Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:16 AM - carb heat box (Eric)
2. 04:28 AM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Fox5flyer)
3. 04:51 AM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Fox5flyer)
4. 04:51 AM - Re: Wings Level ? (Fox5flyer)
5. 04:58 AM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (Dave)
6. 06:08 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (PWilson)
7. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (John Oakley)
8. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Don Smythe)
9. 07:46 AM - Low level fuel indicator (HMDOUD)
10. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Don Smythe)
11. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Randy Daughenbaugh)
12. 08:38 AM - Added to the list (Lowell Fitt)
13. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (Dave G.)
14. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (PWilson)
15. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (PWilson)
16. 01:07 PM - Re: Low level fuel indicator (PWilson)
17. 05:30 PM - Re: Low level fuel indicator (Guy Buchanan)
18. 05:30 PM - 582 RPM Variation (Guy Buchanan)
19. 05:57 PM - Re: Turtle deck vibration (kurt schrader)
20. 06:03 PM - Re: 582 RPM Variation (kurt schrader)
21. 06:05 PM - Recent purchase questions ()
22. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! (kurt schrader)
23. 07:12 PM - Re: wrong photo. (kurt schrader)
24. 07:13 PM - Re: master cylinder (Dave and Diane)
25. 08:42 PM - Fly-in at Brown? (Guy Buchanan)
26. 08:51 PM - Re: 582 RPM Variation (Guy Buchanan)
27. 09:14 PM - 7A baggage area and door. (Greaves)
28. 11:57 PM - Ethanol damage to fuel tanks ? (parahawk)
Message 1
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there is a Kitfox 4 carb heat box on eBay
Eic
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle deck vibration |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thanks Kurt. I suspect most of them vibrate, but the pilot just doesn't
know it. It isn't bad. It just vibrates enough that it causes black dust
around the edges where it contacts the wings. Perhaps this winter when I
have the time and the airplane is down for annual I can conjure up
something. I'd like to do the VGs across the whole wing, but I'm concerned
about the loss of speed. That's about the only thing that's held me back.
Deke
>
> Same with me Deke,
>
> The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck.
>
> I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen,
> or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are
> vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket
> behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend
> to both myself, when I get the time.
>
> The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping
> them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6"
> between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set
> 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge
> closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing
> leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it.
> A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17
> degree angle and distances.
>
> You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge
> and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere
> between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO.
>
> I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe
> fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more
> of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet.
>
> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>
> --- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
>
> > My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer.
> > However, one thing that has always bothered me and
> > is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at
> > cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air.
> > I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view
> > mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the
> > contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some
> > vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and
> > help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I
> > think it might work, but I don't know where to place
> > them. Has anybody tried this with any success?
> > Deke
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle deck vibration |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Thank you Nelson. You're probably correct because a slight bow would give
the turtle deck a small amount of lift thereby putting some constant tension
on it. My turtle deck is in great shape and I'm not quite ready to replace
it yet so I'm considering the VGs first to see what will happen. My gut
feeling is that it will work.
Deke
>
> Deke,
>
> I wonder if the glass area in the turtle deck had a slight bow to it, it
> wouldn't oilcan and vibrate. I purchased mine, a one piece affair, an it
> came with about a one inch crown on it. The instructions said it was to
> keep it from vibrating. Can't be sure as I'm still not flying yet.
>
> Fly safe,
>
> Nelson
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration
>
>
> > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
> > <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
> >
> > Same with me Deke,
> >
> > The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck.
> >
> > I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen,
> > or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are
> > vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket
> > behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend
> > to both myself, when I get the time.
> >
> > The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping
> > them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6"
> > between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set
> > 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge
> > closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing
> > leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it.
> > A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17
> > degree angle and distances.
> >
> > You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge
> > and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere
> > between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO.
> >
> > I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe
> > fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more
> > of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet.
> >
> > Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
> >
> > --- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
> >
> >> My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer.
> >> However, one thing that has always bothered me and
> >> is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at
> >> cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air.
> >> I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view
> >> mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the
> >> contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some
> >> vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and
> >> help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I
> >> think it might work, but I don't know where to place
> >> them. Has anybody tried this with any success?
> >> Deke
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wings Level ? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
I believe the early RV used the knob and spring method. Something to check
out.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "kurt schrader" <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wings Level ?
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader
<smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
>
> How about a cable with a button release in the cockpit
> that pulls on a long spring or bungy attached to the
> rudder cable or pedal? The "long" spring is necessary
> to avoid the rapid rise in tension from a short spring
> that would limit rudder movement.
>
> You just pull a little tension on the cable/spring and
> it pulls the rudder enough to trim.
>
> The other way is a knob with a cable wrapped around a
> pully that attaches to springs for both rudder sides,
> if you need to adjust both ways.
>
> Both are heavier than just a tab, but allow cockpit
> adjustment without tearing the plane apart.
>
> You can get fancy with a large servo, cables and
> springs if you want electric trim.
>
> Lots of ways to do it....
>
> Kurt S.
>
> --- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm also thinking about a trim fin for the rudder,
> > Lowell. I'd like a
> > cabin-adjustable. The biggest problem is I don't
> > want to have to deal
> > with stripping the covering and going in there with
> > a servo, etc. I'm
> > going to think more about it after I get my Sport
> > Pilot Cert. and I get
> > to actually GO somewhere...then when my right leg
> > gets oversize, I'll
> > put that project higher on the priority list. : )
> >
> > Lynn
>
> __________________________________________________
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle deck vibration |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Deke ,
I have a vibration at run up on turtle deck but nothing in flight. I
have Vgs in shop but have not used yet.
Kitfox IV works good now with full elevator authority and great slow speed
performance. But my Kitfox is about 550 lbs so the weight helps alot.
I think I will try them some time as well. I have heard that a few vgs
placed on the back of the windshield near the turtle deck will stop the
vibrations.
I have harrison designs ones here . You can get I think 100 of them for ?
under 100$ ithink. Plus just try with 2 sided carpet tape.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Turtle deck vibration
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <morid@northland.lib.mi.us>
>
> Thanks Kurt. I suspect most of them vibrate, but the pilot just doesn't
> know it. It isn't bad. It just vibrates enough that it causes black dust
> around the edges where it contacts the wings. Perhaps this winter when I
> have the time and the airplane is down for annual I can conjure up
> something. I'd like to do the VGs across the whole wing, but I'm
> concerned
> about the loss of speed. That's about the only thing that's held me back.
> Deke
>
>>
>> Same with me Deke,
>>
>> The only vibrating part seems to be the turtledeck.
>>
>> I wonder if the air is seperating over the windscreen,
>> or the strakes on the side of the turtledeck are
>> vibrating in the turbulence from the draggy pocket
>> behind the aft spar. Maybe both. I'd like to attend
>> to both myself, when I get the time.
>>
>> The VG's are easy to do. You can test them by taping
>> them down with enough good clear tape. Try them 6"
>> between pair centers. The pairs are 1" apart and set
>> 17 degrees off in opposite directions, leading edge
>> closest. Run a straight edge parallel to the wing
>> leading edge 6" back and put the VG backs against it.
>> A cardboard template makes it easier to set the 17
>> degree angle and distances.
>>
>> You can adjust the distance back from the leading edge
>> and test fly to get the best results. Somewhere
>> between 4" and 8" back should do it IMHO.
>>
>> I expect to retire at the end of the year and maybe
>> fly all for fun then. :-) Then I can do a lot more
>> of this fun testing stuff. Not there just yet.
>>
>> Kurt S. S-5/NSI turbo
>>
>> --- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
>>
>> > My S5 has always been a pretty smooth flyer.
>> > However, one thing that has always bothered me and
>> > is causing some wear is the turtle deck vibrating at
>> > cruise speeds, presumably due to some turbulent air.
>> > I can't hear it, but I can see it in the rear view
>> > mirror and the vibration is causing wear on the
>> > contact surfaces. I am thinking that perhaps some
>> > vortex generators might smooth out the air flow and
>> > help to either solve or ameliorate the problem. I
>> > think it might work, but I don't know where to place
>> > them. Has anybody tried this with any success?
>> > Deke
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
John,
Can you or someone clarify. Please explain.
Vent from the header to one main tank is the standard design.
Did the forced landing have the standard fuel system with the header
behind the seat?
This design gives some small margin even with empty main tanks and
the low level sensor warns the pilot of impending fuel exhaustion.
Thanks, Paul
================
At 11:30 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
>
>Kitfox mike,
>I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone
>down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel
>systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago.
>John Oakley
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxmike
>Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:46 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>
>John, what an experience. Do you have seperate shut off valves for each
>tank? I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one
>off. I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and
>running on the other if the cap was missing. One thing I am serious about
>doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank. Seems a wise thing to
>do now.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
>http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
>rv7 wingkit
>reserved 287RV
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60486#60486
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
Paul,
We have had discussions on the header tank vent many times on the web. I
have had several, just lately on this subject with a couple of our guys. We
lost several planes over the years due to fuel starvation and had full or
partial full tanks, I don't want to libel myself here, but do want to save
any of us from repeating accidents. I can't say what happened to the plane
this week, but do know that with a open header tank vent you can empty the
header and still have fuel on board. I believe we had problems earlier with
the loops in the hose from the tank (for wing folding) getting air in them,
causing the tank to unport. The header then emptied.
Valves in the lines to the header from the tanks will allow some degree of
trouble shooting in the air. These valves would have stopped the suction
from pulling fuel from both tanks. A valve in the header vent will be closed
in flight forcing the fuel to be pulled from one tank or the other as
controlled. You still have to worry about plugged tank vents or full
screens. I use a fuel pressure gage to help trouble shoot, it is a life
saver for me. I also have an electric booster under the seat that is my
comfort thing.
Sorry for the ramble, John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
John,
Can you or someone clarify. Please explain.
Vent from the header to one main tank is the standard design.
Did the forced landing have the standard fuel system with the header
behind the seat?
This design gives some small margin even with empty main tanks and
the low level sensor warns the pilot of impending fuel exhaustion.
Thanks, Paul
================
At 11:30 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
>
>Kitfox mike,
>I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone
>down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel
>systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago.
>John Oakley
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxmike
>Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:46 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>
>John, what an experience. Do you have seperate shut off valves for each
>tank? I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one
>off. I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and
>running on the other if the cap was missing. One thing I am serious about
>doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank. Seems a wise thing to
>do now.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
>http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
>rv7 wingkit
>reserved 287RV
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60486#60486
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
This might not apply but, is along the same subject line. I have a riding
lawnmower and the fuel system is "similar" to a kitfox. That is, has a
large tank above the engine and is gravity fed to the engine. Now, my
lawnmower will run 1/2 of the fuel in the tank and then, go dead (out of
fuel). This is observed by the completely empty inline fuel filter. It's
not the vented cap because it happens with the cap off????? If I pull the
tank side line off the filter, fuel again starts to flow from the tank,
refills the filter and off she runs again??? It has to be some sort of
vapor lock and wonder if some sort of similar situation could happen to a
Kitfox system. BTW, the lawnmower will use the whole tank if filled with
100LL. 100LL tends not to vapor lock like autofuel. I spend hours and
weeks testing my Fox fuel system to see what would conditions could cause
flow restrictions etc. This lawnmower system has me stumped.
Don Smythe
Message 9
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| Subject: | Low level fuel indicator |
Hey listers........
With all the discussion on the list of Kitfoxers commenting on fuel
shortages...(In the air) reminded me that I have been going to install a
low level fuel warning light on my Model 4.
I have a poly semi-transparent poly tank and without painting it black,
for the light sensitive low level indicator, or replumbing for the small
aluminum tank, for a light sensitive probe........what suggestions are
there out there for a header tank probe?
I have been considering the electronic probe on page 222, in th '06 CPS
catalog. It's solid state and has no moving parts. It's actualy a
fuel level gauge. I don't know if that's really necessary, as a simple,
warning light on the panel, ..........(red, blinking, maybe two
blinking alternatively, with a control stick shaker, maybe a loud horn,
a screaming female voice on the intercom, you know something simple)
.......that would light up if the header tank level drops below, say an
inch from the top of the tank.
Sure would be a good safety factor, for those of us whose necks are not
on a 180 degree swivel, so we could look behind our back, to see the
poly tank fuel level.
Herb
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
John,
This fuel thing used to be one of my favorite subjects. I am missing a
couple things you said. See below
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
>> but do know that with a open header tank vent you can empty the header
>> and still have fuel on board.>>
What do you mean by an open header vent? How can the vent line open or
closed cause the flow from the wing tanks to stop?
>> the loops in the hose from the tank (for wing folding) getting air in
>> them, causing the tank to unport. The header then emptied. >>
I tested this and sure enough, a high spot in the line such as the loop will
cause fuel to stop flowing to the header. Even a line that is straight
without going continiously downhill will cause slower flow. I think the
unporting was referring to fuel rushing forward in the tanks when performing
an extended down angle decent. This would cause fuel to flow away from the
rear outlet of the tank and thus, unport.
>>A valve in the header vent will be closed in flight forcing the fuel to be
>>pulled from one tank or the other as
controlled.>>
I played with that idea but came up with one other possible problem. If you
close the header vent and then get into a long decent (unport the fuel tank
outlet) you could possibly burn all the fuel in the two tank supply lines
and a portion of the header. Once you level off and reestablish fuel to the
outlet ports, the header would have to refill. With no header vent the fuel
lines would have to take on double duty and act as vents. I tested this and
found that the venting process is slowed significantly when fuel has to come
down and air trying to go up the same line.
Don Smythe
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
John,
If the fox that went down in the bog had a "standard" kitfox fuel system
with the header vented into one of the main tanks, I can understand what
happened. As someone already pointed out, if the cap is missing or leaking,
it will suck fuel out of the other tank and the engine should run until the
other tank is empty. This will leave the tank with the missing cap with
fuel in it.
When you talk of the header tank vent, do you mean with it vented to one of
the main tanks? Or elsewhere?
I don't understand how the header tank can empty and still have fuel in the
mains unless a cap is missing or the header tank is vented to somewhere
else.
This is an important issue.
Randy
.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Oakley
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:04 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
Paul,
We have had discussions on the header tank vent many times on the web. I
have had several, just lately on this subject with a couple of our guys. We
lost several planes over the years due to fuel starvation and had full or
partial full tanks, I don't want to libel myself here, but do want to save
any of us from repeating accidents. I can't say what happened to the plane
this week, but do know that with a open header tank vent you can empty the
header and still have fuel on board. I believe we had problems earlier with
the loops in the hose from the tank (for wing folding) getting air in them,
causing the tank to unport. The header then emptied.
Valves in the lines to the header from the tanks will allow some degree of
trouble shooting in the air. These valves would have stopped the suction
from pulling fuel from both tanks. A valve in the header vent will be closed
in flight forcing the fuel to be pulled from one tank or the other as
controlled. You still have to worry about plugged tank vents or full
screens. I use a fuel pressure gage to help trouble shoot, it is a life
saver for me. I also have an electric booster under the seat that is my
comfort thing.
Sorry for the ramble, John Oakley
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PWilson
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
John,
Can you or someone clarify. Please explain.
Vent from the header to one main tank is the standard design.
Did the forced landing have the standard fuel system with the header
behind the seat?
This design gives some small margin even with empty main tanks and
the low level sensor warns the pilot of impending fuel exhaustion.
Thanks, Paul
================
At 11:30 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
>
>Kitfox mike,
>I firmly believe if I had a vent from the header tank, I would have gone
>down with fuel in the tanks. I have since, been very wary of my fuel
>systems; we lost several good people from our list the same way years ago.
>John Oakley
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kitfoxmike
>Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:46 PM
>To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kitfoxmike" <kitfoxmike@yahoo.com>
>
>John, what an experience. Do you have seperate shut off valves for each
>tank? I do and I usually pic a tank to run off of and shut the other one
>off. I wonder if that would prevent problems by turning off one tank and
>running on the other if the cap was missing. One thing I am serious about
>doing is putting a low fuel alarm on my header tank. Seems a wise thing to
>do now.
>
>--------
>kitfoxmike
>kitfox4 1200 912ul speedster
>http://www.frappr.com/kitfoxmike
>rv7 wingkit
>reserved 287RV
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60486#60486
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Added to the list |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
This is great. This has been a nice project. After the traffic subsides, I
will organize the data a bit better and post it as an attachment to the list
for all to see.
Lowell
Harper L. (Jake) Jacoby
Wim Huisman - Good to have you post the info and have you on the list. Your
airplane was a familiar sight here until Leo's untimely passing. I used to
fly to Placerville to watch the building progress and watch Leo's wife,
Lola, busy as a bee cleaning up after him - he could never find anything.
Hope the airplane is serving you well.
Gottelt, Herb - I got an empty page. Try again.
Luis Rodriguez
Don Stevenson
Laundy Mike _ Mike I didn't get an engine type.
Lynn Matteson - the model is there - sorry
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
It might be wrong to claim the "standard" design has one thing or another as
there are many iterations of the design. Mine has two 13? gal wing tanks and
a 2? gal header. The header tank has only a bleed vent that ends at the
firewall and is normally closed. This is exactly as documented in my manual
from '92.
----- Original Message -----
From: "PWilson" <pwmac@sisna.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on!
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
>
> John,
> Can you or someone clarify. Please explain.
> Vent from the header to one main tank is the standard design.
> Did the forced landing have the standard fuel system with the header
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
Thanks Don,
You are technically correct. and proved it by testing. Now I wonder
what the real story was about the forced landing. Maybe John can
expand his explanation?
Paul
==========
At 08:58 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
>John,
> This fuel thing used to be one of my favorite subjects. I am
> missing a couple things you said. See below
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Oakley" <john@leptron.com>
>
>>>but do know that with a open header tank vent you can empty the
>>>header and still have fuel on board.>>
>
>What do you mean by an open header vent? How can the vent line open
>or closed cause the flow from the wing tanks to stop?
>
>>>the loops in the hose from the tank (for wing folding) getting air
>>>in them, causing the tank to unport. The header then emptied. >>
>
>I tested this and sure enough, a high spot in the line such as the
>loop will cause fuel to stop flowing to the header. Even a line that
>is straight without going continiously downhill will cause slower
>flow. I think the unporting was referring to fuel rushing forward
>in the tanks when performing an extended down angle decent. This
>would cause fuel to flow away from the rear outlet of the tank and
>thus, unport.
>
>>>A valve in the header vent will be closed in flight forcing the
>>>fuel to be pulled from one tank or the other as
>controlled.>>
>
>I played with that idea but came up with one other possible
>problem. If you close the header vent and then get into a long
>decent (unport the fuel tank outlet) you could possibly burn all the
>fuel in the two tank supply lines and a portion of the header. Once
>you level off and reestablish fuel to the outlet ports, the header
>would have to refill. With no header vent the fuel lines would have
>to take on double duty and act as vents. I tested this and found
>that the venting process is slowed significantly when fuel has to
>come down and air trying to go up the same line.
>
>Don Smythe
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: PWilson <pwmac@sisna.com>
restricted line, bad fuel pump???
PW
========
At 08:08 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Don Smythe" <dosmythe@cox.net>
>
>This might not apply but, is along the same subject line. I have a
>riding lawnmower and the fuel system is "similar" to a kitfox. That
>is, has a large tank above the engine and is gravity fed to the
>engine. Now, my lawnmower will run 1/2 of the fuel in the tank and
>then, go dead (out of fuel). This is observed by the completely
>empty inline fuel filter. It's not the vented cap because it
>happens with the cap off????? If I pull the tank side line off the
>filter, fuel again starts to flow from the tank, refills the filter
>and off she runs again??? It has to be some sort of vapor lock and
>wonder if some sort of similar situation could happen to a Kitfox
>system. BTW, the lawnmower will use the whole tank if filled with
>100LL. 100LL tends not to vapor lock like autofuel. I spend hours
>and weeks testing my Fox fuel system to see what would conditions
>could cause flow restrictions etc. This lawnmower system has me stumped.
>
>Don Smythe
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Low level fuel indicator |
Wicks/ACS sell a gold old fashioned flowt on a lever that trips a
switch. It screws in the header after the brass adapter is removed.
then get a flashing red light for the panel. No need for a high tech sensor.
PW
================
At 08:46 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:
>Hey listers........
>
>With all the discussion on the list of Kitfoxers commenting on fuel
>shortages...(In the air) reminded me that I have been going to
>install a low level fuel warning light on my Model 4.
>
>I have a poly semi-transparent poly tank and without painting it
>black, for the light sensitive low level indicator, or replumbing
>for the small aluminum tank, for a light sensitive probe........what
>suggestions are there out there for a header tank probe?
>
>I have been considering the electronic probe on page 222, in th '06
>CPS catalog. It's solid state and has no moving parts. It's
>actualy a fuel level gauge. I don't know if that's really
>necessary, as a simple, warning light on the panel, ..........(red,
>blinking, maybe two blinking alternatively, with a control stick
>shaker, maybe a loud horn, a screaming female voice on the intercom,
>you know something simple) .......that would light up if the header
>tank level drops below, say an inch from the top of the tank.
>
>Sure would be a good safety factor, for those of us whose necks are
>not on a 180 degree swivel, so we could look behind our back, to see
>the poly tank fuel level.
>
>Herb
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Low level fuel indicator |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 07:46 AM 9/9/2006, you wrote:
>I have a poly semi-transparent poly tank and without painting it black,
>for the light sensitive low level indicator, or replumbing for the small
>aluminum tank, for a light sensitive probe........what suggestions are
>there out there for a header tank probe?
ACS 6905-400 $20.60 Sensor. They also sell a warning light and bulb, but
I'd look for an LED light to save power. I use this in my poly tank. It's a
float sensor. The only problem is getting the unit to seal in the Poly
tank. The best installation has a very large hole and an aluminum or brass
adapter sealed into the tank with 2-part polysulfide sealant. Then the
sensor threads into the adapter with just some thread sealant. This way you
can service the sensor without ever having to re-seal the poly tank.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 18
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| Subject: | 582 RPM Variation |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
I've got a 582 that likes to wander +/- 100-200 RPM when cruising at 5800.
(Actually, pretty much anytime.) It appears to be more than just prop
loading, as I have to chase it with the throttle, and not just the
elevator. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle deck vibration |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Hi Deke,
When I tested the VG's on my plane 2 years back, I
found that the max speed varied a bit with position.
Closer to the leading edge seemed to have no speed
loss, while further back did cost a few knots. This
is why I suggested a max of 6" back. My worst loss in
max speed was about 5 knots on a further aft position.
The VG stalls were much more controlled in that I
could cross control or use considerable rudder and
still fly the plane in the stall without uncontrolled
fall off to a side. That alone made the VG's a good
deal to me. If you inadvertently stall it, nothing
real scarry happens and recovery is even easier than
usual for a KF. It makes slow flight and short field
work much more secure.
Unfortunately I got no significant reduction in stall
speed from them. I'll test again in the future with
some enhanced elevator authority and see if that
helps.
But I wouldn't let any worry about cruise speed loss
stop you. You can test several positions and use the
one that works best without more than a knot
difference in max speed.
Now cleaning the wing.... that will be a little
harder.
Kurt S.
--- Fox5flyer <morid@northland.lib.mi.us> wrote:
.......I'd like to do the VGs across the whole
> wing, but I'm concerned about the loss of speed.
> That's about the only thing that's held me back.
> Deke
__________________________________________________
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM Variation |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Make sure you don't have a slipping clutch like Don S.
had a while back. His was worse, but yours could be
just starting.
Next guess is a lose timing adjustment. My old 2
cycle would handle a mixture problem better than a
timing problem.
Just some guesses to start with.
Kurt S.
--- Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> wrote:
> I've got a 582 that likes to wander +/- 100-200 RPM
> when cruising at 5800.
> (Actually, pretty much anytime.) It appears to be
> more than just prop
> loading, as I have to chase it with the throttle,
> and not just the
> elevator. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly
> to Bob Ducar.
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Recent purchase questions |
I recently purchased a Kitfox III with a model 4 wing. What enhancements
will this provide to me over the model 3 wing? This kit comes with a
Rotax 912 80hp. What performance specs should I expect? I am looking
forward to finishing this project. If there is anything else you feel I
should know I would appreciate any input! Thanks again!
Ken Schwartz
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Runs out of gas Please read on! |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
Don,
You could just try a little heat wrap on the line and
see if that helps?
Kurt S.
--- Don Smythe <dosmythe@cox.net> wrote:
> This might not apply but, is along the same subject
> line. I have a riding
> lawnmower and the fuel system is "similar" to a
> kitfox. That is, has a
> large tank above the engine and is gravity fed to
> the engine. Now, my
> lawnmower will run 1/2 of the fuel in the tank and
> then, go dead (out of
> fuel). This is observed by the completely empty
> inline fuel filter. It's
> not the vented cap because it happens with the cap
> off????? If I pull the
> tank side line off the filter, fuel again starts to
> flow from the tank,
> refills the filter and off she runs again??? It has
> to be some sort of
> vapor lock and wonder if some sort of similar
> situation could happen to a
> Kitfox system. BTW, the lawnmower will use the
> whole tank if filled with
> 100LL. 100LL tends not to vapor lock like autofuel.
> I spend hours and
> weeks testing my Fox fuel system to see what would
> conditions could cause
> flow restrictions etc. This lawnmower system has me
> stumped.
>
> Don Smythe
__________________________________________________
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: wrong photo. |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: kurt schrader <smokey_bear_40220@yahoo.com>
A senior moment on my part. They were already done on
my quick built wings, but I now remember the
instructions for them.
Kurt S.
Do not archive
--- Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> wrote:
> At 09:36 PM 9/6/2006, you wrote:
> > am surpised to see that the new inserts do not
> have
> >the "V" relief cut in each end. This "V" cut is to
> >reduce the sharp change in stiffness at the insert
> >ends, which creates stress points on the spar.
>
> I believe you cut those in yourself. You definitely
> want them.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly
> to Bob Ducar.
__________________________________________________
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: master cylinder |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Dave and Diane <ddsyverson@comcast.net>
Eric,
Just an idea, and I don't know it it is applicable to your situation or not.
Here is what I ran into on the master cylinders. I purchased a dual brake
system from Sky&#$^. After Sky&#$^ dissappeared, I found that I had two
different cylinder models; two Matco MC-4A cylinders, which were the correct
length, and two Matco MC-4 master cylinders which were too long for the
application. The bodys of both the MC-4A and MC-4 were identical, the
difference was in the lenght of the piston rod and some internal parts. The
MC-4 piston rods were about 1/2" longer and resulted in exactly the same
geometry problem with the rudder pedals which you described.
I realize that you said the cylinder length was not a problem, but there is
some adjustment on the screw end of the piston rod which might make it
possible to get the adjustment (eye to eye) close for the two models of
cylinders yet still cause problems with the geometry.
I can't say you have the same problem, but you might want to check to be sure
both sets of cylinders are the correct model number for the kit.
At any rate, Matco helped me out by exchanging the cylinders for a very
reasonable rate and providing the tech data to figure the problem out. The
individual I dealt with was:
George R. Happ
MATCO mfg
801-486-7574 801-486-7581 (F)
www.matcomfg.com
If the installation is still a problem, I would sincerely suggest contacting
George. They know their products and also know how to treat people right.
(No-they did not pay me to say that-its experience with them speaking)If you
are stuck - I believe that MATCO will be able to help you figure the problem
out.
Sincerely,
Dave S
St Paul, MN
Kitfox 7(training wheel on the front)
On Thursday 07 September 2006 6:00 pm, Eric wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I have just installed the main gear and hooked up bled the brakes. Piston
> in the left master cylinder has about 1/2" of free travel before brake
> pressure is applied. Right side is very tight, it has less then 1/8" free
> travel before pressure is applied. Because there is virtually no free
> travel I cant push the rudder pedal all the way forward before the brake
> applies and the pressurized cylinder stops forward travel of the pedal. It
> is not rod adjustment . I disconnected the cylinder from the pedal and it
> is still tight. Also, disassembled the master cylinder-looks ok inside. Any
> ideas?
> Eric
Message 25
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| Subject: | Fly-in at Brown? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Hey does anyone know about a Kitfox fly-in at Brown next weekend? (16th) If
so, what are the specifics? Where is it posted?
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: 582 RPM Variation |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 06:02 PM 9/9/2006, you wrote:
>Make sure you don't have a slipping clutch like Don S.
>had a while back. His was worse, but yours could be
>just starting.
Any idea how you check this?
>Next guess is a lose timing adjustment. My old 2
>cycle would handle a mixture problem better than a
>timing problem.
I assume you mean that the pick-ups are loose on their screws. I have to
pull the back of the engine apart to look at these, don't I?
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
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| Subject: | 7A baggage area and door. |
Does anyone have plans for the baggage door on the series 7A? I got my
kit not long before Skystar went under and never got any plans or
materials to fill the framed opening in the side of the extended baggage
area.
Thanks!
Wade Greaves
Oregon City, OR
Message 28
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| Subject: | Ethanol damage to fuel tanks ? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "parahawk" <alfi98596@yahoo.com>
I have read seveeral articles that the ethanol contained in modern auto gas can
damage fiberglass fuel tanks as it attacks the epoxy. There were several engine
failures on boats due to ruined tanks.
Does anybody know if this could affect the tanks in the Kitfox IV-1200
--------
Flying is the highest form of life on earth.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=60721#60721
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