---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/30/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - Re: wing spars (John Anderson) 2. 03:47 AM - Re: wing spars (Noel Loveys) 3. 03:48 AM - Re: Heavily Corroded Wing Lift Struts - John (Jose M. Toro) 4. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Gas Caps Leakage (Bradley M Webb) 5. 06:03 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 6. 06:05 AM - Re: wing spars bend or wing warp? (cirrus10) 7. 06:08 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 8. 06:09 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 9. 06:10 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 10. 06:34 AM - Re: wing spars (John Oakley) 11. 07:06 AM - Re: wing spars (John Oakley) 12. 07:40 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 13. 07:55 AM - Re: wing spars (Guy Buchanan) 14. 08:13 AM - Re: wing spars (John Oakley) 15. 08:43 AM - Re: wing spars (Rueb, Duane) 16. 08:51 AM - Re: Kitfox for sale (John Galt) 17. 09:06 AM - Re: wing spars (Hank) 18. 09:09 AM - Re: wing spars (Fox5flyer) 19. 09:57 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 20. 09:59 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 21. 10:00 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 22. 10:01 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 23. 10:02 AM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 24. 03:35 PM - Re: wing spars (Noel Loveys) 25. 04:19 PM - Re: wing spars (Dave G.) 26. 04:43 PM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 27. 04:48 PM - Re: wing spars (cirrus10) 28. 05:05 PM - Re: Type of Aircraft (Michael Logan) 29. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 912 Xtra (Michael Logan) 30. 06:26 PM - Re: Demo ride in So. California? (rudderdancer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:15 AM PST US From: "John Anderson" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" If the wing is built, could it have been done on an wrongly set up jig?? And yes 1/4" over the full length doesn't seem much?? John A. From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, 1/4 does not seem like much, is the wing covered, and how is the wash out. if the wing is not covered you can take it out with the shrinking of the fabric. You could take the spar out with heat but it does not seem like much. John Oakley From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed _________________________________________________________________ Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:04 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Never heat structural aluminium! ..... Not and use it again. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:51 AM PST US From: "Jose M. Toro" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Heavily Corroded Wing Lift Struts - John --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" John: With different length lift struts, the difference in height was obvious when wings were folded, about three inches at wing tips. Like I mentioned in a previous e-mail, it was incredible how nice this plane flew for over a decade with these assymetries. Thanks for your feedback! Jos --- John Oakley wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" > > > > Jos, > You are right, new inserts, longer, may take care of > that problem, although > the new attachments will probably over shadow the > existing holes. The real > problem is the vertical holes drilled in the spars > at the fuselage > attachment point. It may be easier to have the new > struts made to order at > the factory. John could use a little support anyway. > > My fuselage was out of square by about 3/8 inch and > I set my attachments > different on each side to make it up. The wings come > together when I folded > but are several inches different in height when out, > you can see it if you > look close. The plane in the air doesnt know a > thing. > John Oakley > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Jose M. Toro > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:44 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Heavily Corroded Wing Lift > Struts - John > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jose M. Toro" > > > John: > > If I move the attachments, I will have open holes > corresponding to the original placement. I have > considered to use inserts to compensate for the > possible weakening, whose length may be most of the > length of the spar. > > What do you think about this option? > > Jos > > --- John Oakley wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" > > > > > > Jos Toro, > > If you change the length of the wing struts, you > > will affect the angle of > > the bolt holes that were drilled in the spars at > the > > airframe mounting. Even > > a little length will render the current spars > > unusable or worse if you bow > > them to fit, the spars may fail in flight. Also > you > > can not move the spar > > connection for the lift struts with out weakening > > the spars. Please consider > > this ..... > > > > Thanks, John Oakley > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > > > Web Forums! > > > > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > Web Forums! > > > Admin. > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:12 AM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Gas Caps Leakage --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" RTV = Really Tough Vaseline 8-O Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Rabbers Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:34 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gas Caps Leakage --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" > What is RTV? RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanizing ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:16 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" You're correct, parallel not perpendicular. To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the tube and prying it away from the ribs? Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:03 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 04:14 PM 8/29/2006, you wrote: >>I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little >>constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of >>wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of >>the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" >>at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that >>spar and see nothing unusual. >>Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? > > Since you're at the point of attaching the wings that means they're > assembled without strut fittings. It also means the bend must be vertical, > (which you state,) since a horizontal bend would be evident in both spars. > (The ribs should force the spars to be parallel, though it's certainly > possible they were installed with a bow in the forward spar.) However, a > vertical bend should be in the plane of the shear web of the insert, not > perpendicular to it. The shear web should be a vertical "I" beam. Some > clarification is required. > > Given the bend is vertical, and about 3/16 - 1/4", you then have almost > 1/2 degree twist in the wing just due to the bend. If so, you may be able > to trim the aircraft with the struts, but you're stall behavior will > probably be less than desirable. Not to mention your aircraft will look > like crap to the naked eye. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to see > unnatural deformations.) I vote replace the spar. (I'd bend it back if the > shear web weren't installed. There's too much of a risk of de-bonding the > shear web with it installed.) > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:42 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars bend or wing warp? Ralph, If you mean washout, then no. The front spar, I believe should be straight. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Forfun3@aol.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars bend or wing warp? I may be missing something, however is this describing the warp effect of the wing build process, model five wings have a wing warp built in by the process of setting up a jig while attaching ribs, if I am not mistaken? Ralph In a message dated 8/29/2006 9:06:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bnn@nethere.com writes: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 04:14 PM 8/29/2006, you wrote: >I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little >constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of >wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of >the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" >at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that >spar and see nothing unusual. >Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Since you're at the point of attaching the wings that means they're assembled without strut fittings. It also means the bend must be vertical, (which you state,) since a horizontal bend would be evident in both spars. (The ribs should force the spars to be parallel, though it's certainly possible they were installed with a bow in the forward spar.) However, a vertical bend should be in the plane of the shear web of the insert, not perpendicular to it. The shear web should be a vertical "I" beam. Some clarification is required. Given the bend is vertical, and about 3/16 - 1/4", you then have almost 1/2 degree twist in the wing just due to the bend. If so, you may be able to trim the aircraft with the struts, but you're stall behavior will probably be less than desirable. Not to mention your aircraft will look like crap to the naked eye. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to see unnatural deformations.) I vote replace the spar. (I'd bend it back if the shear web weren't installed. There's too much of a risk of de-bonding the shear web with it installed.) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. he es Day --> - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - bsp; --> nbsp; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:09 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars John, No, the leading edge is not on. I,ll try some clamping with the leading edge, and see if I can get some of the bow out. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Is the leading edge on now? Removing and replacing this might fix the problem. Don't panic yet, it does not seem bad. John Oakley ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:26 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" The wing was factory built, aand yes that is a possibility. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Anderson" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 1:40 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" > > > > If the wing is built, could it have been done on an wrongly set up jig?? > And yes 1/4" over the full length doesn't seem much?? John A. > > > From: "John Oakley" > To: > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:13:06 -0600 > > > Ed, > 1/4 " does not seem like much, is the wing covered, and how is the wash > out. if the wing is not covered you can take it out with the shrinking of > the fabric. You could take the spar out with heat but it does not seem > like much. > > John Oakley > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > > Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. > The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow > from one end to the other. > What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? > > Regards, > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron Liebmann > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > > > Hi Ed, > As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the > bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? > Is the wing completely built? > Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... > Ron N55KF > > I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little > constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of > wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of > the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" > at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that > spar and see nothing unusual. > Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? > > Thanks for any advice, > Ed > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Discover fun and games at @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:51 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars MessageNoel, I meant for removal purposes, but that info is good to know,. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:46 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Never heat structural aluminium! ..... Not and use it again. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:04 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:14 AM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Lay the wing upside down to help remove the bow. Place the leading edge in position, and then run continuous tape top and bottom of the leading edge. Sorry if I am pushy, I built several of these guys and learned a bunch. (ok, sometimes I think I am an expert) just slap me. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars John, No, the leading edge is not on. I,ll try some clamping with the leading edge, and see if I can get some of the bow out. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Is the leading edge on now? Removing and replacing this might fix the problem. Don't panic yet, it does not seem bad. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:33 AM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, The stringers that hold the false ribs may hold the problem also, I assume they are in. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Oakley Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Lay the wing upside down to help remove the bow. Place the leading edge in position, and then run continuous tape top and bottom of the leading edge. Sorry if I am pushy, I built several of these guys and learned a bunch. (ok, sometimes I think I am an expert) just slap me. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars John, No, the leading edge is not on. I,ll try some clamping with the leading edge, and see if I can get some of the bow out. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Is the leading edge on now? Removing and replacing this might fix the problem. Don't panic yet, it does not seem bad. John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:56 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars On the contrary John. I'm not into reinventing the wheel, and you're expertise is always appreciated. The stringer is installed on the top only. Thanks again. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Lay the wing upside down to help remove the bow. Place the leading edge in position, and then run continuous tape top and bottom of the leading edge. Sorry if I am pushy, I built several of these guys and learned a bunch. (ok, sometimes I think I am an expert) just slap me. John Oakley ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:08 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars John, No, the leading edge is not on. I,ll try some clamping with the leading edge, and see if I can get some of the bow out. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Is the leading edge on now? Removing and replacing this might fix the problem. Don't panic yet, it does not seem bad. John Oakley ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:34 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:08 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 06:02 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote: >To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the tube >and prying it away from the ribs? You don't really heat the tube, just the adhesive where the ribs bond. (Although if you're going to toss the tube you could just blow a torch down the middle, get the tube nice and hot, and then pull it off in one shot. Neat.) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:34 AM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, I think I have the whole picture now, The area with the insert is not bowed permanently because the insert is straight. So the problem was in jigging. The worse case scenario is taking off the upper stringer and rigging the wing to re install the stringers and leading edge. I have never seen a bent spar unless is damaged so no worry there. Both Dan and Phil were both very careful in their selection and inspection of materials. One more question, is the wood varnished? John Oakley _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars On the contrary John. I'm not into reinventing the wheel, and you're expertise is always appreciated. The stringer is installed on the top only. Thanks again. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Lay the wing upside down to help remove the bow. Place the leading edge in position, and then run continuous tape top and bottom of the leading edge. Sorry if I am pushy, I built several of these guys and learned a bunch. (ok, sometimes I think I am an expert) just slap me. John Oakley ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars From: "Rueb, Duane" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" Gentlemen: If you degrade an aircraft structural member by heating it, please be sure it never gets into the hands of someone who may want to use it for it's original purpose. None of us would want to ever be 'fooled' by assuming that a piece of aircraft metal is as marked if it isn't. This may seem trivial, but if you were fooled by assuming that a piece of aircraft metal was in it's marked condition and then used it in your baby, and then --- , well, you see what I mean. Either cut off the heated (altered) portion or clearly mark the piece as altered and no longer useable for aircraft construction. Duane Rueb -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:46 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 06:02 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote: >To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the tube >and prying it away from the ribs? You don't really heat the tube, just the adhesive where the ribs bond. (Although if you're going to toss the tue you could just blow a torch down the middle, get the tube nice and hot, and then pull it off in one shot. Neat.) Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:56 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox for sale From: "John Galt" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Galt" Mike: Please send me the specifics as well. I already sent you an e-mail off list about your kitfox for sale. Thanks! -John johngalt.0 (at) gmail.com -------- John Galt - johngalt.0 (@) gmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58519#58519 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:36 AM PST US From: Hank Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi, My wings were factory built and when I was setting up to attach them it became obvious that the front spar would have to be bent to have the attachment pin pass vertically through the center of the spar. I called the factory before continuing and was told not to bent the spar at all but to drill off center. Looks odd but that is what they told me to do. I am curious as to whether your spars have the correct separation at the inboard end. Perhaps the previous owner introduced a bend to correct the same sort of problem I had with my quick build wings. Hank On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:14 PM, cirrus10 wrote: > I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very > little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the > wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical > (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous > bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully > inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing > unusual. > Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? > > Thanks for any advice, > Ed > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:57 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" With that tiny bid of bend, it's probably just from the way it was glued and I doubt it would ever cause any sort of problem or even be perceptible when covered. As someone said, use the fabric shrinking to straighten it. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "cirrus10" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" > > You're correct, parallel not perpendicular. > To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the tube > and prying it away from the ribs? Thanks. > > Regards, > Ed > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Buchanan" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:03 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > > > At 04:14 PM 8/29/2006, you wrote: > >>I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little > >>constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of > >>wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of > >>the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" > >>at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that > >>spar and see nothing unusual. > >>Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? > > > > Since you're at the point of attaching the wings that means they're > > assembled without strut fittings. It also means the bend must be vertical, > > (which you state,) since a horizontal bend would be evident in both spars. > > (The ribs should force the spars to be parallel, though it's certainly > > possible they were installed with a bow in the forward spar.) However, a > > vertical bend should be in the plane of the shear web of the insert, not > > perpendicular to it. The shear web should be a vertical "I" beam. Some > > clarification is required. > > > > Given the bend is vertical, and about 3/16 - 1/4", you then have almost > > 1/2 degree twist in the wing just due to the bend. If so, you may be able > > to trim the aircraft with the struts, but you're stall behavior will > > probably be less than desirable. Not to mention your aircraft will look > > like crap to the naked eye. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to see > > unnatural deformations.) I vote replace the spar. (I'd bend it back if the > > shear web weren't installed. There's too much of a risk of de-bonding the > > shear web with it installed.) > > > > > > Guy Buchanan > > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:24 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hank, One of the first measurements I made were the tube distances, and they were both the same, 27.5" c to c. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Hank To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi, My wings were factory built and when I was setting up to attach them it became obvious that the front spar would have to be bent to have the attachment pin pass vertically through the center of the spar. I called the factory before continuing and was told not to bent the spar at all but to drill off center. Looks odd but that is what they told me to do. I am curious as to whether your spars have the correct separation at the inboard end. Perhaps the previous owner introduced a bend to correct the same sort of problem I had with my quick build wings. Hank On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:14 PM, cirrus10 wrote: I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed - The Kitfox-List Email Forum class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://forums.matronics.com - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://wiki.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. class="Apple-converted-space"> --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:02 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" Thanks Duane, good advice. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rueb, Duane" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:43 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Rueb, Duane" > > Gentlemen: > > If you degrade an aircraft structural member by heating it, > please be sure it never gets into the hands of someone who may want to > use it for it's original purpose. None of us would want to ever be > 'fooled' by assuming that a piece of aircraft metal is as marked if it > isn't. > This may seem trivial, but if you were fooled by assuming that a > piece of aircraft metal was in it's marked condition and then used it in > your baby, and then --- , well, you see what I mean. Either cut off the > heated (altered) portion or clearly mark the piece as altered and no > longer useable for aircraft construction. > > Duane Rueb > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy > Buchanan > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:46 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 06:02 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote: >>To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the > tube >>and prying it away from the ribs? > > You don't really heat the tube, just the adhesive where the ribs bond. > (Although if you're going to toss the tue you could just blow a torch > down > the middle, get the tube nice and hot, and then pull it off in one shot. > Neat.) > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:56 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars John, No, not varnished. I will take your advice and reglue the stringer. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:18 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, I think I have the whole picture now, The area with the insert is not bowed permanently because the insert is straight. So the problem was in jigging. The worse case scenario is taking off the upper stringer and rigging the wing to re install the stringers and leading edge. I have never seen a bent spar unless is damaged so no worry there. Both Dan and Phil were both very careful in their selection and inspection of materials. One more question, is the wood varnished? John Oakley ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:40 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars On the contrary John. I'm not into reinventing the wheel, and you're expertise is always appreciated. The stringer is installed on the top only. Thanks again. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: John Oakley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Ed, Lay the wing upside down to help remove the bow. Place the leading edge in position, and then run continuous tape top and bottom of the leading edge. Sorry if I am pushy, I built several of these guys and learned a bunch. (ok, sometimes I think I am an expert) just slap me. John Oakley ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:29 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" Thanks Deke. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" > > With that tiny bid of bend, it's probably just from the way it was glued > and > I doubt it would ever cause any sort of problem or even be perceptible > when > covered. As someone said, use the fabric shrinking to straighten it. > Deke > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cirrus10" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:02 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" >> >> You're correct, parallel not perpendicular. >> To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the > tube >> and prying it away from the ribs? Thanks. >> >> Regards, >> Ed >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Guy Buchanan" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:03 PM >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars >> >> >> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan >> > >> > At 04:14 PM 8/29/2006, you wrote: >> >>I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very >> >>little >> >>constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of >> >>wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear > of >> >>the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - > 1/4" >> >>at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that >> >>spar and see nothing unusual. >> >>Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? >> > >> > Since you're at the point of attaching the wings that means they're >> > assembled without strut fittings. It also means the bend must be > vertical, >> > (which you state,) since a horizontal bend would be evident in both > spars. >> > (The ribs should force the spars to be parallel, though it's certainly >> > possible they were installed with a bow in the forward spar.) However, >> > a >> > vertical bend should be in the plane of the shear web of the insert, >> > not >> > perpendicular to it. The shear web should be a vertical "I" beam. Some >> > clarification is required. >> > >> > Given the bend is vertical, and about 3/16 - 1/4", you then have almost >> > 1/2 degree twist in the wing just due to the bend. If so, you may be > able >> > to trim the aircraft with the struts, but you're stall behavior will >> > probably be less than desirable. Not to mention your aircraft will look >> > like crap to the naked eye. (You'd be surprised how easy it is to see >> > unnatural deformations.) I vote replace the spar. (I'd bend it back if > the >> > shear web weren't installed. There's too much of a risk of de-bonding > the >> > shear web with it installed.) >> > >> > >> > Guy Buchanan >> > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:04 AM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "cirrus10" Thanks Guy, good info. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan > > At 06:02 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote: >>To remove the spar is the next question. Would you suggest heating the >>tube >>and prying it away from the ribs? > > You don't really heat the tube, just the adhesive where the ribs bond. > (Although if you're going to toss the tube you could just blow a torch > down the middle, get the tube nice and hot, and then pull it off in one > shot. Neat.) > > > Guy Buchanan > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:39 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Sorry about that Ed As I got deeper into the thread this morning it became evident that you were trying to soften the epoxy to remove the ribs. I just got back to the 'puter tonight. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Noel, I meant for removal purposes, but that info is good to know,. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:46 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Never heat structural aluminium! ..... Not and use it again. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:04 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:18 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Message ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Sorry about that Ed As I got deeper into the thread this morning it became evident that you were trying to soften the epoxy to remove the ribs. I just got back to the 'puter tonight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Having just gone through the removing spars thing (rear in my case). The Hysol currently used is far less sensitive to heat than the older 3M material. With my soldering gun and a cutting tip I could simply carve away the 3M, but the Hysol was a bear from beginning to end. I'm not sure I would trouble to fix such a slight bow but I'd seek the advice of John McBean. They've been very helpful with my questions. Now if only there were a less costly way to ship a really long box between countries. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:22 PM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars MessageNot a problem. Just thanks to you and everyone else who has emailed. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Sorry about that Ed As I got deeper into the thread this morning it became evident that you were trying to soften the epoxy to remove the ribs. I just got back to the 'puter tonight. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:40 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Noel, I meant for removal purposes, but that info is good to know,. Thanks. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:46 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Never heat structural aluminium! ..... Not and use it again. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cirrus10 Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:04 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Actually, it's bowed on the shear of the insert, so it is up and down. The wing was factory built. There is no actual damage, but a slow bow from one end to the other. What's the possibility of removing that spar with heat? Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Liebmann To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars Hi Ed, As I read your note, as you look down the spar with the web vertical, the bend goes either to the right or left depending.....is this correct? Is the wing completely built? Send digital pics to the list if ya can.... Ron N55KF I am the second owner of a 6 in which the previous owner did very little constructionwise, and am at the point of attaching the wings. One of wings fore spars has a bend on the vertical (perpendicular to the shear of the insert). It is a continuous bend from end to end, and is 3/16" - 1/4" at the apex. I carefully inspected the rivets and glue joints on that spar and see nothing unusual. Problem? Do I need to replace the spar? Thanks for any advice, Ed ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:48 PM PST US From: "cirrus10" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars MessageLucky for me that it's the leading edge spar. I think I will be able to pry it as I'm using the heat. Thanks again for the help. Regards, Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave G. To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: wing spars ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: wing spars Sorry about that Ed As I got deeper into the thread this morning it became evident that you were trying to soften the epoxy to remove the ribs. I just got back to the 'puter tonight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Having just gone through the removing spars thing (rear in my case). The Hysol currently used is far less sensitive to heat than the older 3M material. With my soldering gun and a cutting tip I could simply carve away the 3M, but the Hysol was a bear from beginning to end. I'm not sure I would trouble to fix such a slight bow but I'd seek the advice of John McBean. They've been very helpful with my questions. Now if only there were a less costly way to ship a really long box between countries. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:59 PM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Type of Aircraft Series 5 EA81 140hp (RAM Performance) NSI CAP Dogwood Airpark VA42 Fredericksburg, VA Mike Logan _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirkhull Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:37 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Type of Aircraft How about adding your location as well? Kirk with a classic VI powered by a stratus Subaru and located in Kansas city Missouri / 0N0 _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Smythe Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Type of Aircraft Classic IV w/ 582 Gray Head. Tail Dragger Don Smythe ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:21 PM PST US From: "Michael Logan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax 912 Xtra --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michael Logan" I have many friends that have that mod and they love it. The guy that developed it is one of my neighbors in the airpark. He is kind of a jerk but he did a real good job on the kit. His pulsar has been running the 912Xtra for many years and never a hiccup. They run it at full throttle all the time without any problems. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dcsfoto Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Rotax 912 Xtra --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dcsfoto" anyone done this mod Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57665#57665 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Demo ride in So. California? From: "rudderdancer" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "rudderdancer" Thank you all for the info. I did do a search of the forum, but couldn't find anything that would help. I live in Victorville, CA which is in the high desert, same one Edwards AFB is in. I'll keep looking and if anyone knows of someone who's willing, I'll be glad to pay expenses (gas, lunch). I do have an offer from Scott Patterson for sometime in October. Also, I'll be searching for a reasonably priced Kitfox or Avid, doesn't need to be an award winner. Regards, Jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=58663#58663