---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/08/06: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:37 AM - Re: Instructions for Cargo Bay Kit - Series 5 (Michael Gibbs) 2. 04:01 AM - Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (Dave) 3. 04:14 AM - Turtle deck vibration (Fox5flyer) 4. 04:23 AM - Re: Name Check - Airplane type (Harold Flynn) 5. 05:30 AM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (wingnut) 6. 05:34 AM - Viewing Posted Photos (Howard) 7. 05:44 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (Dave) 8. 06:12 AM - Re: Wings Level ? (Noel Loveys) 9. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (kirkhull) 10. 06:42 AM - Re: Name Check - Airplane type (Barry West) 11. 07:12 AM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Lowell Fitt) 12. 07:17 AM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (kitfoxmike) 13. 07:18 AM - More additions (Lowell Fitt) 14. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (kirkhull) 15. 08:53 AM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (kitfoxmike) 16. 08:54 AM - Re: Viewing Posted Photos (Don Pearsall) 17. 09:38 AM - Re: Viewing Posted Photos (Dave G.) 18. 10:06 AM - Kitfox runs out of gas (Clem Nichols) 19. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (Brian Rodgers) 20. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (kurt schrader) 21. 11:34 AM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (kurt schrader) 22. 12:00 PM - Flyins Ontario Calendar I found (Dave) 23. 12:02 PM - Re: Wings Level ? (kurt schrader) 24. 12:12 PM - Re: Wings Level ? (Bradley M Webb) 25. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip (Bradley M Webb) 26. 12:43 PM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Jay Fabian) 27. 01:06 PM - Re: Name Check - Airplane type (Michael Laundy) 28. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Dave) 29. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Rex) 30. 01:52 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Dave G.) 31. 02:04 PM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Nelson Goguen) 32. 02:06 PM - Re: More additions (Donald STEVENSON) 33. 02:11 PM - Kitfox List Re: Kitfox runs out of gas (John Disher) 34. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (kirkhull) 35. 03:00 PM - Re: Name Check - Airplane type (wingnut) 36. 03:30 PM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (kitfoxmike) 37. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (John Oakley) 38. 05:26 PM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Lynn Matteson) 39. 05:47 PM - Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (kitfoxmike) 40. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (john perry) 41. 06:58 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (neflyer48) 42. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (john perry) 43. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Name Check - Airplane type (Herbert R Gottelt) 44. 10:26 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (John Oakley) 45. 11:12 PM - Please add my kitfox to the List (Willem Huisman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:16 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Instructions for Cargo Bay Kit - Series 5 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs >His reference was directed to Mike Gibbs KF-IV which crashed and >totaled coming in and pancaked.(jump in here Mike to add anything) >His baggage compartment only had adel clamps and did not move. The only thing that I'd add is that the rescue team estimated our impact at 20g and said that they generally don't see any survivors past about 23g. During construction, I also performed the stand-in-the-baggage-area test successfully. Steve Kellander constructed his gun bag similar to the way Dan has his, while mine used a solid, rectangular tube made from aluminum angle and sheet (you can see it a bit in Dan's photos). The tube survived the crash completely intact and will be going into the empennage of my new Series 6. :-) Mike G. N728KF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:35 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO27549/ 09/08/2006 Plane goes down in Wareham after aircraft runs out of gas [video] E-mail this story to a friend WAREHAM, Mass. -- It' s not a pretty picture for a pilot and passenger, who take off in a plane from Plymouth and plummet into a Wareham cranberry bog. The pair said plane ran out of gas. No serious injuries resulted from this small aircraft crash on Blackmore Pond Road, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. The plane, which was built in 1999, is a home built Kitfox model aircraft and is registered to James Lionberger of Marion. However, it is not confirmed if Lionberger was actually one of the two people on the flight. (Copyright (c) 2006 Sunbeam Television Corp. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.) JHR ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:05 AM PST US From: "Fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer. However, one thing that has always bothered me and is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air. I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I think it might work, but I don't know where to place them. Has anybody tried this with any success? Deke ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:28 AM PST US From: Harold Flynn Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Name Check - Airplane type Harold Flynn S-5 Lowell Fitt wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" check below to see if you are on the list. I have had a couple of senior moments and am almost positive, I lost another R name somewhere. Also I don't have last names for the last three entries. Lowell Algate Gary IV-1200 Ashman Eric CIV Baltrusaitis Ben 5 Anderson John 5 Bazzill Clint IV-1200S Begnaud Cliff 5 Boling Ralph 5 vixen Cannon Mike II Clements Travis IV-1200 Cozik Kevin 6 Cravener Don IV-1200 Crutchlow Mike II D'Archangel Dick C-IV Daughenbaugh Randy 5 Doud Herbert IV-1200 Eccles Steve 5 Estapa David 5 Fabian Jay IV-1200 Fitt Lowell IV-1200 Fitzgerald Mo 7A Gerace Greg II Goguen Nelson 5 Vixen Hastedt Margaret CIV Hefferen Rex III Higgins Florin IV-1200S Holliday Bob 5 Horne Glenn II Hull Kirk CIV Huston Barry IV-1200 Jones Kenneth 7 Kerr John CIV Klerks Jim IV-1050 Liebmann Ron II Lina Bruce V Logan Mike 5 Loveys Noel III-A Magdic Steve III Martin Brad 5 Matteson Lynn McConnell Roger 7 Meneszes Marco II Morisse Deke 5 Nichols Clem IV-1200 Olsen Gary 7 Osborn Tom III IV Wing Parker Jud 5 Patterson Scott IV-1200 Perry John II Persels Lyle IV-1200 Puls Jeff CIV-1200 Purdy Dwight II Rueb Duane 5 Sather Shane Lt SQ Schieffer Cjuck IV-1200 Schrader Kurt Shaw Rex IV-1200 Shiple Fred 6 Smythe Don IV-1200 Thiessen Mic IV-1200S Toft Graeme IV-1200 Toro Jose II Vader Tim CIV-1200 Verheughe Michel III Wahlquist Dave III Wehner Clem IV-1050 Wilson Steve II Wilyard Bill CIV-1200 Young Dee II Mike IV-1200 Eric IV-1200S David III --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:27 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip From: "wingnut" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" I'm skeptical that it was as simple as running out of gas. Wareham to Plymouth is 17 miles driving distance. Just the gas in he header tank will take you farther than that. Seems unlikely that they would take off with totally dry main tanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60329#60329 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:33 AM PST US From: "Howard" Subject: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos I notice on my Digest List, that members have posted photos. How do I view them? Howard Ligon ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:53 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off or were not on in flight .. The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I believe but i do not know how long it would take . Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "wingnut" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" > > I'm skeptical that it was as simple as running out of gas. Wareham to > Plymouth is 17 miles driving distance. Just the gas in he header tank will > take you farther than that. Seems unlikely that they would take off with > totally dry main tanks. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60329#60329 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:26 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" For cruising a cockpit adjustable rudder trim tab isn't really necessary. Get a piece of aluminium 6061 .025" X 6" x 3" should do and staple it on the trailing edge of your rudder with blind rivets. Neatness and following curves counts! Set your plane up for a cruise speed and determine what rudder corrections are needed. If you always find yourself standing on the right rudder pedal then when you get down bend the tab slightly to the left. Yes it's not adjustable in flight but it will take the tediousness out of having to stand on one foot for a couple of hours at a time. It won't be nearly as heavy as the cockpit controlled unit but it will work at a fraction of the weight. Make sure you add checking it to your pre-flight walk around. I would like to see a trim on the horizontal stabilizer but the truth of the matter is that the plane trims out pretty well just by using the tiniest bit of flaperon input. Maybe the pendulum effect of having floats on and the ventral fin help keep everything straight. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn Matteson > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:24 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder, Lowell. I'd like a > cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't want to have to deal > with stripping the covering and going in there with a servo, etc. I'm > going to think more about it after I get my Sport Pilot Cert. > and I get > to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg gets oversize, I'll > put that project higher on the priority list. : ) > > Lynn > On Wednesday, September 6, 2006, at 06:02 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > I do have a bit of dihedral. I am goung to ry to do something with > > the rudder. I am in deep thought about it, trying to avoid > the tab, > > but that eventualy will be the likely solution. > > > > Lowell > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:29 AM PST US From: "kirkhull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirkhull" It would not surprise me at all if someone took off with empty tanks. Some people don't do a preflight and just go. Also some people will know they are almost out of fuel but thank that they can make it any way. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" I'm skeptical that it was as simple as running out of gas. Wareham to Plymouth is 17 miles driving distance. Just the gas in he header tank will take you farther than that. Seems unlikely that they would take off with totally dry main tanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60329#60329 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:31 AM PST US From: "Barry West" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Name Check - Airplane type I'm not on the list. I have Model IV with a 912 S and it is a taildragger. Barry West ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Flynn To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:22 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Name Check - Airplane type Harold Flynn S-5 Lowell Fitt wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" check below to see if you are on the list. I have had a couple of senior moments and am almost positive, I lost another R name somewhere. Also I don't have last names for the last three entries. Lowell Algate Gary IV-1200 Ashman Eric CIV Baltrusaitis Ben 5 Anderson John 5 Bazzill Clint IV-1200S Begnaud Cliff 5 Boling Ralph 5 vixen Cannon Mike II Clements Travis IV-1200 Cozik Kevin 6 Cravener Don IV-1200 Crutchlow Mike II D'Archangel Dick C-IV Daughenbaugh Randy 5 Doud Herbert IV-1200 Eccles Steve 5 Estapa David 5 Fabian Jay IV-1200 Fitt Lowell IV-1200 Fitzgerald Mo 7A Gerace Greg II Goguen Nelson 5 Vixen Hastedt Margaret CIV Hefferen Rex III Higgins Florin IV-1200S Holliday Bob 5 Horne Glenn II Hull Kirk CIV Huston Barry IV-1200 Jones Kenneth 7 Kerr John CIV Klerks Jim IV-1050 Liebmann Ron II Lina Bruce V Logan Mike 5 Loveys Noel III-A Magdic Steve III Martin Brad 5 Matteson Lynn McConnell Roger 7 Meneszes Marco II Morisse Deke 5 Nichols Clem IV-1200 Olsen Gary 7 Osborn Tom III IV Wing Parker Jud 5 Patterson Scott IV-1200 Perry John II Persels Lyle IV-1200 Puls Jeff CIV-1200 Purdy Dwight II Rueb Duane 5 Sather Shane Lt ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:16 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" Deke, I get a little bit of pulsing evident in the fabric under the wing from time to time. I have attributed it to the prop pulses in the prop wash area. Keep us posted on what you find out. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fox5flyer" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 4:05 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer. However, one thing that has always bothered me and is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air. I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I think it might work, but I don't know where to place them. Has anybody tried this with any success? Deke ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:15 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" The way I see it, this can happen in several ways. One somebody stole his gas and he knew he filled it the day before. Still no excuse, you should always check, not only the site tubes, but if you don't see the line you open the tanks and double check. Next, the pilot hasn't flown very much and just got side tracked and didn't do a preflight. But probably what gets me, is why he took off without fuel, during the day we should have 30 min. left in the tanks to be within faa regs. after landing. right people really go by that stuff. Am I the only one that lands when the tanks get twards the bottom of the sight tubes. Now this is for if the tanks were really empty. From the looks of the plane, who knows, those tanks can empty pretty fast in that possision. So I guess we will never know if it was just fuel starvation or truelly out of gas. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60352#60352 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:20 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Kitfox-List: More additions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" I added the following: Werner Keiper Joel Mapes Jerry Kohles Harold Flynn Lowell ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:42 AM PST US From: "kirkhull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirkhull" A good crash investigator can tell if there was fuel just buy looking at the carbs. There are also other ways of telling depending on the aircraft. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxmike Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 9:16 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" The way I see it, this can happen in several ways. One somebody stole his gas and he knew he filled it the day before. Still no excuse, you should always check, not only the site tubes, but if you don't see the line you open the tanks and double check. Next, the pilot hasn't flown very much and just got side tracked and didn't do a preflight. But probably what gets me, is why he took off without fuel, during the day we should have 30 min. left in the tanks to be within faa regs. after landing. right people really go by that stuff. Am I the only one that lands when the tanks get twards the bottom of the sight tubes. Now this is for if the tanks were really empty. >From the looks of the plane, who knows, those tanks can empty pretty fast in that possision. So I guess we will never know if it was just fuel starvation or truelly out of gas. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60352#60352 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" I would hate to be that guy if they find that he just didn't have fuel when he left the airport. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60370#60370 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:46 AM PST US From: "Don Pearsall" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos Howard, most of the photos come now as email attachments. Depending on your email software, you should be able to just click on the attachment and your photo-viewing software will open it. If you don't see any photo attachments, then your email software may be stripping them off the emails. Also, if you just get the digest version, it will not have the attachments. You have to get the individual emails for that, or go to the Matronics daily archive to view the pics. Don Pearsall Admin _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:33 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos I notice on my Digest List, that members have posted photos. How do I view them? Howard Ligon ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:20 AM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos I think that you must be recieving individual emails to get attachments. If you recieve the digest I think the attachments are stripped off. ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Pearsall To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos Howard, most of the photos come now as email attachments. Depending on your email software, you should be able to just click on the attachment and your photo-viewing software will open it. If you don't see any photo attachments, then your email software may be stripping them off the emails. Also, if you just get the digest version, it will not have the attachments. You have to get the individual emails for that, or go to the Matronics daily archive to view the pics. Don Pearsall Admin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:33 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Viewing Posted Photos I notice on my Digest List, that members have posted photos. How do I view them? Howard Ligon ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:58 AM PST US From: "Clem Nichols" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox runs out of gas If you watched the video, you heard the announcer say the pair had been taking pictures. That's still no excuse for running out of fuel, but it's likely that their flight totaled more than 17 miles. Clem Nichols Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:13 AM PST US From: "Brian Rodgers" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Brian Rodgers" ..... or perhaps space aliens .... ......or maybe gasoline-eating bacteria..... Speculating is such fun. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:43 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" > > If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off or were not on in flight > . > The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I believe but i do not know how > long it would take . > > Dave > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "wingnut" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:28 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip > > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" > > > > I'm skeptical that it was as simple as running out of gas. Wareham to > > Plymouth is 17 miles driving distance. Just the gas in he header tank will > > take you farther than that. Seems unlikely that they would take off with > > totally dry main tanks. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60329#60329 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:23 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Hi Dave, I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes when checking my gas cap seals for leaks. I flew them on their normal sides, then swapped them. The fuel moved from the well sealed tank to the poorly sealed tank and leaked out. Tanks were less than 3/4s full. The pressurized tank went down to 2 gal. I am sure a bigger leak or a missing cap could drain it much faster. Kurt S. S-5 --- Dave wrote: > If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off > or were not on in flight. > The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I > believe but i do not know how > long it would take. > Dave __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:37 AM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader Same with me Deke, The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck. I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen, or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend to both myself, when I get the time. The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6" between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it. A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17 degree angle and distances. You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO. I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet. Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo --- Fox5flyer wrote: > My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer. > However, one thing that has always bothered me and > is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at > cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air. > I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view > mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the > contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some > vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and > help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I > think it might work, but I don't know where to place > them. Has anybody tried this with any success? > Deke __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:27 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Kitfox-List: Flyins Ontario Calendar I found I might try to make it to Tillsonburg or St thomas Sat or Sunday . WX looks better for Sunday for SW ontario at this point. Dave September 9-10, Tillsonburg, ON: Tillsonburg Airport will be hosting a fly-in/drive-in as part of "Doors Open Ontario/Oxford" from 9 AM until 4 PM. Visit our airport for free tours of the Harvard buildings as well as Spectrum Paint and Interior. Or just fly in and enjoy some food from our barbecue and a refreshment. Vendors on site. Food will be available from 11:30 until 1:30 both days. For more information please contact the airport at 519-842-2929 or e-mail: amurray@tillsonburg.ca If you are interested in visiting any of the other participating 28 sites, please contact us for transportation. Visit: www.doorsopenoxford.ca for more info. September 10, St. Thomas, ON: COPA Flight 75's 11th annual fly-in/drive-in breakfast. Antique cars, live entertainment, excellent food and the Lancaster Bomber fly-in and static display. Other exceptional aircraft and exhibitors are anticipated. Contact Easton44@rogers.com or bassons@execulink.com for more information. September 9 Fort Francis ON 7th Annual pancake breakfast and BBQ at the Ft. Francis Airport. Breakfast served from 9-11AM and the BBQ runs from 11AM-3PM. Check out the Homebuilts, Wheel planes, Amphibs, old cars and motorcycles. For more information call Bruce Caldwell at 807-274-3070 or email Crystal Godbout September 9th Brampton ON RAA-TR Fall Corn Roast. Past events have featured roast pork, turkey, and BBQ bratwursts to complement the farm fresh corn. Pot Luck for salads, desserts, and buns. Coffee and other refreshments available. All welcome, nominal cost. RAA-TR hangar at north end of field at Brampton Airport NC3. Earl Trimble or Bill Tee at 905-787-8524 and 416-742-8939 . September 10 Orono ON RAA Oshawa Annual Barnyard Fly-in at Hawke Field (private strip) 9am-3pm. N44 00, W78 39 . Relaxed fly-in and lunch, with activities. Circuit Height 1600 ASL. Frequency 122.775 . Nordo follow standard procedures. All circuits to the WEST of 18/36 runway. 3300 ft grass, 300 ft displaced threshold on 18. Keep safety as first priority. Contact Chris Gardiner at 905-668-5703 or cgardn628@rogers.com . Website at www.geocities.com/oneflyguy@rogers.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:39 PM PST US From: kurt schrader Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader How about a cable with a button release in the cockpit that pulls on a long spring or bungy attached to the rudder cable or pedal? The "long" spring is necessary to avoid the rapid rise in tension from a short spring that would limit rudder movement. You just pull a little tension on the cable/spring and it pulls the rudder enough to trim. The other way is a knob with a cable wrapped around a pully that attaches to springs for both rudder sides, if you need to adjust both ways. Both are heavier than just a tab, but allow cockpit adjustment without tearing the plane apart. You can get fancy with a large servo, cables and springs if you want electric trim. Lots of ways to do it.... Kurt S. --- Lynn Matteson wrote: > I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder, > Lowell. I'd like a > cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't > want to have to deal > with stripping the covering and going in there with > a servo, etc. I'm > going to think more about it after I get my Sport > Pilot Cert. and I get > to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg > gets oversize, I'll > put that project higher on the priority list. : ) > > Lynn __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:45 PM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" This is what I had, and what every Cessna 172 rudder has. Bu tI think I'm going to be a little more suave about it on my new rudder. The RV guys are using a balsa airplane trailing edge. Basically a wedge glued to the left side of the rudder, at the trailing edge. Very light, and the size determines the amount of trim. Cover or paint, and I think they look better. The problem I had with the tab is that there isn't much meat back there to rivet to. The flex as the rivets age lessens the effect after a while. Some structural adhesive would have helped, but I didn't have any, and have now re-covered my rudder. Your system is very effective, though. Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 9:11 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" For cruising a cockpit adjustable rudder trim tab isn't really necessary. Get a piece of aluminium 6061 .025" X 6" x 3" should do and staple it on the trailing edge of your rudder with blind rivets. Neatness and following curves counts! Set your plane up for a cruise speed and determine what rudder corrections are needed. If you always find yourself standing on the right rudder pedal then when you get down bend the tab slightly to the left. Yes it's not adjustable in flight but it will take the tediousness out of having to stand on one foot for a couple of hours at a time. It won't be nearly as heavy as the cockpit controlled unit but it will work at a fraction of the weight. Make sure you add checking it to your pre-flight walk around. I would like to see a trim on the horizontal stabilizer but the truth of the matter is that the plane trims out pretty well just by using the tiniest bit of flaperon input. Maybe the pendulum effect of having floats on and the ventral fin help keep everything straight. Noel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Lynn Matteson > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:24 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ? > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson > > I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder, Lowell. I'd like a > cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't want to have to deal > with stripping the covering and going in there with a servo, etc. I'm > going to think more about it after I get my Sport Pilot Cert. > and I get > to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg gets oversize, I'll > put that project higher on the priority list. : ) > > Lynn > On Wednesday, September 6, 2006, at 06:02 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > > > > I do have a bit of dihedral. I am goung to ry to do something with > > the rudder. I am in deep thought about it, trying to avoid > the tab, > > but that eventualy will be the likely solution. > > > > Lowell > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:03 PM PST US From: "Bradley M Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley M Webb" >>> >>>...I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes... >>> >>> >>> >>>Kurt S. S-5 Hell, I lost that just flying the 582... Bradley ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:05 PM PST US From: "Jay Fabian" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" Hi Guys, Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last night. He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but the right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff untill settling after landing. Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the landing, at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a fast plane. Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds the bog. No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass and Pride. Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was there gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel filters off of each tank? I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, clog in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago in NH at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. They are still invesigating it. But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, not making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under his belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. Jay Fabian 4-1200 912UL PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? we have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Hi Dave, > > I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes when checking my gas cap > seals for leaks. I flew them on their normal sides, > then swapped them. The fuel moved from the well > sealed tank to the poorly sealed tank and leaked out. > Tanks were less than 3/4s full. The pressurized tank > went down to 2 gal. > > I am sure a bigger leak or a missing cap could drain > it much faster. > > Kurt S. S-5 > > --- Dave wrote: > >> If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off >> or were not on in flight. > >> The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I >> believe but i do not know how >> long it would take. > >> Dave > > __________________________________________________ > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:02 PM PST US From: Michael Laundy Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Name Check - Airplane type Laundy Mike Model 3 Amphibs Cornwall UK neflyer48 wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" Jerry Kohles Norfolk Ne. Model 3 912UL Tail dragger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 8:39 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Name Check - Airplane type > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" > > check below to see if you are on the list. I have had a couple of senior > moments and am almost positive, I lost another R name somewhere. Also I > don't have last names for the last three entries. > > Lowell > > Algate > Gary > IV-1200 > > Ashman > Eric > CIV > > Baltrusaitis > Ben > 5 > > Anderson > John > 5 > > Bazzill > Clint > IV-1200S > > Begnaud > Cliff > 5 > > Boling > Ralph > 5 vixen > > Cannon > Mike > II > > Clements > Travis > IV-1200 > > Cozik > Kevin > 6 > > Cravener > Don > IV-1200 > > Crutchlow > Mike > II > > D'Archangel > Dick > C-IV > > Daughenbaugh > Randy > 5 > > Doud > Herbert > IV-1200 > > Eccles > Steve > 5 > > Estapa > David > 5 > > Fabian > Jay > IV-1200 > > Fitt > Lowell > IV-1200 > > Fitzgerald > Mo > 7A > > Gerace > Greg > II > > Goguen > Nelson > 5 Vixen > > Hastedt > Margaret > CIV > > Hefferen > Rex > III > > Higgins > Florin > IV-1200S > > Holliday > Bob > 5 > > Horne > Glenn > II > > Hull > Kirk > CIV > > Huston > Barry > IV-1200 > > Jones > Kenneth > 7 > > Kerr > John > CIV > > Klerks > Jim > IV-1050 > > Liebmann > Ron > II > > Lina > Bruce > V > > Logan > Mike > 5 > > Loveys > Noel > III-A > > Magdic > Steve > III > > Martin > Brad > 5 > > Matteson > Lynn > > > McConnell > Roger > 7 > > Meneszes > Marco > II > > Morisse > Deke > 5 > > Nichols > Clem > IV-1200 > > Olsen > Gary > 7 > > Osborn > Tom > III IV Wing > > Parker > Jud > 5 > > Patterson > Scott > IV-1200 > > Perry > John > II > > Persels > Lyle > IV-1200 > > Puls > Jeff > CIV-1200 > > Purdy > Dwight > II > > Rueb > Duane > 5 > > Sather > Shane > Lt SQ > > Schieffer > Cjuck > IV-1200 > > Schrader > Kurt > > > Shaw > Rex > IV-1200 > > Shiple > Fred > 6 > > Smythe > Don > IV-1200 > > Thiessen > Mic > IV-1200S > > Toft > Graeme > IV-1200 > > Toro > Jose > II > > Vader > Tim > CIV-1200 > > Verheughe > Michel > III > > Wahlquist > Dave > III > > Wehner > Clem > IV-1050 > > Wilson > Steve > II > > Wilyard > Bill > CIV-1200 > > Young > Dee > II > > > Mike > IV-1200 > > > Eric > IV-1200S > > > David > III > > > -- > > --------------------------------- Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" The Wall Street Journal ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:43 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" Jay, Thanks for the report and good news that they are ok. It can happen to anyone and sounds like a pretty good forced approach he made and with little damage . Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Fabian" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 3:41 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" > > > Hi Guys, > > Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. > > He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last > night. > > He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even > checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right > side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? > While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but the > right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff untill > settling after landing. > Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! > > Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the landing, > at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a fast plane. > Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds the > bog. > > No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass and > Pride. > > Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was there > gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel filters off > of each tank? > I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, clog > in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. > He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago in NH > at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. > They are still invesigating it. > > But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, not > making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. > Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. > > Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under his > belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. > > Jay Fabian > 4-1200 912UL > > PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? we > have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kurt schrader" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video > clip > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes when checking my gas cap >> seals for leaks. I flew them on their normal sides, >> then swapped them. The fuel moved from the well >> sealed tank to the poorly sealed tank and leaked out. >> Tanks were less than 3/4s full. The pressurized tank >> went down to 2 gal. >> >> I am sure a bigger leak or a missing cap could drain >> it much faster. >> >> Kurt S. S-5 >> >> --- Dave wrote: >> >>> If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off >>> or were not on in flight. >> >>> The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I >>> believe but i do not know how >>> long it would take. >> >>> Dave >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:27 PM PST US From: Rex Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex One other thing that irks me is the terms often thrown about by the news media. On the video the term "nosedived into a cranberry bog" was used. Obviously the aircraft damage was not consistent with what I understand as a nosedive accident. m-w.com defines "Nosedive" as: *1* *:* a downward nose-first plunge of a flying object (as an airplane). Maybe it's debatable, but I would have said "nosed over after an emergency landing" as he had run out of roll out room before reaching the water. Well, what can you do when News folks don't bother to run their script by even a low time student pilot for accuracy. Rex Colorado Jay Fabian wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" > > > Hi Guys, > > Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. > > He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last > night. > > He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even > checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right > side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? > While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but > the right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff > untill settling after landing. > Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! > > Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the > landing, at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a > fast plane. > Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds > the bog. > > No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass > and Pride. > > Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was > there gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel > filters off of each tank? > I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, > clog in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. > He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago > in NH at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. > They are still invesigating it. > > But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, > not making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. > Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. > > Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under > his belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. > > Jay Fabian > 4-1200 912UL > > PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? > we have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:18 PM PST US From: "Dave G." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Fabian" > Hi Guys, > > Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. > > He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last > night. > Glad to hear they landed ok with no injuries, hope all is repaired soon. Jay, can you update us when the cause is discovered? It sounds like one of those "nice to know" things. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:47 PM PST US From: "Nelson Goguen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Nelson Goguen" Deke, I wonder if the glass area in the turtle deck had a slight bow to it, it wouldn't oilcan and vibrate. I purchased mine, a one piece affair, an it came with about a one inch crown on it. The instructions said it was to keep it from vibrating. Can't be sure as I'm still not flying yet. Fly safe, Nelson do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Same with me Deke, > > The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck. > > I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen, > or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are > vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket > behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend > to both myself, when I get the time. > > The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping > them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6" > between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set > 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge > closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing > leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it. > A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17 > degree angle and distances. > > You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge > and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere > between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO. > > I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe > fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more > of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet. > > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Fox5flyer wrote: > >> My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer. >> However, one thing that has always bothered me and >> is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at >> cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air. >> I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view >> mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the >> contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some >> vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and >> help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I >> think it might work, but I don't know where to place >> them. Has anybody tried this with any success? >> Deke > > __________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:55 PM PST US From: Donald STEVENSON Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: More additions Hi Lowell, I added my info a few days ago but have not seen my name on any list, so here it is again just in case it was missed:- Don Stevenson Caledon, Ontario, Canada Email, shericom@rogers.com M4/1200 Speedster Tail wheel 912UL- 3 blade wooden prop Build about 75% completed (in covering stage) ----- Original Message ---- From: Lowell Fitt Sent: Friday, September 8, 2006 7:16:40 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: More additions --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" I added the following: Werner Keiper Joel Mapes Jerry Kohles Harold Flynn Lowell ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:07 PM PST US From: "John Disher" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox List Re: Kitfox runs out of gas ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:03 PM PST US From: "kirkhull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirkhull" We had a Piper get caught in a wake behind a 767 ( I thank it might have been something else)here in Kansas City about 8 or 9 months ago. On the news report they said that " it was heard shifting gears and then it fell out of the sky" . I'm still waiting for some one to show me where the gear shift lever. It seems to be the case that most media outlets are more interested in saying something fast rather then something correct or intelligent. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 3:35 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rex One other thing that irks me is the terms often thrown about by the news media. On the video the term "nosedived into a cranberry bog" was used. Obviously the aircraft damage was not consistent with what I understand as a nosedive accident. m-w.com defines "Nosedive" as: *1* *:* a downward nose-first plunge of a flying object (as an airplane). Maybe it's debatable, but I would have said "nosed over after an emergency landing" as he had run out of roll out room before reaching the water. Well, what can you do when News folks don't bother to run their script by even a low time student pilot for accuracy. Rex Colorado Jay Fabian wrote: > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" > > > Hi Guys, > > Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. > > He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last > night. > > He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even > checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right > side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? > While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but > the right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff > untill settling after landing. > Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! > > Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the > landing, at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a > fast plane. > Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds > the bog. > > No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass > and Pride. > > Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was > there gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel > filters off of each tank? > I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, > clog in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. > He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago > in NH at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. > They are still invesigating it. > > But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, > not making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. > Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. > > Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under > his belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. > > Jay Fabian > 4-1200 912UL > > PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? > we have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:10 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Name Check - Airplane type From: "wingnut" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Model IV 1200 912UL Luis Rodriguez 824KF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60458#60458 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" Glad all is well with the pilot and passenger. Now to reilerate on the fuel caps. They are the last things I check before I get in the plane. In the last month I've had one cap that was off, forgot I put it in the window next to where the pin for the wing goes. Now this one will scare you guys, I had a cap that was not clipped on the second clip, if that makes sense. When I check the cap I always grap the vent end, this does two things, makes sure the cap is on right, forward, and if it's solid on the wiggle test, then both clips are secure. This cap wasn't, scared me, but then I was on the ground so all was well, removed the cap, reinstalled and went flying. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60461#60461 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:33 PM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" Jay, Ok, to tell this story I have to admit that I, a man, perfect as I am, made a mistake..... once, 2 years ago I flew out of the primitive area and fueled at Salmon. While self fueling, I was talking, and well shooting the bull. Some one else pulled up a bit close for me and I hurried to finish. I remember that I left the passenger cap a bit loose or something. I was going to go back to it after I put the hose down. Ok, I did not. After take off I listened to other guys talk about debris on the runway. One asked what color it was, one asked what it looked like, some one said it had a goose neck on it and was chrome..... Duh, at the same time my fuel system was alarming with bells that I had low pressure. Investigation showed almost 0 lbs of pressure. My wife said there was a blue cloud on her side... ok crap... we announced the part was ours and were returning, lord don't let us back fire.... we lost 8 gal. In about 10 minutes, it sucked the fuel from the wing with the cap on, and lowered the pressure to the point to alarm my gages..... I assume this has happened today ...again.. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jay Fabian Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 1:41 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" Hi Guys, Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last night. He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but the right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff untill settling after landing. Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the landing, at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a fast plane. Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds the bog. No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass and Pride. Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was there gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel filters off of each tank? I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, clog in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago in NH at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. They are still invesigating it. But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, not making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under his belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. Jay Fabian 4-1200 912UL PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? we have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video clip > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Hi Dave, > > I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes when checking my gas cap > seals for leaks. I flew them on their normal sides, > then swapped them. The fuel moved from the well > sealed tank to the poorly sealed tank and leaked out. > Tanks were less than 3/4s full. The pressurized tank > went down to 2 gal. > > I am sure a bigger leak or a missing cap could drain > it much faster. > > Kurt S. S-5 > > --- Dave wrote: > >> If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off >> or were not on in flight. > >> The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I >> believe but i do not know how >> long it would take. > >> Dave > > __________________________________________________ > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration From: Lynn Matteson --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson I got mine from LP Aeroplastics, and it is domed and does not vibrate. Like you said, Nelson, it has about a 1" dome to the "glass". This required that I remove the hinge, therefore the whole 'deck has to be dealt with as an unbendable whole and not hinging it any more....but it doesn't leak, either. Lynn Lynn On Friday, September 8, 2006, at 05:03 PM, Nelson Goguen wrote: > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Nelson Goguen" > > Deke, > > I wonder if the glass area in the turtle deck had a slight bow to it, > it wouldn't oilcan and vibrate. I purchased mine, a one piece affair, > an it came with about a one inch crown on it. The instructions said > it was to keep it from vibrating. Can't be sure as I'm still not > flying yet. > > Fly safe, > > Nelson > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- From: "kurt schrader" > > To: > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:33 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> >> >> Same with me Deke, >> >> The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck. >> >> I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen, >> or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are >> vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket >> behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend >> to both myself, when I get the time. >> >> The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping >> them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6" >> between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set >> 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge >> closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing >> leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it. >> A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17 >> degree angle and distances. >> >> You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge >> and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere >> between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO. >> >> I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe >> fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more >> of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet. >> >> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo >> >> --- Fox5flyer wrote: >> >>> My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer. >>> However, one thing that has always bothered me and >>> is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at >>> cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air. >>> I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view >>> mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the >>> contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some >>> vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and >>> help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I >>> think it might work, but I don't know where to place >>> them. Has anybody tried this with any success? >>> Deke >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:23 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! From: "kitfoxmike" --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" John, what an experience. Do you have seperate shut off valves for each tank? I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one off. I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and running on the other if the cap was missing. One thing I am serious about doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank. Seems a wise thing to do now. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60486#60486 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:35 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john perry" Thanks for the heads up . Very Glad both are ok . I do agree this is no place to make jokes but to learn and not condemn . Hopefully he will have the lady back in the air soon . Fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD 582 But soon to be Subbie TD and Straight Floats ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Fabian" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:41 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:40 PM PST US From: "neflyer48" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "neflyer48" I ran off without a gas cap a couple of years ago. After about 20 miles the capless tank was running over and the tank with the cap on showed empty. I made it to my destination OK. I'm sure the reason the capless tank ran over is that the tank with the cap on is pressurized from the forward tube and forced the gas over to the tank with no cap. (I don't have shut-off valves between them). Jerry Kohles M3,912 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Fabian" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:41 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Jay Fabian" > > > Hi Guys, > > Well just to let you know Jim and the passenger are OK. > > He is a friend of mine and this is how it happened as he told me last > night. > > He did do a preflight , and had half full tanks in Both wings. He even > checked the caps before flight, But he thinks he did not put the right > side one on tight or at all. As it was missing at the landing site? > While flying he noticed the pilots side gauge had no gas in it, but the > right tank still had 1/2 left. No Problem they always read diff untill > settling after landing. > Then as they headed back a few min later the engine Stopped! > > Tried the restart, called in emergency landing , and started the landing, > at 1,500'. Not too high but better to be in a kitfox than a fast plane. > Made the landing but slid off the Bog into the smallriver that feeds the > bog. > > No prop strike, engine was dead, no major damage, except fiberglass and > Pride. > > Problem is: If the cap of the half full tank had come off, why was there > gas still in it??? I donot remember if he has the glass fuel filters off > of each tank? > I would assume the gas would siphon out fast. Maybe he had two probs, clog > in line and ran out of gas in the other wing. > He did not use auto gas with alcohol either, he filled up a week ago in NH > at an airport with their auto fuel with no alcohol. > They are still invesigating it. > > But they are OK, I think that is the first thing to be concerned with, not > making jokes about someones life just because you do not know them. > Lets just learn from the accidents, ok. > > Plus , he is a retired fighter pilot, so he also has a few hours under his > belt and he is not a low timer . Just for extra info. > > Jay Fabian > 4-1200 912UL > > PS. What ever was the out come on the auto fuel / alcohol problem? we > have the up to 10% methanol in our gas here in Mass. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kurt schrader" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:01 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas - News plus video > clip > > >> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader >> >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I lost 3 gal in 45 minutes when checking my gas cap >> seals for leaks. I flew them on their normal sides, >> then swapped them. The fuel moved from the well >> sealed tank to the poorly sealed tank and leaked out. >> Tanks were less than 3/4s full. The pressurized tank >> went down to 2 gal. >> >> I am sure a bigger leak or a missing cap could drain >> it much faster. >> >> Kurt S. S-5 >> >> --- Dave wrote: >> >>> If so, then perhaps wing tank caps that came off >>> or were not on in flight. >> >>> The siphoning could evacuate a tank quickly I >>> believe but i do not know how >>> long it would take. >> >>> Dave >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:59 PM PST US From: "john perry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "john perry" OK OK OK i will tell one on Myself After refuleing the nose tank on my Mod 2 i set the cap on , then proceeded to fill the wing tank I did put that one on good and tite and the vent pointing forward . A friend came by and we talked for 5 min or so then i got in started up and taxied out on the take off 150 into the roll the front cap left the plane and rolled to the side of runway and the gas was being siphoned out up and over the windshield faster than i could get her shut down . I thought she would burn with all that gas dripping into and on the exhaust but some one was looking out for em that day and i survived . after new windshield . Preflight now says fuel first check caps on Last part of preflight says Check fuel caps on . I think even i get complacent in my daily life and things i do . so a written reminder is good . Fly safe fly low fly slow John Perry kitfox 2 N718pd 582 Soon to be Subbie TD and Straight Floats > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:03 PM PST US From: Herbert R Gottelt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Name Check - Airplane type Model 4-1200 912UL Tail Dragger 94HG 350 hrs wingnut wrote: --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" Model IV 1200 912UL Luis Rodriguez 824KF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60458#60458 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:16 PM PST US From: "John Oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" Kitfox mike, I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago. John Oakley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxmike Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" John, what an experience. Do you have seperate shut off valves for each tank? I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one off. I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and running on the other if the cap was missing. One thing I am serious about doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank. Seems a wise thing to do now. -------- kitfoxmike kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike rv7 wingkit reserved 287RV Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60486#60486 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:26 PM PST US From: "Willem Huisman" Subject: Kitfox-List: Please add my kitfox to the List Kitfox Series V N77LR 420TT Lycoming O-235 Wim Huisman Lelystad Netherlands