Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:53 AM - Re: Carb sockets (Jimmie Blackwell)
2. 02:18 AM - Re: Adverse yaw my bad explaination... (Michel Verheughe)
3. 04:24 AM - Re: Alodine spar (Bob Unternaehrer)
4. 05:12 AM - Ref: carb sockets (Larry Martin)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Buying a KitFox: When folding the wings, how do you brace (Noel Loveys)
6. 06:57 AM - Re: Alodine spar (Noel Loveys)
7. 07:11 AM - Re: Adverse yaw my bad explaination... (Noel Loveys)
8. 08:16 AM - Re: Carb sockets (Richard Rabbers)
9. 08:40 AM - KitFox Rudder Authority (Nick Scholtes)
10. 09:02 AM - Re: Alodine spar (Dave G.)
11. 09:17 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (flier)
12. 09:37 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (Guy Buchanan)
13. 09:58 AM - Re: Buying a KitFox: When folding the wings, how do you brace (dcsfoto)
14. 10:02 AM - Re: Annual on Kitfox III (dcsfoto)
15. 10:04 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (flier)
16. 10:05 AM - Re: Adverse yaw my bad explaination... (Michael Gibbs)
17. 10:19 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (John Oakley)
18. 10:34 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (Michel Verheughe)
19. 11:16 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (Fox5flyer)
20. 11:37 AM - (FLIER@sbcglobal.net)
21. 11:45 AM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (Noel Loveys)
22. 12:21 PM - Rudder Authority (Nick Scholtes)
23. 12:23 PM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (Guy Buchanan)
24. 12:32 PM - Desert Fox Fly-In (Guy Buchanan)
25. 02:29 PM - Re: Rudder Authority (flier)
26. 03:17 PM - Re: Alodine spar (John Anderson)
27. 03:32 PM - Re: Desert Fox Fly-In (Lowell Fitt)
28. 03:35 PM - Re: Alodine spar (John Anderson)
29. 04:24 PM - The next Kitfox adventure?? (Ben-PA)
30. 04:32 PM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (kirk hull)
31. 05:49 PM - Re: Desert Fox Fly-In (Guy Buchanan)
32. 05:58 PM - Re: KitFox Rudder Authority (john perry)
33. 07:16 PM - Re: Rudder Authorityand adverse yaw (Malcolmbru@aol.com)
34. 07:24 PM - Michigan Kitfoxers...or Mich. pilots in general (Lynn Matteson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Carb sockets |
JBM Industries, Kent, OHIO
330-678-9537
Kaufjm@aol.com wrote: Sorry I missed the address for the USA made Rotax carb
replacement sockets. Thanks.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Adverse yaw my bad explaination... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Hello Dave, this is very interesting reading, thank you very much.
On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:35 AM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> The CG must be ahead of center of side area ....
Indeed, it makes sense. And it also reminds me of the yachting design
of the leading of the center of effort (forces by the sails) to the
center of lateral plane (wet surface). A properly balanced sailboat
will be slightly weather helm (turning into the wind) when no rudder is
applied, so that it will eventually come to a stop. The opposite,
turning downwind, would be very dangerous.
> Now placing the CG way ahead of center of sidearea takes away from
> rudder authority.
Aha, I understand! A very yaw-stable plane is ... hard to turn. It
makes sense. Thank you for educating me, Dave. Another day with
something new learnt.
Cheers,
Michel
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine spar |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Alodine is a Chemical etch and only requires contact and time to get the job
done. That being said, I know others believe it is a "corrosion inhibitor",
I believe that is wishful thinking. None of the tech sheets make any such
claims that I've seen. It is simply an etch for improved paint adhesion and
not much more if anything. Dupont recommends the acid wash first then the
alodine. Alodine has been on there long enough and your acid prep was good
enough when it turns the metal a dark yellow. Self etching epoxy primers
do the same thing in one step. That's what I use now. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:49 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
> I am looking at corrosion resistance on My new spars. I have some alodine
> from the local auto parts store. Clearly the instructions assume I will
> simply slosh some of this back and forth inside the tube. Other
instructions
> I have read about alodine seem to want some fairly aggressive scrubbing
> first. How have you done it? Thanks.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Ref: carb sockets |
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a KitFox: When folding the wings, how do you |
brace
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
I always wrap a bungee chord with large plastic hooks on it around the
flaperons... Thanks to these lists I haven't experienced a wing opening in
transit.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Richard Rabbers
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:32 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Buying a KitFox: When folding the
> wings, how do you brace
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers"
> <rira1950@yahoo.com>
>
>
> > Tail tow braces - You already found those. They connect
> from the bottom VS
> > leading edge to the rear strut wing attachment bracket and
> keep the wing
> > from rotating.
>
>
> Warning based on experience!!
> Add redundency of some sort to the tail (wing) bracing,
> safety wire, short leash, etc.
> ............ imagine looking in the rear view mirror and
> watching a wing unfold (on your trailered Kitfox)..... at night!
>
> It was, more or less OK (far from ideal) until I exited the
> road, slowed, the angle of the road increased slightly.
>
> Thank the Gnomes there were no poles along side before I was
> able to slowly come to a stop!
>
> This happened on my trip home after purchase. I felt very lucky!
>
> --------
> Richard in SW Michigan
> Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65498#65498
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Scrub and Alumiprep first until water will sheet off the part. (water brake
test) rinse and immediately alodine. In a nutshell that's how I did it.
Noel
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G.
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:19 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
>
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
> I am looking at corrosion resistance on My new spars. I have
> some alodine
> from the local auto parts store. Clearly the instructions
> assume I will
> simply slosh some of this back and forth inside the tube.
> Other instructions
> I have read about alodine seem to want some fairly aggressive
> scrubbing
> first. How have you done it? Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Adverse yaw my bad explaination... |
Please! Talk about what happens when you add floats and a ventral fin.
Noel
Still to fly the 'Fox on wheels or skis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Aerobatics@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Adverse yaw my bad explaination...
In a message dated 10/3/2006 4:12:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
michel@online.no writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 3, 2006, at 9:43 PM, Aerobatics@aol.com wrote:
> There is a benefit of the forward aerodynamic center, that makes for a
> VERY effective rudder
This is very interesting, Dave, unfortunately I don't understand what
"forward aerodynamic center" is. Could you explain, please? Thanks in
advance.
Michel
PS: I also have gap-sealed rudder.
do not archive
An arrow keeps straight because of fins on one end and a weight at
another.
Center of mass ahead of center of area. There is an optimum position
for
best flight of an arrow.... with that in mind.... If you were to look
at
a side view of your plane including wheels spinner etc, there is a
center
of side area . A very simple, yet very effective way of finding that
center
is to cut a cardboard outline of your plane and find where it balances
and
poof.... center of side area.. Now like your CG for your wing the
same
applies to side area. The CG must be ahead of center of side area ....
and by how much determines strongly on your yaw stability.... which
has an
effect on your planes ability to dampen a yaw displacement.... (which
could
have been initiated by adverse yaw from ailerons)
Now placing the CG way ahead of center of side area takes away from
rudder
authority. So we must look at where the CG will be for the wing and
design
the "side" accordingly. Note that the rudder and the KF2 is small, but
VERY
effective, because the Center of side area and CG are close... yet in
the
KF5 the rudder is much larger, but ... well you know the rest!
That' is why moving CG forward on you older model KF helps in
Yaw...........
We wont even talk about what happens when you add floats!
Best,
Dave
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Carb sockets |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Richard Rabbers" <rira1950@yahoo.com>
They advertise on barnstormers.com
JBM INDUSTRIES Kent, OH USA Telephone: 330-678-9537 Fax: 330-678-4367
E-mail Jbmindustries(at)aol.com
Include "Carb Socket" in subject line.
Kent, Ohio 44240 USA Jbmindustries(at)aol.com
--------
Richard in SW Michigan
Model 1 / 618 - full-lotus floats (restoration)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65736#65736
Message 9
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| Subject: | KitFox Rudder Authority |
Guy,
Thank you very much with the great reply. You asked where I am located,
I'm in Illiniois, about 70 miles SW of Chicago.
I really appreciate you comparing the flight characteristics to another
airplane, something I can relate to. This type of response is very
useful, much better than the "My feet are faster than yours, and if
you're not man enough to fly a tailwheel, then you're a wuss" type of
replies that seem to be so popular! I am very familiar with the Super
Decathlon. If the Model IV flies like a Super Decathlon, then I have no
problem with it at all.
The problem I have is that the one-and-only KitFox that I have flown,
did not handle like a Decathlon at all. It handled like a, well, I
don't know what it handled like. Let me describe: Firstly, the whole
"you've got to use the rudders on a tailwheel airplane" thing really
refers to it's ground handling. And, the KitFox I flew handled superbly
on the ground, felt like a Cub. But, in the air, it was a totally
different animal. In the air, it was untameable. It just simply wasn't
any fun at all. What would happen is, I would get it straight-and-level
and coordinated, and then a minor thermal (nothing even noteworthy)
would come by, and all of a sudden the ball was slammed all the way to
one side. A light tap on opposite rudder, and now the ball was slammed
to the other side. 20 seconds of wild oscillations back-and-forth
finally got the ball somewhat centered again, only to start the process
over again on the next thermal. I have time in a Bonanza V-tail, which
was famous for the "Bonanza Boogie", where the nose would oscillate
side-to-side in turbulence. The KitFox that I flew was WAY worse than
any Bonanza ever could be.
So, I guess, after hearing alot of these responses, my question is now
different. My question now goes like this: Is the KitFox I flew
normal, or is it worse than the average KitFox? This particular plane
was ground-looped and repaired twice. Is there a possibility it is
somehow bent, or rigged incorrectly? Is it's handling characteristic of
the IV-1050, and is the IV-1200 better? I'm sure I could be a "hotshot
tailwheel pilot" and tough-it-out, but it flew so crappy that I just
didn't see where it was any fun.
Any further advice would be appreciated!
Best,
Nick
>Time: 08:18:56 AM PST US
>From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Buying a KitFox, First Question: Handling of IV-1050
>vs. Handling of IV-1200
>
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 09:16 AM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
>
>
>>I was very "unimpressed" with how the IV-1050 handled in yaw, it sure
>>seems to lack yaw stability.
>>
>>
>
>My IV has very good authority to the rudder; has adverse yaw roughly
>equivalent to a Decathlon, (much more than a 172,) and has a "dead band" in
>the middle where it will fly sideways +/- 2 degrees of yaw. I am a neophyte
>and have had no trouble flying straight or landing in what I consider
>"challenging" conditions.
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine spar |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer"
> <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
>
> Alodine is a Chemical etch and only requires contact and time to get the
> job
> done. That being said, I know others believe it is a "corrosion
> inhibitor",
> I believe that is wishful thinking. None of the tech sheets make any such
> claims that I've seen. It is simply an etch for improved paint adhesion
> and
> not much more if anything. Dupont recommends the acid wash first then the
> alodine. Alodine has been on there long enough and your acid prep was
> good
> enough when it turns the metal a dark yellow. Self etching epoxy primers
> do the same thing in one step. That's what I use now. Bob U.
Perhaps I'll try your way Bob. However I already checked about alodine
providing corrosion protection because I had been made aware of the fact
that it might not provide protection. It appears that not all Alodine is the
same and that it is also known as a chromate conversion process which will
increase corrosion protection to a very large degree. It all seems to depend
on which product you have.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Hey Nick,
Kitfox rudder control is pretty much required all the
time on the ground or in the air. In smooth stable
air no prob -- hands and feet off when trimmed. In
thermals or wind you're making rudder adjustments as
well as pitch and roll most of the time.
A Kitfox is flown like a sports car rather than a
sedan. It takes more attention but that's why
they're fun.
What you describe is typical of folks who have not
spent a lot of time in light short-coupled fabric
taildraggers.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: Nick Scholtes <Nick@Scholtes1.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: KitFox Rudder Authority
>Guy,
>
>Thank you very much with the great reply. You asked
where I am located,
>I'm in Illiniois, about 70 miles SW of Chicago.
>
>I really appreciate you comparing the flight
characteristics to another
>airplane, something I can relate to. This type of
response is very
>useful, much better than the "My feet are faster
than yours, and if
>you're not man enough to fly a tailwheel, then
you're a wuss" type of
>replies that seem to be so popular! I am very
familiar with the Super
>Decathlon. If the Model IV flies like a Super
Decathlon, then I have no
>problem with it at all.
>
>The problem I have is that the one-and-only KitFox
that I have flown,
>did not handle like a Decathlon at all. It handled
like a, well, I
>don't know what it handled like. Let me describe:
Firstly, the whole
>"you've got to use the rudders on a tailwheel
airplane" thing really
>refers to it's ground handling. And, the KitFox I
flew handled superbly
>on the ground, felt like a Cub. But, in the air, it
was a totally
>different animal. In the air, it was untameable.
It just simply wasn't
>any fun at all. What would happen is, I would get
it straight-and-level
>and coordinated, and then a minor thermal (nothing
even noteworthy)
>would come by, and all of a sudden the ball was
slammed all the way to
>one side. A light tap on opposite rudder, and now
the ball was slammed
>to the other side. 20 seconds of wild oscillations
back-and-forth
>finally got the ball somewhat centered again, only
to start the process
>over again on the next thermal. I have time in a
Bonanza V-tail, which
>was famous for the "Bonanza Boogie", where the nose
would oscillate
>side-to-side in turbulence. The KitFox that I flew
was WAY worse than
>any Bonanza ever could be.
>
>So, I guess, after hearing alot of these responses,
my question is now
>different. My question now goes like this: Is the
KitFox I flew
>normal, or is it worse than the average KitFox? This
particular plane
>was ground-looped and repaired twice. Is there a
possibility it is
>somehow bent, or rigged incorrectly? Is it's
handling characteristic of
>the IV-1050, and is the IV-1200 better? I'm sure I
could be a "hotshot
>tailwheel pilot" and tough-it-out, but it flew so
crappy that I just
>didn't see where it was any fun.
>
>Any further advice would be appreciated!
>
>Best,
>
>Nick
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 08:39 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>Thank you very much with the great reply. You asked where I am located,
>I'm in Illiniois, about 70 miles SW of Chicago.
You're welcome, but I can't be of much help, since I'm in San Diego. Some
other listers may be in the area though.
>If the Model IV flies like a Super Decathlon, then I have no problem with
>it at all.
Sorry. I was being very specific at to adverse yaw only. My Kitfox doesn't
fly much like a Decathlon otherwise. Using automotive comparisons the
Kitfox is a Lotus 7, the Decathlon a light truck, and the Bonanza a BMW 5
series. My experience with the two indicate that the Kitfox has much
lighter control forces in all axes, much higher roll rate, somewhat higher
yaw rate, and similar pitch rate. Couple this with a lighter wing loading
and some days you literally dance your way across the sky. (I fly in all
VFR conditions. I think turbulence is fun.) Of course, this dance is
conducted only with the fingers and toes, never arms and legs.
I do think, however, that if you had no problem with the Decathlon, you'll
have no problem with a Kitfox IV. Indeed the only problem you'll have is
getting that SEG off your face. (I did all my tailwheel training in a
Decathlon.)
>The KitFox that I flew was WAY worse than any Bonanza ever could be.
No, this doesn't describe my IV. Mine tracks very nicely as long as your
feet are on the pedals, even in turbulence. It just doesn't center very
well. You can be as much as one ball off and feel nothing in the pedals.
(My butt's not attuned to it yet, either.) Other IV's with the thick rudder
"option" do center.
>I'm sure I could be a "hotshot tailwheel pilot" and tough-it-out, but it
>flew so crappy that I just didn't see where it was any fun.
Others will have to help you with the comparisons, but "crappy" doesn't
describe my IV. Be advised, though, that different people define "crappy"
quite differently. I absolutely loath the Cessna 172. It's like driving a
Mercedes 240D. Slow, unresponsive, mushy. Yet I know people who just LOVE
their 172's. I just scratch my head. Prior to the Kitfox my love was an
F33A Bonanza: muscular, responsive; a goes-where-you-want-it-to-go kind of
airplane. The controls are well balanced, with suitable forces and enough
authority to handle extreme conditions. I also love the Cessna 152. It
responds very much like my IV, and nothing like a 172. The Decathlon was
OK, but I thought the rudder forces were much too high; out of proportion
to the aileron and elevator forces.
Hope it helps!
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Buying a KitFox: When folding the wings, how do you brace |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dcsfoto" <david@kelm.com>
if you dont brace the fwd spar you can get some rib damage,that is what I have
been told
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65761#65761
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Annual on Kitfox III |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dcsfoto" <david@kelm.com>
talk to the EAA and your FAA office.
you can go to a class and get a repairmans certificate to do the inspection on
a light sport airplane. The MIII con be operated as a light sport.
you might be able to change the certificate to experimental light sport
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65763#65763
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
Good description Guy!
--- Original Message ---
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KitFox Rudder Authority
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan
<bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 08:39 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>>Thank you very much with the great reply. You
asked where I am located,
>>I'm in Illiniois, about 70 miles SW of Chicago.
>
>You're welcome, but I can't be of much help, since
I'm in San Diego. Some
>other listers may be in the area though.
>
>>If the Model IV flies like a Super Decathlon, then
I have no problem with
>>it at all.
>
>Sorry. I was being very specific at to adverse yaw
only. My Kitfox doesn't
>fly much like a Decathlon otherwise. Using
automotive comparisons the
>Kitfox is a Lotus 7, the Decathlon a light truck,
and the Bonanza a BMW 5
>series. My experience with the two indicate that the
Kitfox has much
>lighter control forces in all axes, much higher roll
rate, somewhat higher
>yaw rate, and similar pitch rate. Couple this with a
lighter wing loading
>and some days you literally dance your way across
the sky. (I fly in all
>VFR conditions. I think turbulence is fun.) Of
course, this dance is
>conducted only with the fingers and toes, never arms
and legs.
>
>I do think, however, that if you had no problem with
the Decathlon, you'll
>have no problem with a Kitfox IV. Indeed the only
problem you'll have is
>getting that SEG off your face. (I did all my
tailwheel training in a
>Decathlon.)
>
>>The KitFox that I flew was WAY worse than any
Bonanza ever could be.
>
>No, this doesn't describe my IV. Mine tracks very
nicely as long as your
>feet are on the pedals, even in turbulence. It just
doesn't center very
>well. You can be as much as one ball off and feel
nothing in the pedals.
>(My butt's not attuned to it yet, either.) Other
IV's with the thick rudder
>"option" do center.
>
>>I'm sure I could be a "hotshot tailwheel pilot" and
tough-it-out, but it
>>flew so crappy that I just didn't see where it was
any fun.
>
>Others will have to help you with the comparisons,
but "crappy" doesn't
>describe my IV. Be advised, though, that different
people define "crappy"
>quite differently. I absolutely loath the Cessna
172. It's like driving a
>Mercedes 240D. Slow, unresponsive, mushy. Yet I know
people who just LOVE
>their 172's. I just scratch my head. Prior to the
Kitfox my love was an
>F33A Bonanza: muscular, responsive; a goes-where-you-
want-it-to-go kind of
>airplane. The controls are well balanced, with
suitable forces and enough
>authority to handle extreme conditions. I also love
the Cessna 152. It
>responds very much like my IV, and nothing like a
172. The Decathlon was
>OK, but I thought the rudder forces were much too
high; out of proportion
>to the aileron and elevator forces.
>
>Hope it helps!
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly
to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>_-
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Subscriptions page,
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Adverse yaw my bad explaination... |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Dave sez:
>The CG must be ahead of center of side area...
I think you are referring to the "center of pressure". Having the
center of gravity forward of the center of pressure is what produces
aerodynamic stability.
Mike G.
N728KF
Message 17
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| Subject: | KitFox Rudder Authority |
characteristic of the IV-1050, and is the IV-1200 better?
The 1200 has a tail that is 8 inches taller than the 1050 and does handle a
bunch different.
John Oakley
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
On Oct 4, 2006, at 7:15 PM, flier wrote:
> In thermals or wind you're making rudder adjustments as
> well as pitch and roll most of the time.
So, it's not just me! :-)
What I was wondering is, how much is it necessary to rectify the flight
attitude when in turbulence. The longest I have been flying non-stop is
three hours. In a normal summer day along the coast, the wet maritime
air goes up to nice cumulus, creating thermals. One wing falls a bit,
then the other, the tail goes one side, then the other. Still a rookie,
I feel I have to correct with the stick and rudder. It is tiresome with
time. But is it necessary? How do you, guys, fly in turbulence?
Cheers,
Michel
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@i-star.com>
Just let it wiggle Michel. By now you probably don't even need to think
about the corrections. When I had my M2 several times I turned the stick
over to experienced pilots and predictably they were all over the sky, but
after a bit of time they settled down and stopped over correcting so much.
Even at best, the I, II, and III are wiggly in turbulence. It's the nature
of the beast.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KitFox Rudder Authority
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
>
> On Oct 4, 2006, at 7:15 PM, flier wrote:
> > In thermals or wind you're making rudder adjustments as
> > well as pitch and roll most of the time.
>
> So, it's not just me! :-)
> What I was wondering is, how much is it necessary to rectify the flight
> attitude when in turbulence. The longest I have been flying non-stop is
> three hours. In a normal summer day along the coast, the wet maritime
> air goes up to nice cumulus, creating thermals. One wing falls a bit,
> then the other, the tail goes one side, then the other. Still a rookie,
> I feel I have to correct with the stick and rudder. It is tiresome with
> time. But is it necessary? How do you, guys, fly in turbulence?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel
>
>
Message 20
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--> Kitfox-List message posted by: FLIER@sbcglobal.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | KitFox Rudder Authority |
The floats on my 'Fox (Mod III-A) may have a pendulum effect that helps
keep
thing under control. I have made coordinated turns with banks
approaching
60deg with no problems. I find it easier to land than a Super Cub on
floats but it doesn't have the visceral sound that the bigger four
stroke
engine gives.
I have yet to spin... I haven't been high enough for a safe recovery
and
I'm not so sure I want to with floats on. The altitude, or lack of it
has
kept me from stalling, except of course when landing.
When landing the Cub I did have a bit of a bad habit of always touching
my
right float first. My float instructor kept telling me to use the
rudder
pedals. I don't have that problem in the 'Fox.
On floats the plane is more manoeuvrable, easier to fly and much more
fun
than the C172 I trained on. there is a bit of adverse yaw... Probably
slightly more than the C172 I did notice before installing a small trim
tab
on the rudder it was a lot more difficult to keep things straight and I
was
consistently on the right rudder pedal in straight and level flight.
The
slightest relaxing of my right foot would cause a good left yaw. As I
said
a small trim tab has cured that.
One of these days I may get around to finding out what those funny round
things are for.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nick
Scholtes
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: KitFox Rudder Authority
Guy,
Thank you very much with the great reply. You asked where I am located,
I'm
in Illiniois, about 70 miles SW of Chicago.
I really appreciate you comparing the flight characteristics to another
airplane, something I can relate to. This type of response is very
useful,
much better than the "My feet are faster than yours, and if you're not
man
enough to fly a tailwheel, then you're a wuss" type of replies that seem
to
be so popular! I am very familiar with the Super Decathlon. If the
Model
IV flies like a Super Decathlon, then I have no problem with it at all.
The problem I have is that the one-and-only KitFox that I have flown,
did
not handle like a Decathlon at all. It handled like a, well, I don't
know
what it handled like. Let me describe: Firstly, the whole "you've got
to
use the rudders on a tailwheel airplane" thing really refers to it's
ground
handling. And, the KitFox I flew handled superbly on the ground, felt
like
a Cub. But, in the air, it was a totally different animal. In the air,
it
was untameable. It just simply wasn't any fun at all. What would
happen
is, I would get it straight-and-level and coordinated, and then a minor
thermal (nothing even noteworthy) would come by, and all of a sudden the
ball was slammed all the way to one side. A light tap on opposite
rudder,
and now the ball was slammed to the other side. 20 seconds of wild
oscillations back-and-forth finally got the ball somewhat centered
again,
only to start the process over again on the next thermal. I have time
in a
Bonanza V-tail, which was famous for the "Bonanza Boogie", where the
nose
would oscillate side-to-side in turbulence. The KitFox that I flew was
WAY
worse than any Bonanza ever could be.
So, I guess, after hearing alot of these responses, my question is now
different. My question now goes like this: Is the KitFox I flew
normal, or
is it worse than the average KitFox? This particular plane was
ground-looped
and repaired twice. Is there a possibility it is somehow bent, or
rigged
incorrectly? Is it's handling characteristic of the IV-1050, and is the
IV-1200 better? I'm sure I could be a "hotshot tailwheel pilot" and
tough-it-out, but it flew so crappy that I just didn't see where it was
any
fun.
Any further advice would be appreciated!
Best,
Nick
Time: 08:18:56 AM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <mailto:bnn@nethere.com> <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Buying a KitFox, First Question: Handling of
IV-1050
vs. Handling of IV-1200
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan
<mailto:bnn@nethere.com>
<bnn@nethere.com>
At 09:16 AM 10/2/2006, you wrote:
I was very "unimpressed" with how the IV-1050 handled in yaw, it sure
seems to lack yaw stability.
My IV has very good authority to the rudder; has adverse yaw roughly
equivalent to a Decathlon, (much more than a 172,) and has a "dead band"
in
the middle where it will fly sideways +/- 2 degrees of yaw. I am a
neophyte
and have had no trouble flying straight or landing in what I consider
"challenging" conditions.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Rudder Authority |
Ted and Guy,
Thank you both, as well as everyone else, for EXCELLENT responses!
Ted wrote:
Kitfox rudder control is pretty much required all the time on the ground
or in the air. In smooth stable air no prob -- hands and feet off when
trimmed. In thermals or wind you're making rudder adjustments as well as
pitch and roll most of the time. A Kitfox is flown like a sports car
rather than a sedan. It takes more attention but that's why they're fun.
What you describe is typical of folks who have not spent a lot of time
in light short-coupled fabric taildraggers.
Ted, I've got alot of time in the Citabria and the Decathlon and even a
C-150-TD, but zero time in a KitFox (actually, I've now got 0.9 hours in
one!). Would you consider these "light, short-coupled fabric
taildraggers"? I guess I was expecting the KitFox to perform alot like
these, but it didn't, and maybe my problem is just a mismatch between my
expectations and reality. What I'm trying to figure out is whether I
should adjust my expectations, or whether that particular airplane is an
anomaly.
Guy wrote:
Mine tracks very nicely as long as your feet are on the pedals, even in
turbulence. It just doesn't center very well. You can be as much as one
ball off and feel nothing in the pedals. (My butt's not attuned to it
yet, either.) Other IV's with the thick rudder "option" do center.
I understand your description of "centering" and "tracking". There is a
C-150 that I fly alot that doesn't "center" very well, as you describe
you can be sitting there and your "butt-ometer" is saying everything is
fine, but you look at the ball and you're one ball off-center. But,
that airplane is easy to handle, and it "tracks" well, meaning that it
kinda' stays where you put it, just a touch of pedal after you look at
the ball and all is well. The KitFox that I flew neither "centered"
well, nor "tracked" well. It was just all over the place, all of the
time. As a matter of fact, on one approach that I did, the owner said,
"see how well it comes down when you're slipping it to a landing?" He
was right, it was doing a great slip. Problem was, I was trying to fly
it straight!
I just need to fly more KitFoxes to do some comparisons.
So, I'll change my tactic. Instead of asking questions, I just need
some stick and rudder time, so I'll ask this:
Who out there has a Model IV-1200 that I can take for a ride? I'll pay
handsomely for the opportunity. The closer to Chicago the better! Any
takers?
Thanks everybody!
Nick
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 10:33 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>It is tiresome with
>time. But is it necessary? How do you, guys, fly in turbulence?
I tend to correct pitch immediately; the 582 quickly loads up or the EGT
peaks. I let the vertical stab handle yaw, but keep my feet on the pedals.
(There's much less yaw resistance with your feet on the floor.) I only
correct roll and heading when I absolutely have to, (meaning: the plane's
going to slide off into a spiral,) and use rudder in concert. As a lifelong
sailor I only mind the motion when I bounce my head off the skylight! :'(
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Desert Fox Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
All,
The Desert Fox site says their fly-in is in 22 days. Unfortunately
the site has been stripped to minimums and there's no additional
information. Has the Desert Fox site moved? Is there a fly-in coming up?
Does anyone know where I might find additional information?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "flier" <FLIER@sbcglobal.net>
The 'Fox is lighter and more spirited than any of the
below. I've flown them all and the Kitfox is more
responsive and as a result can require more attention.
Regards,
Ted
--- Original Message ---
From: Nick Scholtes <Nick@Scholtes1.com>
list@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder Authority
>Ted and Guy,
>
>Thank you both, as well as everyone else, for
EXCELLENT responses!
>
>Ted wrote:
>
>Kitfox rudder control is pretty much required all
the time on the ground
>or in the air. In smooth stable air no prob -- hands
and feet off when
>trimmed. In thermals or wind you're making rudder
adjustments as well as
>pitch and roll most of the time. A Kitfox is flown
like a sports car
>rather than a sedan. It takes more attention but
that's why they're fun.
>What you describe is typical of folks who have not
spent a lot of time
>in light short-coupled fabric taildraggers.
>
>
>Ted, I've got alot of time in the Citabria and the
Decathlon and even a
>C-150-TD, but zero time in a KitFox (actually, I've
now got 0.9 hours in
>one!). Would you consider these "light, short-
coupled fabric
>taildraggers"? I guess I was expecting the KitFox
to perform alot like
>these, but it didn't, and maybe my problem is just a
mismatch between my
>expectations and reality. What I'm trying to figure
out is whether I
>should adjust my expectations, or whether that
particular airplane is an
>anomaly.
>
>Guy wrote:
>
>Mine tracks very nicely as long as your feet are on
the pedals, even in
>turbulence. It just doesn't center very well. You
can be as much as one
>ball off and feel nothing in the pedals. (My butt's
not attuned to it
>yet, either.) Other IV's with the thick
rudder "option" do center.
>
>I understand your description of "centering"
and "tracking". There is a
>C-150 that I fly alot that doesn't "center" very
well, as you describe
>you can be sitting there and your "butt-ometer" is
saying everything is
>fine, but you look at the ball and you're one ball
off-center. But,
>that airplane is easy to handle, and it "tracks"
well, meaning that it
>kinda' stays where you put it, just a touch of pedal
after you look at
>the ball and all is well. The KitFox that I flew
neither "centered"
>well, nor "tracked" well. It was just all over the
place, all of the
>time. As a matter of fact, on one approach that I
did, the owner said,
>"see how well it comes down when you're slipping it
to a landing?" He
>was right, it was doing a great slip. Problem was,
I was trying to fly
>it straight!
>
>I just need to fly more KitFoxes to do some
comparisons.
>
>So, I'll change my tactic. Instead of asking
questions, I just need
>some stick and rudder time, so I'll ask this:
>
>Who out there has a Model IV-1200 that I can take
for a ride? I'll pay
>handsomely for the opportunity. The closer to
Chicago the better! Any
>takers?
>
>Thanks everybody!
>
>Nick
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine spar |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
I am told by one of our aviation technical staff that in laymens terms it's
a neutralizing coating, sort of satisfies the surface neutrons desire to
look for another (oxidizing) brother neutron. "Corrosion inhibitor", well
its debatable, again he said if undisturbed, yes. Look at the many alloy
alodined components that are stored for years before use with no corrosion
showing, but one small scratch and it will corrode . The paint over top of
raw aluminum alloy is not a corrosion inhibitor, its just a coating, (some
etch coatings may be) but by alodining the combination will offer more
pertinent protection.
From: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Alodine is a Chemical etch and only requires contact and time to get the job
done. That being said, I know others believe it is a "corrosion inhibitor",
I believe that is wishful thinking. None of the tech sheets make any such
claims that I've seen. It is simply an etch for improved paint adhesion and
not much more if anything. Dupont recommends the acid wash first then the
alodine. Alodine has been on there long enough and your acid prep was good
enough when it turns the metal a dark yellow. Self etching epoxy primers
do the same thing in one step. That's what I use now. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:49 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
>I am looking at corrosion resistance on My new spars. I have some alodine
>from the local auto parts store. Clearly the instructions assume I will
>simply slosh some of this back and forth inside the tube. Other
instructions
>I have read about alodine seem to want some fairly aggressive scrubbing
>first. How have you done it? Thanks.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Desert Fox Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
The Desert Fox Fly-in has been postponed with a new date in March.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Desert Fox Fly-In
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
> All,
> The Desert Fox site says their fly-in is in 22 days. Unfortunately
> the site has been stripped to minimums and there's no additional
> information. Has the Desert Fox site moved? Is there a fly-in coming up?
> Does anyone know where I might find additional information?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Alodine spar |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Anderson" <janderson412@hotmail.com>
Sorry, I meant permanent protection....
I am told by one of our aviation technical staff that in laymens terms it's
a neutralizing coating, sort of satisfies the surface neutrons desire to
look for another (oxidizing) brother neutron. "Corrosion inhibitor", well
its debatable, again he said if undisturbed, yes. Look at the many alloy
alodined components that are stored for years before use with no corrosion
showing, but one small scratch and it will corrode . The paint over top of
raw aluminum alloy is not a corrosion inhibitor, its just a coating, (some
etch coatings may be) but by alodining the combination will offer more
permanent protection.
From: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Unternaehrer" <shilocom@mcmsys.com>
Alodine is a Chemical etch and only requires contact and time to get the job
done. That being said, I know others believe it is a "corrosion inhibitor",
I believe that is wishful thinking. None of the tech sheets make any such
claims that I've seen. It is simply an etch for improved paint adhesion and
not much more if anything. Dupont recommends the acid wash first then the
alodine. Alodine has been on there long enough and your acid prep was good
enough when it turns the metal a dark yellow. Self etching epoxy primers
do the same thing in one step. That's what I use now. Bob U.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:49 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Alodine spar
>--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Dave G." <occom@ns.sympatico.ca>
>
>I am looking at corrosion resistance on My new spars. I have some alodine
>from the local auto parts store. Clearly the instructions assume I will
>simply slosh some of this back and forth inside the tube. Other
instructions
>I have read about alodine seem to want some fairly aggressive scrubbing
>first. How have you done it? Thanks.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
_________________________________________________________________
Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
Message 29
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| Subject: | The next Kitfox adventure?? |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Ben-PA" <ben@gmpexpress.net>
http://airjourney.com/?fuseaction=journeys.itinerary&id=15
I am not associated with this group. I found the link posted on a Yahoo group.
Ben
Model 5
EJ-22
--------
Sign up on the Kitfox Frappr Map:
http://www.frappr.com/kitfox
You can see where fellow Kitfoxers live and pictures of their planes. Be sure to
post some pictures of you, your plane, or share the scenery of the Kitfox world.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65848#65848
Message 30
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| Subject: | KitFox Rudder Authority |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
That's why I installed seat belts
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KitFox Rudder Authority
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 10:33 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>It is tiresome with
>time. But is it necessary? How do you, guys, fly in turbulence?
I tend to correct pitch immediately; the 582 quickly loads up or the EGT
peaks. I let the vertical stab handle yaw, but keep my feet on the pedals.
(There's much less yaw resistance with your feet on the floor.) I only
correct roll and heading when I absolutely have to, (meaning: the plane's
going to slide off into a spiral,) and use rudder in concert. As a lifelong
sailor I only mind the motion when I bounce my head off the skylight! :'(
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Desert Fox Fly-In |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 03:30 PM 10/4/2006, you wrote:
>The Desert Fox Fly-in has been postponed with a new date in March.
>
>Lowell
Thanks Lowell.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: KitFox Rudder Authority |
NICK my kitfox is a model 2 and has the small rudder and vertical
stabilizer. The plane has never been damaged . When flying in thermals
or wind gusts it is no problem at all . just a little up and down and
the normal for most small GA aircraft in keeping on the given course. I
would think the one you flew might be bent somewhere or it could be was
never right to begin with ?. If you are ever in or around Lawton
Oklahoma would be more than glad to take you up and let you fly the
lady.
Sorry about my earlier post did not mean to sound to bad lol .
I have flown several foxes and they all flew fine .
Take care fly safe fly low fly slow fly fun fly KITFOX
John Perry
kitofx 2 N718PD
582/ subbie soon
Hot PINK Ivo inflight
TD/ Straight floats
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Authorityand adverse yaw |
My first flight in my kf2 was solo but I had 2 hr. taxi time. I lasted 3
min and landed only a little bounce but it seemed to be all over the place in
the air. the 2ed time I flew it the right door opened and I was all over the
place till I landed. It got really windy in there a couple of times. now I
have 15 hr. and 50 landings. and I feal much moor confident now . I find
with full flaps I have a little less rudder authority. when I did the weight
and balance I found I put my CG a little forword of the middle of its center
of CG range by adding the E box and larger battery. wouldent it be cool if
I put myCG closer to my senter of side area by adding the 582 w/ e box
and larger battery, still learning michigan kit foxer malcolm
Message 34
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| Subject: | Michigan Kitfoxers...or Mich. pilots in general |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
I just returned from our Chapter 304 EAA meeting, and a guest speaker
announced that he has put together a list of all private airstrips in
the State of Michigan. It should be ready for publication in about a
month. He has been compiling it for over two years. He is meeting with
his lawyer to iron out all the legal aspects of such a publication. It
will sell for $20. I told him to put me on the list. He said that he
contacted hundreds of strip owners, and they were very willing to be
added to his list, with very few exceptions. He said that the current
Michigan Airport Directory lists about 200+ airports, and his list will
provide about 500+ private landing strips. He even had yours, Deke.
Hell, he's even got Howland Field on there! He also said that around
Napoleon and Brooklyn there are 20-some strips....and added "I don't
know how you guys keep from running into one another."
When it's done, the list will show nearest town, owners name and phone
number, lat and long, length of runway(s), slope (if any), turf or
paved, etc. I'll let you all know when he is ready to sell the
directory.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
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