shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You might search on >> the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and the 2 is the pot >> life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F." >> >> Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing about that >> product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the informant, the spy, >> the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! :-) >> >> Cheers, >> Michel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:00 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" I just checked with PRC - Desoto who manufactures PR-1005-L and they didn't see any problem with it's resistance to Ethanol. I have used it to slosh some steel diesel fuel tanks and plan to slosh my fiberglass kit tanks with it. I'll first have to see if they have any Kreeme in them and get it out. Bob U. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark R Miller" Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark R Miller" > > Michel > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lowell Fitt" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:51 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > Michel, > > Pro seal has been used in the BD-4 since the beginng (of the BD-4And 5) the > fiberglass pannels of the BD-4 were very porris and weeped a lot. > So Proseal was ued to seal the holes and bond the wing panels together. > It is not a sloshing compound. > It is very thick and is applied with a putty knife. > It is also used today to seal the RV fuel tanks and many orther modern kit > aircraft. > > Mak Miller > > > > My only thought on that is that the military and airlines do not use > > alcohol containing fuels, but jet-(something). I'm pretty sure I wouldn,t > > want to be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol containing mo-gas. > > I have already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't want to do it > > again or make that twice if the Thiakol material doesn't work. > > > > ' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that there is a BD-4 > > thread recommending the material in the metal wing conversion. I don't > > know which fuel they use. > > > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michel Verheughe" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:36 PM > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > >> > >> I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times but on the > >> Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following: > >> > >> "The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and Military use a > >> Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC." > >> > >> Then later, > >> > >> "I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and maintenance > >> shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You might search on > >> the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and the 2 is the pot > >> life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F." > >> > >> Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing about that > >> product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the informant, the spy, > >> the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! :-) > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Michel > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:01 AM PST US From: "Bob Unternaehrer" Subject: Kitfox-List: sloshes Any one on the list had good or bad experiences with the Buna-N slosh coating #pr1005-L from ASP for the fiberglass tanks on the Mod IV. Also are ABS or metal tanks available or recommended. I want to replace the6 gallon tank at least on My Model IV and maybe both of them. Blue Skies Bob Unternaehrer shilocom@mcmsys.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:52 PM PST US From: "jeff puls" Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Wires I'm doing my annual inspection. It has been ten years since I have had my Classic IV certified. I'm replacing everything. I called Lockwood today and gave them the part number for new spark plug wires. They said they sell it by the MM. Anyone know how much to order? I have a 912UL. Thanks, Jeff Classic IV ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:44 PM PST US From: Jim Carriere Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Little help with windshield please. --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Carriere Here is more info from the windshield installation section of my Series 7 manual: The windshield (and skylight combo) uses AN526-832R10 machine screws, AN364 shear nuts (the strength of 365 nuts is not required) and plastic washers. There are 5 on each "A" pillar, 8 on each butt rib, and 10 on the skylight angle (the bracket that attaches to the rear spar carry-through). The windshield-glareshield interface uses 6 AN526-1032R8 screws, AN364 shear nuts, and AN960-10 (metal) washers. You start the holes in the windshield/skylight with a 1/8" acrylic bit and later enlarge them to 1/4" using a 1/4" acrylic bit. The holes in the fuselage are are started with a 1/8" metal bit. The holes in the "A" pillars and skylight angle are later enlarged to #21 (0.159", slightly larger than 5/32 but smaller than 11/64). The holes on the butt ribs are enlarged to #18 (0.1695" or slightly smaller than 11/64"). I thought the #18 was a misprint and only used #21 for all the fuselage holes. The holes in the glareshield are enlarged to 3/16". The manual says to drill the holes (1/8) in the fuselage first, then match-drill the windshield holes (1/8). I think that I chose to drill the windshield first and match-drilled the fuselage, but I honestly can't remember. All I wrote in my log was "worked on windshield." Once all of the holes are made you enlarge them to the appropriate size. Notes on drill bits: #21 bits are sometimes packaged together with a 1032 tap and available in some but not all hardware stores. I've read that acrylic can be drilled using normal bits in reverse, as these melt the plastic with the heat from friction. I don't have an opinion on this either way, I didn't try it because I had the "most correct" tools for the job (1/8" and 1/4" acrylic bits). Misc: The aluminum backing strip is .020" thick 2024T3, 1/4" wide and about 28" long. This is bonded underneath the butt rib top capstrip and reinforces it. It is superior to using washers alone to back the skylight attach screws. Interestingly, the holes in the door windows end up 5/32" and the quarter windows #21, but those windows are attached with 1/8" aluminum pop rivets, not 832 screws. They are also polycarbonate, not acrylic, so they apparently (?) do not require special drill bits. Hope this all helps... Jim in NW FL Series 7 in progress (just really slow progress!) __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:38 PM PST US From: "Paul" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Wires I am also looking for wire information. It appears that the original wire I have (the blue wires) have a metal shielding. The new wires do not have the shielding. I have the "big metal ignition box behind the instrument panel. I am concern with noise. Any help out there. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: jeff puls To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:17 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spark Plug Wires I'm doing my annual inspection. It has been ten years since I have had my Classic IV certified. I'm replacing everything. I called Lockwood today and gave them the part number for new spark plug wires. They said they sell it by the MM. Anyone know how much to order? I have a 912UL. Thanks, Jeff Classic IV ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ========================= ========== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:04 PM PST US From: "John Banes" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912ULS - Oil in Exhaust Thanks Jim, Kurt and David! John Do not archive _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Shumaker Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912ULS - Oil in Exhaust John The oil reservoir in the kitfox is above the engine. The oil siphons into the crankcase while sitting. Some oil also leaks past the rings and into the cylinder. Pulling the prop through by hand before starting prevented hydraulic lock but some oil made it to the exhaust manifold where it sputtered out the exhaust during start up. The oil turned to smoke as the engine warmed up. No smoke after that is a good sign. As Kurt said, a compression check is in order. Jim Shumaker > The engine had not been operated for 5 weeks. > Temperatures in the hangar > during this period were in excess of 100 deg F. It > was hand propped, > several revolutions, until the oil level in the > external reservoir was more > than half way up the dipstick. Since the battery > was low the initial start > was attempted with the choke full on. The engine > went through a couple of > revolutions and stopped when it tried to fire. The > next attempt ended with > a single backfire after two of three revolutions. > So the choke was closed > and the starter was engaged and the engine rotated > several times, just > enough for the oil pressure to register 70psig, but > it did not start. The > started was disengaged. Then the starter was > engaged with the choke on and > the engine fired and ran smoothly at 2000 RPM. > There was just a trace of > smoke. It did not seem to persist so it was > attributed to excess fuel from > the previous attempts to start the engine. The > engine idled and responded > to throttle inputs normally and taxiing was begun. > Two to three minutes > later there was a large amount of smoke coming out > of the exhaust and oil > started to collect on the left landing gear and lift > strut. The engine was > operated for another couple of minutes during the > return to the hangar. > Most of the mosquitoes had left the area by this > time. After a total of 5 > minutes of operation the smoke stopped. The > inspection after shutdown > revealed the oil level in the tank to be at the full > mark and the interior > of the exhaust pipe was coated with oil. > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:46 PM PST US From: WBL Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: WBL I have posted this in the past. I had a bad experience several ago whin I put autofuel in my KF-Classic 4, flew for an hour or more then put it in the hangar for a couple of weeks. When I returned from a business trip I went out to the hangar (at a public use airport) and discovered fuel dripping out the tail and beyond the hangar. All of the militar spec hoses had melted and were leaking! I have since replaced all of the mil spec hoses with sae hoses and have had no more problems. Many states are now mandating ethnol to replace MBTE. Be careful! KF-2KM -----Original Message----- >From: Mark R Miller >Sent: Aug 14, 2006 7:42 AM >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark R Miller" > >Michel >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lowell Fitt" >To: >Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:51 PM >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >> >> Michel, > >Pro seal has been used in the BD-4 since the beginng (of the BD-4And 5) the >fiberglass pannels of the BD-4 were very porris and weeped a lot. >So Proseal was ued to seal the holes and bond the wing panels together. >It is not a sloshing compound. >It is very thick and is applied with a putty knife. >It is also used today to seal the RV fuel tanks and many orther modern kit >aircraft. > >Mak Miller > > >> My only thought on that is that the military and airlines do not use >> alcohol containing fuels, but jet-(something). I'm pretty sure I wouldn,t >> want to be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol containing mo-gas. >> I have already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't want to do it >> again or make that twice if the Thiakol material doesn't work. >> >> ' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that there is a BD-4 >> thread recommending the material in the metal wing conversion. I don't >> know which fuel they use. >> >> Lowell >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michel Verheughe" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:36 PM >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >> >> >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe >>> >>> I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times but on the >>> Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following: >>> >>> "The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and Military use a >>> Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC." >>> >>> Then later, >>> >>> "I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and maintenance >>> shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You might search on >>> the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and the 2 is the pot >>> life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F." >>> >>> Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing about that >>> product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the informant, the spy, >>> the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michel >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:02 PM PST US From: "Mark Thompson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance Thanks John for the pics of the gap seals,this is the way I need to go.......Did you get this from spruce? Thanks Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: John Anderson Sent: 8/12/2006 7:51:33 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance I find that gap seals make quite a improvement. From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" I think we had a similar discussion a while back. Try closing the gaps on the elevator with clear tape, as seen on the Sportflight pics. While I can't confirm a huge change on mine, others swear by it for getting elevator effectiveness. I noticed an improvement, but nothing radical. Also, a forward CG is a classic scenario of running out of elevator at low speeds (in the flare). As the CG moves aft, the elevator gets move authority, but it also gets more sensitive to small inputs at higher speeds. Eventually it will get uncontrollable. Forward is better than aft, but you'd be relegated to wheel landings. Airplanes have loading limits, i.e., limited fuel with two passengers, etc. You might want to check your W&B and see how different loadings affect you. If you've not looked at it that way, you might be surprised. My 2 runs out of elevator really quick with flap landings, but the gap seals helped a little. Going from memory, a test I read showed that even a small gap in a control surface reduces control effectiveness by as much as 30%. Hi pressure always seeks low pressure, and it flows very nicely through that gap. Thereby that air leak is not working for you. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Thompson Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark Thompson" Hi Kurt,I am also having a hard time with full elevator control for a stal landing,I am landing with no flaps and seem to flair high and then drop...no bounces yet lol...,I am flying with 2 200lb pilots and 26gal fuel so I know Im heavy,but can we get more elevator authority? Thanks for your input.........Kitfox4..N61AC Mark. > [Original Message] > From: kurt schrader > To: > Date: 8/8/2006 9:27:31 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: small file Blank series V weight and balance > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > I can confirm it is true on my S-5 for over 50% flaps > and FWD CG. I run out of trim at around 60 knots and > no flaps. Still can get enough elevator until 1/2 > flaps. After that it is difficult to get the tail > down with FWD CG. Just never saw it in a note before. > > Kurt S. > > --- AMuller589@aol.com wrote: > > > Attached is subject page from SERIES V POH page 2-4. > > I found a way to reduce > > it from 2.4mb to 266.4KB. Hope I can figure a way to > > repeat it for future > > X-MSN. > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > > > > What was the source of the note? First I have seen > > that. > > > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > > > --- AMuller589@aol.com wrote: > > > > ...... An associated note said > > > > > > " NOTE: it is recommended that flap deflection be > > > limited to (unspecified) > > > notch on Series V tail draggers when operating at > > CG > > > stations forward of 11.70 > > > inch. The aircraft may not be able to achieve a > > > three point attitude upon > > > landing at extreme forward CG stations with full > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:21 PM PST US From: "Mark Thompson" Subject: Kitfox-List: thanks I would like to thank all you guys for your help and support to my questions,this is an awsome group and we all are trying to achieve the same goals......fly......... Thanks...Mark N61AC Mark Thompson kr2@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:36 PM PST US From: "Mark Thompson" Subject: Kitfox-List: ENGINE MOUNT Hey Jimmie when are you going to send me that engine mount for tig welding? Mark...N61AC Mark Thompson kr2@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You.