---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/16/06: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:12 AM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (Barry West) 2. 04:54 AM - Re: GPS Units (Mike Chaney) 3. 07:23 AM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (Dan Billingsley) 4. 07:39 AM - Michigan Kitfoxers (Fox5flyer) 5. 07:47 AM - Kitfox wanted (Algate) 6. 07:47 AM - Kitfox List (Algate) 7. 07:53 AM - Message Repeats (Lowell Fitt) 8. 08:18 AM - Re: Message Repeats (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 9. 08:23 AM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanksEthanol and wing tanks (Michael Gibbs) 10. 08:26 AM - Re: Message Repeats (Fox5flyer) 11. 08:27 AM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanks (PWilson) 12. 08:27 AM - Re: GPS Units (PWilson) 13. 08:27 AM - Re: Ethanol and wing tanks (PWilson) 14. 08:27 AM - Re: Michigan Kitfoxers (Fred Shiple) 15. 08:30 AM - Re: Kitfox List (Fox5flyer) 16. 08:32 AM - Re: Message Repeats (Don Smythe) 17. 09:21 AM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (wwillyard@aol.com) 18. 09:27 AM - Re: Kitfox List (Algate) 19. 09:30 AM - Re: Message Repeats (Michel Verheughe) 20. 09:45 AM - Re: Kitfox wanted (spudnuts) 21. 09:56 AM - Re: Kitfox wanted (spudnuts) 22. 09:58 AM - renewed lister (John Oakley) 23. 10:50 AM - Re: renewed lister (Lowell Fitt) 24. 10:57 AM - Re: GPS Units (Marco Menezes) 25. 11:48 AM - Re: renewed lister (jdmcbean) 26. 12:04 PM - Re: renewed lister (John Oakley) 27. 12:58 PM - Re: Message Repeats (PWilson) 28. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks (PWilson) 29. 02:19 PM - Colorado fly-in this weekend (brentbidus@juno.com) 30. 02:25 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (John Galt) 31. 02:38 PM - Re: Message Repeats (clemwehner) 32. 02:47 PM - Re: Engine quitting (QSS) 33. 03:13 PM - Message Repeats (Jimmie Blackwell) 34. 03:23 PM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (jdmcbean) 35. 04:13 PM - Re: Kitfox-List GPS Units (Jim Carriere) 36. 08:07 PM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (david yeamans) 37. 08:25 PM - Re: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation (Grant Fluent) 38. 09:59 PM - Re: Classic IV for sale (Marwynne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:12:15 AM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation Terry, I also have a Model IV with the 912 ULS engine. I really don't know if the oil line is in contact with the cowling but I will check it. Anyway, if it is in contact it has been that way for 5 years and over 400 hours without a problem or any indication of wear. I will let you know after I check it. Barry West ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Hughes To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:56 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a Kitfox IV and I am having a problem with lack of clearance between the top cowl piece and the top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). Actually, clearance isn't the right word here -- my oil line is actually lightly touching the underside of the top cowl piece. I'm using the Skystar-modified elbow fitting (thanks to John McBean) but that still isn't providing enough clearance. Although the fitting itself fits under the cowl, once the oil hose is attached and clamped all clearance between the oil hose and cowl is gone. Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do? I see several solutions, but so far I don't like any of them (or can't make them work). One, try to find a "lower profile" fitting for the OUT oil line. I've been looking, but so far no joy. Two, try to bend the existing elbow beyond 90 degrees, which might get the oil hose low enough to clear the cowl. Three, try to lower the oil tank. At best, I think I could lower it maybe a 1/4 of an inch, which I don't think would be enough. Four, cut a hole in the top cowl and fabricate a little "power bulge" to provide adequate oil line clearance. This seems to be the most drastic approach, particularly given my meager fiberglass-working skills, but it also gives the most clearance. Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Terry Hughes ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:14 AM PST US From: Mike Chaney Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Units I purchased the Garman Etrex Legand and although I have only used it once it really does a nice job. This is not an aviation unit but I really just wanted a unit to give me point A to point B. This unit does quite a bit. It has a map, which is updatable, listing citys, towns, and even unincorporated towns. The screens are able to be customized with the info you would want displayed. For $150 it was a good fit for me. Mike Chaney -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marwynne Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:32 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Units I have a 2000c . It works great. Marwynne Hilltop Lakes Texas I am considering purchasing a Lowrance 2000c GPS unit. Steve Wilson ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- This message has been scanned for Viruses and cleared by MailMarshal at SWOCA. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:21 AM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation This may sound like a drastic measure, however a few guys have done this in the Phoenix area and it works great... make the oil tank shorter. Dan B KF-IV Barry West wrote: Terry, I also have a Model IV with the 912 ULS engine. I really don't know if the oil line is in contact with the cowling but I will check it. Anyway, if it is in contact it has been that way for 5 years and over 400 hours without a problem or any indication of wear. I will let you know after I check it. Barry West ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Hughes To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:56 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a Kitfox IV and I am having a problem with lack of clearance between the top cowl piece and the top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). Actually, clearance isn't the right word here -- my oil line is actually lightly touching the underside of the top cowl piece. I'm using the Skystar-modified elbow fitting (thanks to John McBean) but that still isn't providing enough clearance. Although the fitting itself fits under the cowl, once the oil hose is attached and clamped all clearance between the oil hose and cowl is gone. Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do? I see several solutions, but so far I don't like any of them (or can't make them work). One, try to find a "lower profile" fitting for the OUT oil line. I've been looking, but so far no joy. Two, try to bend the existing elbow beyond 90 degrees, which might get the oil hose low enough to clear the cowl. Three, try to lower the oil tank. At best, I think I could lower it maybe a 1/4 of an inch, which I don't think would be enough. Four, cut a hole in the top cowl and fabricate a little "power bulge" to provide adequate oil line clearance. This seems to be the most drastic approach, particularly given my meager fiberglass-working skills, but it also gives the most clearance. Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Terry Hughes ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:10 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Michigan Kitfoxers Hey folks. I have the list of Michigan Kitfoxers compiled, but I still need a little bit of info from those listed below. Anybody else who would like to be added to the list, please add your name and information to this message and reply to me. This isn't necessarily limited to Michigan residents. Nearby is fine too. Information needed (everything is optional) name phone number address email address type aircraft and info regarding state of completion, flying, hours, engine, prop, etc anything else you'd like to add John Pery (Kansas) Fred Shiple Toledo Ohio Lynn Matteson As I stated previously, none of this information will be used for any nefarious purposes to include, advertising, marketing, list sales, spam of any kind, or anything that I wouldn't want my own name to be used for. Once it's complete I'll send it out to the people who are on the list so that we all know who we are, where we are, and can, if needed, have our collective selves nearby to help with any building, flying, maintenance issues that might arise. Maybe we can even organize some sort of flight somewhere. Thanks, Deke Morisse Mikado (NE near Alpena) MI S5 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:20 AM PST US From: "Algate" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox wanted I have a friend looking for a Model 4 with 582 in low $20's if anybody knows of anything please let me know Gary Algate _____ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:52 AM PST US From: "Algate" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Deke Did you get my email re setting up George Briggs on the list. Regards Gary Algate ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:08 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. It has actually become quite painful. Lowell ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:19 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats Not happening to me. John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Lowell Fitt" > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and > often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on > kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. It > has actually become quite painful. > > Lowell > > > > >
Not happening to me.
 
John Kerr
 
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________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:02 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol and wing tanksEthanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs Bob sez: >There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it the same >way autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane. Autogas and avgas octanes are not calculated the same way. Avgas octane is measured using the "MON" method, while auto fuels (in the U.S. anyway) are typically measured using the (R+M/2) method (see below). Since octane rating represents a ratio, it cannot exceed 100. Values for octane over 100 are really what are called "performance ratings". Paul sez: >An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower that an >optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane. There may be some rules of thumb for common fuels, but technically, octane rating has no direct correlation with engine power or efficiency. "Octane" is a measure of the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition and knocking. The Research Octane Number (RON) is determined by running the fuel through a specific test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane. The Motor Octane Number (MON) or the aviation lean octane rating, is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON. In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in the United States and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 10 point difference noted above, this means that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-95 (regular) in Europe. To learn more than you ever wanted to know about aviation fuel octane, check out or . Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:56 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" It's not happening here at my end Lowell. Everything is normal. If it continues, let me know and I'll see if Matt has been having any other complaints about it. Deke List Janitor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and > often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on > kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. It > has actually become quite painful. > > Lowell > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:16 AM PST US From: PWilson Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson Of course VW has sold a 1.9L 90 - 100Hp turbo diesel for many years. I have no idea about its weight, but it is a pretty compact unit. One can chip the engine for even more power. Probably its use in a plane would not include the intercooler and the power would be in the range you want and it would be somewhat lighter. Have you looked at the rotary diesel in that power range? Probably lighter than the VW? They have been showing it a Osh for several years. I have no idea about its status. Having said that there was a Kitfox with a rotary in it several years back at Osh. Don't know if it was the diesel? The HDPE tank design was completed before the Skystar demise. I hope John Mc et al can resurrect the design and get it into production. Time will tell. Paul =============== At 08:13 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > >I think you will find the gas station tanks are not epoxy. But HDPE. >Sloshing compounds seem to eventually come off.... Better to not use >ethanol fuel or replace the tank with a pre-moulded HDPE like the five >gallon "Jerry" cans are made of. > >I can't wait until I can put all this behind me..... Someone please design >a nice 70-80 hp turbo diesel! > >Noel > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:04 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson > > > > Other than the issue of fuel system compatibility, the alk does have > > higher octane, but when used in a low compression engine that octane > > goes to waste and the engine produces less horsepower that it would > > if run on gas. This is true with all ratios of Alky/gas - the octane > > goes up. An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower > > that an optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane. However the > > alky engine will deliver less fuel economy since the energy per > > gallon is less. Of course e85 is pretty rare outside of the mid > > states. At the 10% level it does not matter much, it just screws up > > the systems not designed for the stuff. > > Don't forget that for several years the Kitfox has been sold with > > Alky compatible wing tanks using the proper epoxy resin. Which is the > > same resin used in the gas station tanks. To make your Kitfox live > > with alky and not have to use the sloshing liquids. Just buy the new > > tanks. I am sure John McBean sells them. > > > > Maybe Bob Unternaehrer was talking about premix of the 50:1 2 stroke > > oil. which probably does reduce the fuel performance since it is not > > generally known as an engine fuel. > > Regards, Paul > > ===================== > > > > At 12:41 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" > > > > > > > ><<< > it lowers octane > > >rating of the fuel>>> > > > > > > > > >There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it > > the same way > > >autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane. It > > does other > > >things, but it doesn't lower the octane. Pure Ethanol in > > Mo. is currently > > >in the $2.20 range. 85% ethanol is around $2.50,,,go figure > > that and 87 > > >octane autogas is a few cents either side of $3.00. What > > are you paying for > > >you're auto gas or 100LL in your state. You can check with > > So. Dakota U to > > >verify the above. They gave the sminar at OSH and it's on their web > > >site.Bob U. > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Noel Loveys" > > >To: > > >Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:44 AM > > >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" > > > > > > > > > > I'm another one who hates to keep harping on the dangers > > of ethanol in > > > > fibreglass tanks. The worst part of the whole deal is > > that on this > > > > continent ethanol is neither green or economical unless > > you can rate it in > > > > votes per gallon. > > > > > > > > Thee is a fellow flying an Avid on the avid group who was > > flying in > > > > California where they have 10% ethanol. He said he > > didn't have any > > >problems > > > > but he was premixing his fuel. Recently he swapped out > > his trusty R582 > > >for > > > > a brand spankin' new Jab 2200. He is using a bit of "Top > > Lube" premixed > > > > into his tanks with good results so far. > > > > > > > > There is a bit of a problem with premixing. Apparently > > it lowers octane > > > > rating of the fuel. > > > > > > > > BTW the only good thing about ethanol is it does increase > > the octane > > >rating > > > > of gasoline. (oct110) > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WBL > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:18 AM > > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com; kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: WBL > > > > > > > > > > I have posted this in the past. I had a bad experience > > > > > several ago whin I put autofuel in my KF-Classic 4, flew for > > > > > an hour or more then put it in the hangar for a couple of > > > > > weeks. When I returned from a business trip I went out to > > > > > the hangar (at a public use airport) and discovered fuel > > > > > dripping out the tail and beyond the hangar. All of the > > > > > militar spec hoses had melted and were leaking! I have since > > > > > replaced all of the mil spec hoses with sae hoses and have > > > > > had no more problems. Many states are now mandating ethnol > > > > > to replace MBTE. Be careful! KF-2KM > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > >From: Mark R Miller > > > > > >Sent: Aug 14, 2006 7:42 AM > > > > > >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > > > > > > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark R Miller" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Michel > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > >To: > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:51 PM > > > > > >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Michel, > > > > > > > > > > > >Pro seal has been used in the BD-4 since the beginng (of the > > > > > BD-4And 5) the > > > > > >fiberglass pannels of the BD-4 were very porris and > > weeped a lot. > > > > > >So Proseal was ued to seal the holes and bond the wing > > > > > panels together. > > > > > >It is not a sloshing compound. > > > > > >It is very thick and is applied with a putty knife. > > > > > >It is also used today to seal the RV fuel tanks and many > > > > > orther modern kit > > > > > >aircraft. > > > > > > > > > > > >Mak Miller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> My only thought on that is that the military and airlines > > > > > do not use > > > > > >> alcohol containing fuels, but jet-(something). I'm pretty > > > > > sure I wouldn,t > > > > > >> want to be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol > > > > > containing mo-gas. > > > > > >> I have already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't > > > > > want to do it > > > > > >> again or make that twice if the Thiakol material > > doesn't work. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> ' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that > > > > > there is a BD-4 > > > > > >> thread recommending the material in the metal wing > > > > > conversion. I don't > > > > > >> know which fuel they use. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Lowell > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >> From: "Michel Verheughe" > > > > > >> To: > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:36 PM > > > > > >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times > > > > > but on the > > > > > >>> Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> "The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and > > > > > Military use a > > > > > >>> Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC." > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Then later, > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> "I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and > > > > > maintenance > > > > > >>> shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You > > > > > might search on > > > > > >>> the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and > > > > > the 2 is the pot > > > > > >>> life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F." > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing > > > > > about that > > > > > >>> product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the > > > > > informant, the spy, > > > > > >>> the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! :-) > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Cheers, > > > > > >>> Michel > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:18 AM PST US From: PWilson Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Units Hi, I have a L 4900M in my car and I find that the MapCreate 6 software to be pretty obsolete in so far and depicting the roads. It is also very inaccurate with regard to the topo data with thousands of feet error on many summits as compared to the USGS maps. My question is about the Lowrance database for aircraft. Do you find it to be accurate or is it cut rate like the auto version. Thanks, Paul =================== At 11:31 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: >I have a 2000c . It works great. I havn't had it but a short time >and is easy to learn. Lots of things it will do. The big >difference that I see is the quality of the drawing is not as sharp >as the Garmin. If I had to do it again I would buy the 2000c. A >lot less expensive and leaves a little more money for other toys. > > >If you get it let us know what you think. > >Marwynne >Hilltop Lakes Texas >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Wilson >Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 11:03 PM >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Kitfox-List: GPS Units > >I am considering purchasing a Lowrance 2000c GPS unit. Does anyone >have one or have experience with one. Also, is there another unit >that you like. I will be using it in my plane, but also in my >truck. The Garmin price tag is more than I am willing to pay at this time. >Steve Wilson > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:19 AM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson Yup, not epoxy, but Atlac PW ============= At 09:26 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > >I don't know about up there, but down here the gas station tanks are >vinyl ester resin. And this is the resin used in the newer Skystar tanks. > >Lowell >----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:13 PM >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks > > >>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >> >>I think you will find the gas station tanks are not epoxy. But HDPE. >>Sloshing compounds seem to eventually come off.... Better to not use >>ethanol fuel or replace the tank with a pre-moulded HDPE like the five >>gallon "Jerry" cans are made of. >> >>I can't wait until I can put all this behind me..... Someone please design >>a nice 70-80 hp turbo diesel! >> >>Noel >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson >>>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:04 PM >>>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> >>> >>>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson >>> >>>Other than the issue of fuel system compatibility, the alk does have >>>higher octane, but when used in a low compression engine that octane >>>goes to waste and the engine produces less horsepower that it would >>>if run on gas. This is true with all ratios of Alky/gas - the octane >>>goes up. An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower >>>that an optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane. However the >>>alky engine will deliver less fuel economy since the energy per >>>gallon is less. Of course e85 is pretty rare outside of the mid >>>states. At the 10% level it does not matter much, it just screws up >>>the systems not designed for the stuff. >>>Don't forget that for several years the Kitfox has been sold with >>>Alky compatible wing tanks using the proper epoxy resin. Which is the >>>same resin used in the gas station tanks. To make your Kitfox live >>>with alky and not have to use the sloshing liquids. Just buy the new >>>tanks. I am sure John McBean sells them. >>> >>>Maybe Bob Unternaehrer was talking about premix of the 50:1 2 stroke >>>oil. which probably does reduce the fuel performance since it is not >>>generally known as an engine fuel. >>>Regards, Paul >>>===================== >>> >>>At 12:41 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: >>> >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" >>> >>> > >>> ><<<>>it lowers octane >>> >rating of the fuel>>> >>> > >>> > >>> >There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it >>>the same way >>> >autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane. It >>>does other >>> >things, but it doesn't lower the octane. Pure Ethanol in >>>Mo. is currently >>> >in the $2.20 range. 85% ethanol is around $2.50,,,go figure >>>that and 87 >>> >octane autogas is a few cents either side of $3.00. What >>>are you paying for >>> >you're auto gas or 100LL in your state. You can check with >>>So. Dakota U to >>> >verify the above. They gave the sminar at OSH and it's on their web >>> >site.Bob U. >>> > >>> >----- Original Message ----- >>> >From: "Noel Loveys" >>> >To: >>> >Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:44 AM >>> >Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> > >>> > >>> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" >>> >>> > > >>> > > I'm another one who hates to keep harping on the dangers >>>of ethanol in >>> > > fibreglass tanks. The worst part of the whole deal is >>>that on this >>> > > continent ethanol is neither green or economical unless >>>you can rate it in >>> > > votes per gallon. >>> > > >>> > > Thee is a fellow flying an Avid on the avid group who was >>>flying in >>> > > California where they have 10% ethanol. He said he >>>didn't have any >>> >problems >>> > > but he was premixing his fuel. Recently he swapped out >>>his trusty R582 >>> >for >>> > > a brand spankin' new Jab 2200. He is using a bit of "Top >>>Lube" premixed >>> > > into his tanks with good results so far. >>> > > >>> > > There is a bit of a problem with premixing. Apparently >>>it lowers octane >>> > > rating of the fuel. >>> > > >>> > > BTW the only good thing about ethanol is it does increase >>>the octane >>> >rating >>> > > of gasoline. (oct110) >>> > > >>> > > Noel >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >>> > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WBL >>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:18 AM >>> > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com; kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: WBL >>> > > > >>> > > > I have posted this in the past. I had a bad experience >>> > > > several ago whin I put autofuel in my KF-Classic 4, flew for >>> > > > an hour or more then put it in the hangar for a couple of >>> > > > weeks. When I returned from a business trip I went out to >>> > > > the hangar (at a public use airport) and discovered fuel >>> > > > dripping out the tail and beyond the hangar. All of the >>> > > > militar spec hoses had melted and were leaking! I have since >>> > > > replaced all of the mil spec hoses with sae hoses and have >>> > > > had no more problems. Many states are now mandating ethnol >>> > > > to replace MBTE. Be careful! KF-2KM >>> > > > >>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>> > > > >From: Mark R Miller >>> > > > >Sent: Aug 14, 2006 7:42 AM >>> > > > >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >>> > > > >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> > > > > >>> > > > >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Mark R Miller" >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >Michel >>> > > > >----- Original Message ----- >>> > > > >From: "Lowell Fitt" >>> > > > >To: >>> > > > >Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:51 PM >>> > > > >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" >>> > > > >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> Michel, >>> > > > > >>> > > > >Pro seal has been used in the BD-4 since the beginng (of the >>> > > > BD-4And 5) the >>> > > > >fiberglass pannels of the BD-4 were very porris and >>>weeped a lot. >>> > > > >So Proseal was ued to seal the holes and bond the wing >>> > > > panels together. >>> > > > >It is not a sloshing compound. >>> > > > >It is very thick and is applied with a putty knife. >>> > > > >It is also used today to seal the RV fuel tanks and many >>> > > > orther modern kit >>> > > > >aircraft. >>> > > > > >>> > > > >Mak Miller >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >> My only thought on that is that the military and airlines >>> > > > do not use >>> > > > >> alcohol containing fuels, but jet-(something). I'm pretty >>> > > > sure I wouldn,t >>> > > > >> want to be the Beta tester for the group using alcohol >>> > > > containing mo-gas. >>> > > > >> I have already sloshed one completed wing tank and don't >>> > > > want to do it >>> > > > >> again or make that twice if the Thiakol material >>>doesn't work. >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> ' though, I did a quick search on Google and found that >>> > > > there is a BD-4 >>> > > > >> thread recommending the material in the metal wing >>> > > > conversion. I don't >>> > > > >> know which fuel they use. >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> Lowell >>> > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> > > > >> From: "Michel Verheughe" >>> > > > >> To: >>> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 2:36 PM >>> > > > >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Ethanol and wing tanks >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >>> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> I know, I know, we have already discussed that many times >>> > > > but on the >>> > > > >>> Jabiru list, there is a Bill Evans who writes the following: >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> "The fuel tank problem can be solved. The airlines and >>> > > > Military use a >>> > > > >>> Thiokol Rubber sealant generally known as PRC." >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> Then later, >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> "I can buy PRC here from the local aircraft service and >>> > > > maintenance >>> > > > >>> shops. I believe it is manufactured by Pro-Seal now. You >>> > > > might search on >>> > > > >>> the part number PRC-1422 A2 The A is the thin stuff and >>> > > > the 2 is the pot >>> > > > >>> life. Full cure is probably 8 hours at 70F." >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> Just to let you know, guys. I don't know the first thing >>> > > > about that >>> > > > >>> product, I am only the go-between, the messenger, the >>> > > > informant, the spy, >>> > > > >>> the turncoat, the ... ok, I'll shut up! :-) >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> Cheers, >>> > > > >>> Michel >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >>> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:24 AM PST US From: Fred Shiple Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Michigan Kitfoxers Fred Shiple 2524 Inlands Ct. Toledo OH 43615 419.536.6099 fredshiple@sbcglobal.net Kitfox S6/912S, Amphib floats, In-cockpit adjustable prop (swapping to IVO in fall 2006). 140 hrs. Hope plane spends part of year on Burt Lake now that it's on floats. Hey folks. I have the list of Michigan Kitfoxers compiled, but I still need a little bit of info from those listed below. Anybody else who would like to be added to the list, please add your name ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:39 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Sure did Gary and I set him up immediately. You obviously didn't get my confirmation? If he's not receiving any messages, please let me know. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Algate To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Deke Did you get my email re setting up George Briggs on the list. Regards Gary Algate ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:59 AM PST US From: "Don Smythe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" Lowell, Not happening on this end... Don Smythe Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and > often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on > kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. > It has actually become quite painful. > > Lowell > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:11 AM PST US From: wwillyard@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation I relocated the drain connection on my tank towards the firewall to incorporate a quick drain (before they were available for Rotax). This allowed me to lower the tank enough that I can use the cap supplied by Rotax rather than the SkyStar version. Makes oil changes much easier as a result. Bill W. Classic IV 912ul I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a Kitfox IV and I am having a problem with lack of clearance between the top cowl piece and the top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:02 AM PST US From: "Algate" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Thanks Deke I will contact George to confirm Regards Gary _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fox5flyer Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Sure did Gary and I set him up immediately. You obviously didn't get my confirmation? If he's not receiving any messages, please let me know. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: Algate Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Deke Did you get my email re setting up George Briggs on the list. Regards Gary Algate ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:10 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe On Aug 16, 2006, at 4:51 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages It is not happening to me at this very moment, Lowell. But it has happened, although not that many copies, and it certainly will, in the future. Why? I don't know, the cyberspace is a strange place with a lot of things happening and I am not sure I want to know about it. Yesterday, I wrote an email to a Swedish Kitfox wannabe pilot and it bounced back. I then used the phone to call him. Since he is a computer engineer, he explained to me that my address was registered on a blacklist as a spammer. Now, I have been called a lot of things in my life, but never a spammer! It turns out that I am on the internet, with the same address, since 1994 and that, at the time I had a homepage with my email address embedded in the HTML codes. Spammers send "robots" on the internet, to copy anything that is separated by a "@" sign and use that as phoney return addresses for their shameful business. ... Man, I am getting too old for this stuff. Where do I sign to retire? :-) Cheers, Michel do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox wanted From: "spudnuts" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "spudnuts" Check out barnstormers.com, there is a really sweet one in NY for 18K Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=55198#55198 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:34 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox wanted From: "spudnuts" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "spudnuts" Also, I'm still looking for a kitfox 5 or later. 704LS was sold before I could go take a look at her. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=55202#55202 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:15 AM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" Hi Guys, I have renewed my ears onto the list. Having been on the list since the beginning I have been off for the last eight months or so and dearly missed the chatter. I sold my hobby shop, my house and started a new business, importing lipoly batteries, and other supplies for rc hobby people on line. I sure am happy to be back. John Oakley Model 4 speedster Idaho Over 1000 hr in kitfox's ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:33 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" John, The Idaho back country group is planning on being at Caldwell sometime early afternoon tomorrow and then on to Smiley Creek for the night. Eventually we want to get to Cavanaugh Bay and then maybe in to Canada for a short visit. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Oakley" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: renewed lister > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" > > Hi Guys, > I have renewed my ears onto the list. Having been on the list since the > beginning I have been off for the last eight months or so and dearly > missed > the chatter. I sold my hobby shop, my house and started a new business, > importing lipoly batteries, and other supplies for rc hobby people on > line. > I sure am happy to be back. > > John Oakley > Model 4 speedster > Idaho > Over 1000 hr in kitfox's > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:33 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: GPS Units I believe Lowrance uses the Jeppsen data base under license. If you keep it current, it's great. PWilson wrote: Hi, I have a L 4900M in my car and I find that the MapCreate 6 software to be pretty obsolete in so far and depicting the roads. It is also very inaccurate with regard to the topo data with thousands of feet error on many summits as compared to the USGS maps. My question is about the Lowrance database for aircraft. Do you find it to be accurate or is it cut rate like the auto version. Thanks, Paul =================== At 11:31 PM 8/15/2006, you wrote: I have a 2000c . It works great. I havn't had it but a short time and is easy to learn. Lots of things it will do. The big difference that I see is the quality of the drawing is not as sharp as the Garmin. If I had to do it again I would buy the 2000c. A lot less expensive and leaves a little more money for other toys. If you get it let us know what you think. Marwynne Hilltop Lakes Texas -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Wilson Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 11:03 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: GPS Units I am considering purchasing a Lowrance 2000c GPS unit. Does anyone have one or have experience with one. Also, is there another unit that you like. I will be using it in my plane, but also in my truck. The Garmin price tag is more than I am willing to pay at this time. Steve Wilson Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:44 AM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "jdmcbean" Look forward to seeing you Lowell... Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" John, The Idaho back country group is planning on being at Caldwell sometime early afternoon tomorrow and then on to Smiley Creek for the night. Eventually we want to get to Cavanaugh Bay and then maybe in to Canada for a short visit. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Oakley" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: renewed lister > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" > > Hi Guys, > I have renewed my ears onto the list. Having been on the list since the > beginning I have been off for the last eight months or so and dearly > missed > the chatter. I sold my hobby shop, my house and started a new business, > importing lipoly batteries, and other supplies for rc hobby people on > line. > I sure am happy to be back. > > John Oakley > Model 4 speedster > Idaho > Over 1000 hr in kitfox's > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:02 PM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" Lowell, Oh, sure I leave the list for a few minutes and you plan a trip with out me. :-) I am prepping for a trip in there, I will try to listen in and find where you guy s are. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: renewed lister --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" John, The Idaho back country group is planning on being at Caldwell sometime early afternoon tomorrow and then on to Smiley Creek for the night. Eventually we want to get to Cavanaugh Bay and then maybe in to Canada for a short visit. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Oakley" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: renewed lister > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" > > Hi Guys, > I have renewed my ears onto the list. Having been on the list since the > beginning I have been off for the last eight months or so and dearly > missed > the chatter. I sold my hobby shop, my house and started a new business, > importing lipoly batteries, and other supplies for rc hobby people on > line. > I sure am happy to be back. > > John Oakley > Model 4 speedster > Idaho > Over 1000 hr in kitfox's > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:22 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson Lowell, Complain to your provider. My provider had a similar issue in the past, but has fixed the problem. Paul ===================== At 09:26 AM 8/16/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > >It's not happening here at my end Lowell. Everything is normal. If it >continues, let me know and I'll see if Matt has been having any other >complaints about it. >Deke >List Janitor > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lowell Fitt" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:51 AM >Subject: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and > > often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on > > kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. >It > > has actually become quite painful. > > > > Lowell > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:22 PM PST US From: PWilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol and wing tanks Ethanol and wing tanks Mike G., Kind of off subject which was alcohol in the fiberglass fuel tanks. Reading on---- I have to explain. When I said: "An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower that an optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane." It is a fact that an alky specific engines are always designed to have a higher compression ratio (CR) than the typical gas engine. And this is allowed because of the higher octane. There is a direct relationship between CR and efficiency and horsepower. Higher is better. By the same token if you put alky (any percentage) in an engine designed for gas it will have less horsepower because the engine is not taking advantage of the higher octane AND less fuel economy due to less energy per gallon. With the engine designed with a CR for alky and you find some high octane gasoline that has the same octane as the alky then the power will be the same/similar but when using alky that engine will have poorer fuel economy compared to the high test gasoline. This is all academic because the engines now being produced in the US are not properly designed for any percentage of alcohol. The result is lower power and lower fuel economy compared to using gas which is the design point. The engines are designed of the lowest octane that the manufacturer expects to be used. Note: In the US gasoline is posted as (R+M)/2 even though the short cut way to write it is R+M/2. Trivia to be sure. You said: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-95 (regular) in Europe." I thought there was a constant relationship between (R+M)/2 and M but I was wrong. I just looked up some racing fuels and found one with 110M, 112R, 111 (R+M)/2 and another that was 91M, 103R, 97 (R+M)/2. Lots of chemistry in these fuels that prevents us from relating the (R+M)/2 to M. You said: "Autogas and avgas octanes are not calculated the same way. Avgas octane is measured using the "MON" method, while auto fuels (in the U.S. anyway) are typically measured using the (R+M/2) method (see below). Since octane rating represents a ratio, it cannot exceed 100. Values for octane over 100 are really what are called "performance ratings". Please don't believe everything you read on the Internet. This contradicts what I know about the subject. The fuel companies actually do the testing to measure the octane. Yes, it is a ratio but there is no rule that says the value cannot be better than the reference. I did not take the time to look up Ethanol but I am sure it is above 100M. Here is some trivia for you all : Reno style air race fuel is 120.3M leaded using the ASTM test method. Good stuff for the high CR engines and explains the high speeds achieved with these high power engines. This compares with something like 80-83M at your local gas station 87(R+M)/2. Comments below Regards, Paul ============================== At 09:22 AM 8/16/2006, you wrote: >--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs > >Bob sez: > >>There are many ways to calculate "octane", but if you do it the >>same way autogas and 100LL are done, Ethanol is over 100 octane. > >Autogas and avgas octanes are not calculated the same way. Avgas >octane is measured using the "MON" method, while auto fuels (in the >U.S. anyway) are typically measured using the (R+M/2) method (see >below). Since octane rating represents a ratio, it cannot exceed >100. Values for octane over 100 are really what are called >"performance ratings". > >Paul sez: > >>An alky engine properly designed will have more horsepower that an >>optimally tuned gas engine due to higher octane. > >There may be some rules of thumb for common fuels, but technically, >octane rating has no direct correlation with engine power or efficiency. > >"Octane" is a measure of the fuel's resistance to pre-ignition and >knocking. The Research Octane Number (RON) is determined by running >the fuel through a specific test engine with a variable compression >ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing these results with >those for mixtures of isooctane and n-heptane. > >The Motor Octane Number (MON) or the aviation lean octane rating, is >a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load. MON >testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but >with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable >ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. You are correct, M method is the best measure of octane. M stands for Motor >Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern >gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally >fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON. I noted in my research that your 8 to 10 is not a good predictor. But, I have read that 4-5 is a good difference for Europe vs NA between (R+M)/2 and M. So I guess that the 91 that Rotax specifies is 87 at sea level here in the US? Any comment on that? >In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the >"headline" octane that would be shown on the pump is the RON, but in >the United States and some other countries the headline number is >the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock >Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or >(R+M)/2. Because of the 10 point difference noted above, this means >that the octane in the United States will be about 4 to 5 points >lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" >gasoline in the US and Canada, would be 91-95 (regular) in Europe. > >To learn more than you ever wanted to know about aviation fuel >octane, check out > >or . > >Mike G. >N728KF ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:46 PM PST US From: "brentbidus@juno.com" Subject: Kitfox-List: Colorado fly-in this weekend EAA Chapter 72 will be hosting a fly-in at Meadowlake Airport NE of Colo rado Springs Friday and Saturday. It would sure be nice to see a few Ki tfoxes there. More info available at www.eaa72.org Brent BidusKitfox 4 
E
AA Chapter 72 will be hosting a fly-in at Meadowlake Airport NE of Color
ado Springs Friday and Saturday.  It would sure be nice to see a few Kit
foxes there.  More info available at ww
w.eaa72.org
 
Brent Bidus
Kitfox 4
________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:48 PM PST US From: "John Galt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it is the market place that sets the value. On 7/28/06, Mark Thompson wrote: > > this is great,I love it.....awsome guys....wow what sales pitch...lol > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* wingsdown > *To: *kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* 7/28/2006 9:50:11 PM > *Subject:* RE: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale > > > Roger, > > As much as I admire craftsmanship, quality, well thought out design and > correctly selected components and beauty, you are safe. No one is going to > match or top your offer expectations. But let me be the first to say I would > appreciate being placed first on the give it away list since I have nothing > to fly. The market place is the judgment seat for selling prices, only we > the builders can place our own intrinsic worth and esoteric value on our > creations. I agree. It is worth at least $60K. > > Rick > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Roger Standley > *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2006 6:03 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale > > > I have been on this list for awhile and have heard many things. I have > seen a good number of Foxes up close. And lets face it, not all builders are > alike or build or even attempt to build to near factory standards. And for > than reason, maybe some Foxes aren't worth much. Have you ever seen a KitFox > that you would not take a ride in? I have! > > Well, no one is touching my Model IV-912UL for less than $60K. In fact, if > I was offered $75K today, I would not take it. I know how it was built and > how it flies and how I feel when I fly it. If I sold it, I would have to > build another to feel the same way. When I am not going to fly it any more, > I will give it away before accepting less than $60K! And mine is nothing > special next to some of the really nice Foxes I've seen. > > Roger > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Dave > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2006 1:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale > > > It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less of > the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now. > Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate > pricing. > > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Don Smythe > *To:* Kitfox List > *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM > *Subject:* Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale > > > While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine in > too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more than > $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off list and I'll > give all the specifics. > > Priced to sell (I hope) > Don Smythe > dosmythe@cox.net > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:25 PM PST US From: "clemwehner" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "clemwehner" I'm getting multiple copies of messages (up to 8) on privately posted messages as well and to messages received on other mail groups. Something's foul in the crow's nest! Clem Oklahoma -----Original Message- --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Is this only me, but I get as many as a dozen repeats of some messages and often over a period of a couple of days. It only happens on kitfox-list@matronics.com messages, never on privately posted messages. It has actually become quite painful. Lowell ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:06 PM PST US From: "QSS" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Engine quitting I appreciate every ones input into this issue. For the moment I will try increasing the idle revs to 1600 and see what happens. Regards Graeme -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of A Smith Sent: Monday, 14 August 2006 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Engine quitting Mine will do that if the mixture screw on the tbi is not set just right. Albert http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List "ttp://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion -- 8/08/2006 -- 8/08/2006 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:44 PM PST US From: Jimmie Blackwell Subject: Kitfox-List: Message Repeats Lowell I am also getting the same message up to five times. Noted that you and I both have SBCGlobal.net addresses. So perhaps It is something about the kitfox list and SBC Global. I am not getting repeats from anyone except the list. Any ideas? Jimmie ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:56 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation Terry, Just an FYI.. When the engine is ordered the tank is modified and shortened in house. Sorry I didnt mention that previously thought maybe the tank was already modified. Fly Safe !! John & Debra McBean 208.337.5111 www.kitfoxaircraft.com www.sportplanellc.com "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Terry Hughes Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:57 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a Kitfox IV and I am having a problem with lack of clearance between the top cowl piece and the top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). Actually, clearance isn't the right word here -- my oil line is actually lightly touching the underside of the top cowl piece. I'm using the Skystar-modified elbow fitting (thanks to John McBean) but that still isn't providing enough clearance. Although the fitting itself fits under the cowl, once the oil hose is attached and clamped all clearance between the oil hose and cowl is gone. Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do? I see several solutions, but so far I don't like any of them (or can't make them work). One, try to find a "lower profile" fitting for the OUT oil line. I've been looking, but so far no joy. Two, try to bend the existing elbow beyond 90 degrees, which might get the oil hose low enough to clear the cowl. Three, try to lower the oil tank. At best, I think I could lower it maybe a 1/4 of an inch, which I don't think would be enough. Four, cut a hole in the top cowl and fabricate a little "power bulge" to provide adequate oil line clearance. This seems to be the most drastic approach, particularly given my meager fiberglass-working skills, but it also gives the most clearance. Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Terry Hughes ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:46 PM PST US From: Jim Carriere Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox-List GPS Units --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Jim Carriere Try typing in "lowrance" in the first field (next to where it says "Search for Keywords"). http://forums.matronics.com/search.php Some of the other Matronics lists already have discussed the 2000C. I have also been seriously considering this unit, so I am more than casually interested in what customers have to say! Jim in NW FL Series 7 in progress __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:13 PM PST US From: "david yeamans" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation Terry, After transistioning from the 582 to the 912, I also had the same problem with oil tank clearence. First, Skystar sent me the modified elbo fiting, that helped a lot, but not enough, I got the lowest oil cap I could find, from Napa, I lowered the Oil tank as low as possible, I used a paint stir stick between the engine and the oil tank to gauge the clearence, as low as I dared to go without touching, and tighten the clamps around the oil Tank as tight as I possibly could so there would be no chance for slippage. There still was a slight touch to the cowling from one edge of the oil cap. I had some asbestous from a long time ago and glued a piece with high temp silicone where the cap touched. That was the best I could do. That was fifty hours ago, nothing has slipped, the cowling still fits snug around the oil cap, ( with the sabestous coushion ). and I don'i worry about it anymore, however, I still keep an eye on it. David ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry West To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:13 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation Terry, I also have a Model IV with the 912 ULS engine. I really don't know if the oil line is in contact with the cowling but I will check it. Anyway, if it is in contact it has been that way for 5 years and over 400 hours without a problem or any indication of wear. I will let you know after I check it. Barry West ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Hughes To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:56 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a Kitfox IV and I am having a problem with lack of clearance between the top cowl piece and the top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). Actually, clearance isn't the right word here -- my oil line is actually lightly touching the underside of the top cowl piece. I'm using the Skystar-modified elbow fitting (thanks to John McBean) but that still isn't providing enough clearance. Although the fitting itself fits under the cowl, once the oil hose is attached and clamped all clearance between the oil hose and cowl is gone. Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do? I see several solutions, but so far I don't like any of them (or can't make them work). One, try to find a "lower profile" fitting for the OUT oil line. I've been looking, but so far no joy. Two, try to bend the existing elbow beyond 90 degrees, which might get the oil hose low enough to clear the cowl. Three, try to lower the oil tank. At best, I think I could lower it maybe a 1/4 of an inch, which I don't think would be enough. Four, cut a hole in the top cowl and fabricate a little "power bulge" to provide adequate oil line clearance. This seems to be the most drastic approach, particularly given my meager fiberglass-working skills, but it also gives the most clearance. Any other suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Terry Hughes ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:54 PM PST US From: Grant Fluent Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS installation --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Grant Fluent Terry, I had the same problem as you with my oil tank. I cut an inch out of the middle and had a welding shop tig weld it together for $60. The stock fitting will then work fine. Grant Fluent Classic IV 912ULS --- jdmcbean wrote: > Terry, > Just an FYI.. When the engine is ordered > the tank is modified > and shortened in house. Sorry I didnt mention that > previously thought > maybe the tank was already modified. > > Fly Safe !! > John & Debra McBean > 208.337.5111 > www.kitfoxaircraft.com www.sportplanellc.com > > "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On > Behalf Of Terry Hughes > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:57 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox IV and 912ULS > installation > > I am in the final stages of installing a 912ULS in a > Kitfox IV and I am > having a problem with lack of clearance between the > top cowl piece and the > top oil line (the OUT line from the oil tank). > > Actually, clearance isn't the right word here -- my > oil line is actually > lightly touching the underside of the top cowl > piece. I'm using the > Skystar-modified elbow fitting (thanks to John > McBean) but that still isn't > providing enough clearance. Although the fitting > itself fits under the cowl, > once the oil hose is attached and clamped all > clearance between the oil hose > and cowl is gone. > > Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do? > > I see several solutions, but so far I don't like any > of them (or can't make > them work). One, try to find a "lower profile" > fitting for the OUT oil line. > I've been looking, but so far no joy. > > Two, try to bend the existing elbow beyond 90 > degrees, which might get the > oil hose low enough to clear the cowl. > > Three, try to lower the oil tank. At best, I think I > could lower it maybe a > 1/4 of an inch, which I don't think would be enough. > > Four, cut a hole in the top cowl and fabricate a > little "power bulge" to > provide adequate oil line clearance. This seems to > be the most drastic > approach, particularly given my meager > fiberglass-working skills, but it > also gives the most clearance. > > Any other suggestions or help would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks! > > Terry Hughes > > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:10 PM PST US From: "Marwynne" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale I have to agree. I had a Challanger II that I was in love with. Flew good and looked good. I wanted one price for 2 years. Then I sold it for the market price. It is a shame we can't get what we think our planes or worth. "but it is the market place that sets the value" Marwynne -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 4:24 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it is the market place that sets the value. On 7/28/06, Mark Thompson wrote: this is great,I love it.....awsome guys....wow what sales pitch...lol ----- Original Message ----- From: wingsdown To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: 7/28/2006 9:50:11 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale Roger, As much as I admire craftsmanship, quality, well thought out design and correctly selected components and beauty, you are safe. No one is going to match or top your offer expectations. But let me be the first to say I would appreciate being placed first on the give it away list since I have nothing to fly. The market place is the judgment seat for selling prices, only we the builders can place our own intrinsic worth and esoteric value on our creations. I agree. It is worth at least $60K. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Standley Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:03 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale I have been on this list for awhile and have heard many things. I have seen a good number of Foxes up close. And lets face it, not all builders are alike or build or even attempt to build to near factory standards. And for than reason, maybe some Foxes aren't worth much. Have you ever seen a KitFox that you would not take a ride in? I have! Well, no one is touching my Model IV-912UL for less than $60K. In fact, if I was offered $75K today, I would not take it. I know how it was built and how it flies and how I feel when I fly it. If I sold it, I would have to build another to feel the same way. When I am not going to fly it any more, I will give it away before accepting less than $60K! And mine is nothing special next to some of the really nice Foxes I've seen. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale It amazes me at the prices of used Kitfoxes. selling for 1/2 or less of the cost to build a new one and you can fly it now. Imo they should be selling alot higher but market seems to dictate pricing. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Smythe To: Kitfox List Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Classic IV for sale While planes are being advertised for sale, I may as well through mine in too. I need to sell my Fox Classic IV w/582. Will take $20K (more than $30K invested). If anyone is interested, send me a note off list and I'll give all the specifics. Priced to sell (I hope) Don Smythe dosmythe@cox.net